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![Killerhound Killerhound](https://images.evetech.net/characters/350799554/portrait?size=64)
Killerhound
Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.17 23:34:00 -
[1]
Dear CCP, dear players,
in the light of all this new an shiny content that is being added, I was still very curious and actually it's the most important point for me, what are you guys at CCP going to implement at next patch for the poor guys that have got a black op ship especially the Widow in may case.
Separat Fuel Bay ? Additional Technologies ? One of the ideas discussed ? Something brand new?
Well as many of us have bought this ship when it came out and that are now very disapointed of its effective capabilities.
Thanks for any information...
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![Avoheja Avoheja](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1811517593/portrait?size=64)
Avoheja
Caldari The Venture Co.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 23:51:00 -
[2]
Panther r secks macheen.
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![Vaal Erit Vaal Erit](https://images.evetech.net/characters/720103982/portrait?size=64)
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.05.17 23:59:00 -
[3]
Back Ops suck. Kind of like how AFs suck. Do not hold your breath for a fix.
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![Amastat Amastat](https://images.evetech.net/characters/975523299/portrait?size=64)
Amastat
Caldari Omegatech
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Posted - 2008.05.18 00:01:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Vaal Erit Back Ops suck. Kind of like how AFs suck. Do not hold your breath for a fix.
Last I heard about AF's CCP was well aware of how much they suck and were going to fix it, lol. ____________________
"All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the |
![Vaal Erit Vaal Erit](https://images.evetech.net/characters/720103982/portrait?size=64)
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.05.18 00:04:00 -
[5]
Yes and how long have AFs been out before CCP have aknowledged that they need a fix? As I said, don't hold your breath.
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![Lord WarATron Lord WarATron](https://images.evetech.net/characters/659477430/portrait?size=64)
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.18 00:04:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/05/2008 00:04:46 The whole Black ops concept is obsolete intodays pvp.
Yeah you set a trap, fire a cyno and portal your recons though. Big deal since the enemy will nano away since you cannot portal dictors.
"Ah but you can jumpdrive a bunch of Redeemers to the cyno and gank!!". Till you relise you would be better off jumpdriveing carriers who have more range, more damage and can actually fit a tank. Then you relise that Fitting a redeemer is like fitting a omen.... With Heavy Beams.
I think CCP really needs to tell us what role they want these ships to use. If its for sneaking past gatecamps, well, you need to get a recon past in the first place to setup a cyno so it defeats the point. Better off nanoing past.
But wait, your enemy can simply bridge in front so its not exactly that special anymore. Like I said, I think this whole class needs a rethink since the type of role it could be used for no longer exists in todays pvp. --
Billion Isk Mission |
![Lord Evangelian Lord Evangelian](https://images.evetech.net/characters/248172196/portrait?size=64)
Lord Evangelian
Gallente The White Mantle
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Posted - 2008.05.18 00:15:00 -
[7]
I love the black ops BS...I use it for Solo PVP and sneaking around. I have my alt warp in in a Covert Helios and create the cyno, then I jump through... Luanch a few probes scan the system... find a target, then warp te sin in...
I just wish I could warp cloaked, as then I would just apear in the belt....
BOBS are good at taking out ships that are smaller than BS, if it is a BS you need more Power....
I think it fits my role perfectly... --------------------
The White Mantle |
![Amastat Amastat](https://images.evetech.net/characters/975523299/portrait?size=64)
Amastat
Caldari Omegatech
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Posted - 2008.05.18 00:16:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/05/2008 00:04:46 The whole Black ops concept is obsolete intodays pvp.
Yeah you set a trap, fire a cyno and portal your recons though. Big deal since the enemy will nano away since you cannot portal dictors.
"Ah but you can jumpdrive a bunch of Redeemers to the cyno and gank!!". Till you relise you would be better off jumpdriveing carriers who have more range, more damage and can actually fit a tank. Then you relise that Fitting a redeemer is like fitting a omen.... With Heavy Beams.
I think CCP really needs to tell us what role they want these ships to use. If its for sneaking past gatecamps, well, you need to get a recon past in the first place to setup a cyno so it defeats the point. Better off nanoing past.
But wait, your enemy can simply bridge in front so its not exactly that special anymore. Like I said, I think this whole class needs a rethink since the type of role it could be used for no longer exists in todays pvp.
Yea, at this point they are super specialized - and haven't really found their place quite yet. I think in theory Blackops could be a good gank ship - so long u have a cyno pilot to act as bait.
The Sin for example, thought I don't know if anyone has tried, could potentially be made into a large Ishtar. You can get it to go at 2500-3000m/s or higher - and it turns on a dime. It can actually with proper skills acquire speed in less than than a Ishtar can. The hp is also superior to a Ishtar, but it's resistances aren't as great. It also has much better slots, you should be able to with great ease deck the thing out with nos's on it's 7 highs, and it has the ability to cloak and escape a bad situation if need be, and jump out.
