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What is it specific to EVE that prevents 50v50 fights due to lag?

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Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:21:00 - [1] I blundered into a fight between two large(ish) fleets today, and EVE slowed down to the point where hitting escape wouldn't even bring up a menu. It just flat out froze. Needless to say, after several minutes of waiting, then restarting EVE, I woke up dead. Or in another body on the opposite side of the universe, anyway. Following forum discussions, I had always gotten the impression that "lag" as we know it was just a situation in which the client was running fine, but the Overview or Local or targeting were unresponsive. Not so! The client itself essentially died. A couple things to mention: This does not happen in other games. I hesitate to bring WoW into this, but my experiences with that game (before quitting in disgust) included 40v40 fights in which the characters were wearing custom armor, tabards, etc. EVE has no such customization. A Raven is a Raven is a Raven. Since upgrading to Trinity, I haven't gone back and turned off turret/missile effects. "AHA!," says the experienced EVE player. "No wonder! You suck." But why should I have to turn off the visuals of a game for it to not crash when presented with an enemy fleet in a fleet-warfare based game? Again, the WoW example, but there's fireballs and whatnot flying every which way. "Your computer sucks." Not necessarily. It's getting a couple years old but runs everything up to a "large fleet engagement" perfectly fine. Anyway. What is it about EVE that makes this happen? My roommate, who also plays the game, says it's because the client loads "everything on the grid" graphically, so that if I so choose I can click the little eyeball icon and take a good detailed look at the Mothership 200km away. If this is the case, is it necessary? The majority of the combat I encounter in EVE is made up of various small colored icons, and typically the only thing graphically displayed on my screen is my own ship and a nebula in the background, unless an enemy ship comes jogging up to within 5km of my ship, close enough to be recognized as a shiny spaceship. Latency lag I can deal with, at least I can spin my ship in a circle or type in chat while I wait for my EVE client to figure out who's in system with me, but this "omg too many ships FREEZE" thing seems to make the game, well...unplayable. Just a small rant, but can anyone enlighten me as to the specifics of the situation?
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:24:00 - [2] 50 v 50 shouldn't lag unless your computer can't handle the graphics rendering and sound (turn off sound, effects, turret effects, etc. ...). I've pretty much never experienced server-side type lag for battles that small.
Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:26:00 - [3] Originally by: Hannobaal 50 v 50 shouldn't lag unless your computer can't handle the graphics rendering and sound (turn off sound, effects, turret effects, etc. ...). I've pretty much never experienced server-side type lag for battles that small. I suppose it could have been a larger fight. My EVE client froze with nothing but names starting with A displayed in Local.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:30:00 - [4] I would love an "icons only" client setting. I couldn't care less about how epic the fight might look like, TBH. If it means almost instant client-side "load" once the data from the server is here, heck yeah. With all due respect, but I spit on eyecandy and blame CCP for shoving it down our throats even when we repeatedly tell them we ALSO want the option of playing a dull-looking but extremely responsive client. It's not like they'd have to ADD anything... just remove a lot of stuff to get the "minimalist" client. __ CSM candidates - quick reference cards (NEW: spreadsheet) Or just vote for LaVista Vista or Leandro Salazar like I did.
Kristoffer Amarr Invicta.	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:42:00 - [5] Despite what people tell you, the client freezing up and you getting 1 FPS every 2 minutes is the clients fault and not your own hardware. I am on a very crappy dell, and get the same slide show / screen freeze that my corpm8s with jacked up PCs get. The performance should not even be comparable.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:45:00 - [6] drones. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
Shakuul Caldari Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:05:00 - [7] So with a 50v50 fleet battle it IS in fact your computer causing the lag, but with 75v75 or 100v100+ the servers choke so even a text-only client wouldn't help?
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:15:00 - [8] It helps a lot to turn off brackets for drones. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Doctor Mabuse	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:29:00 - [9] When jumping in to a big fleet fight, try running it all with the solar system map up. Target and fight as normal from the overview, no icons/brackets drones etc., in fact you can't get much more minimalist...
