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Too much ISK around, wee need ISKs sinks stuff

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LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Conrad Rock Delete T2 BPOS and MOONS nice isk sink for those who trully have too much That isn't an isk sink. It's just removal of assets, which doesn't change the total sum of isk, in the game.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:42:00 - [62] Moons are actually inderict isk sinks. Moons take POSes, which consume NPC goods (and ice).
FlameWarrior	Posted - 2008.05.19 22:08:00 - [63] just woudering will that be possible take a loan from u Wooster Knite ?/ everytime i got a new ships i got blow up ~ as i can't afford them in the 0.2+ area ~!!!~ when i was about to leave EVERYTIME !! EVERYIME I GOT blown up !~
Opertone Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.19 22:27:00 - [64] isks sink - how about tell a joke? you give the agent 100 mill and he tells you a joke... you pay her 1 billion and she reveals her pixels to you. honestly NPC pirate factions can offer some hi-tech stuff for very high prices, it's ok if they sell you a plus 7 implant set for 10 billion isks, provided that you have the connections.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.20 12:34:00 - [65] Originally by: Cergorach Moons are actually inderict isk sinks. Moons take POSes, which consume NPC goods (and ice). I'd like to see an increase in the consumption amounts module and use type depending. And consumption increases to infinity the more you try and stretch a single tower. Ie, a tower uses more fuel the closer to 100% grid usage it gets. And PC manufacture items be required to moon mine with costs increasing the higher the rarity type of the mineral in use. Discounts for sov, etc... and all that jazz as well.
kublai Caldari Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.20 14:15:00 - [66] I agree there is an inflation, but it's not just in isk. You don't need a 40 billion buffer to remain in ships and free eve np. A battleship to most the people I play with is as throwaway now as a cruiser was before it, and a frigate before that. Macro miners and farmer ravens in 0.0 are flooding our markets with cheap isk and minerals decimating the economy turning eve-online in to counterstrike. Lose a battleship? fetch another! Kill the macro miners and isk farmers, create some isk sinks and make isk and assets mean more. I speak on behalf of my corporation Even when smacking
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:21:00 - [67] theres not too much isk in eve, you guys just need to spend more get a few faction bs and go solo roam in low sec or something for a little giggle
kublai Caldari Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Lord Zoran theres not too much isk in eve, you guys just need to spend more get a few faction bs and go solo roam in low sec or something for a little giggle Actually most my corp use faction battleships and other things in low sec regularly, that's my point, things like these just aren't all that special anymore. Any chump can get a faction bs if they put their mind to it, and most older veteran players can just pop over to jita and buy one for kicks on a whim. I speak on behalf of my corporation Even when smacking
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.05.20 18:44:00 - [69] The problem is not the money supply in the game... the problem is where the money ends up. The rich don't have anything to spend their money on really so they keep buying up more T2 bpo's and other such items and keep getting richer. The poorer players keep using their money to PvP, etc. All of the money is transitioning to the richer players. I wish there was a monthly tracking of what % of the total in game isk was held by the top 1, 5, 10, 25, 50% of the population, etc. Track this month to month and you can see which way the money is shifting for sure. It seems to me there has to be a way for the ultra-rich to spend their money. This seems like the place for T3 to come in. There could be weekly dutch auctions in game for 1 of each T3 BPO per week for half a year. I know they probably were not thinking of putting T3 BPO's in game but this would be a great way to pull out a massive amount of isk from the richest players. Not sure it would be good in the long run though.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.20 18:54:00 - [70] Originally by: Shadarle The problem is not the money supply in the game... the problem is where the money ends up. The rich don't have anything to spend their money on really so they keep buying up more T2 bpo's and other such items and keep getting richer. The poorer players keep using their money to PvP, etc. All of the money is transitioning to the richer players. I wish there was a monthly tracking of what % of the total in game isk was held by the top 1, 5, 10, 25, 50% of the population, etc. Track this month to month and you can see which way the money is shifting for sure. It seems to me there has to be a way for the ultra-rich to spend their money. This seems like the place for T3 to come in. There could be weekly dutch auctions in game for 1 of each T3 BPO per week for half a year. I know they probably were not thinking of putting T3 BPO's in game but this would be a great way to pull out a massive amount of isk from the richest players. Not sure it would be good in the long run though. If the items are static in nature.. ie blue print originals it would only take a matter of time before we'd be right back where we started. Nah, there needs to be a clear sink and cost involved with T3 items. In my view this is how I would have T3 tier handled. T2 BPOs can no longer be copied.. period. Ever. You need copies they must be invented. T3 invention requires very specific datacores from RnD agents and come in very limited supply, or are seeded into the market as NPC goods where the sell orders change dynamically to reflect the total demand in game. As the supply dwindles the sell orders reflect this through increased costs. The building of said T3 ships requires a POS build array and cannot be built in station. That creates a very clear and dramatic cost involved with T3 items and creates many avenues for revenues streams and opens the door to forced competition.