Only issue is the Sin can't lock nearly as fast, and couldn't go nearly as fast as the Ishtar with equal skills/fit could go.
Well - thats the thoery at least, havn't seen anyone try it yet.
The Widow seems pretty powerful too, basically the Manticores big poppa, but also with a ECM array on it, and a jump drive. I think these are probably the most popular Blackops atm however I havn't really seen them used before yet. ____________________
"All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the |
![Lord Evangelian Lord Evangelian](https://images.evetech.net/characters/248172196/portrait?size=64)
Lord Evangelian
Gallente The White Mantle
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Posted - 2008.05.18 00:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Amastat
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/05/2008 00:04:46 The whole Black ops concept is obsolete intodays pvp.
Yeah you set a trap, fire a cyno and portal your recons though. Big deal since the enemy will nano away since you cannot portal dictors.
"Ah but you can jumpdrive a bunch of Redeemers to the cyno and gank!!". Till you relise you would be better off jumpdriveing carriers who have more range, more damage and can actually fit a tank. Then you relise that Fitting a redeemer is like fitting a omen.... With Heavy Beams.
I think CCP really needs to tell us what role they want these ships to use. If its for sneaking past gatecamps, well, you need to get a recon past in the first place to setup a cyno so it defeats the point. Better off nanoing past.
But wait, your enemy can simply bridge in front so its not exactly that special anymore. Like I said, I think this whole class needs a rethink since the type of role it could be used for no longer exists in todays pvp.
Yea, at this point they are super specialized - and haven't really found their place quite yet. I think in theory Blackops could be a good gank ship - so long u have a cyno pilot to act as bait.
The Sin for example, thought I don't know if anyone has tried, could potentially be made into a large Ishtar. You can get it to go at 2500-3000m/s or higher - and it turns on a dime. It can actually with proper skills acquire speed in less than than a Ishtar can. The hp is also superior to a Ishtar, but it's resistances aren't as great. It also has much better slots, you should be able to with great ease deck the thing out with nos's on it's 7 highs, and it has the ability to cloak and escape a bad situation if need be, and jump out.
Only issue is the Sin can't lock nearly as fast, and couldn't go nearly as fast as the Ishtar with equal skills/fit could go.
Well - thats the thoery at least, havn't seen anyone try it yet.
The Widow seems pretty powerful too, basically the Manticores big poppa, but also with a ECM array on it, and a jump drive. I think these are probably the most popular Blackops atm however I havn't really seen them used before yet.
This is my point...
I use mine like a NOS/Neut DOmi with droneage.. --------------------
The White Mantle |
![Amastat Amastat](https://images.evetech.net/characters/975523299/portrait?size=64)
Amastat
Caldari Omegatech
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Posted - 2008.05.18 00:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lord Evangelian
Originally by: Amastat
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/05/2008 00:04:46 The whole Black ops concept is obsolete intodays pvp.
Yeah you set a trap, fire a cyno and portal your recons though. Big deal since the enemy will nano away since you cannot portal dictors.
"Ah but you can jumpdrive a bunch of Redeemers to the cyno and gank!!". Till you relise you would be better off jumpdriveing carriers who have more range, more damage and can actually fit a tank. Then you relise that Fitting a redeemer is like fitting a omen.... With Heavy Beams.
I think CCP really needs to tell us what role they want these ships to use. If its for sneaking past gatecamps, well, you need to get a recon past in the first place to setup a cyno so it defeats the point. Better off nanoing past.
But wait, your enemy can simply bridge in front so its not exactly that special anymore. Like I said, I think this whole class needs a rethink since the type of role it could be used for no longer exists in todays pvp.
Yea, at this point they are super specialized - and haven't really found their place quite yet. I think in theory Blackops could be a good gank ship - so long u have a cyno pilot to act as bait.
The Sin for example, thought I don't know if anyone has tried, could potentially be made into a large Ishtar. You can get it to go at 2500-3000m/s or higher - and it turns on a dime. It can actually with proper skills acquire speed in less than than a Ishtar can. The hp is also superior to a Ishtar, but it's resistances aren't as great. It also has much better slots, you should be able to with great ease deck the thing out with nos's on it's 7 highs, and it has the ability to cloak and escape a bad situation if need be, and jump out.
Only issue is the Sin can't lock nearly as fast, and couldn't go nearly as fast as the Ishtar with equal skills/fit could go.
Well - thats the thoery at least, havn't seen anyone try it yet.
The Widow seems pretty powerful too, basically the Manticores big poppa, but also with a ECM array on it, and a jump drive. I think these are probably the most popular Blackops atm however I havn't really seen them used before yet.
