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Ki Tarra
Caldari
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:30:00 -
[1]
The selling point of faction warfare (ready access to small/medium fleet PvP) is vrey attractive; however, specifics about the implimentation may ruin its practicality.
My largest concern is expressed in the settements of this thread: hopefully at some point CCP will explain what counter messures they envision for limiting meta-gaming abuse of FW.
My second concern is the preservation of options within the game.
It sounds like Faction Warfare is going to tie in extensively with faction standings.
A key problem/limitation with the current faction standings mechanics is that they have a point of no return.
Will Faction Warefare require you to permently select a faction with which to ally yourself, or will an option to switch factions be maintained?
It would seem likely that atleast initially, players would be able to switch factions with ease. However, the rumours indicate that as you work for a faction, you will slaughter your standings with the opposing faction.
If this is the case, it presents a significant barrier of entry into Faction Warefare.
Many, if not most, other game require your to choose your allignment at character creation or shortly there after.
Eve for the most part presents a sandbox, in which you are always free to choose a new path if you want to persue it.
Also in contrast to other games, Eve maintains commitments on the scale of months and years, where other games play out on the scale of days and weeks.
With other games, changing your path/allignment often requires the creation of a new character, followed by weeks or (possibly months at most) of effort to build that character up to a competive level.
As attractive as Faction Warfare sounds, I doubt that I would be willing to commit a +2 year old character to a faction if it ment that I would need to train up another +2 years to get an equally skilled character with access to the opposing faction should I change my mind on which faction I wish to work for.
So, should Faction Warfare, effectively require I lifetime commitment to your initially choosen faction, or should an option to switch sides be retained? If an option to switch is maintained, how is it to be done, as swapping sides with the click of a button would be worse than not being able to switch at all?
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:41:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Ki Tarra
The selling point of faction warfare (ready access to small/medium fleet PvP) is vrey attractive; however, specifics about the implimentation may ruin its practicality.
My largest concern is expressed in the settements of this thread: hopefully at some point CCP will explain what counter messures they envision for limiting meta-gaming abuse of FW.
My second concern is the preservation of options within the game.
It sounds like Faction Warfare is going to tie in extensively with faction standings.
A key problem/limitation with the current faction standings mechanics is that they have a point of no return.
Will Faction Warefare require you to permently select a faction with which to ally yourself, or will an option to switch factions be maintained?
It would seem likely that atleast initially, players would be able to switch factions with ease. However, the rumours indicate that as you work for a faction, you will slaughter your standings with the opposing faction.
If this is the case, it presents a significant barrier of entry into Faction Warefare.
Many, if not most, other game require your to choose your allignment at character creation or shortly there after.
Eve for the most part presents a sandbox, in which you are always free to choose a new path if you want to persue it.
Also in contrast to other games, Eve maintains commitments on the scale of months and years, where other games play out on the scale of days and weeks.
With other games, changing your path/allignment often requires the creation of a new character, followed by weeks or (possibly months at most) of effort to build that character up to a competive level.
As attractive as Faction Warfare sounds, I doubt that I would be willing to commit a +2 year old character to a faction if it ment that I would need to train up another +2 years to get an equally skilled character with access to the opposing faction should I change my mind on which faction I wish to work for.
So, should Faction Warfare, effectively require I lifetime commitment to your initially choosen faction, or should an option to switch sides be retained? If an option to switch is maintained, how is it to be done, as swapping sides with the click of a button would be worse than not being able to switch at all?
I think your concern is exaggerated until we have a hands on model--right now eve is a game with the pretense of intense and abundant pvp but in reality most people, even five years after launch are either disinterested or risk averse to really fulfill that promise. The problem is much like an complex game, with a game that has so much to do and so many interrelated elements, you need to by either very curious to suceed or the game needs to spend alot of time showing you what is possible and incentivizing actions. Up until now there was a tremendous gap between having a social corp who did really nothing and a small motivated and meta game savvy group of pirates and 0.0 players.
FW is a small step toward bridging that and I don't think comitting to a faction at the expense of another is too punishing. From CCPs persepective its more than just a symbolic faction icon you're working for, but a specific constellation with specific targets and very clear conditions. In a sense POS war tried this but really failed to engage people in a meaningful or sustained way. This is where the enthusiasm for FW comes in, a gameplay that should have been there from the start is coming in and reminding people why they play mmos in the first place, socializing but also the possibility of constructive (destructive) influence.
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Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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th1rdeye
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Posted - 2008.05.15 22:58:00 -
[3]
In response to OP, what you fear is the exact way it should function. While Eve must be less realistic than reality to provide more "sandbox", it must be somewhat similar to certain aspects of RL to remain viable and entertaining. To illustrate my point:
You are a German soldier in WWII. You would effectively have poor standing with US/RUS/UK. If you tired of fighting for Germany, could you just switch sides and be welcomed by the Allies?