JAQUE ALERA	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:41:00 - [10] Anyone going to actually answer his question as to why this happens as opposed to other mmorpgs? I suspect it's the single "supercomputer" CCP is so proud of. I too have lost ships to lag and am frequently amazed at how accepting the player base is of this "feature". Eve is an amazing game and let's hope there is a solution to this problem and CCP implements it. 5 years of complaints seem to offer a discouraging answer to that question.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:46:00 - [11] Edited by: DubanFP on 12/05/2008 23:51:12 Originally by: Hannobaal 50 v 50 shouldn't lag unless your computer can't handle the graphics rendering and sound (turn off sound, effects, turret effects, etc. ...). I've pretty much never experienced server-side type lag for battles that small. I agree with that. 50 V 50s run beautifully if you turn down the graphics a bit. 200 v 200 fights are pretty bad, but you really can't go into one of those expecting anything less from any server in the world. Also anyone running the premium client shouldn't expect to run large battles well. It's just naive to think otherswise. That's the entire point of having 2 clients in the first place. I run the Classic graphics on a system that can't even handle the premium client and it runs great. P.S. Even if my comp could handle the premium client I'd still use the classic one. Gameplay over graphics, period. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Shakka Zulu	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:58:00 - [12] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 12/05/2008 23:51:12 Gameplay over graphics, period. /thread? I think so.
Morphel Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Anon Forumalt This does not happen in other games. I hesitate to bring WoW into this, but my experiences with that game (before quitting in disgust) included 40v40 fights in which the characters were wearing custom armor, tabards, etc. EVE has no such customization. A Raven is a Raven is a Raven. This does happen in other games too, I also play LOTRO and the PvP in there can come to a 1-2 fps slide show if you got you GFX setting to high for PvP. In LOTRO you had the same problems, client was set to show all the pretty little GFX effects etc.. which destroy the FPS when you got 100 people trying to kill each other in one area. with a few clicks of the options you can get the FPS from 1-2 to 20-30 FPS with ease. With client side tweaking in Eve you should also get it to a exceptable FPS as long as you got a resonable GFX card. .
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:04:00 - [14] if i get 5 or more ships down on me i always lose my pod & if i end up in a worp bubble my mods seem too crap out from doing anything. just lost a steath bomber and only got 3mil back for it.. what it cost 17mil. i dont care about my ship but i do my pod, i dont use jump clones so if i lose a old clone i morn him.. i am getting sick of losing my clone this way and sick of losing them too worp bubbles. its just seems too easy for them too catch it laged out like that or whatever. i wish they had faster escape pods or tuffer ones that i can buy or even skills too help my pod too eject farther out from the ship.. its just starting too real suck...
Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Shakka Zulu Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 12/05/2008 23:51:12 Gameplay over graphics, period. /thread? I think so. I think not. A game should function out of the box, not after EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE GRAPHICAL EFFECT IS TURNED OFF (up to but not including 100 participants in a battle. Beyond that you're screwed no matter what." Originally by: Morphel Originally by: Anon Forumalt This does not happen in other games. I hesitate to bring WoW into this, but my experiences with that game (before quitting in disgust) included 40v40 fights in which the characters were wearing custom armor, tabards, etc. EVE has no such customization. A Raven is a Raven is a Raven. This does happen in other games too, I also play LOTRO and the PvP in there can come to a 1-2 fps slide show if you got you GFX setting to high for PvP. In LOTRO you had the same problems, client was set to show all the pretty little GFX effects etc.. which destroy the FPS when you got 100 people trying to kill each other in one area. with a few clicks of the options you can get the FPS from 1-2 to 20-30 FPS with ease. With client side tweaking in Eve you should also get it to a exceptable FPS as long as you got a resonable GFX card. . I'm not talking about 1-2 FPS here. I could deal with 1 FPS, or even .1 FPS, as it would give me the ability to click things. I'm talking about a total client freeze. Again, the point of this is not to ask "geez fellas what can I do??" Obviously, turning all the graphics off helps. Turning off drone brackets (or whatever) helps. Getting a brand new top of the line computer helps. But the extent to which the client freezes during a large fleet engagement is (in my experience) unique to EVE. My question is HOW and WHY. Does my client really load up the graphics for every ship on the grid, just in case I decide to click the 'look' button? If we assume that the client does this, is it really necessary? Many games have a "draw distance," imagine trying to play any of those games if upon entering, the game tried to load EVERY SINGLE GRAPHIC IN THE GAMEWORLD simultaneously. Seems silly.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:13:00 - [16] Edited by: DubanFP on 13/05/2008 00:14:46 Originally by: Anon Forumalt Originally by: Shakka Zulu Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 12/05/2008 23:51:12 Gameplay over graphics, period. /thread? I think so. I think not. A game should function out of the box, not after EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE GRAPHICAL EFFECT IS TURNED OFF (up to but not including 100 participants in a battle. Beyond that you're screwed no matter what." The irony in this replay is he wouldn't be complaining in the first place if the Devs weren't so nice as to create the premium graphics update, and then give out for free. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
JAQUE ALERA	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:20:00 - [17] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 13/05/2008 00:14:46 Originally by: Anon Forumalt Originally by: Shakka Zulu Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 12/05/2008 23:51:12 Gameplay over graphics, period. /thread? I think so. I think not. A game should function out of the box, not after EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE GRAPHICAL EFFECT IS TURNED OFF (up to but not including 100 participants in a battle. Beyond that you're screwed no matter what." The irony in this replay is he wouldn't be complaining in the first place if the Devs weren't so nice as to create the premium graphics update, and then give out for free. The irony is we shouldn't complain about the game being unplayable because we don't pay for the upgrade?