This is my point...
I use mine like a NOS/Neut DOmi with droneage..
That sounds very sexy. Are you in game? If so, message me - I have a friend who is getting a Sin and he was interested in that fit; we've been trying to find someone who has used it before. ____________________
"All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the |
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![Sevan Rax Sevan Rax](https://images.evetech.net/characters/245216385/portrait?size=64)
Sevan Rax
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.05.18 01:14:00 -
[11]
People have mentioned that the Black-Ops have come into the game "pre-nerfed" but I'm left with the rather uncomfortable feeling this is just wishful thinking and that CCP, will leave these ships to be a skill based time-sink for quite some time to come.
The main problem here, as I'm led to understand... is that they are unable to carry enough fuel for the job they are designed for and with a rather limited range.
Secondly, they are only capable of fitting at best, the ICD II that seems a bit of a cop-out. Which again flys in the face of it's 'supposed' intended role.
But then again, Recon ships in general are pretty much anything but. They are mostly relegated to being gang support entities, rather than the front line shock troops specialized in information superiority, which is what you might expect from a Recon, Covert Ops or Black Ops unit.
All that said, many things must be sacrificed to the game gods of balance and capability. So at least on my second point I can see the sense in the decision, balance wise, although I can't help but think it's a failure of creativity and/or ability.
The fix for these spectacular concepts in ship design, lies in the hands of CCP but I hope whatever they do... they do while I still have hair.
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![Viqtoria Viqtoria](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1305091429/portrait?size=64)
Viqtoria
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.18 01:27:00 -
[12]
yes i believe in racial equality in the police force.
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![Nova Fox Nova Fox](https://images.evetech.net/characters/656055035/portrait?size=64)
Nova Fox
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.05.18 01:31:00 -
[13]
Last i heard was that they are planning on no longer allowing jumps or friendly cynos in jammed systems regardless what provides it (ship or pos) and that they where going to let the covert jump portal be able to open up in jammed systems if they are going to extend what kind of ships allowed is uncertain.
New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister |
![Beef Hardslab Beef Hardslab](https://images.evetech.net/characters/249177775/portrait?size=64)
Beef Hardslab
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.18 01:36:00 -
[14]
The only things I'd really like to see modified would be the seperate fuel bay, and, one that really confuses me, the lack of a reduction in the time in which you can decloak/recloak. WTF? Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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![mama guru mama guru](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1238473646/portrait?size=64)
mama guru
Gallente Contraband Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.18 01:38:00 -
[15]
Ofcourse you can nano the sin. But to do so costs alot of isk or you'll be a 2300m/s isk sink.
EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
![Jason Edwards Jason Edwards](https://images.evetech.net/characters/773392121/portrait?size=64)
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.18 01:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sevan Rax People have mentioned that the Black-Ops have come into the game "pre-nerfed" but I'm left with the rather uncomfortable feeling this is just wishful thinking and that CCP, will leave these ships to be a skill based time-sink for quite some time to come.
No the devs have outright said they did this.
The boost is coming soon. I think they like the fuel bay idea. They have however commented that they dont want to make the fuelbay too large or else they may introduce a ship which actually is used as a fuel transport rather then using industrials or whatever.
I think they need to boost the target locking range a little bit. Such that without mods you can lock to about 85km with max skills. Which is what the base ship does. At least for basic ship.
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![Beef Hardslab Beef Hardslab](https://images.evetech.net/characters/249177775/portrait?size=64)
Beef Hardslab
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.18 01:46:00 -
[17]
Oh, also forgot to mention - a reduction in the scan res penalty for fitting a cloak would be nice. Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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![Siberys Siberys](https://images.evetech.net/characters/331747644/portrait?size=64)
Siberys
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Posted - 2008.05.18 02:04:00 -
[18]
Get a maurauder and stop complaining about how much they suck.
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![MilowFV MilowFV](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1841240154/portrait?size=64)
MilowFV
Echo Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.18 02:06:00 -
[19]
I ve alway found it interesting when folks run multiply accounts and tell you how to solo. True your only one person, but using multiply accounts to achieve a goal in game isnt really solo game play if you ask me.
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![Liang Nuren Liang Nuren](https://images.evetech.net/characters/835925604/portrait?size=64)
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.18 02:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Siberys Get a maurauder and stop complaining about how much they suck.
Yes, so you can die to my 5 light ECM drone Rupture. :)
-Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
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![Dal Thrax Dal Thrax](https://images.evetech.net/characters/661105297/portrait?size=64)
Dal Thrax
Multiverse Corporation Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.05.18 02:20:00 -
[21]
The best use I've heard for a black ops is to jump bridge POS gunners into a system with a heavy gate camp. Of course you still need to get a covops for the cyno around the camp (either by logging it in system or sneaking through), which defeats some of the utility.
