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Sandbox Options and Faction Warfare

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LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:24:00 - [31] Edited by: LetsDoThis on 16/05/2008 01:33:06 Originally by: Mioelnir Originally by: LetsDoThis RL analogy Game mechanics that mimic real life too close are usually bad. I notice you dodged my asking for a good reason. But I'll answer this, cause im such a coward alt. I only used an analogy in order to justify the mechanic idea. Other than that I really don't care, a wizard did it. But it turns out that its very easily to justify, so I did. Quote: Something like that does not work unless we have an auto balancer. Works well in most games. In TF2 when theres no autobalancing all you have to say is "teams" if they are uneven and somebody will change sides to even them up. In eve the same thing would happen. Only a complete coward would enjoy blobbing an enemy like that. It isn't fun in TF2, it isn't fun in eve. Quote: You don't want to commit to a faction because you're afraid it might be the losing one. Just admit it, alt. I've been playing an RvR game (its the only one out atm, not hard to guess) for 6 years. I've seen this problem, I know this problem well. If you support the player in their decision to better balance the sides, they'll do it. And if you don't, they wont. Then, if the problem ruins their fun, they find a better game. Quote: THAT is not Eve. Alliance tournaments, and now factional warfare, beg to differ. The 0.0 nano-blobbing and lowsec pirating are not the only supported forms of pvp anymore. Also, this **** isn't even in game yet and you are so against not having a faction grind as if its been in the game for years. If there is a right time to argue against a faction grind entry barrier for PvP, its now.
Momo chan	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:06:00 - [32] Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back. I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings. But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life. I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. You know people have been wanting that for a long time because you know if you kill certain groups enough their is not a serious way to get your faction back up with pirates. Also you might look at the entire session timer for different gains because it means a lot of jumping into a system killing something and jumping to another and repeating so that you do not have to wait 15 mins.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:08:00 - [33] why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole? am I wrong?
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:10:00 - [34] Originally by: MotherMoon why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole? am I wrong? Because they have nothing bad to be said about it... they cant argue that you need to be able to get out of the -10 hole and such.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:13:00 - [35] Well, it seems like you should be able to go from being in Amarr to being in Caldari. And when more factions are added in a later expansion, you'll have access to Khanid, Mordu's Legion, and Ammatar. And when pirate factions are added you can go to the ones your enemies hate (Angels, Serpentis). Isn't that enough choices? I get that you want your in-game actions to be totally reversible without any pain, but I don't think your desire for that is reason enough to gimp what sounds like an awesome expansion. ---------------- [insert signature here]
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Lance Fighter Originally by: MotherMoon why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole? am I wrong? Because they have nothing bad to be said about it... they cant argue that you need to be able to get out of the -10 hole and such. no no my point about all you have to do is have your friend take a mission, help him with it, and then have him turn the mission in and share rewards... wouldn't that recover you?
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:22:00 - [37] I saw it, and I recognize that its possible. But its still an absurd grind, and a problem that CCP needs to look into regardless.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:37:00 - [38] Originally by: LetsDoThis I saw it, and I recognize that its possible. But its still an absurd grind, and a problem that CCP needs to look into regardless. ok that's fair, I just wanted to make sure my information was correct.
Mioelnir Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.16 04:04:00 - [39] Edited by: Mioelnir on 16/05/2008 04:08:15 @MotherMoon: Factions standing gains are not shared. I could fly with a corpmate for Republic Fleet for months, I'd still end up at -7.64 faction, +9.9 with Republic Fleet and +10 to the agent. As all 3 have to be above -2 for an agent to give me missions, I won't get any myself. With current mechanics, as soon as all friendlies of the target faction are below -5, it is a done deal. I can, for example, still fly for ORE, who are friendly to the Gallente/Minmatar block until I can fly for Gallente, switch over to them, and then finally Minmatar. @LetsDoIt: I think I already did. It is about commitment. Actions in Eve have consequences. I flew for a pirate organization against the Minmatar Republic. Not once, but a lot. Why should they trust me ever again? [Edit] Typo
Faife Noctiscion Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.16 04:25:00 - [40] last i checked i gain minmatar faction by shooting random amarr. so there's that option. sorta like ratting for sec status.

