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Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.05.15 22:30:00 - [1] The selling point of faction warfare (ready access to small/medium fleet PvP) is vrey attractive; however, specifics about the implimentation may ruin its practicality. My largest concern is expressed in the settements of this thread: hopefully at some point CCP will explain what counter messures they envision for limiting meta-gaming abuse of FW. My second concern is the preservation of options within the game. It sounds like Faction Warfare is going to tie in extensively with faction standings. A key problem/limitation with the current faction standings mechanics is that they have a point of no return. Will Faction Warefare require you to permently select a faction with which to ally yourself, or will an option to switch factions be maintained? It would seem likely that atleast initially, players would be able to switch factions with ease. However, the rumours indicate that as you work for a faction, you will slaughter your standings with the opposing faction. If this is the case, it presents a significant barrier of entry into Faction Warefare. Many, if not most, other game require your to choose your allignment at character creation or shortly there after. Eve for the most part presents a sandbox, in which you are always free to choose a new path if you want to persue it. Also in contrast to other games, Eve maintains commitments on the scale of months and years, where other games play out on the scale of days and weeks. With other games, changing your path/allignment often requires the creation of a new character, followed by weeks or (possibly months at most) of effort to build that character up to a competive level. As attractive as Faction Warfare sounds, I doubt that I would be willing to commit a +2 year old character to a faction if it ment that I would need to train up another +2 years to get an equally skilled character with access to the opposing faction should I change my mind on which faction I wish to work for. So, should Faction Warfare, effectively require I lifetime commitment to your initially choosen faction, or should an option to switch sides be retained? If an option to switch is maintained, how is it to be done, as swapping sides with the click of a button would be worse than not being able to switch at all?
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.15 22:41:00 - [2] Originally by: Ki Tarra The selling point of faction warfare (ready access to small/medium fleet PvP) is vrey attractive; however, specifics about the implimentation may ruin its practicality. My largest concern is expressed in the settements of this thread: hopefully at some point CCP will explain what counter messures they envision for limiting meta-gaming abuse of FW. My second concern is the preservation of options within the game. It sounds like Faction Warfare is going to tie in extensively with faction standings. A key problem/limitation with the current faction standings mechanics is that they have a point of no return. Will Faction Warefare require you to permently select a faction with which to ally yourself, or will an option to switch factions be maintained? It would seem likely that atleast initially, players would be able to switch factions with ease. However, the rumours indicate that as you work for a faction, you will slaughter your standings with the opposing faction. If this is the case, it presents a significant barrier of entry into Faction Warefare. Many, if not most, other game require your to choose your allignment at character creation or shortly there after. Eve for the most part presents a sandbox, in which you are always free to choose a new path if you want to persue it. Also in contrast to other games, Eve maintains commitments on the scale of months and years, where other games play out on the scale of days and weeks. With other games, changing your path/allignment often requires the creation of a new character, followed by weeks or (possibly months at most) of effort to build that character up to a competive level. As attractive as Faction Warfare sounds, I doubt that I would be willing to commit a +2 year old character to a faction if it ment that I would need to train up another +2 years to get an equally skilled character with access to the opposing faction should I change my mind on which faction I wish to work for. So, should Faction Warfare, effectively require I lifetime commitment to your initially choosen faction, or should an option to switch sides be retained? If an option to switch is maintained, how is it to be done, as swapping sides with the click of a button would be worse than not being able to switch at all? I think your concern is exaggerated until we have a hands on model--right now eve is a game with the pretense of intense and abundant pvp but in reality most people, even five years after launch are either disinterested or risk averse to really fulfill that promise. The problem is much like an complex game, with a game that has so much to do and so many interrelated elements, you need to by either very curious to suceed or the game needs to spend alot of time showing you what is possible and incentivizing actions. Up until now there was a tremendous gap between having a social corp who did really nothing and a small motivated and meta game savvy group of pirates and 0.0 players. FW is a small step toward bridging that and I don't think comitting to a faction at the expense of another is too punishing. From CCPs persepective its more than just a symbolic faction icon you're working for, but a specific constellation with specific targets and very clear conditions. In a sense POS war tried this but really failed to engage people in a meaningful or sustained way. This is where the enthusiasm for FW comes in, a gameplay that should have been there from the start is coming in and reminding people why they play mmos in the first place, socializing but also the possibility of constructive (destructive) influence. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
th1rdeye	Posted - 2008.05.15 22:58:00 - [3] In response to OP, what you fear is the exact way it should function. While Eve must be less realistic than reality to provide more "sandbox", it must be somewhat similar to certain aspects of RL to remain viable and entertaining. To illustrate my point: You are a German soldier in WWII. You would effectively have poor standing with US/RUS/UK. If you tired of fighting for Germany, could you just switch sides and be welcomed by the Allies? This seems to be the type of scenario you want available.