Originally by: HEXXX In all seriousness; I think I made a miscalculation originally. . . We either need to fix this or fix our advertising.
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![OffBeaT OffBeaT](https://images.evetech.net/characters/375927766/portrait?size=64)
OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.05.18 02:31:00 -
[22]
man, what the hell good is a stealth bomber or black ops ship that cant stay cloaked coming through a gate.. i gota un-cloak too cloak. i am just pirate food doing that, they lock faster then i cloak. ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif) ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif) ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
feaken joke these ships..
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![Sidewayzracer Sidewayzracer](https://images.evetech.net/characters/806160114/portrait?size=64)
Sidewayzracer
Caldari Murder Training Facilites
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Posted - 2008.05.18 03:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: OffBeaT man, what the hell good is a stealth bomber or black ops ship that cant stay cloaked coming through a gate.. i gota un-cloak too cloak. i am just pirate food doing that, they lock faster then i cloak. ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif) ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif) ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
feaken joke these ships..
Your doing it wronge......![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
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![Carth Reynolds Carth Reynolds](https://images.evetech.net/characters/880310461/portrait?size=64)
Carth Reynolds
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Posted - 2008.05.18 04:24:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Carth Reynolds on 18/05/2008 04:24:19
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![Erotic Irony Erotic Irony](https://images.evetech.net/characters/281011440/portrait?size=64)
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.05.18 04:28:00 -
[25]
Blackops that shoot out AFs would be pretty neat. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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![Cuebick Cuebick](https://images.evetech.net/characters/918015180/portrait?size=64)
Cuebick
Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.05.18 04:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Viqtoria yes i believe in racial equality in the police force.
lol - |
![Caligulus Caligulus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/725352339/portrait?size=64)
Caligulus
Legion of Lost Souls Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.05.18 06:04:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Caligulus on 18/05/2008 06:04:32
Originally by: Amastat
Originally by: Vaal Erit Back Ops suck. Kind of like how AFs suck. Do not hold your breath for a fix.
Last I heard about AF's CCP was well aware of how much they suck and were going to fix it, lol.
I wonder if their spouses hear that same line...hmmm. ------------------------------------------------- **** You're out of your mind!
**** Well that's between me and my mind. |
![OffBeaT OffBeaT](https://images.evetech.net/characters/375927766/portrait?size=64)
OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.05.18 06:35:00 -
[28]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 18/05/2008 06:36:36
Originally by: Sidewayzracer
Originally by: OffBeaT man, what the hell good is a stealth bomber or black ops ship that cant stay cloaked coming through a gate.. i gota un-cloak too cloak. i am just pirate food doing that, they lock faster then i cloak. ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif) ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif) ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
feaken joke these ships..
Your doing it wronge......![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
realy! why dont you tell me how too do it right..
i jump through a gate with a stealth bomber look up 10 pirates now tell me what to do with 3 intersepters charging at me full out. re-cloak looking at a worp bubble.. ![Laughing](/images/icon_lol.gif) oh wait i can use a alt too jump through first right. oh wait! i can put some stabs on.. stabs on bubble camps dont seem too helpful..
oh wait, i dont realy need a steath bomber do i with alts too take all the risk for me..
we need stealth ships again for what i can do in evryday ships.. ![Confused](/images/icon_confused.gif)
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![Beef Hardslab Beef Hardslab](https://images.evetech.net/characters/249177775/portrait?size=64)
Beef Hardslab
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.18 07:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: OffBeaT Edited by: OffBeaT on 18/05/2008 06:36:36
Originally by: Sidewayzracer
Originally by: OffBeaT man, what the hell good is a stealth bomber or black ops ship that cant stay cloaked coming through a gate.. i gota un-cloak too cloak. i am just pirate food doing that, they lock faster then i cloak. ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif) ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif) ![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
feaken joke these ships..
Your doing it wronge......![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
realy! why dont you tell me how too do it right..
i jump through a gate with a stealth bomber look up 10 pirates now tell me what to do with 3 intersepters charging at me full out. re-cloak looking at a worp bubble.. ![Laughing](/images/icon_lol.gif) oh wait i can use a alt too jump through first right. oh wait! i can put some stabs on.. stabs on bubble camps dont seem too helpful..
oh wait, i dont realy need a steath bomber do i with alts too take all the risk for me..
we need stealth ships again for what i can do in evryday ships.. ![Confused](/images/icon_confused.gif)
You jump in. You are gatecloaked. You see bad people on the gate. You pick somewhere to align to (preferably a safe), doubleclick towards it to align, and instantly hit your cloak. You appear for a fraction of a second. The inties fly towards you. By the time they get close enough to be a threat, you should have plenty of speed to decloak and instantly warp. Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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![OffBeaT OffBeaT](https://images.evetech.net/characters/375927766/portrait?size=64)
OffBeaT
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Posted - 2008.05.18 08:23:00 -
[30]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 18/05/2008 08:23:51 you forgot the worp bubbles that seem to be at every choke point to 00 systems these days..