This seems to be the type of scenario you want available.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:28:00 -
[4]
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
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Ki Tarra
Caldari
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:33:00 -
[5]
Originally by: th1rdeye
You are a German soldier in WWII. You would effectively have poor standing with US/RUS/UK. If you tired of fighting for Germany, could you just switch sides and be welcomed by the Allies?
That is one way to look at it.
Up until the middle/end of the industrial revolution it was practical for a mercenary to change alligence with comparitive ease. A large part of the conotation of mercenary implies that whimsical level of attachment.
So then the question is:
Are we simple citizens, pawns of the empires?
Or
Are we immortal demi-gods, free to seize the destiny that is rightfully ours?
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Ki Tarra
Caldari
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back.
I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings.
But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life.
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Shadow Joy
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:37:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
...
So then the question is:
Are we simple citizens, pawns of the empires?
Or
Are we immortal demi-gods, free to seize the destiny that is rightfully ours?
I choose #3: Killers who like the adrenaline rush of combat - no matter who the opponent is.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back.
I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings.
But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life.
but you can recover.
get a buddy, have him start a mission, share the rewards. plus if its a lvl 5 mission you'll be killing faction ships along the way.
However this will end you up with -10 with that faction.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back.
I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings.
But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life.
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
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Bagoon
Gallente
Mortis Incarnatus
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:49:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Bagoon on 15/05/2008 23:54:07
Edited by: Bagoon on 15/05/2008 23:53:36
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back.
all endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
This is my main concern as well. The game has been going on for a long time where faction standings and what race you started out with means nothing as there has been no incentive to get high standing with one or another. Except for POSes, but for 99% of pvpers thats really not a concern. With FW coming out it suddenly means something and your at a point of no return. Also be aware making pvpers grind missions for faction standing prolly won't work so well if the whole intent is to get people to fight.
Possible idea would be put the power in the hands of CEO of corps. Make it where the faction level is based upon the CEO's connections not an average, that way people can join up and be 'vouched' for by the CEO to the faction. Could tie that chars actions to the CEO's standing, so it would fubar him if the person turned (ect ect).
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:50:00 -
[11]
@Hammer: awesome! It doesn't have to be easy -- in fact, it should be weeks of pain and drudgery IMO -- but I think there should always be a way out of any faction hole.
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Ironfleet.com |
LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
In short, no. The way standings work right now for PvE it is very WoWish faction grinding. Does anybody have fond memories of that? No. Not even wow players. Its not fun. It sucks.
In fact, getting into the FW corp should take completing a mission. Go kill for your allegiance, kill for us, die for us.
Wanna change sides? Same deal, go kill of us and die for us, you're in.
Now as far as hopping sides quickly, have it take a day to leave a FW corp just like with a real player run corp.
Plus take a hint from other games that have done this before, having players switch teams isn't always a bad thing. If you lock your players into a long grind in order to switch sides, they're less likely to do so for the sake of a fair fight.
"Gee, we outnumber them all by 10 to 1, maybe we should switch sides to even it out? Nah, it would take 3 weeks of faction grinding to do that... carry on!"
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LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.15 23:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Marlenus
@Hammer: awesome! It doesn't have to be easy -- in fact, it should be weeks of pain and drudgery IMO -- but I think there should always be a way out of any faction hole.
Oh god do you even know what you're suggesting? Weeks of pain and drudgery?
Faction.
Grinds.
Suck.
They.
Are.
NOT!
Fun.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:00:00 -
[14]
but you can get out...
it's just painful...
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LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:02:00 -
[15]
Yeah lets just create a huge ass PvE barrier of entry FOR PVP.
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:05:00 -
[16]
Yeah, I know what I'm suggesting.
The idea that you pick a faction and you're stuck with it (loyal to it, solid in your hostility to its enemies) makes good sense to me. And enforcing that with faction system only makes sense.
But this *is* a sandbox, and irrevocable choices aren't very much fun. There should be a way to change your mind, but it should be expensive.
In a game, expensive pretty much always equals grind, one way or another.
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Ironfleet.com |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: LetsDoThis
Yeah lets just create a huge ass PvE barrier of entry FOR PVP.
ok then go around shooting the faction you want lower standings for.
for instance, you want to work for the ammar but your standings are -10 with ammar.
so you run around shooting minmatar players, and BAM your PvPing for your faction standings.
best part about eve is your get the standings incease or loss in PvP the second you open fire so you wouldn't have to win jsut attacking everything that moves.
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Jakke Logan
Caldari
F Off And Die
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:13:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:15:32
Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL.
There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all.
This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh".
Honestly, this thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate.
[-FOAD] Corp CEO |
LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Marlenus
In a game, expensive pretty much always equals grind, one way or another.
Yeah and EvE shouldn't think outside the box on this one. Basically game companies never get better at things, if the crap they are currently doing wrong is being tolerated/accepted by the player majority.