Chira Netanru	Posted - 2008.05.20 19:40:00 - [71] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria The building of said T2 ships + modules requires a POS build array and cannot be built in station. I think you just fixed T2 BPOs...
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.21 00:24:00 - [72] Originally by: Chira Netanru Originally by: Kazzac Elentria The building of said T2 ships + modules requires a POS build array and cannot be built in station. I think you just fixed T2 BPOs... I could possibly get on board for that, for all tier 2 and higher requiring assembly arrays and only allowing tier 2 builds in station. Or maybe a vastly reduced cost and/or time length by using a POS
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.21 00:54:00 - [73] Originally by: Chira Netanru Originally by: Kazzac Elentria The building of said T2 ships + modules requires a POS build array and cannot be built in station. I think you just fixed T2 BPOs... This would also have the effect of removing some of the more casual low end inventors. It would also force some degree of scaling manufacturing. I support this concept but I feel it needs more discussion.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.05.21 05:01:00 - [74] I don't know, I nearly do not have enough ISK... But, some worthwhile and expensive goal would be nice. Too bad EVE has so little "true Security" when it comes to financial stuff. I would invest into an NPC station, or a station that can not be taken away from me.. he he he... even for a modest return.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.05.21 17:13:00 - [75] Originally by: Jinx Barker I don't know, I nearly do not have enough ISK... But, some worthwhile and expensive goal would be nice. Too bad EVE has so little "true Security" when it comes to financial stuff. I would invest into an NPC station, or a station that can not be taken away from me.. he he he... even for a modest return. So if you had a 100% secure way to make modest returns you'd take it? No way! Really? You'd settle for that? Of course that would only exacerbate the problem.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:51:00 - [76] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Jinx Barker I don't know, I nearly do not have enough ISK... But, some worthwhile and expensive goal would be nice. Too bad EVE has so little "true Security" when it comes to financial stuff. I would invest into an NPC station, or a station that can not be taken away from me.. he he he... even for a modest return. So if you had a 100% secure way to make modest returns you'd take it? No way! Really? You'd settle for that? Of course that would only exacerbate the problem. What can I say, I am a "conservative" when it comes to ISK/Money in general, I try to minimize the risk. But, I do see your point, I saw it when I posted it.... still, I cant beat my conservative nature of keeping ISK close to my vest, and working it at best angles with most security.. ...but, feel free to try and ridicule some more, I mean if it gives you pleasure, or raises your epeen any way....
Conrad Rock Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.21 19:35:00 - [77] If the money is staying in the "few" richmen's hands, then there is no problem. The problem is when everybody's rich, and that's simply not the case.
Aricaan Prophetics Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:45:00 - [78] Oh had another idea, invest in some newer corps and help them get into 0.0 space. ;D
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:03:00 - [79] Originally by: Aricaan Oh had another idea, invest in some newer corps and help them get into 0.0 space. ;D I would love to, I would, but, because the financial enforcement is nonexistent in EVE, there is no way for me to make sure that my 30 Billion will not be pilfered, and no way to ensure repayment. That is why I am in awe of EVE Bank and some other legitimate entities in this game, simply am, I am just not able to trust them no matter how many others did/and still do, I just cant. I guess I am an old miser..
