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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Ricdic
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.06.25 18:27:00 -
[121]
I like the idea about being able to tag your items client side. It allows us to utilise not just blueprints but also things like tagging of items used for a ship etc. Maybe even enhance that a little with an option to select all tagged items 
Seems it would be simple enough to implement and would bypass the issues expressed here.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=500043
Largest Empire Research Alliance in EVE! |
Mar'Dur Taren
The Copernicus Institute
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Posted - 2008.06.26 15:03:00 -
[122]
I'd like to post my support for making the BPOs and BPCs visually distinguishable. There is no good reason for them not to be and it would improve usability a lot.
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Captain Counterpart
GALNET Company Limited
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Posted - 2008.06.26 20:03:00 -
[123]
BPC background turn to RED. 
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Gwendion
Gallente
Bladed Moon
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.06.27 10:06:00 -
[124]
I know you've said its not possible but uh.. You have ways to control visual displays of the images right? Possible to change the RGB hues or add another icon overlay? (like T2 for example)
So.. how about just a visual change, a quick change where it calls the function to display the icon like...
(I used -1 as the BPO difference, cause if its greater than 1, then its a BPC, thats just how Im thinking about it)
if (item->runs != -1)
{
addBPCIcon(item);
}
or whatever, similar to say T2 how the T2 icon is just a small visual change ontop of the base icon.
It would work! You have the ability! :P
A copy stamp over the icon would look cool.. (bottom up orientation)
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.28 04:04:00 -
[125]
 Originally by: Gwendion
I know you've said its not possible but uh.. You have ways to control visual displays of the images right? Possible to change the RGB hues or add another icon overlay? (like T2 for example)
So.. how about just a visual change, a quick change where it calls the function to display the icon like...
(I used -1 as the BPO difference, cause if its greater than 1, then its a BPC, thats just how Im thinking about it)
if (item->runs != -1)
{
addBPCIcon(item);
}
or whatever, similar to say T2 how the T2 icon is just a small visual change ontop of the base icon.
It would work! You have the ability! :P
A copy stamp over the icon would look cool.. (bottom up orientation)
It wont work because Eve does not query the meta data on an item on opening the inventory window, only when you 'show info' for that item. Read the thread.
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Rodanine
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.04 13:46:00 -
[126]
since Blueprints take up basically little to no actual space why can't we manufacture them from inside containers so i can keep my inventory floor space neat and tide by using 2 small containers one labeled bpc the other labeled bpo's.
i have almost everything else in my hanger floor broken down into containers weather they are station containers or gsc. i suppose i could continue to have to manually pull the prints from their respective containers so i can manufacture but thats becomes a tad tedious after a while of having to pull them out and put them back when one is done.
not a perfect solution but i am a tad of neat freak and hate seeing my hanger floor cluttered with all the stuff i currently have.
yes this is an alt get over it |
Luzz Bightyear
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Posted - 2008.07.05 11:49:00 -
[127]
Having the client query the number of runs, PE, etc automatically when it encounters BPs is ideal IMO.
This crap about additional database overhead is bullshit, everyone with a brain has to hit the Info page and query it ANYWAY. :P
Off topic: a button in the Create Job window next to the Runs box that sets the number of runs to the max you can produce with the materials you currently have would be nice.
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.07 01:33:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Luzz Bightyear
Having the client query the number of runs, PE, etc automatically when it encounters BPs is ideal IMO.
This crap about additional database overhead is bullshit, everyone with a brain has to hit the Info page and query it ANYWAY. :P
Off topic: a button in the Create Job window next to the Runs box that sets the number of runs to the max you can produce with the materials you currently have would be nice.
I don't know about you, but I don't click show info on every single BPO/BPC every single time I open my inventory hanger in a station. I only really do it when I want to use a BPO/BPC.
So yes, it is added overhead to the database to have it run tens to hundreds of extra queries all at once.
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Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.09 08:08:00 -
[129]
here to add/share the pain of dropping a single cap recharger bpo into 400 copies of bpcs...
and spending an hour to find it... in the 21 to last item...
