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Too much ISK around, wee need ISKs sinks stuff

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Atomos Darksun Infortunatus Eventus	Posted - 2008.05.25 23:23:00 - [91] Isk sink: Give people money. Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming
Rho'varo Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.05.26 01:32:00 - [92] Originally by: Atomos Darksun Isk sink: Give people money. That's not an ISK sink at all, it just (nominally) increases the velocity of the ISK. An ISK sink is a mechanism that removes ISK from the universal pilot economy, rather than just moving it around. Features & Ideas: Winding Up Learning Skills
tinufiel z-inc.	Posted - 2008.05.26 11:49:00 - [93] Edited by: tinufiel on 26/05/2008 11:49:53 i agree that there must be a isk sink for tech2 procucers like me. bringing Tech3 bpo or jove ships for huge isk price's will work but only for a short time. Also this would leave the less rich players in temptation to buy isk whit RL currency. This is of cource someting that would be bad for the game and also will give ccp lots of work again to track the sellers/buyers. Faction warfare is comming up. This is aparantly only for the PVP'ers. Why not include the rich tech2 producers, who do not pvp. This can be done in 2 ways; 1. We can donate isk to a empire faction (in my case the caldari state) In reward our corporation wil get faction standing and/or get civilian medals for suporting the faction. Whit a donation the Faction will gain more power. 2. we can also donate our tech2 goods to a faction. These goods then can be given to the one's who do the pvp for the factions as a reward. As a reward for the procucers can get civilian medals or get faction standing. This will allow the verry rich who do not pvp, to infuence the cource of the comming faction warfare. check
Lutien z-inc.	Posted - 2008.05.26 12:04:00 - [94] introduce personal lab and factorie slots inside empire stations, with or without the pos production and lab bonus. witch will be hugely expensive. I don't want to raise a new corp, place pos, transfer all goods, and maintain the pos ect. i am happy to pay for the privilage. or even better, intorduce emprie owned stations or outpost, even more expensive, and have to pay tax to the empire for protection.
Conrad Rock Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.26 19:34:00 - [95] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Actually no it's not a good thing. ISK rot further inflates goods beyond their true asset value. Take a look at T2 BPOs for a classic example of this. This is false, T2 BPO value has crashed. Officer modules as well. Only certain faction modules went up because they drop less and has nothing to do with inflation.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.27 03:31:00 - [96] Originally by: Conrad Rock Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Actually no it's not a good thing. ISK rot further inflates goods beyond their true asset value. Take a look at T2 BPOs for a classic example of this. This is false, T2 BPO value has crashed. Officer modules as well. Only certain faction modules went up because they drop less and has nothing to do with inflation. Ummm you weren't paying attention so obviously I'll have to spell it out. The current going rate for T2 BPOs is FAR beyond their true value leading to insane ROI amounts on them. IE they are inflated beyond their true value because there is literally to much f*cking isk in the game. I feel like I'm speaking to a brick wall sometimes.