Guillame Herschel Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Anon Forumalt But the extent to which the client freezes during a large fleet engagement is (in my experience) unique to EVE. It's never happened to me. But that data point doesn't fit your theory, so feel free to throw it out. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:26:00 - [19] Edited by: DubanFP on 13/05/2008 00:29:18 Originally by: JAQUE ALERA The irony is we shouldn't complain about the game being unplayable because we don't pay for the upgrade? It's not unplayable. It's unplayable to the people too stupid to use the graphics options the Devs included for this very reason. You can't complain when you're handed the the option to fix the very problem you're complaining about. Do you want the devs to force feed you stupid or something? And don't say tweaked graphics won't run because I have a Geforce 5500FX "about 5 years old" and have been in 200+ v 200+ fights, bob V IAC & LV V TCF, with minimum client lag. There was some server lag, but the client was fine simply because I actually did the smart thing and tweaked my graphics to run in such situations. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:29:00 - [20] sloppy python ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:30:00 - [21] If this 50 vs 50 lagout fight happend in 0.0 then blame the fact that you only have a half handful of servers running all of 0.0. Somewhere in the 25+ systems that your single cpu node was servicing another fleet/pos fight was happening that gobbled up all the resorces hence your laggy experience. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Ragnar Danneskjuld Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:35:00 - [22] Originally by: JAQUE ALERA Anyone going to actually answer his question as to why this happens as opposed to other mmorpgs? I suspect it's the single "supercomputer" CCP is so proud of. I too have lost ships to lag and am frequently amazed at how accepting the player base is of this "feature". Eve is an amazing game and let's hope there is a solution to this problem and CCP implements it. 5 years of complaints seem to offer a discouraging answer to that question. The "Supercomputer" you are talking about is in most probable terms: a "farm" of .. my guess 80-100 machines. All top end servers and quite capable. I believe what you are seeing in the huge fleet fights is not server, nor client lag but DB lag. DB technologiy is far, far behind graphic and network tech these days. Just a guess though....
Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:37:00 - [23] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 13/05/2008 00:29:18 Originally by: JAQUE ALERA The irony is we shouldn't complain about the game being unplayable because we don't pay for the upgrade? It's not unplayable. It's unplayable to the people too stupid to use the graphics options the Devs included for this very reason. You can't complain when you're handed the the option to fix the very problem you're complaining about. Do you want the devs to force feed you stupid or something? And don't say tweaked graphics won't run because I have a Geforce 5500FX "about 5 years old" and have been in 200+ v 200+ fights, bob V IAC & LV V TCF, with minimum client lag. There was some server lag, but the client was fine simply because I actually did the smart thing and tweaked my graphics to run in such situations. If everyone chooses to make the smart (nay, the ONLY) decision and turn off EVERY POSSIBLE GRAPHICAL EFFECT (I cannot stress this enough. Not "slide the bar to its minimum, low point." No. Off. Dead. Gone completely.), why do the graphics exist? Can we not consider the possibility that this system is flawed? There are other ways to display graphics, and having the clients load the graphics of every single ship on the grid (an assumption that has not yet been answered) may be a problem. Perhaps this problem could be solved and you, I, and the rest of the EVE subscriber base could turn our graphical effects back on.