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HenkieBoy
Enrave
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.09 21:20:00 -
[130]
First of all, find it great a dev talks alot about an issue :)
I have done SQL modeling for some time now, and I understand the problem at hand.
The only real option is to rethink and rebuild the whole item part in EVE. This annoying problem is just something small. But this same DB design does not allow 'customized build' items, thats why we got so much 'named' stuff. While this system worked for years, I really think it due for a major overhaul.
One big problem though.. an 'Industrial expansion' just isn't a selling point. Thats why we get expansions only covering missions, wars, pvp and battles.. because those themes sell to the big public.
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Yohanes Flame
Burning Sky Labs
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Posted - 2008.07.13 14:44:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Yohanes Flame on 13/07/2008 14:45:27
per the dev reasoning.
why not put a graphical tag on copies then. especially if they are user db local.
any why is it not possible to have the original/copy/all drop down in hanger view.
____________________________
Point Zero Corp
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Khlitouris RegusII
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:01:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Jinx Barker
They cant.
CCP Devs posted about it before, something to do with the way Database process the BPOs/BPCs - would be impossible, or rather Lag Causing - to do the delineation between them in color. I think because it will have to treat each BPC as a unique DB item, and create each additional entry in the system for each BPC and so forth and so on, basically lagging EVE to hell and back.
Yet some bpo's and bpc's come in different colours already 
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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.15 18:16:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Ricdic
I like the idea about being able to tag your items client side. It allows us to utilise not just blueprints but also things like tagging of items used for a ship etc. Maybe even enhance that a little with an option to select all tagged items
One of the main issues with that would be around customer understanding. You and I may know my repackaging, merging or splitting stacks etc would break the tagging on what most users see as the same item. But a lot of players won't, and would spam the GM's and Bughunters when the tagging didn't behave as they expected.
Any client hack to migrate the tag from one ItemID to another when performing such an item would rely on you only ever using one client, and only one char ever accessing that hangar/can/whatever. Otherwise you'd have to maintain an ItemID history for each item on the server, which would be horrendous.
There's also the issue of how to clear out "dead" tags - e.g. if you tag an item and one of your corp-mates trashes it, how does your client know to remove that ItemID from your local tagging list? Bearing in mind that ItemID's get re-used, so it's not reliable to just check whether that ItemID has been trashed, as it could already have been assigned to a new, completely unrelated, item.
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
BigWhale
Gallente
Three WiseMen Association
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Posted - 2008.07.15 19:36:00 -
[134]
Edited by: BigWhale on 15/07/2008 19:37:29
Originally by: CCP Lingorm
itemID, typeID, locationID, ownerID, flag, contraband, singleton, quantity (this is in the staticDB dump we provide)
Basically what you get out of the inventory API (which has some names added for ease).
If you are really interested in the detail then have a look at the static data dump as it has all the tables and structures.
Flags and contraband? Bits? Bytes? If bytes, then a solution could be to use bitfields for storing those binary values. You know,
(1 << 0) - Normal Item
(1 << 1) - Contraband
(1 << 2) - BPO
(1 << 3) - BPC
If those are bits already, then you could combine the two of them?
0 0 - Normal Item
0 1 - Contraband
1 0 - BPC
1 1 - Flag
It wouldn't work without UI changes.
Edit: It seems others already suggested similar approach. :)
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R, U & Y are letters, not words... |
Skolima
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Posted - 2008.07.18 17:01:00 -
[135]
Bump, I just had to locate 2 BPO between 300 BPC :-(
Seeing any of the ideas implemented would be nice, all would be awesome:
- local cache of the BPC/BPO status (with ME/PE/runs?) with the option to select multiple items and request "query details"
- ability to drag&drop items from the Science And Industry view
- single-character version of corporate hangars
- DB changes (we all know this won't happen...)
- perform operations on multiple BPC/BPO at once (say, select 10, push Invent, select 10 available slots and have them run)
Man can dream...
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Anton Zuber
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.18 19:39:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Anton Zuber on 18/07/2008 19:39:30
You have got to be kidding me....