Jene Saisquoi	Posted - 2008.05.23 21:51:00 - [80] First, this is why we need an investment sector. It's hard to do because of the principal-agent problem, but it's doable. If you want something to do with your money, start an alliance. There's lots of alliances out there looking for 0.0 territory and lots of corps looking to form an alliance butr don't have the cash. Running alliances can be a lot of fun so it's not like you're wasting your money. If you want to save for tech 3 (or something else) but are concerned about inflation (which may or may not exist; it's hard to tell), there are three things you can do. Bring in more people in the game. More demand for isk increases its value, assuaging inflation. A mild impact, yes, but it's not nothing. Hoard more money achieved from other players. This increases the value of ISK by reducing the velocity (and thus the effective quantity). Of course this is risky because when it's time to unload you might have an effect because of sheer volume. The other problem is that if it does work, players will just work get more ISK from CCP but there is a delay factor there. Buy minerals. As the EVE economist reminds us, minerals are everything in EVE. He uses them to calculate inflation. If you buy minerals, then your assets will move with inflation. You might lose some real value when you cash out (because you might sell at a real loss so they move quickly) but if you're as concerned as you claim, this shouldn't be a big deal. Losing 2% to inflation is worse than losing 1% to securing yourself in minerals. Personally, I like this sort of problem; it's very realistic. The more you have, the harder it should be to manage it. Improves income mobility, too, which makes the game more interesting. "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but t
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.23 23:59:00 - [81] Originally by: Jene Saisquoi Buy minerals. As the EVE economist reminds us, minerals are everything in EVE. He uses them to calculate inflation. If you buy minerals, then your assets will move with inflation. You might lose some real value when you cash out (because you might sell at a real loss so they move quickly) but if you're as concerned as you claim, this shouldn't be a big deal. Losing 2% to inflation is worse than losing 1% to securing yourself in minerals. Right now, anyone who has a substantial sizable wallet should be pouring a percentage as a hedge into trit. We've already seen that demand can outstrip PC supply very quickly, and with the goal that developers have of removing static asteroids and forcing players to find belts? I could see this putting even more pressure on demand and waning supply even more. Just personal opinion obviously, take it with a grain of salt.
Opertone Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:24:00 - [82] very good post Shadarle ISK mass keeps growing, it is ends up in the hands of the richer players, trading only leads to ISK shifting from one wallet to another. Spending money on the Player market doesn't reduce the isk. There is a lot of excessive isk in game that cannot be cashed in without causing serious inflation. It lies idle in rich players wallets, so it doesn't initiate inflation. This is can only be destroyed if rich players buy a titan BPO, isk goes to NPCs and it is no more. For every Battleship created, EVE game spawns 20 - 50 mill ISK of insurance out of nowhere. 100 mill price of a Battleship simply goes to another player, presumably rich BPO holder. Only the speculators get all ISK in the long term. They are mineral brokers, billionaires with understanding of market dynamics, clear vision of EVE trend and desire to speculate on EVE currency and assets. There are very few natural ISK sinks large enough to be noticed, Titan BPO, Titan SkillBook, Outpost advanced upgrade platform, Outpost BPO. They range from 10 bill to 60 bill, ISK goes to NPCs and is naturally destroyed.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:54:00 - [83] Originally by: Cergorach Originally by: Draiman Regardless of his method of play, his point still stands. There is way too much isk in the game. I would say that there are to many EVE players hoarding isk, if they would spent it on some inventive (ad)ventures, then there wouldn't be 'too much' isk in the game. There are a lot of folk in EVE that lack creativity and want more consumption articles served up to them on a silver platter... I agree with this, as I make new isk and go out and play games like see who I can bomb in 0.0. Or I hire a merc corp to target a random mining corp that I happened to run into. I tried to manipulate the market in low sec, played with t2 ships with t2 rigs and implants (got podded). Buy new ships to use and they go pop as I use them. Really I can't see having too much isk, if I had 100 billion or more I would start screwing in 0.0, maybe target RA and see how many mercs I can hire to pop them Originally by: Radcjk PvP in eve can be sort of rough. It's closer to bad sex. Usually an hour of two of foreplay followed by 5 minutes of disappointment. And the surprise at the end.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:58:00 - [84] Originally by: Shadarle The problem is not the money supply in the game... the problem is where the money ends up. The rich don't have anything to spend their money on really so they keep buying up more T2 bpo's and other such items and keep getting richer. The poorer players keep using their money to PvP, etc. All of the money is transitioning to the richer players. I wish there was a monthly tracking of what % of the total in game isk was held by the top 1, 5, 10, 25, 50% of the population, etc. Track this month to month and you can see which way the money is shifting for sure. It seems to me there has to be a way for the ultra-rich to spend their money. This seems like the place for T3 to come in. There could be weekly dutch auctions in game for 1 of each T3 BPO per week for half a year. I know they probably were not thinking of putting T3 BPO's in game but this would be a great way to pull out a massive amount of isk from the richest players. Not sure it would be good in the long run though. Great Idea with the t3 but only with bpc's so that the rich don't have a way to stay rich forever. Originally by: Radcjk PvP in eve can be sort of rough. It's closer to bad sex. Usually an hour of two of foreplay followed by 5 minutes of disappointment. And the surprise at the end.