yea, your plan might work with a few ships on me but not with more then one intersepter charging at me. they are not that far from me..
i think ill stick with the boring alt jump and look since the ship im in cant seem too do its job right witch is inter a system unseen.. ![ugh](/images/icon_ugh.gif)
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![Sevan Rax Sevan Rax](https://images.evetech.net/characters/245216385/portrait?size=64)
Sevan Rax
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.05.18 08:37:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Beef Hardslab
You jump in. You are gatecloaked. You see bad people on the gate. You pick somewhere to align to (preferably a safe), doubleclick towards it to align, and instantly hit your cloak. You appear for a fraction of a second. The inties fly towards you. By the time they get close enough to be a threat, you should have plenty of speed to decloak and instantly warp.
In a Black-Ops? with inties steaming full tilt? I might have what, 2 maybe 3 seconds at best before they are all over me like hoookers on a street corner. Then what?
Even in a cov-ops it can be a dicey business on a bubbled gate... A recon 50/50 depending on numbers.
A Black-Ops will go down hard in such a situation, unless the campers are asleep at the wheel, which granted, does happen occasionally. ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
But certainly not often enough to risk half a billion in assets.
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![Beef Hardslab Beef Hardslab](https://images.evetech.net/characters/249177775/portrait?size=64)
Beef Hardslab
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.18 09:11:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Sevan Rax
Originally by: Beef Hardslab
You jump in. You are gatecloaked. You see bad people on the gate. You pick somewhere to align to (preferably a safe), doubleclick towards it to align, and instantly hit your cloak. You appear for a fraction of a second. The inties fly towards you. By the time they get close enough to be a threat, you should have plenty of speed to decloak and instantly warp.
In a Black-Ops? with inties steaming full tilt? I might have what, 2 maybe 3 seconds at best before they are all over me like hoookers on a street corner. Then what?
Even in a cov-ops it can be a dicey business on a bubbled gate... A recon 50/50 depending on numbers.
A Black-Ops will go down hard in such a situation, unless the campers are asleep at the wheel, which granted, does happen occasionally. ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
But certainly not often enough to risk half a billion in assets.
Eh, I was mainly talking about stealths, as he said stealths or blackops, and was thinking lowsec, not 0.0.
As far as getting in unseen - that's why you have a scout in a covops sneak in and covertly cyno your arse in there hehe. Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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![Glarion Garnier Glarion Garnier](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1324948841/portrait?size=64)
Glarion Garnier
Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2008.05.18 09:22:00 -
[33]
Sepperate fuel bay would be good. _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
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![slothe slothe](https://images.evetech.net/characters/146104495/portrait?size=64)
slothe
Caldari Murky Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.18 10:32:00 -
[34]
they need imho
bigger cargohold / seperate fuel bay better resists no lock time penalty using cloaks
at least to be useful
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![Damir36 Damir36](https://images.evetech.net/characters/361628899/portrait?size=64)
Damir36
Gallente PPN United Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.05.19 08:29:00 -
[35]
Same as always, whine without flying that ship or if you own it without thinking it through.
Why should you be in a Gatecamp with a Black-Ops in the first time? Just get an Alt on Covert Ops and Covert Ops Cyno (30 Secs undetectable Cyno is great) and you can go nearly everywhere with this Ship.
A Sin in a Neut Setup is nasty to lots of Ships if you have the Droneskills to go with it and you can Choose your fights.
A Sin can go over 1000 m/s cloaked if you choose to nano it.
OK, Black Ops have a few Problems, Tank not as good as the Tech I Ship, Some difficulty to fit with PG and CPU. Fuelconsumption (and Rank) of the Jump Portal Generator. Cargobay divided by Capboosters and Jumpfuel if you use a Netsetup, but think about the gains.
The Sin has an Agilitybonus, turns really fast and even if you ended up in a Gatecamp you would have an excellent Chance of escaping.
An Excellent Ship with lots of possibilities. From Low-Sec ganking (waiting 5 Km below the first Belt in a System with no targeting delay) to Gatecamps to dropping it directly on a Hunter when your Alt recon opens a Covert Cyno.
And there a more useful things to do with it, won`t tell them all Just think a bit about this Ships, get one and try diffrent Setups.
Obviously I can only talk about the Sin but thats definitly the best Ship I had below Capitals (and had the most fun with). Ok, fully fittet this ship costs the same as a carrier, but you can use it more often for fun.