The thing is, the player majority doesn't include the people that DON'T tolerate it, cause they already left. Except for the stubborn mofos like me, who continue to put up with the same stupid crap over and over again, cause I like another part of the game that is done right.
Faction grinds are not good for anything. Ever.
Anyone who thinks otherwise should go apply at blizzard, you'd probly get hired immediately for seeing "the bigger picture".
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jakke Logan
The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all.
I actually think that's sort of the point.
The devs obviously think PVP is the coolest part of the game. It was clear from the chat that they are pained, personally and at a deep gut level, by all the NON hard core players who don't experience much PVP. They deeply want to share the joy of it (their perspective) and that's what this expansion is for.
Now, how is that going to do anything for the deep 0.0 people who presumably already fully enjoy the alleged coolness that is PVP?
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Ironfleet.com |
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:16:37
Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL.
There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all.
This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh".
This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate.
welcome to the point, 0.0 allaince hated the idea of factional warfare effecting allainces, so CCP listened and made it not effect them.
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Jakke Logan
Caldari
F Off And Die
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:16:37
Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL.
There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all.
This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh".
This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate.
welcome to the point, 0.0 allaince hated the idea of factional warfare effecting allainces, so CCP listened and made it not effect them.
How about alliances being able to align with the faction of their choice?
[-FOAD] Corp CEO |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:16:37
Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL.
There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all.
This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh".
This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate.
welcome to the point, 0.0 allaince hated the idea of factional warfare effecting allainces, so CCP listened and made it not effect them.
How about alliances being able to align with the faction of their choice?
well they CAN allready, they just can't help with timers and such.
nothing is stopping the players form being a thrid wheel in factional warfare.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar
KULT Production
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
The hole is actually a lot higher.
It starts at -5 unmodified. If you go beyond that, you end up with below -2 to the faction and are therefor denied access to even L1Q-20 agents.
Then there is the band from -5 to -8.8 unmodified, in which you cannot reverse your standings, but avoid being shot at by faction navies with diplomacy 5.
From -8.8 to -10, faction navy always hunts you and there is nothing you can do.
Being -7.64 to minmatar (right at the diplomacy 4 border  ) from pirate missions, I think going beyond -5 is a commitment one should take. Volunteer fanatics simply don't switch sides. Drafted soldiers may, but it isn't an auto-opt-in system.
The process to recover from these standings should be so painful, you won't do it again after the first time. So no advanced diplomacy skill that allows you to hop factions at will once you trained it please.
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LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:49:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mioelnir
Edited by: Mioelnir on 16/05/2008 00:27:48
Originally by: CCP Hammer
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
The hole starts actually a lot higher.
It starts at -5 unmodified. If you go beyond that, you end up with below -2 to the faction and are therefor denied access to even L1Q-20 agents.
Then there is the band from -5 to -8.8 unmodified, in which you cannot reverse your standings, but avoid being shot at by faction navies with diplomacy 5.
From -8.8 to -10, faction navy always hunts you and there is nothing you can do.
Being -7.64 to minmatar (right at the diplomacy 4 border ) from pirate missions, I think going beyond -5 is a commitment one should take. Volunteer fanatics simply don't switch sides. Drafted soldiers may, but it isn't an auto-opt-in system.
Even more reason to not have FW affect your personal standings.
Originally by: Mioelnir
The process to recover from these standings should be so painful, you won't do it again after the first time. So no advanced diplomacy skill that allows you to hop factions at will once you trained it please.
Why? Really, why? What is a good reason.. why is it a good idea to pidgeonhole a character into a bunch of painful grinds if they feel like fighting for another side?
Is it because it used to makes sense from an RP standpoint?
Well the RP standpoint has changed anyways, might as well use the opportunity to make it so that factional warfare doesn't affect your standings.
Lets address this issue for a minute. You're all ignoring it.
What do you want to happen when you inevitably have one faction badly outnumbered by another faction?
Ignore RP Lets pretend that reversing your faction hit being "so painful that you won't do it again after the first time" doesn't matter.
What would you want to happen if the sides are so lopsided that it isn't fun, so lopsided that FW essentially becomes 0.0 blob politics, where one side is always outnumbered.
Would you want people to change sides, to even out the teams more?
If so, a huge faction grind is not the way to encourage that...
Now think about what has changed today. Caldari and Gallente at war. The factions are at war, and yesterday they weren't.
Killing the enemy faction in missions gave you a faction hit. But the factions weren't at war, you, the pilot, were commiting the offense, taking action on your own accord, not another faction/corporation.
If you were to join a FW corp, that is at war with another faction, shouldn't you automatically have terrible standings in their sovereign space? Should doing your duty show negatively on your character's standings towards that faction?