tinufiel z-inc.	Posted - 2008.05.27 07:44:00 - [97] i know what you mean Kazzac Elentria, i stoped mention this fact for some time. check
tinufiel z-inc.	Posted - 2008.05.27 08:39:00 - [98] Edited by: tinufiel on 27/05/2008 08:40:24 make a new bounty system, where you can place bounty's on ship rather than pod's. To prevent people destroying there budies ships, you substract the bounty from the insurance. so Person A places a bounty on ship of person B, person C destroy's it, gains person A isk, person B gains insurance - the bounty of person A. conclusion, less isk by insurance or none. a ship with a bounty can not be re-insured or repaced or place in esrcow. check
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.05.27 08:57:00 - [99] Originally by: Wooster Knite Edited by: Wooster Knite on 17/05/2008 10:49:31 First: this is an alt ... After 2.5 years of playing, i have more than 40 bils cash and maybe 26 bils in assets. Im an industrial / trader and i dont see reasons to go on in my preferred way of play. I've even bought some T2 battleships and a jump freighter i dont need (just for the "new toy feel"), multi bills Caldari Navy Raven is getting dusty because missions are so boring. I'm playing for free (ETC) with more than one accounts, already paid one year in advance. My problem now is inflation, my billions are loosing worth. PvP is funny (living in 0,0 right now), but i can loose tons of PvP ships for the rest of my life and my wallet will not suffer that much. Dear CCP, think about something that take ISKs out of game, "skill time buying" or "standing buying" are ideas u should consider but you are free to think something else (it's your job). -------------------------------------------------------------- Avoid "give me ISK" posts, i will not give ISK away -------------------------------------------------------------- How the hell did you do that ? I never pass 500mil ... How about out of borredom you start a isk making school? for free of course as you are filthy rich. . Bounty system [red]I need isk! Accepting donations :) Renting this sig space. Open to take on various job
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.27 12:49:00 - [100] Originally by: tinufiel Edited by: tinufiel on 27/05/2008 08:40:24 make a new bounty system, where you can place bounty's on ship rather than pod's. To prevent people destroying there budies ships, you substract the bounty from the insurance. so Person A places a bounty on ship of person B, person C destroy's it, gains person A isk, person B gains insurance - the bounty of person A. conclusion, less isk by insurance or none. a ship with a bounty can not be re-insured or repaced or place in esrcow. I'll one up it.. Removal of insurance and bounties only collectible by concord or the factions at war. Meaning bounties are no longer a player business. All bounties go towards increasing the difficulty of someone traveling in space period. The closer you get to empire space and the higher your bounty the more difficulty in ships are sent after you. These ships drop no mods, leave no salvage, and have no bounty. There are only there to serve to kill you. There is of course room for abuse. But this could be a MASSIVE isk sink if structured correctly. I'm thinking on the order of billions a week could be taken out of the game easy.

Lt Graco	Posted - 2008.05.27 17:59:00 - [101] If I had that much ISK and nothing to do with it I would play God for a little while. Most likely i would hire out a few mercenary alliances to target one of the major alliances and see if i couldn't personally cause their downfall.
Zorrill	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:30:00 - [102] I'm not sure if this has been posted elsewhere previously, but what about introducing/increasing the value of NPC goods required to produce T2? You could scale it so that it equalled the insurance payout on T2 ships (~15%?) and a similar level on modules. Therefore it negates the isk faucet of T2 insurance, and turns T2 modules into a sink. Please note I know nothing about T2 production, just an idea
Pang Grohl Sudo Corp	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:49:00 - [103] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Conrad Rock Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Actually no it's not a good thing. ISK rot further inflates goods beyond their true asset value. Take a look at T2 BPOs for a classic example of this. This is false, T2 BPO value has crashed. Officer modules as well. Only certain faction modules went up because they drop less and has nothing to do with inflation. Ummm you weren't paying attention so obviously I'll have to spell it out. The current going rate for T2 BPOs is FAR beyond their true value leading to insane ROI amounts on them. IE they are inflated beyond their true value because there is literally to much fcking isk in the game. I feel like I'm speaking to a brick wall sometimes. No, T2 BPOs have longer break even times, because invention has increased the demand for T2 materials, which has reduced the margins on T2 selling by increasing costs and competitive pressure. Your problem isn't that there's too much ISK in game, it's that you have more ISK than you know what to do with. These distinctly different problems. My suggestion for everyone with this problem, is to figure out how to play EVE for something other than a high ISK score. Find an in game cause to support, and I can pretty much guarantee that you will quickly find that you don't have enough ISK to do what you want. BTW, it is impossible for there to be too much ISK in game as long as there's anything that can be purchased from NPCs in infinite quantities. ** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Mazzarins Demise	Posted - 2008.05.27 22:49:00 - [104] Don't forget that destroying ships is also another ISK sink. Sometimes very expensive items go with the ship.