GrnŻe Damir
Beware: German Link!:) Deutschprachige Piloten gesucht |
![Thathys Thathys](https://images.evetech.net/characters/676061436/portrait?size=64)
Thathys
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Posted - 2008.05.21 17:07:00 -
[36]
Black ops should be able to jump without cynofield being up, making a jump without support,would truly make it a Black ops ship.
Just give it some restrictions like: *Needs to "recharge" jumpdrive untill it's able to jump. (2-5 min?) *Separate larger fuel bay,where you only can put in fuel. (No transport possibility)
I would love to take the Widow out in 0.0,but find it redicullus that my Alt has to lead the way and hold hands all the way.
Would be nice with more specialiced ships,the ships we have i find so many of them main stream and booring. Example:Would be nice to have different Raven hulls that would come with different bonuses and slots,so that warfare truly would be a risky bussines.
Now,when u meet a 2 year player he knows what u have.Its either tis or that loadout......
Just some thaghts,dont kill me! ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
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![El Yatta El Yatta](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1270917868/portrait?size=64)
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.05.21 17:29:00 -
[37]
The hulls themselves are very nice, great slot layouts and T1 bonuses. There are a few balance issues in between them, as the Redeemer and Sin have dreadful t2 bonus. If that was laser optimal and ... something (not sure what, drone bay not needed, drone control, the ishtars bonus, utterly useless, maybe turret falloff or rep amount? Drone speed? Second drone damage bonus? EW?) then that would be very nice.
The class as a whole is begging for the fuel bay and a more efficient Covert Portal, as well as the covert cyno being able to be used in cynojammed systems. They also need no scan res penalty from cloaks. No further weapon hardpoints or resists are really needed. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
![vanBuskirk vanBuskirk](https://images.evetech.net/characters/772846357/portrait?size=64)
vanBuskirk
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Posted - 2008.05.21 17:30:00 -
[38]
"Black ops should be able to jump without cynofield being up, making a jump without support,would truly make it a Black ops ship."
Can't be done. Why? Simple. There are some areas of space CCP don't want us in - or if you want to roleplay it, the secret Polaris organisation and the Jove don't want us in. Cyno-less jump messes that up.
In addition, this would make it just about impossible to hold space. Enemy has 2 or 3 system deep series of gatecamps, and a cyno jammer in every system they want to protect? No problem - just jump in a blackops on the other side of their territory, then your fleet hits them from the rear. If the cyno you use for that is a covert one, then they won't see it coming, either. No player organisation has the resources to protect every system in their territory and surroundings. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
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![LoKesh LoKesh](https://images.evetech.net/characters/980197902/portrait?size=64)
LoKesh
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.05.21 18:01:00 -
[39]
What if the black-ops ships had a built in gang bonus like titans? Just make it apply only to recons - and have it relate to combat (as the recon bonuses cover their roles quite well)... so increased shield, increased armor, increased damage/rof, etc.
This way you buff the black-ops in the role of supporting and helping to field recon gangs.
xFoundation, xVC, xRISE Proudly serving Skunk-Works |
![Erotic Irony Erotic Irony](https://images.evetech.net/characters/281011440/portrait?size=64)
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.05.21 18:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: LoKesh What if the black-ops ships had a built in gang bonus like titans? Just make it apply only to recons - and have it relate to combat (as the recon bonuses cover their roles quite well)... so increased shield, increased armor, increased damage/rof, etc.
This way you buff the black-ops in the role of supporting and helping to field recon gangs.
its a good thing we don't have 500k isk in leadership skills that do this for all ships already
ohwai- ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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![Guillame Herschel Guillame Herschel](https://images.evetech.net/characters/251682479/portrait?size=64)
Guillame Herschel
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.21 18:45:00 -
[41]
There's one other thing the Black Ops needs aside from the bigger cargo/separate fuel tank, no scan res penalty, and slightly more jump range per fuel unit.
The Covert Ops or Recon ship deploying the Covert Cynosural Field Generator should be able to do so with the Covert Ops cloak engaged.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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![Guvante Guvante](https://images.evetech.net/characters/308670296/portrait?size=64)
Guvante
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2008.05.21 19:19:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Guvante on 21/05/2008 19:22:47
Originally by: Guillame Herschel There's one other thing the Black Ops needs aside from the bigger cargo/separate fuel tank, no scan res penalty, and slightly more jump range per fuel unit.
The Covert Ops or Recon ship deploying the Covert Cynosural Field Generator should be able to do so with the Covert Ops cloak engaged.
Why should they be able to do that? All you have to do is go to a safe and insta jump everyone in, there is no way they will break the safe before everyone is cloaked back up if you do it right...
Unless you want to jump straight onto an enemy force, in which case, how does it make role play sense that your gang mate can lock onto you light years away, but the dude 5 meters away can't even see you?