I don't think so. Its completely unrealistic. IRL it is understood that soldiers do their duty. Your actions are not taken personally if you are acting upon orders. Your actions are taken personally if you are acting on your own.
Thats how it should be in FW. As long as you fight for your FW corp, you have terrible standings with the enemy, BUT your actions made against the FW corp's enemies shouldn't effect your personal standings with the enemy faction.
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Jakke Logan
Caldari
F Off And Die
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:51:00 -
[26]
Grinds are bad.
If EVE is going to have a grind, at least introduce one that will let me gain skillpoints faster :)
[-FOAD] Corp CEO |
Soder Jucio
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.16 00:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL.
There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all.
This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate.
you have your hours shooting at POSes, lagfree fleet battles, cynojammers, nanofleets and cloakers, we get FW.
Fair deal i think
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Jakke Logan
Caldari
F Off And Die
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Posted - 2008.05.16 01:04:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:07:24
Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:06:27
Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:05:01
Originally by: Soder Jucio
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL.
There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all.
This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate.
you have your hours shooting at POSes, lagfree fleet battles, cynojammers, nanofleets and cloakers, we get FW.
Fair deal i think
But they are missing out on the true potential...
Imagine if alliances could, by joining factions, help OUT the empire pvp'ers?
Imagine if this naturally aligns empire players WITH alliances, thus giving them a logical path to INTERACTING with these alliances, and possibly joining them eventually?
This smooths the transition from empire to 0.0 does it not?
The fact that lowsec space will be able to change hands is a great thing... IF the alliances could get involved.
Soon as you guys realize you are pirate fodder the whole FW system will fall into complete disuse.
I already anticipate a "why aren't you all involved in faction warfare?!" Dev blog 2 months later just like the, "uh, why aren't you all using jump freighters?" blog...
The answer will be the same... Because it was a good idea in concept, but not thought through well and poorly implemented.
[-FOAD] Corp CEO |
Soren
PAK
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Posted - 2008.05.16 01:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back.
I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings.
But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life.
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
Thanks for comming out of your hole and posting again 
☠-->-->--
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Mioelnir
Minmatar
KULT Production
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.05.16 01:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: LetsDoThis
Lets address this issue for a minute. You're all ignoring it.
What do you want to happen when you inevitably have one faction badly outnumbered by another faction?
The one faction badly outnumbers the other, will claim all the contested space, and the other will have to rally to get it back.
Originally by: LetsDoThis
Ignore RP Lets pretend that reversing your faction hit being "so painful that you won't do it again after the first time" doesn't matter.
What would you want to happen if the sides are so lopsided that it isn't fun, so lopsided that FW essentially becomes 0.0 blob politics, where one side is always outnumbered.
Would you want people to change sides, to even out the teams more?
Hey guys, could 5 of you please switch sides, we're gaining an advantage here."Really, no clue if I should laugh or break out in tears.
Something like that does not work unless we have an auto balancer in place at which point we could essentially implement real instances that don't let more than 20 people in. THAT is not Eve.
Originally by: LetsDoThis
If so, a huge faction grind is not the way to encourage that...
I said painful, not huge.
As a matter of fact, I suggested a while ago new agents in space for exactly that.
Out in npc 0.0, requiring a 500m isk bribe and you need to complete a mission of the difficulty level around 'Audesder War Effort 8/8 - The Dreadnought Manufacturing Facility' and giving no rewards/tags/loot/isk/..., but this mission would upon completion reset your faction standing to -5.0 flat.
You need a group ("other player that vouch for you to your new faction"), it's risky, it's expensive, and takes about an afternoon if you know what you are doing.
You now have access to the normal agent system again.
Originally by: LetsDoThis
RL analogy
Game mechanics that mimic real life too close are usually bad.
Blahblah sandbox. You don't want to commit to a faction because you're afraid it might be the losing one. Just admit it, alt.
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LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.16 01:24:00 -
[31]
Edited by: LetsDoThis on 16/05/2008 01:33:06
Originally by: Mioelnir
Originally by: LetsDoThis
RL analogy
Game mechanics that mimic real life too close are usually bad.
I notice you dodged my asking for a good reason. But I'll answer this, cause im such a coward alt.
I only used an analogy in order to justify the mechanic idea. Other than that I really don't care, a wizard did it. But it turns out that its very easily to justify, so I did.
Quote:
Something like that does not work unless we have an auto balancer.
Works well in most games. In TF2 when theres no autobalancing all you have to say is "teams" if they are uneven and somebody will change sides to even them up. In eve the same thing would happen. Only a complete coward would enjoy blobbing an enemy like that. It isn't fun in TF2, it isn't fun in eve.
Quote:
You don't want to commit to a faction because you're afraid it might be the losing one. Just admit it, alt.
I've been playing an RvR game (its the only one out atm, not hard to guess) for 6 years. I've seen this problem, I know this problem well. If you support the player in their decision to better balance the sides, they'll do it. And if you don't, they wont. Then, if the problem ruins their fun, they find a better game.