Trebor Locke Round Table Enterprises Leather Rose Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.28 07:18:00 - [105] I can not possibly agree with adding more isk sinks especially in the areas of manufacturing. When you add in a sink, you'll actually inflate prices as it will now cost more in manufacturing and opportunity costs. Adding sinks doesn't actually solve any problem. There are enough sinks as is (though many would decline to believe so) to deal with rampant inflation which everyone is, for some ungodly reason, worried about. Instead, I would actually propose taking away isk sinks as opposed to adding them. This lowers production and opportunity costs greatly. Inflation is natural especially in highly volitile markets such as minerals. Right now a lot of money is being spent in EVE. If you want prices to go down, stop spending your money. Considering that no trader or producer would ever want to do such a thing, that is not going to happen. Let the market take its natural correction course and end this bickering. Prices will go down as more supply hits the market. No one wants to engadge in mining operations as they can be long and tedius so all the people who do enjoy industry will just make more money and advance in purchasing power until the next inflation spike. Just some knowledge from your local economic syndicate in the EVE universe :) -------------- CEO of Round Table Enterprises Chairman of the Leather Rose Syndicate Your friendly economic management and trade orginization.
Trebor Locke Round Table Enterprises Leather Rose Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.28 07:25:00 - [106] Originally by: Mazzarins Demise Don't forget that destroying ships is also another ISK sink. Sometimes very expensive items go with the ship. Destroying ships does not equate into destroying ships. The ships destruction is naturally calculated into the price, even if you think it isnt. It is ANTICIPATED that the ship will be blown up. This is why mineral and ship prices keep going up. All you did was move your isk by purchasing that nice shiny new ship to someone who felt is was an equalitive value. Need mathmatical proof of this? Ships require a few components to be made: 1) Rentable Facilities 2) Minerals in the same location. 3) A Producer with appropriate skill level to build the ship. You could say that Location + Minerals + Person = Ship. How are the minerals purchased? Well, they come from a miner. Miner + Ship = Minerals The miner is given money for his minerals as part of a fair exchange. Miner + Miner Being given ISK = Happy person with minerals ISK as a result stays in the game as the miner in the end took the isk as part of the transaction for the minerals. Minerals and Money are two separate things. Minerals are the building blocks and ISK is the means of exchange. As a result: Ship (Made with exchanged minerals) does not equal destruction of ISK. Any trader or marketeer who thinks otherwise needs to leave trade as they ovbiously don't know where their ISK is going. -------------- CEO of Round Table Enterprises Chairman of the Leather Rose Syndicate Your friendly economic management and trade orginization.
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.05.28 09:11:00 - [107] Go buy a titan mate, you can just about afford it. San Matari Official forums
Wooster Knite	Posted - 2008.05.28 10:54:00 - [108] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Go buy a titan mate, you can just about afford it. im an trader / industrial, Titans pilot are bonded to the ship, can never leave it and surely cannot produce ships and trade between empire regions and 0.0 ... At least i can buy a Titan BPO and research it, thats my job, but too much ISK blocked for too much time, i can earn more with my usual businesses
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2008.05.28 11:57:00 - [109] buy a titan and an alt to sit in your titan while you're trading. 40bill isnt a huge ammount of isk to be fair although it is more than i'm ever likly to have as i like to blow things up. Also if you're only a trader/industralist then what do you expect you only do things that result in more isk sure you can spend 40bill isk on making stuff and buying minerals but you'll end up with 40bill after you've sold things. If you only want to trade and make things then don't moan about having isk you're not doing anything that results in you having less.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.28 12:05:00 - [110] Originally by: Pang Grohl No, T2 BPOs have longer break even times, because invention has increased the demand for T2 materials, which has reduced the margins on T2 selling by increasing costs and competitive pressure. Whatever helps the BPO owners sleep better at night Quote: Your problem isn't that there's too much ISK in game, it's that you have more ISK than you know what to do with. These distinctly different problems. My suggestion for everyone with this problem, is to figure out how to play EVE for something other than a high ISK score. Find an in game cause to support, and I can pretty much guarantee that you will quickly find that you don't have enough ISK to do what you want. There is no end game for industrialists, no any desisive paths which determine which end game, nor are there sufficient enough sinks to allow either redistribution of wealth or bleeding of wealth out of that end game. The fact that this is lost on some people is really no surprise. And really... it's okay, I'm done talking to a brick wall anyway. Quote: BTW, it is impossible for there to be too much ISK in game as long as there's anything that can be purchased from NPCs in infinite quantities. Whatever helps you sleep at night

Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.28 13:37:00 - [111] Could someone please enlighten me how you are arriving at inflation, regarding the whole EVE economy? First we would need to define a reasonable price index. Without that you could just cherry pick one item, see the price is rising/falling and claim inflation/deflation. That's silly, of course. Since it is possible (at least for CCP) to create the statistics needed we could even go all out and define a price index: sum(V_i*P_i, for all traded items i in a fixed amount of time), where V_i = volume of traded item i and P_i = weighted average price of traded item i. Implication: Everything (items and ISK) not used in trades could as well not exist for the index. That's a good thing, since we are interested in prices! Looking at the whole T1 market I can not see this index rising at all, rather the opposite is true (hitting the lower border of production costs - or even going lower due to people not able to grasp the concept of opportunity costs). Still prices for some specific items rise steeply. For the most part they are extremely low volume and this more than offsets the high price in the index. On the other hand I completely agree with the OP's opinion on the lack of suitable goals for rich industrialists/traders/investors. If they do not want to take part in alliances they could as well stop playing, once their money-making machine works. Tradella
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.28 13:59:00 - [112] Originally by: Tradella Could someone please enlighten me how you are arriving at inflation, regarding the whole EVE economy? We cannot, because at current the EVE economy lives in a bubble. Kept in check by insurance payouts and NPC goods in infinite supply. This does however change the fact that the average price of limited goods have risen over time. Such as BPOs, moon minerals, faction items, et... If we were to remove the checks put in place right now (of which I am totally in favor of) you would see prices spiral way beyond their current index. Something that CCP is moving to do.. ..However. If these checks are removed WITHOUT also putting into place sinks and ways to sink the wealth around the community more you will see a broken economy faster than you can imagine. That is sorta the argument.. there is inflation and inflationary pressures but they are never seen because of the not so invisible fencing keeping the monster under control.
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.28 14:27:00 - [113] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria This does however change the fact that the average price of limited goods have risen over time. Such as BPOs, moon minerals, faction items, et... You probably missed a "not" in there. Anyway, as I have pointed out before, prices rising for a few specific items does not make an inflation. You have to look at the whole picture, i.e. you need a price index. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria If we were to remove the checks put in place right now (of which I am totally in favor of) you would see prices spiral way beyond their current index. Something that CCP is moving to do.. Could you please point out why e.g. Cruise Missile Launcher I should rise in price, even if NPC orders were removed? Where does the additional demand come from? Or where do the increased costs for production (thus affecting supply) come from? Even without NPC orders I do not expect mineral values to explode. Mining gives a lot of elasticity to the mineral markets. Tradella
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:00:00 - [114] Originally by: Tradella You probably missed a "not" in there. Anyway, as I have pointed out before, prices rising for a few specific items does not make an inflation. You have to look at the whole picture, i.e. you need a price index. I did miss a not, and we do have a price index. We know that no matter what happens trit will never go beyond 3.5 give or take .1 for demand. We knows this because NPC supplies items to create this artificial price. Hence NPC goods keep true inflationary pressures in check, which when coupled with continual faucets and then not enough high end sinks for the eventually redistribution of wealth to the wealthiest... well it's a problem. Quote: Could you please point out why e.g. Cruise Missile Launcher I should rise in price, even if NPC orders were removed? Where does the additional demand come from? Or where do the increased costs for production (thus affecting supply) come from? Even without NPC orders I do not expect mineral values to explode. Mining gives a lot of elasticity to the mineral markets. Additional demand does not occur, but the artificial cap on supply price is removed. Hence prices will rise and everything else along with it.