CCP Hammer	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:28:00 - [4] Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?

Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:33:00 - [5] Originally by: th1rdeye You are a German soldier in WWII. You would effectively have poor standing with US/RUS/UK. If you tired of fighting for Germany, could you just switch sides and be welcomed by the Allies? That is one way to look at it. Up until the middle/end of the industrial revolution it was practical for a mercenary to change alligence with comparitive ease. A large part of the conotation of mercenary implies that whimsical level of attachment. So then the question is: Are we simple citizens, pawns of the empires? Or Are we immortal demi-gods, free to seize the destiny that is rightfully ours?
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:35:00 - [6] Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back. I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings. But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life.
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:37:00 - [7] Originally by: Ki Tarra ... So then the question is: Are we simple citizens, pawns of the empires? Or Are we immortal demi-gods, free to seize the destiny that is rightfully ours? I choose #3: Killers who like the adrenaline rush of combat - no matter who the opponent is.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back. I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings. But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life. but you can recover. get a buddy, have him start a mission, share the rewards. plus if its a lvl 5 mission you'll be killing faction ships along the way. However this will end you up with -10 with that faction.

CCP Hammer	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back. I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings. But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life. I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.

Bagoon Gallente Mortis Incarnatus	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:49:00 - [10] Edited by: Bagoon on 15/05/2008 23:54:07 Edited by: Bagoon on 15/05/2008 23:53:36 Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back. all endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. This is my main concern as well. The game has been going on for a long time where faction standings and what race you started out with means nothing as there has been no incentive to get high standing with one or another. Except for POSes, but for 99% of pvpers thats really not a concern. With FW coming out it suddenly means something and your at a point of no return. Also be aware making pvpers grind missions for faction standing prolly won't work so well if the whole intent is to get people to fight. Possible idea would be put the power in the hands of CEO of corps. Make it where the faction level is based upon the CEO's connections not an average, that way people can join up and be 'vouched' for by the CEO to the faction. Could tie that chars actions to the CEO's standing, so it would fubar him if the person turned (ect ect).

Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:50:00 - [11] @Hammer: awesome! It doesn't have to be easy -- in fact, it should be weeks of pain and drudgery IMO -- but I think there should always be a way out of any faction hole. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:57:00 - [12] Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? In short, no. The way standings work right now for PvE it is very WoWish faction grinding. Does anybody have fond memories of that? No. Not even wow players. Its not fun. It sucks. In fact, getting into the FW corp should take completing a mission. Go kill for your allegiance, kill for us, die for us. Wanna change sides? Same deal, go kill of us and die for us, you're in. Now as far as hopping sides quickly, have it take a day to leave a FW corp just like with a real player run corp. Plus take a hint from other games that have done this before, having players switch teams isn't always a bad thing. If you lock your players into a long grind in order to switch sides, they're less likely to do so for the sake of a fair fight. "Gee, we outnumber them all by 10 to 1, maybe we should switch sides to even it out? Nah, it would take 3 weeks of faction grinding to do that... carry on!"
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.15 23:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Marlenus @Hammer: awesome! It doesn't have to be easy -- in fact, it should be weeks of pain and drudgery IMO -- but I think there should always be a way out of any faction hole. Oh god do you even know what you're suggesting? Weeks of pain and drudgery? Faction. Grinds. Suck. They. Are. NOT! Fun.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:00:00 - [14] but you can get out... it's just painful...
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:02:00 - [15] Yeah lets just create a huge ass PvE barrier of entry FOR PVP.
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:05:00 - [16] Yeah, I know what I'm suggesting. The idea that you pick a faction and you're stuck with it (loyal to it, solid in your hostility to its enemies) makes good sense to me. And enforcing that with faction system only makes sense. But this is a sandbox, and irrevocable choices aren't very much fun. There should be a way to change your mind, but it should be expensive. In a game, expensive pretty much always equals grind, one way or another. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:05:00 - [17] Originally by: LetsDoThis Yeah lets just create a huge ass PvE barrier of entry FOR PVP. ok then go around shooting the faction you want lower standings for. for instance, you want to work for the ammar but your standings are -10 with ammar. so you run around shooting minmatar players, and BAM your PvPing for your faction standings. best part about eve is your get the standings incease or loss in PvP the second you open fire so you wouldn't have to win jsut attacking everything that moves.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:13:00 - [18] Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:15:32 Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL. There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all. This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh". Honestly, this thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Marlenus In a game, expensive pretty much always equals grind, one way or another. Yeah and EvE shouldn't think outside the box on this one. Basically game companies never get better at things, if the crap they are currently doing wrong is being tolerated/accepted by the player majority. The thing is, the player majority doesn't include the people that DON'T tolerate it, cause they already left. Except for the stubborn mofos like me, who continue to put up with the same stupid crap over and over again, cause I like another part of the game that is done right. Faction grinds are not good for anything. Ever. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go apply at blizzard, you'd probly get hired immediately for seeing "the bigger picture".
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Jakke Logan The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all. I actually think that's sort of the point. The devs obviously think PVP is the coolest part of the game. It was clear from the chat that they are pained, personally and at a deep gut level, by all the NON hard core players who don't experience much PVP. They deeply want to share the joy of it (their perspective) and that's what this expansion is for. Now, how is that going to do anything for the deep 0.0 people who presumably already fully enjoy the alleged coolness that is PVP? ------------------ Ironfleet.com