Quote:
THAT is not Eve.
Alliance tournaments, and now factional warfare, beg to differ.
The 0.0 nano-blobbing and lowsec pirating are not the only supported forms of pvp anymore.
Also, this **** isn't even in game yet and you are so against not having a faction grind as if its been in the game for years. If there is a right time to argue against a faction grind entry barrier for PvP, its now.
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Momo chan
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Posted - 2008.05.16 03:06:00 -
[32]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back.
I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings.
But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life.
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
You know people have been wanting that for a long time because you know if you kill certain groups enough their is not a serious way to get your faction back up with pirates. Also you might look at the entire session timer for different gains because it means a lot of jumping into a system killing something and jumping to another and repeating so that you do not have to wait 15 mins. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.16 03:08:00 -
[33]
why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole?
am I wrong?
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.05.16 03:10:00 -
[34]
Originally by: MotherMoon
why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole?
am I wrong?
Because they have nothing bad to be said about it... they cant argue that you need to be able to get out of the -10 hole and such.
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.05.16 03:13:00 -
[35]
Well, it seems like you should be able to go from being in Amarr to being in Caldari. And when more factions are added in a later expansion, you'll have access to Khanid, Mordu's Legion, and Ammatar. And when pirate factions are added you can go to the ones your enemies hate (Angels, Serpentis). Isn't that enough choices?
I get that you want your in-game actions to be totally reversible without any pain, but I don't think your desire for that is reason enough to gimp what sounds like an awesome expansion.
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[insert signature here] |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.16 03:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Originally by: MotherMoon
why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole?
am I wrong?
Because they have nothing bad to be said about it... they cant argue that you need to be able to get out of the -10 hole and such.
no no my point about all you have to do is have your friend take a mission, help him with it, and then have him turn the mission in and share rewards... wouldn't that recover you?
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LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.16 03:22:00 -
[37]
I saw it, and I recognize that its possible.
But its still an absurd grind, and a problem that CCP needs to look into regardless.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.16 03:37:00 -
[38]
Originally by: LetsDoThis
I saw it, and I recognize that its possible.
But its still an absurd grind, and a problem that CCP needs to look into regardless.
ok that's fair, I just wanted to make sure my information was correct.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar
KULT Production
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.05.16 04:04:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Mioelnir on 16/05/2008 04:08:15
@MotherMoon:
Factions standing gains are not shared.
I could fly with a corpmate for Republic Fleet for months, I'd still end up at -7.64 faction, +9.9 with Republic Fleet and +10 to the agent. As all 3 have to be above -2 for an agent to give me missions, I won't get any myself.
With current mechanics, as soon as all friendlies of the target faction are below -5, it is a done deal. I can, for example, still fly for ORE, who are friendly to the Gallente/Minmatar block until I can fly for Gallente, switch over to them, and then finally Minmatar.
@LetsDoIt:
I think I already did. It is about commitment. Actions in Eve have consequences. I flew for a pirate organization against the Minmatar Republic. Not once, but a lot.
Why should they trust me ever again?
[Edit]
Typo
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Faife
Noctiscion
Twilight Trade Cartel
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Posted - 2008.05.16 04:25:00 -
[40]
last i checked i gain minmatar faction by shooting random amarr.
so there's that option. sorta like ratting for sec status.
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Lars Lodar
Induseng Enterprises
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.16 04:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back.
I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings.
But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life.
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
Freelancer style bribery! If carebears have anything, its isk.
Or a series of well written missions that would make your character a double agent by climbing through all the ranks to get close to high value targets in a rival faction for an assassination!
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LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.16 05:06:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Mioelnir
@LetsDoIt:
I think I already did. It is about commitment. Actions in Eve have consequences. I flew for a pirate organization against the Minmatar Republic. Not once, but a lot.
Why should they trust me ever again?
[Roleplay]
They should never trust you again, because you were acting on your own accord against the minmatar republic, thus your personal standings lowered.
Had you been in the amarr navy, following direct orders given to you by your commander, it would be understood that you were just fighting for your faction in a time of war. However, had you committed any atrocious warcrimes, that would have lowered your personal standings.
[/Roleplay]
Its justifiable. As I said, I honestly don't care, afaik a wizard did it.
Commitment. I don't want to marry a faction, I'll fight for one though.
I mean hell, look at 0.0 politics. Not many people get personal standings set from a major alliance. You have to do something bad, like pull a Tyraxx or Remedial. This is infinitely more justifiable than the way it is currently. Kill enemy battleship, faction likes you a little more. Kill a friendly battleship, faction likes you a little less. Wait.. what?
My main was once in goonfleet. My current corp does not like goonfleet, we are at war with them, and everyone else in eve for that matter. My being in goonfleet did not affect my personal relationship with the current corp. They did not review my application and say, "ooh, I hate goonfleet, you were once in goonfleet, I hate you!".