arbiter reformed	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:40:00 - [24] i think its unreasonable to asume games are one size fit al i run a top of the line 3.5 ghz dual card system and i still cant play all games perfectly without tweaking settings in fact, even i tone down settings on eve to make it more playable which is fine imo. ppl do this in all games i dont run crysis on the highest graphics settings my computer can take and expect it not to lag. and yes we do get server lag on eve but as long as u turn off simple things its acceptable considering we dont have to do the whole server jump thing from wow (img)http://www.newedenfederation.com/g2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=222&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=3a6c5f3b24af15bc969d5a415cd78229(/img)
Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Zeba If this 50 vs 50 lagout fight happend in 0.0 then blame the fact that you only have a half handful of servers running all of 0.0. Somewhere in the 25+ systems that your single cpu node was servicing another fleet/pos fight was happening that gobbled up all the resorces hence your laggy experience. In this instance, why can I not spin my ship in circles? Not that doing so would serve any particular purpose, but I can't imagine why my computer not receiving information (ship locations, etc) would cause it to freeze so badly that my character screen couldn't be opened up.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Anon Forumalt Originally by: Zeba If this 50 vs 50 lagout fight happend in 0.0 then blame the fact that you only have a half handful of servers running all of 0.0. Somewhere in the 25+ systems that your single cpu node was servicing another fleet/pos fight was happening that gobbled up all the resorces hence your laggy experience. In this instance, why can I not spin my ship in circles? Not that doing so would serve any particular purpose, but I can't imagine why my computer not receiving information (ship locations, etc) would cause it to freeze so badly that my character screen couldn't be opened up. If the node your on is maxed out on the i/o side then there is no way to get any login information hence your being stuck at the login screen or any other location really. Client with no updated info = unresponsive. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Skogen Gump	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:45:00 - [27] AFAIK nothing is specific to EVE; I've been in bigger fights and not had the latency you've experienced. Network bandwidth, PC customisation, Memory size, concurrent load all factor in to your issue. EVE != WoW don't forget :)
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:46:00 - [28] Edited by: DubanFP on 13/05/2008 00:55:44 Originally by: Anon Forumalt If everyone chooses to make the smart (nay, the ONLY) decision and turn off EVERY POSSIBLE GRAPHICAL EFFECT (I cannot stress this enough. Not "slide the bar to its minimum, low point." No. Off. Dead. Gone completely.), why do the graphics exist? Now as much as I know you're being sarcastic i'm going to agree seriously. I see no point in the extra graphics at all. I want to play the game for the content which is the smart thing to do. A lot of EVE players, myself included, don't care about the shinies. We enjoy the slow strategic pace of fights in EVE. As far as I'm concerned there are no extra graphics. However there is no harm in allowing them for the people who want to use them. So i'm not going to start going around complaining about something i'm givin the option not to use. Originally by: Anon Forumalt There are other ways to display graphics, and having the clients load the graphics of every single ship on the grid (an assumption that has not yet been answered) may be a problem. Perhaps this problem could be solved and you, I, and the rest of the EVE subscriber base could turn our graphical effects back on. That's just silly thinking. It would never work, player A would shoot player B and player B would never see player A. Not to mention any half decent fleet will call primaries. What do you do when the primary target isn't loaded for lag reasons. Sorry but you really have no clue what you're talking about. Bolding random words FTW!!!!! _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Dr Wellesley Burden of Mars	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:50:00 - [29] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Anon Forumalt There are other ways to display graphics, and having the clients load the graphics of every single ship on the grid (an assumption that has not yet been answered) may be a problem. Perhaps this problem could be solved and you, I, and the rest of the EVE subscriber base could turn our graphical effects back on. That's just silly thinking. It would never work, player A would shoot player B and player B would never see player A. Not to mention any half decent fleet will call primaries. What do you do when the primary target isn't loaded for lag reasons. Sorry but you really have no clue what you're talking about. He's talking about the graphical models, not the ship reference. //--< We like trees. We like trees. They're so green and ... BRANCHY!
Monkey Saturday SAS Elite Ops Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:51:00 - [30] 50V50? oh dear, laghole? RAM my friend, RAM.

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