The entire reason you have NOT added an easy way to distinguish BPOs from BPCs is that you don't want to add ONE SINGLE BIT of data to your item indexing database?
How many BPOs/BPCs are out there now? I know there's a lot. So that must mean you've got to already be running 16, probably 32 bit indexing anyhow? And you're whining about adding ONE louzy bit of data to that? It's not that hard. one binary bit, 0 or 1. original or copy. Oh my.
Worse, you add invention to the mix. Now Invention is encouraging us to make MANY more unique items in your data base. So you are in effect encouraging us to add undoubtedly much more than one bit of data to your indexing. But what do you expect? We need the copies to do invention runs.
As an added feature for us users that are running copies, the batch spits the Original out in a RANDOM ORDER so we get to sit here and show info on every single BP in the hangar until we can find the ONE that is an original and set it aside in a can or something so we can find the bloody thing later.
gods.... CCP is so dumb some days....
"Oh it is the eyeball one." -Erfworld
" ... I was looking forward to flinging an angry housecat in someone's soft and unprotected face." -Order of the Stick |
BigWhale
Gallente
Three WiseMen Association
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Posted - 2008.07.19 06:13:00 -
[137]
Actually adding a single bit to a database table might be a little difficult. You can't just add a bit. How will you store a single bit on a disk? Or even in memory?
To add a single bit, you have to add one column to a database table. That would be (at least) one byte per every item.
The idea is to find a solution in existing DB schema. Can they recycle a bit here and there in one of the existing columns?
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R, U & Y are letters, not words... |
Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.21 02:15:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 21/07/2008 02:15:48
Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 21/07/2008 02:15:30
Originally by: BigWhale
Actually adding a single bit to a database table might be a little difficult. You can't just add a bit. How will you store a single bit on a disk? Or even in memory?
To add a single bit, you have to add one column to a database table. That would be (at least) one byte per every item.
The idea is to find a solution in existing DB schema. Can they recycle a bit here and there in one of the existing columns?
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=772921&page=4#96
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Wardo21
The Arcanum
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Posted - 2008.07.22 22:11:00 -
[139]
I think the general consensus is that you should be able to do this with some recoding and adjusting with the data you already retrieve for inventory lists.
There is really 3 states for prints:
original untouched - can still be sold on the normal market and stacked.
original used/researched - can't stack or sell on the normal market.
copy - no stacks, no further research, not sold on normal market.
When I run a production job, you already remove the "1" from the stack size of the original untouched print as it converts to a used original. Even if I haven't done any research on that print. (I think, but I haven't used a virgin print in a long time.)
Researched originals clearly lose their stack size attribute from the list already returned.
This is one option I can think of. It's technically a violation of strict normalization by using the same attribute from the query for different purposes, but it should work.
Yes, you will likely have to create more types to be "copies" and used originals (but perhaps not), and alter the code that produces copies from a lab/mfg facilities (for sure). You will also have to resolve the issue of multiple prints being able to produce the same item (if multiple types are needed). If so, rethink the FK declaration between prints and produced objects.
Reuse the field that determines the size of a gun, or the slot for a module, to indicate the type of print. Also, store the number of runs for a copy in the same place as the number of items in a stack. (Or however it is that you mark a print as used, stack size for used originals is null or empty.) This would also be a nice indicator of how many runs a copy has right on the icon.
Color would be nice when it's in an icon view, but at the very least, the detail view will show the print type (like gun size or slot). If the client reacts to that field and alters the color or overlays another icon, all the better. These can be left to the client side to reduce bandwidth and server requirements. Bonus points to disable this coloring/overlay feature for low resource clients.
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Ackuula
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Posted - 2008.07.25 14:00:00 -
[140]
Get rid of BPO's and turn them into something like skills that you learn forever, in other words it's not in your inventory anymore and is non-transferable.
Standard research facilities or say cashing in research points can be used to optimize them.
If you want to make something or sell copies you crank out a BPC hardcopy and there you go no more confusion.