They didn't look at the killboards and say "you killed X many of our alliances ships, lemme calculate how much we hate you". Cause thats stupid and unrealistic. Had I done something outstanding like pull a massive corp theft on one of gf's enemies, THAT would get me personal standings, so to speak. That didnt happen. I was simply in an alliance following orders, and pretty much everyone in eve knows the deal.
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Ki Tarra
Caldari
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.16 14:34:00 -
[43]
Originally by: MotherMoon
for instance, you want to work for the ammar but your standings are -10 with ammar.
so you run around shooting minmatar players, and BAM your PvPing for your faction standings.
Originally by: MotherMoon
why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole?
am I wrong?
If the above is what you were refering to, then yes you are wrong, atleast under current mechanics.
Only standings increases will have derived effects. Standings loses will not have derived gains.
It was not always like that, but has been "fixed" to behave like that because of a history of standings exploits.
It was changed to prevent people from gaining faction standings by failing regular missions. That exploit was introduced when they made it so that failing regular mission gave a faction standings loss.
Regular missions were changed to have a faction standings loss for failure because of an exploit where by people would select more profitable missions by repeatedly declining less profitable ones, counting on their faction standings to maintain access to the agent even when they had butchered their corp and agent standings because of declining the missions.
I can find you the patch notes where that was changed if you need me to. Originally by: CCP Hammer
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
Thank you. 
If you need help on coming up with ideas on how to do it, I know that I have a few myself, and as always the rest of the community will be happy to voice theirs, regardless of if you want to hear them. 
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.05.16 14:38:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
It sounds like Faction Warfare is going to tie in extensively with faction standings.
A key problem/limitation with the current faction standings mechanics is that they have a point of no return.
Will Faction Warefare require you to permently select a faction with which to ally yourself, or will an option to switch factions be maintained?
The more actions in Eve that have consequences, the better.
It doesn't make much sense to me that people should be able to freely switch between factions every few weeks.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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djenghis jan
Amarr
Debiloff's Vanguard
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Posted - 2008.05.16 14:42:00 -
[45]
I agree, once a slave always a slave, that's my opinion
dj
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Ki Tarra
Caldari
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.16 14:48:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Ki Tarra on 16/05/2008 14:48:25
Originally by: Rodj Blake
The more actions in Eve that have consequences, the better.
It doesn't make much sense to me that people should be able to freely switch between factions every few weeks.
I am not avocating complete freedom to switch factions.
I am advocating the possiblity of changing factions without rerolling a multi-year old character.
Right now, I have no hope of EVER working for the pirate factions, simply because I spent my few months running missions for empire factions.
Depending on how Faction Warefare interacts with faction standings, it could be possible for a player to get themselves set to be KOS for half of empire space, with no possiblity of EVER changing that.
If Faction Warfare only uses faction standings as an entry requirement and has no more impact on your standings than regular mission running, then it should not be much of a problem.
However, if Faction Warfare has a significant impact on faction standings, then it is quite likely to cut you off from significant areas of the game.
Compare it to being a pirate. You can destroy your security rating quite easily, but you need to deal with the consequences, but you have the option to deal with the consequences. If you destroy your faction standings with a faction block, there is nothing you can do about it, you will permantly gimp your character.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.05.16 14:54:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 16/05/2008 14:55:02
Originally by: th1rdeye
You are a German soldier in WWII. You would effectively have poor standing with US/RUS/UK. If you tired of fighting for Germany, could you just switch sides and be welcomed by the Allies?
Capsuleers are members of "the elite" - according to the PF we're all ludicrously wealthy and powerful by planetside standards. We are not soldiers - we're field/general grade officers, powerful tradesmen and in some cases accomplished statesmen. You should be looking at 19th century and earlier traditions of gentlemanly warfare if we're going for PF/RL comparisons.
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Vibora BR
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.18 15:59:00 -
[48]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
I've been playing this game for just 3 months and as a Minmatar pilot I am already -1.25 Amarr and -0.42 Caldari, so no donuts to me play as Caldari or Amarr.
The main point is that when you are fighting for a Faction you are like a regular army for this Faction as in a Country Army. So you are just a professional soldier, why to lose Status with the other faction.
Even in RL you are not a criminal because you fought for your Country.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.05.18 16:13:00 -
[49]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
That would be excellent, don't forget the trinity of ebil (Sansha, Raider, and Gurista) while your doing it. The only people they like are each other and running Caldari or Amarr missions will push all three down making them unrecoverable very quickly.
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Bad Harlequin
Minmatar
Chiroptera Factor
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Posted - 2008.05.18 16:27:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 18/05/2008 16:28:42
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Are we immortal demi-gods, free to seize the destiny that is rightfully ours?