Lars Lodar Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.16 04:39:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back. I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings. But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life. I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. Freelancer style bribery! If carebears have anything, its isk. Or a series of well written missions that would make your character a double agent by climbing through all the ranks to get close to high value targets in a rival faction for an assassination!
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.16 05:06:00 - [42] Originally by: Mioelnir @LetsDoIt: I think I already did. It is about commitment. Actions in Eve have consequences. I flew for a pirate organization against the Minmatar Republic. Not once, but a lot. Why should they trust me ever again? [Roleplay] They should never trust you again, because you were acting on your own accord against the minmatar republic, thus your personal standings lowered. Had you been in the amarr navy, following direct orders given to you by your commander, it would be understood that you were just fighting for your faction in a time of war. However, had you committed any atrocious warcrimes, that would have lowered your personal standings. [/Roleplay] Its justifiable. As I said, I honestly don't care, afaik a wizard did it. Commitment. I don't want to marry a faction, I'll fight for one though. I mean hell, look at 0.0 politics. Not many people get personal standings set from a major alliance. You have to do something bad, like pull a Tyraxx or Remedial. This is infinitely more justifiable than the way it is currently. Kill enemy battleship, faction likes you a little more. Kill a friendly battleship, faction likes you a little less. Wait.. what? My main was once in goonfleet. My current corp does not like goonfleet, we are at war with them, and everyone else in eve for that matter. My being in goonfleet did not affect my personal relationship with the current corp. They did not review my application and say, "ooh, I hate goonfleet, you were once in goonfleet, I hate you!". They didn't look at the killboards and say "you killed X many of our alliances ships, lemme calculate how much we hate you". Cause thats stupid and unrealistic. Had I done something outstanding like pull a massive corp theft on one of gf's enemies, THAT would get me personal standings, so to speak. That didnt happen. I was simply in an alliance following orders, and pretty much everyone in eve knows the deal.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:34:00 - [43] Originally by: MotherMoon for instance, you want to work for the ammar but your standings are -10 with ammar. so you run around shooting minmatar players, and BAM your PvPing for your faction standings. Originally by: MotherMoon why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole? am I wrong? If the above is what you were refering to, then yes you are wrong, atleast under current mechanics. Only standings increases will have derived effects. Standings loses will not have derived gains. It was not always like that, but has been "fixed" to behave like that because of a history of standings exploits. It was changed to prevent people from gaining faction standings by failing regular missions. That exploit was introduced when they made it so that failing regular mission gave a faction standings loss. Regular missions were changed to have a faction standings loss for failure because of an exploit where by people would select more profitable missions by repeatedly declining less profitable ones, counting on their faction standings to maintain access to the agent even when they had butchered their corp and agent standings because of declining the missions. I can find you the patch notes where that was changed if you need me to. Originally by: CCP Hammer I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. Thank you. If you need help on coming up with ideas on how to do it, I know that I have a few myself, and as always the rest of the community will be happy to voice theirs, regardless of if you want to hear them.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:38:00 - [44] Originally by: Ki Tarra It sounds like Faction Warfare is going to tie in extensively with faction standings. A key problem/limitation with the current faction standings mechanics is that they have a point of no return. Will Faction Warefare require you to permently select a faction with which to ally yourself, or will an option to switch factions be maintained? The more actions in Eve that have consequences, the better. It doesn't make much sense to me that people should be able to freely switch between factions every few weeks. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
djenghis jan Amarr Debiloff's Vanguard	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:42:00 - [45] I agree, once a slave always a slave, that's my opinion dj