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.05.24 11:01:00 - [85] In my mind the issue is this - 'true' industrialists, for whom the only real fun of the game is to make money and build financial power, have run out of things to do. EVE hasn't "grown" at the high end of the industrial aspect for too long. For those that were playing years ago, remember when BS BPO's were an aspiration, then T2 BPO's, then POS's, then cap ship BPO's... but what have we had in the last year or two? The answer is virtually nothing, so if you have played for the last five years and built a fortune working through these earlier commercial goals, you've kind of run out of things to do. I've run a chain of 14 POS's, I've had most T1 BPO's including cap ships, I've had and still have lots of T2 BPO's, but now what? I have the ISK to hand to screw whole markets in Jita for days at a time and have done, what else is there that's really going to float my boat? I have a fair chunk of idle ISK right now, and I'm really hoping for CCP to put something big into Empyrean Age for us industrialists. If not I'll probably take yet another EVE break, and I doubt I'll be the only one.
Conrad Rock Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.24 11:07:00 - [86] Shardale's idea and arguments are completely flawed. The rich have a tendency to keep getting richer, fortunately, this does not unbalance the game for the rest of us. We have a counter balance to every advantage a rich person has in Eve. Stupid amounts of isk are useless in most rich players' hands. New T3 stuff as isk sink? Yeah right! The rich will only monopolize it first because they have the funds and infrastructure to do so, and grow even richer faster Letting rich players; isk rot is a GOOD THING. That isk sits and does nothing and cannot harm Eve. They will get bored and likely be temped to sell it for real life money and lose it all as CCP catches them. That's the best isk sink.
Wooster Knite	Posted - 2008.05.24 13:24:00 - [87] Originally by: Shadarle The problem is not the money supply in the game... the problem is where the money ends up. The rich don't have anything to spend their money on really so they keep buying up more T2 bpo's and other such items and keep getting richer. ... It seems to me there has to be a way for the ultra-rich to spend their money. ... This !
Dranakolys Theurgy	Posted - 2008.05.24 14:54:00 - [88] Originally by: Shadarle The problem is not the money supply in the game... the problem is where the money ends up. The rich don't have anything to spend their money on really so they keep buying up more T2 bpo's and other such items and keep getting richer. The poorer players keep using their money to PvP, etc. All of the money is transitioning to the richer players. I wish there was a monthly tracking of what % of the total in game isk was held by the top 1, 5, 10, 25, 50% of the population, etc. Track this month to month and you can see which way the money is shifting for sure. It seems to me there has to be a way for the ultra-rich to spend their money. This seems like the place for T3 to come in. There could be weekly dutch auctions in game for 1 of each T3 BPO per week for half a year. I know they probably were not thinking of putting T3 BPO's in game but this would be a great way to pull out a massive amount of isk from the richest players. Not sure it would be good in the long run though. Money that just sits in a wallet and never gets spent might as well not be in the game at all for all the effect it has. Super rich people are not the problem here. _______________ Amused to Death
Terrorist X	Posted - 2008.05.24 16:16:00 - [89] What are you talking about, I make 5b isk per week and manage to spend it all with ease. Just join an alliance and try POS warfare
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.24 16:50:00 - [90] Originally by: Conrad Rock Letting rich players; isk rot is a GOOD THING. That isk sits and does nothing and cannot harm Eve. They will get bored and likely be temped to sell it for real life money and lose it all as CCP catches them. That's the best isk sink. Actually no it's not a good thing. ISK rot further inflates goods beyond their true asset value. Take a look at T2 BPOs for a classic example of this.

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