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:20:00 - [21] Originally by: Jakke Logan Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:16:37 Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL. There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all. This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh". This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate. welcome to the point, 0.0 allaince hated the idea of factional warfare effecting allainces, so CCP listened and made it not effect them.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:21:00 - [22] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Jakke Logan Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:16:37 Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL. There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all. This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh". This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate. welcome to the point, 0.0 allaince hated the idea of factional warfare effecting allainces, so CCP listened and made it not effect them. How about alliances being able to align with the faction of their choice? [-FOAD] Corp CEO
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Jakke Logan Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Jakke Logan Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:16:37 Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL. There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all. This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh". This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate. welcome to the point, 0.0 allaince hated the idea of factional warfare effecting allainces, so CCP listened and made it not effect them. How about alliances being able to align with the faction of their choice? well they CAN allready, they just can't help with timers and such. nothing is stopping the players form being a thrid wheel in factional warfare.
Mioelnir Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:25:00 - [24] Originally by: CCP Hammer I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. The hole is actually a lot higher. It starts at -5 unmodified. If you go beyond that, you end up with below -2 to the faction and are therefor denied access to even L1Q-20 agents. Then there is the band from -5 to -8.8 unmodified, in which you cannot reverse your standings, but avoid being shot at by faction navies with diplomacy 5. From -8.8 to -10, faction navy always hunts you and there is nothing you can do. Being -7.64 to minmatar (right at the diplomacy 4 border ) from pirate missions, I think going beyond -5 is a commitment one should take. Volunteer fanatics simply don't switch sides. Drafted soldiers may, but it isn't an auto-opt-in system. The process to recover from these standings should be so painful, you won't do it again after the first time. So no advanced diplomacy skill that allows you to hop factions at will once you trained it please.
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:49:00 - [25] Originally by: Mioelnir Edited by: Mioelnir on 16/05/2008 00:27:48 Originally by: CCP Hammer I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. The hole starts actually a lot higher. It starts at -5 unmodified. If you go beyond that, you end up with below -2 to the faction and are therefor denied access to even L1Q-20 agents. Then there is the band from -5 to -8.8 unmodified, in which you cannot reverse your standings, but avoid being shot at by faction navies with diplomacy 5. From -8.8 to -10, faction navy always hunts you and there is nothing you can do. Being -7.64 to minmatar (right at the diplomacy 4 border ) from pirate missions, I think going beyond -5 is a commitment one should take. Volunteer fanatics simply don't switch sides. Drafted soldiers may, but it isn't an auto-opt-in system. Even more reason to not have FW affect your personal standings. Originally by: Mioelnir The process to recover from these standings should be so painful, you won't do it again after the first time. So no advanced diplomacy skill that allows you to hop factions at will once you trained it please. Why? Really, why? What is a good reason.. why is it a good idea to pidgeonhole a character into a bunch of painful grinds if they feel like fighting for another side? Is it because it used to makes sense from an RP standpoint? Well the RP standpoint has changed anyways, might as well use the opportunity to make it so that factional warfare doesn't affect your standings. Lets address this issue for a minute. You're all ignoring it. What do you want to happen when you inevitably have one faction badly outnumbered by another faction? Ignore RP Lets pretend that reversing your faction hit being "so painful that you won't do it again after the first time" doesn't matter. What would you want to happen if the sides are so lopsided that it isn't fun, so lopsided that FW essentially becomes 0.0 blob politics, where one side is always outnumbered. Would you want people to change sides, to even out the teams more? If so, a huge faction grind is not the way to encourage that... Now think about what has changed today. Caldari and Gallente at war. The factions are at war, and yesterday they weren't. Killing the enemy faction in missions gave you a faction hit. But the factions weren't at war, you, the pilot, were commiting the offense, taking action on your own accord, not another faction/corporation. If you were to join a FW corp, that is at war with another faction, shouldn't you automatically have terrible standings in their sovereign space? Should doing your duty show negatively on your character's standings towards that faction? I don't think so. Its completely unrealistic. IRL it is understood that soldiers do their duty. Your actions are not taken personally if you are acting upon orders. Your actions are taken personally if you are acting on your own. Thats how it should be in FW. As long as you fight for your FW corp, you have terrible standings with the enemy, BUT your actions made against the FW corp's enemies shouldn't effect your personal standings with the enemy faction.