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:48:00 - [46] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 16/05/2008 14:48:25 Originally by: Rodj Blake The more actions in Eve that have consequences, the better. It doesn't make much sense to me that people should be able to freely switch between factions every few weeks. I am not avocating complete freedom to switch factions. I am advocating the possiblity of changing factions without rerolling a multi-year old character. Right now, I have no hope of EVER working for the pirate factions, simply because I spent my few months running missions for empire factions. Depending on how Faction Warefare interacts with faction standings, it could be possible for a player to get themselves set to be KOS for half of empire space, with no possiblity of EVER changing that. If Faction Warfare only uses faction standings as an entry requirement and has no more impact on your standings than regular mission running, then it should not be much of a problem. However, if Faction Warfare has a significant impact on faction standings, then it is quite likely to cut you off from significant areas of the game. Compare it to being a pirate. You can destroy your security rating quite easily, but you need to deal with the consequences, but you have the option to deal with the consequences. If you destroy your faction standings with a faction block, there is nothing you can do about it, you will permantly gimp your character.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:54:00 - [47] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 16/05/2008 14:55:02 Originally by: th1rdeye You are a German soldier in WWII. You would effectively have poor standing with US/RUS/UK. If you tired of fighting for Germany, could you just switch sides and be welcomed by the Allies? Capsuleers are members of "the elite" - according to the PF we're all ludicrously wealthy and powerful by planetside standards. We are not soldiers - we're field/general grade officers, powerful tradesmen and in some cases accomplished statesmen. You should be looking at 19th century and earlier traditions of gentlemanly warfare if we're going for PF/RL comparisons. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Vibora BR Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.18 15:59:00 - [48] Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? I've been playing this game for just 3 months and as a Minmatar pilot I am already -1.25 Amarr and -0.42 Caldari, so no donuts to me play as Caldari or Amarr. The main point is that when you are fighting for a Faction you are like a regular army for this Faction as in a Country Army. So you are just a professional soldier, why to lose Status with the other faction. Even in RL you are not a criminal because you fought for your Country.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.05.18 16:13:00 - [49] Originally by: CCP Hammer I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. That would be excellent, don't forget the trinity of ebil (Sansha, Raider, and Gurista) while your doing it. The only people they like are each other and running Caldari or Amarr missions will push all three down making them unrecoverable very quickly.
Bad Harlequin Minmatar Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.18 16:27:00 - [50] Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 18/05/2008 16:28:42 Originally by: Ki Tarra Are we immortal demi-gods, free to seize the destiny that is rightfully ours? No. Much as some would tell you otherwise. Lemme put it this way: You spend 3 years training combat skills. Suddenly, you decide that as of next week, you'd like to become an expert industrialist, and top-notch researcher, and a master debater. Can you change your skillpath that easily? No. You're going to have to spend a great deal of time retraining the basics to get to those branches of the skill tree. this == same. edit: i'm not saying it should be impossible. just not easy, at all, or quick. the more time you spend breaking something, the longer it may take to fix, yah? Zleip > very, and this is more or less a post of humor that seriousness =)

Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.18 17:45:00 - [51] About the standings black hole; couldn't you just shoot at navy ships belonging to the side you have good standings with, repeatedly? Or start failing important missions? My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Foomanshoe Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.18 17:59:00 - [52] Originally by: Jakke Logan Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 00:16:37 Honestly, the fact that this doesn't include alliances makes it FAIL. There are some nice things here, but I think this expansion is going to go over poorly. The hardest core players in this game are in alliances and in 0.0 and this offers NOTHING for those players at all. This expansion seems geared towards getting highsec carebears into pvp. Most of them don't want to pvp (at least not yet at this point in their game point), and this won't make them want to. Your existing pvp'ers (out in 0.0) will look at this and say, "meh". This thing should NOT be released until alliances can participate. Way to completely miss the point. Alliance & 0.0 = Endgame. Agents & >0.4 sec = Beginning. There is currently very little do act as a bridge to get people from agents in high sec to pvp in 0.0. This is the system that is supposed to give missions to pvp in low sec so people get used to pvp and eventually move to 0.0 warfare. Think of it as a great place to scout new pvp'ers for your war efforts. _______________________________________________ Originally by: Oveur To the nerfmobile!