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:19:00 - [115] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I did miss a not, and we do have a price index. We know that no matter what happens trit will never go beyond 3.5 give or take .1 for demand. We knows this because NPC supplies items to create this artificial price. Sorry, but upper price limits are certainly not a price index. An index should give information about the current price levels, not about about border values. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Quote: Could you please point out why e.g. Cruise Missile Launcher I should rise in price, even if NPC orders were removed? Where does the additional demand come from? Or where do the increased costs for production (thus affecting supply) come from? Even without NPC orders I do not expect mineral values to explode. Mining gives a lot of elasticity to the mineral markets. Additional demand does not occur, but the artificial cap on supply price is removed. Hence prices will rise and everything else along with it. That is not a given, lacking additional conditions and discounting (temporary) speculation bubbles. This would e.g. be true if the price cap actually and currently would be (nearly) reached. If the cap is not reached now I see little reason (again, except for speculation) for them to rise at all. Clearly, for Trit the former cap had almost been reached (at least it was not too far off), so the removal had an influence (although how much of that is speculation still remains to be seen). But again, why should Trit prices explode? There are miners, there is profit to be had. In cases where the cap is not even in sight the removal should not have much influence whatsoever. Tradella
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:21:00 - [116] You have more money than you know what to do with. The constant influx of new money from faucets has you worried about devaluation of your current stock pile. You've pimped out a CNR for missions. I'm amused at how you contribute to the cause of the problem you see stealing all your wealth away. As a full time PvPer, I have to disagree here. I think the current faucet/sink structure, while unbalanced, is fine. As a pilot of T2 ships, I am in constant need of a good faucet to replace the sink my blown up ships generate. There are more than enough ways to lose wealth within Eve. Staying docked up to monitor your trades and production, or running missions in a multi bill CNR are a few ways to avoid these losses. Originally by: CCP Wrangler We won't laugh at you... to your face...
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:24:00 - [117] Originally by: Tradella In cases where the cap is not even in sight the removal should not have much influence whatsoever. Tradella Again.. I'm done talking to a brick wall about this. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:34:00 - [118] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Tradella In cases where the cap is not even in sight the removal should not have much influence whatsoever. Tradella Again.. I'm done talking to a brick wall about this. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Oh please, speak up! I am sorry if you see me as someone in the brick wall of denial. Please provide me with a good argument why item A, currently priced at 50 ISK, should have a price explosion just because the upper limit of 200 ISK has been removed. I genuinely intend to change my opinion on this matter if I can follow your reasoning. Tradella
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2008.05.28 21:46:00 - [119] OK please forgive me for this, this is not an epeen flashing moment, I really don't care about eve ISK right now as I'm really quite bored of it all. But this thread needs to be fleshed out with an example I think. I'm sure I'll get some flameage but meh. I've played EVE for 5 years, have about 100b in cash, 200b in easily liquidatable (word? it's late and i cba to think) assets, and a further 200-250b in T2 prints. There are MANY in EVE significantly richer than me, the vast majority of whom don't look at this forum afaik, and even more (many of whom do walk this forum) that have comparable wealth. All I do and have ever done in EVE is play the commercial side of the game. I say commercial rather than industrial because I don't care whether I'm building or mining or trading or what, I do what I do to make money faster than the next guy. I am very competitive and wealth is my goal. I guess I'm the money-motivated equivalent of Genghis Khan or sommat. Anyway the point is I have an obscene amount of ISK, there are LOADS of people like me, and we have nothing to spend/gamble/fritter away/invest the money on. Because CCP have not added any high-end industrial/commercial goals of any consequence in YEARS. That's the issue here, there is no 'out' for the isk that is pooling in the hands of the dedicated commercialist. The more money the likes of me have, the more I can accumulate, the bigger the issue becomes. Maybe CCP don't care, maybe they think that people like me will leave EVE at which point the ISK disappears, I really don't know. I don't really have a valuable contribution in terms of suggestion tbh I'm happy to admit. I've spent too much time making this point and I'm a bit bored of it. I just wanted to add a little reality to this conversation as I get the impression that most reading this thread don't realise how deep this issue is. My $0.02 Leo
Heroldyn	Posted - 2008.05.28 22:56:00 - [120] make a donation to an npc corporation. as far as i can tell, that isk will be just gone and not actually added towards the wallet of the npc corporation and thus also not influencing their sell/buy orders.



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