No. Much as some would tell you otherwise.
Lemme put it this way:
You spend 3 years training combat skills. Suddenly, you decide that as of next week, you'd like to become an expert industrialist, and top-notch researcher, and a master debater.
Can you change your skillpath that easily? No. You're going to have to spend a great deal of time retraining the basics to get to those branches of the skill tree.
this == same.
edit: i'm not saying it should be impossible. just not easy, at all, or quick. the more time you spend breaking something, the longer it may take to fix, yah?
Zleip > very, and this is more or less a post of humor that seriousness =)
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.05.18 17:45:00 -
[51]
About the standings black hole; couldn't you just shoot at navy ships belonging to the side you have good standings with, repeatedly? Or start failing important missions?
My research services
Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Foomanshoe
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.18 17:59:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:16:37
Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL.
There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all.
This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh".
This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate.
Way to completely miss the point. Alliance & 0.0 = Endgame. Agents & >0.4 sec = Beginning. There is currently very little do act as a bridge to get people from agents in high sec to pvp in 0.0. This is the system that is supposed to give missions to pvp in low sec so people get used to pvp and eventually move to 0.0 warfare. Think of it as a great place to scout new pvp'ers for your war efforts.
_______________________________________________
Originally by: Oveur
To the nerfmobile!
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Roberto
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Posted - 2008.05.19 14:43:00 -
[53]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back.
I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings.
But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life.
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
Excellent idea! I agree. It should be hard and take a lot of time, but not impossible as it is most cases now. While you are at it, please implement a similar system to get your standings repaired with the Pirates. Currently the Evil circle of standings is with Blood Raiders, Guristas and Sansha's Nation, as these 3 factions only like each other and hate all others. For me they are all 3 close to -10.00 and there is currently no way for me to get those standings up if I wanted to.
MY current aim is to get all factions positive towards me (with skills). Only those 3 are out of my reach as it is now (still some ways to go for me with the Serps, but they are getting close to positive).
Thanks in advance.
Roberto
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Roberto
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Posted - 2008.05.19 14:45:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
About the standings black hole; couldn't you just shoot at navy ships belonging to the side you have good standings with, repeatedly? Or start failing important missions?
Once those methods worked to repair standings but they don't anymore. That is why a new system for this will be much appreciated (also read my post before this).
Roberto
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Re'Lon
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Posted - 2008.05.19 15:09:00 -
[55]
The new blogs might have covered this issue.
You can join a corp, and as long as that corps faction standing average is over 0.5 it can sign up to fight for that faction. It shouldn't matter if yours is -10, as long as you are in the corp.
This might give people an option to raise faction standings.
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Granmethedon III
The Wild Hunt
Pure.
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Posted - 2008.05.19 15:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Originally by: MotherMoon
why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole?
am I wrong?
Because they have nothing bad to be said about it... they cant argue that you need to be able to get out of the -10 hole and such.
no no my point about all you have to do is have your friend take a mission, help him with it, and then have him turn the mission in and share rewards... wouldn't that recover you?
The problem would be that faction standings are mostly gained through the "important storyline" missions; and as far as I'm aware the faction standings for these aren't split across the gang doing the missions.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Your optimism is an inspiration to us all...
I think I just trolled against my own company though... 
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OneSock
Crown Industries
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.05.19 15:46:00 -
[57]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
How about introducing some "defection" mechanism or "double-agent" system where by you can trade standings for intel or acts of sabotage ?
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Avalira
Caldari
Pax Minor Expiscor Pario Addo
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Posted - 2008.05.19 15:48:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Vibora BR
Even in RL you are not a criminal because you fought for your Country.
That can be countered with you not losing security status because of fighting.
I'm just wondering if the status gain and status loss will be the same or if one will have a higher weight than the other. If we gain more status from killing others than losing it or if the two are at least equal then we could come to a scenario where players might want to jump factions to keep their faction standing above 0.5 for at least one faction on each side.
Another solution would be to only lose standing if you kill NPC faction ships and not lose any standing if you shoot player ships. It gives the players the option of "going all out" and getting happily to -10 or the option of "just pvping".
-------------
Selling the following:
Probe BPC's
ARK JF 4.5b
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.05.22 06:08:00 -
[59]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be?
The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back.
I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings.
But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life.
I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with.
anything?
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.22 07:03:00 -
[60]
Players who work with pirate agents could end up in black holes for all empires, so hopefully there will be some kind of solution for them to get out of the -10 black hole in addition for those who work for empire factions
--
Billion Isk Mission |
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Merdaneth
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.05.22 07:21:00 -
[61]
Personally, I think the linked faction standings are a bit idiotic. Not just in FW, but how they are currently.
As for EVE, players/corps switch allegiance all the time. It is perfectly possible for individuals that were in alliances at war, to end up at the same side. BoB even has a reputation of picking up the best pilots from the opponents they defeated.