Roberto	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:43:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back. I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings. But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life. I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. Excellent idea! I agree. It should be hard and take a lot of time, but not impossible as it is most cases now. While you are at it, please implement a similar system to get your standings repaired with the Pirates. Currently the Evil circle of standings is with Blood Raiders, Guristas and Sansha's Nation, as these 3 factions only like each other and hate all others. For me they are all 3 close to -10.00 and there is currently no way for me to get those standings up if I wanted to. MY current aim is to get all factions positive towards me (with skills). Only those 3 are out of my reach as it is now (still some ways to go for me with the Serps, but they are getting close to positive). Thanks in advance. Roberto
Roberto	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:45:00 - [54] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro About the standings black hole; couldn't you just shoot at navy ships belonging to the side you have good standings with, repeatedly? Or start failing important missions? Once those methods worked to repair standings but they don't anymore. That is why a new system for this will be much appreciated (also read my post before this). Roberto
Re'Lon	Posted - 2008.05.19 15:09:00 - [55] The new blogs might have covered this issue. You can join a corp, and as long as that corps faction standing average is over 0.5 it can sign up to fight for that faction. It shouldn't matter if yours is -10, as long as you are in the corp. This might give people an option to raise faction standings.
Granmethedon III The Wild Hunt Pure.	Posted - 2008.05.19 15:27:00 - [56] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Lance Fighter Originally by: MotherMoon why is everyone ignoring my post about how to get out of the -10 hole? am I wrong? Because they have nothing bad to be said about it... they cant argue that you need to be able to get out of the -10 hole and such. no no my point about all you have to do is have your friend take a mission, help him with it, and then have him turn the mission in and share rewards... wouldn't that recover you? The problem would be that faction standings are mostly gained through the "important storyline" missions; and as far as I'm aware the faction standings for these aren't split across the gang doing the missions. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Your optimism is an inspiration to us all... I think I just trolled against my own company though...
OneSock Crown Industries space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.05.19 15:46:00 - [57] Originally by: CCP Hammer I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. How about introducing some "defection" mechanism or "double-agent" system where by you can trade standings for intel or acts of sabotage ?
Avalira Caldari Pax Minor Expiscor Pario Addo	Posted - 2008.05.19 15:48:00 - [58] Originally by: Vibora BR Even in RL you are not a criminal because you fought for your Country. That can be countered with you not losing security status because of fighting. I'm just wondering if the status gain and status loss will be the same or if one will have a higher weight than the other. If we gain more status from killing others than losing it or if the two are at least equal then we could come to a scenario where players might want to jump factions to keep their faction standing above 0.5 for at least one faction on each side. Another solution would be to only lose standing if you kill NPC faction ships and not lose any standing if you shoot player ships. It gives the players the option of "going all out" and getting happily to -10 or the option of "just pvping". ------------- Selling the following: Probe BPC's ARK JF 4.5b
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:08:00 - [59] Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Hammer Currently the barrier to entry is pretty low. You only need a positive 0.5 standing towards your chosen faction to join their militia. If you play a lot and end up with +10 to Minmatar and -10 to Amarr you should have a bit of trouble switching sides but don't you think that's the way it should be? The problem is that if you hit -5 base standings, there is no way back. I have no problem with a long painful process to recover from -10 standings. But if you can hit -5 by trialling in Faction Warfare out for a month or two, you will effectively cut yourself off from that faction for the rest of your character's life. I shall endeavor to make sure there is a way to climb out of the -10 hole. It's midnight right now. Let me talk to my team tomorrow and see what we can come up with. anything? ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:03:00 - [60] Players who work with pirate agents could end up in black holes for all empires, so hopefully there will be some kind of solution for them to get out of the -10 black hole in addition for those who work for empire factions -- Billion Isk Mission



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