It wouldn't take away all the corp theft/pirate nastiness since BPC's would still be expensive to make and a risk to transport.
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Rogen DarHeel
Caldari
Rogen's Heroes
THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.25 19:43:00 -
[141]
BPO's aren't going anywhere...
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Xelios Xarxes
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Posted - 2008.07.28 03:01:00 -
[142]
I would also like to be able to see the ME/PE/Runs of a BPC without having to show info. (Is there a way already?) When you create a contract you can see all those details on the contract list, but before creating it there's no way I know of. It's really annoying; make detail view in the item hangar show the same BPC details as contract or something.
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Ava Santiago
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.30 04:54:00 -
[143]
I'm hoping we get a search option for originals in the updated contract system. I can figure out how to deal with my copies, but buying researched BPO's would be a LOT easier if I could find them in the stacks of copies.
It's also nice to know at least one developer understands industrial issues.
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
suicide
Caldari
Synergy.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 06:08:00 -
[144]
Color them different. Done. Yay
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Lieutenant Isis
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:48:00 -
[145]
Lingorm, this thread is the most informative sources of information I have seen from any Dev. Most devs, if they offer an explanation at all, are general esoteric or of the, "no we cannot do that" style.
I must thank you and hope that the informations continues!
Originally by: Roc Wieler
I enhance my RP experience by filling my bathtub with red jello, balancing a wooden plank across it, then play EVE naked on my laptop.
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.31 20:09:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Wardo21
Reuse the field that determines the size of a gun, or the slot for a module, to indicate the type of print. Also, store the number of runs for a copy in the same place as the number of items in a stack. (Or however it is that you mark a print as used, stack size for used originals is null or empty.) This would also be a nice indicator of how many runs a copy has right on the icon.
That field is in the itemid for the item which is shared between BPC and BPO, so that wouldn't work at all.
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DorXtar
The Hull Miners Union
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2008.08.03 22:35:00 -
[147]
Originally by: suicide
Color them different. Done. Yay
BPC's should be brown.
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It never hurts to help! |
Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.05 17:45:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 05/08/2008 17:45:47
Originally by: Mika Meroko
here to add/share the pain of dropping a single cap recharger bpo into 400 copies of bpcs...
and spending an hour to find it... in the 21 to last item...
Use the science and industry window if you accidentally drop it in 200 bpc's. You can throw the bpo back into production then move all your BPC's to a container, and then cancel the S&I job.
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Ammon Skycloud
Caldari
Matari Research Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.08 10:35:00 -
[149]
Ok I've not read the entire thread so someone may have said some of this before.
I noticed that one of the devs stated that the database is heavily normalised, and that adding the ability to identify a BPO would require an additional relationship to exist which will affect performance. as a developer who has been responsible for optimising and normalising transactional databases for stock exchanges, banks it occurs to me that either the dev who made that statement is basing it on incomplete understanding of the data structure, or that the data structure is horribly over normalised, something that can lead to serious performance degradation, the old adage of too much of a good thing might apply here.
Be that as it may, there is something I have noticed in the game, the fact that BPOÆs can already be distinguished from BPCÆs, the first reason is BPOÆs can be stacked (when packaged) BPCÆs cannot, unless the game is checking the database every time you tell it to repackage or stack items that information is already available on the client.
Secondly and more importantly, when viewing your inventory in detail list mode, BPOÆs have a qty value and BPCÆs do not, this alone should be enough to identify a BPO from a BPC graphically since it is obvious that the information that the client has about a BPO is different from that of a BPC, IÆll admit using the qty flag/field/parameter as a way to identify a BPO is a bit of a hack, but if the database is truly normalised to the extent that you cannot add a parameter field to the BPO database record without an additional table join then it may be a viable option.
But in all seriousness as someone who has specialised in database and system performance optimisation for a long time the description given of the database although limited makes me want to say only one thing
/facepalm
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.08 14:43:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Ammon Skycloud
Ok I've not read the entire thread so someone may have said some of this before.
yea it has been suggested. BPO's do not have a quantity value once researched or used in manufacturing.
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