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:51:00 - [26] Grinds are bad. If EVE is going to have a grind, at least introduce one that will let me gain skillpoints faster :) [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Soder Jucio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.16 00:51:00 - [27] Originally by: Jakke Logan Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL. There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all. This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate. you have your hours shooting at POSes, lagfree fleet battles, cynojammers, nanofleets and cloakers, we get FW. Fair deal i think
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:04:00 - [28] Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:07:24 Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:06:27 Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:05:01 Originally by: Soder Jucio Originally by: Jakke Logan Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL. There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all. This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate. you have your hours shooting at POSes, lagfree fleet battles, cynojammers, nanofleets and cloakers, we get FW. Fair deal i think But they are missing out on the true potential... Imagine if alliances could, by joining factions, help OUT the empire pvp'ers? Imagine if this naturally aligns empire players WITH alliances, thus giving them a logical path to INTERACTING with these alliances, and possibly joining them eventually? This smooths the transition from empire to 0.0 does it not? The fact that lowsec space will be able to change hands is a great thing... IF the alliances could get involved. Soon as you guys realize you are pirate fodder the whole FW system will fall into complete disuse. I already anticipate a "why aren't you all involved in faction warfare?!" Dev blog 2 months later just like the, "uh, why aren't you all using jump freighters?" blog... The answer will be the same... Because it was a good idea in concept, but not thought through well and poorly implemented. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Soren PAK	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:07:00 - [29] Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back. I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings. But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life. I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. Thanks for comming out of your hole and posting again ☠-->-->--
Mioelnir Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:09:00 - [30] Originally by: LetsDoThis Lets address this issue for a minute. You're all ignoring it. What do you want to happen when you inevitably have one faction badly outnumbered by another faction? The one faction badly outnumbers the other, will claim all the contested space, and the other will have to rally to get it back. Originally by: LetsDoThis Ignore RP Lets pretend that reversing your faction hit being "so painful that you won't do it again after the first time" doesn't matter. What would you want to happen if the sides are so lopsided that it isn't fun, so lopsided that FW essentially becomes 0.0 blob politics, where one side is always outnumbered. Would you want people to change sides, to even out the teams more? Hey guys, could 5 of you please switch sides, we're gaining an advantage here."Really, no clue if I should laugh or break out in tears. Something like that does not work unless we have an auto balancer in place at which point we could essentially implement real instances that don't let more than 20 people in. THAT is not Eve. Originally by: LetsDoThis If so, a huge faction grind is not the way to encourage that... I said painful, not huge. As a matter of fact, I suggested a while ago new agents in space for exactly that. Out in npc 0.0, requiring a 500m isk bribe and you need to complete a mission of the difficulty level around 'Audesder War Effort 8/8 - The Dreadnought Manufacturing Facility' and giving no rewards/tags/loot/isk/..., but this mission would upon completion reset your faction standing to -5.0 flat. You need a group ("other player that vouch for you to your new faction"), it's risky, it's expensive, and takes about an afternoon if you know what you are doing. You now have access to the normal agent system again. Originally by: LetsDoThis RL analogy Game mechanics that mimic real life too close are usually bad. Blahblah sandbox. You don't want to commit to a faction because you're afraid it might be the losing one. Just admit it, alt.



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