EDIT: From what I have heard on the ship, a cargo bonus should be enough to make it worthwhile (Either to the ship or more likely a fuel bay) And no Covert Ops for them, having someone be 1km away shooting BS sized guns and the other nasty stuff Black Ops do is kind of OP, at least without Covert Ops cloak you can see them for a second or two to see them before they hit you (Heck if you have a nice warp in point you probably hit faster without the Covert Ops cloak since no targeting delay)
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![Erotic Irony Erotic Irony](https://images.evetech.net/characters/281011440/portrait?size=64)
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.05.22 00:47:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Guvante EDIT: From what I have heard on the ship, a cargo bonus should be enough to make it worthwhile (Either to the ship or more likely a fuel bay) And no Covert Ops for them, having someone be 1km away shooting BS sized guns and the other nasty stuff Black Ops do is kind of OP, at least without Covert Ops cloak you can see them for a second or two to see them before they hit you (Heck if you have a nice warp in point you probably hit faster without the Covert Ops cloak since no targeting delay)
yeah, sorry, what you've heard is wrong and what you think is wrong |
![White Ronin White Ronin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/496908200/portrait?size=64)
White Ronin
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Posted - 2008.05.22 12:48:00 -
[44]
Since it will go 'puff' real quick under any focused fire, it had better get more then an expanded cargo bay to make risking 500 mil isk a pop worth it.... not counting the actual fittings. Honestly. For 500 mil you cant give me the same t2 resists that other t2 ships have? And it loses all suprise bonus cause by the time it locks all the ships in system have mated and reproduced so now you have twice as many ships to fight.
What is so wrong with a solo pwnmobile considering its high costs?
Cause as a fleet or group based tool it really sucks.
And since we have so few solo focused ships why not these? Hell, tweak it a little and make them deep space recon/exploration. At least you would have people use them.
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![Darahk J'olonar Darahk J'olonar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/769022080/portrait?size=64)
Darahk J'olonar
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.05.22 13:24:00 -
[45]
Originally by: slothe they need imho
bigger cargohold / seperate fuel bay better resists no lock time penalty using cloaks
at least to be useful
Agreed with the above tweaks except for better resists. Keep them the same and add the ability to warp while cloaked and tweak the jump range a little. Other than that Slothe pretty much nailed it. A Black Ops BS in its' current form is really no better than a cloaked (insert name of BS here). It can only hold enough fuel for a one way trip, duh. That and geee I am a black ops BS lemme sneak up on the enemy and surprise! lock time penalty when using a cloak. G H E Y
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![Lord WarATron Lord WarATron](https://images.evetech.net/characters/659477430/portrait?size=64)
Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.22 14:31:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 22/05/2008 14:34:35 Erm, all thes black ops fix's are like discussing what type of bandage to put on a broken leg. None of the solutions will do anything since they do not look at what the problem really is. And the problem is that real world pvp has obsoleted these ships.
I got a Redeemer sitting ready to go. What exactly am I meant to do with it that is not a comedy? What real world scenarios will my Redeemer make a difference? They even suck at traps since for almost the same price, combat carriers do a better job. They cannot portal hics & dictors so trapping a nanogang with just a couple of reacons is not really that realistic either. Its just a glorified Battlecruiser with a BS ship model after all.
Anyone tell me how I am meant to use this ship in real world pvp assuming it got fuel "fixed"? --
Billion Isk Mission |
![Darahk J'olonar Darahk J'olonar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/769022080/portrait?size=64)
Darahk J'olonar
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.05.22 14:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 22/05/2008 14:34:35 Erm, all thes black ops fix's are like discussing what type of bandage to put on a broken leg. None of the solutions will do anything since they do not look at what the problem really is. And the problem is that real world pvp has obsoleted these ships.
I got a Redeemer sitting ready to go. What exactly am I meant to do with it that is not a comedy? What real world scenarios will my Redeemer make a difference? They even suck at traps since for almost the same price, combat carriers do a better job. They cannot portal hics & dictors so trapping a nanogang with just a couple of reacons is not really that realistic either. Its just a glorified Battlecruiser with a BS ship model after all.
Anyone tell me how I am meant to use this ship in real world pvp assuming it got fuel "fixed"?
It needs more than just fuel fixed to be useful. It has to at a minimum, besides getting its' fuel fixed, have the ability to warp cloaked and not have a scan res. penalty when cloaked. This would at least make it worth something. Otherwise I agree that in its' current state a combat carrier is far more useful and the same price. Force Recons even trump it in many situations as well at less than 1/5 the cost fit.