If someone wants to RP a spy in FW(and actually does so, relaying intel to hostile factions, disrupting operations), he will still be hit with negative standings, and it will still be impossible for him to switch sides. In fact, the side he betrays will still love him (even though the players do not).
If someone wants to play a mercenary in FW, it will also be hard to do so.
I don't think why it should be easier (and possible) for utterly despised criminals (-10 sec status) to become model citizens but that negative factions standings are irreversible.
In fact, if penalties for one faction are equal to the gains to another, I predict many carebears trying out FW will be constantly switching sides trying to prevent the irreversibility of the standings drop. |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.22 08:13:00 -
[62]
Originally by: th1rdeye
In response to OP, what you fear is the exact way it should function. While Eve must be less realistic than reality to provide more "sandbox", it must be somewhat similar to certain aspects of RL to remain viable and entertaining. To illustrate my point:
You are a German soldier in WWII. You would effectively have poor standing with US/RUS/UK. If you tired of fighting for Germany, could you just switch sides and be welcomed by the Allies?
This seems to be the type of scenario you want available.
For the series: real life analogy bite you, I think the record were some Chinese soldier born in Tibet, that were captured by the Russian while fighting for the Japanese, switched to the Russian, were captured by the German while fighting for the Russian, switched again and were captured in Normandy by the allied forces.
On a more know level: Cossack troops were fighting for the German (first in the URSS then in Italy [practically the Mordu Legion]), Mongol troops fighting for the Russian were captured by German and switched side to them, again fighting in Italy for the Germans (the village were I lived was burned by the Mongol troops under German command).
Switching sides during a war as a nation (Italy, Vichy France in WW2) or as individuals and units isn't so uncommon. Generally the switching troops aren't viewed too well but even there there are exception (the above mentioned Cossack for example).
If we go back to older wars, it was fairly common in 1600-1700 and during other hystorical periods. |
Gigi Barbagrigia
58th Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.05.22 08:16:00 -
[63]
Lose faction standing requirements. Upon joining you get temporary -10 to enemy empire and -5 to its ally. Doing FW stuff doesn't effect your faction standing, neither positive nor negative. Leaving takes a week.
Joining corp should require a vote. |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.22 08:20:00 -
[64]
Originally by: MotherMoon
but you can recover.
get a buddy, have him start a mission, share the rewards. plus if its a lvl 5 mission you'll be killing faction ships along the way.
However this will end you up with -10 with that faction.
I am convinced to have said this to you more than once MM. Faction standing gains aren't shared. |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.22 08:31:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 22/05/2008 08:35:11
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Originally by: Soder Jucio
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL.
There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all.
This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate.
you have your hours shooting at POSes, lagfree fleet battles, cynojammers, nanofleets and cloakers, we get FW.
Fair deal i think
But they are missing out on the true potential...
Imagine if alliances could, by joining factions, help OUT the empire pvp'ers?
Imagine if this naturally aligns empire players WITH alliances, thus giving them a logical path to INTERACTING with these alliances, and possibly joining them eventually?
This smooths the transition from empire to 0.0 does it not?
The fact that lowsec space will be able to change hands is a great thing... IF the alliances could get involved.
Soon as you guys realize you are pirate fodder the whole FW system will fall into complete disuse.
I already anticipate a "why aren't you all involved in faction warfare?!" Dev blog 2 months later just like the, "uh, why aren't you all using jump freighters?" blog...
The answer will be the same... Because it was a good idea in concept, but not thought through well and poorly implemented.
You mean that we will exchange having a pirate carrier plus some BS camping the warp in point of the frigate complex with having a alliance mothership and a support fleet doing the same?
Both will break FW, no one of those option will help it.
The point where the Dev have a very different opinion from me (and I think from most people interested in FW) is that a heavy involvement of third party people (pirates/unaligned people) for them is a positive aspect adding to the PvP content, for me it is a negative aspect where people without limitations will be fighting people that will try to follow the FW limitations (above mentioned ship class limits on complex and missions principally and engagement rules). |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.22 08:41:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Faife
last i checked i gain minmatar faction by shooting random amarr.
so there's that option. sorta like ratting for sec status.
Should have been a lot of years ago, as in the last 2 years it never worked.
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Athamai
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Posted - 2008.05.25 00:05:00 -
[67]
You really should get a faction boost for killing the opposing enemies... Right now you just lose faction with those you kill, not gain it with their enemies.
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: LetsDoThis
Yeah lets just create a huge ass PvE barrier of entry FOR PVP.
ok then go around shooting the faction you want lower standings for.
for instance, you want to work for the ammar but your standings are -10 with ammar.
so you run around shooting minmatar players, and BAM your PvPing for your faction standings.
best part about eve is your get the standings incease or loss in PvP the second you open fire so you wouldn't have to win jsut attacking everything that moves.
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