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![diabolic clone diabolic clone](https://images.evetech.net/characters/222741162/portrait?size=64)
diabolic clone
Anomaly Collective
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:49:00 -
[48]
I put in a lot of training and isk to manufacture and fly Black ops. Didn't seem worth the time investment even if I knew factional warfare was coming out soon (tm) I can't see a logical use for the black ops. a small dedicated group with a BO could probably roll a lazy gate camp, but it'll be easier and far more efficient/cheap to just pile up a regular gate camp (alt scout in the next system to see whats coming in optional). Is it suppose to cloak and maintain sniper range at a camp? For a battleship they look like they will crumple if someone looks at it wrong. Factional warfare looks nice at least making me consider renewing my subscription so I don't have to bother with war dec fees and cutting out most of the drama that is attracted by pvp which would go a far way toward refreshing the game for me.
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![Erotic Irony Erotic Irony](https://images.evetech.net/characters/281011440/portrait?size=64)
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:57:00 -
[49]
___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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![Guillame Herschel Guillame Herschel](https://images.evetech.net/characters/251682479/portrait?size=64)
Guillame Herschel
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.22 18:54:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Guvante
Originally by: Guillame Herschel The Covert Ops or Recon ship deploying the Covert Cynosural Field Generator should be able to do so with the Covert Ops cloak engaged.
Why should they be able to do that?
Because Covert means "unseen."
Quote: All you have to do is go to a safe and insta jump everyone in, there is no way they will break the safe before everyone is cloaked back up if you do it right...
Yes, exactly. Covert Operations - unseen movements and tactics taking advantage of cloaks.
Quote: Unless you want to jump straight onto an enemy force, in which case, how does it make role play sense that your gang mate can lock onto you light years away, but the dude 5 meters away can't even see you?
Ever heard of encryption? It allows you to share secrets in situations where your conversation can be eavsdropped.
I also think the Hacking skill should allow a skilled player to sometimes succeed at locking on to enemy Cyno fields.
Surprise! We're crashing your party.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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![Lance Fighter Lance Fighter](https://images.evetech.net/characters/206506965/portrait?size=64)
Lance Fighter
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Posted - 2008.05.22 20:41:00 -
[51]
omfg that is amazing.
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![White Ronin White Ronin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/496908200/portrait?size=64)
White Ronin
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Posted - 2008.05.22 21:27:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
I also think the Hacking skill should allow a skilled player to sometimes succeed at locking on to enemy Cyno fields.
Actually that is kinda brilliant. Um... damn.
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![Nhi'Khuna Nhi'Khuna](https://images.evetech.net/characters/406028491/portrait?size=64)
Nhi'Khuna
Strife Mercenaries Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.22 22:09:00 -
[53]
Yeah, actually that's a pretty fricken brilliant idea.
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![Derek Sigres Derek Sigres](https://images.evetech.net/characters/883220914/portrait?size=64)
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.05.22 22:11:00 -
[54]
Originally by: White Ronin
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
I also think the Hacking skill should allow a skilled player to sometimes succeed at locking on to enemy Cyno fields.
Actually that is kinda brilliant. Um... damn.
A change like this would mean the black ops has a potential role. In fact, if other asymetric techniques (like some form of sabatoge to POS's were allowed) then getting a small gang of recons deep beind the lines may actually be of some use.
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![Aleis Aleis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/147185485/portrait?size=64)
Aleis
Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2008.05.22 22:13:00 -
[55]
another issue that i have with the ship is that not only is the ship itself a High skill intensive to fly but you also need a cyno pilot with cyno theory lvl 5. and how many people other than alts really have that skill?
if they plan on this ship being flown by anything other than player + alt that alone needs to change. either make it something a little easier to train to lvl 5 or a skill that pilots might actualy want to train
Gang Assist Guide |
![Nhi'Khuna Nhi'Khuna](https://images.evetech.net/characters/406028491/portrait?size=64)
Nhi'Khuna
Strife Mercenaries Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.22 22:24:00 -
[56]
I do! Crazy, I know. :)
I'd love it if someone who has had success soloing witht he Sin would be so magnanimous as to post their build. I've been wrestling with this ship on EFT to no avail.
Nhi.
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![Aleis Aleis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/147185485/portrait?size=64)
Aleis
Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo
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Posted - 2008.05.22 22:33:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Aleis on 22/05/2008 22:34:37 guess i can't really say anything i trained it my self for the stealth cyno....but how am i supposed to use my own cyno? Maybe training it and buying a Panther wasn't the smartest thing to do......
Gang Assist Guide |
![Waxau Waxau](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1031466230/portrait?size=64)
Waxau
The Fated Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.05.25 21:30:00 -
[58]
Right - Well, ive been SiSi'ing it up for 3 or so days, and for one simple reason. EXTENSIVE black ops testing. In particular, the Widow.
Now, i fly this ship on Tranq, however, risk and overall opportunities are far more scarce on tranq than SiSi.
To start off, this is in low sec, with war targets (factional warfare). And for those that have found me in it, they will tell you its an annoying little thing. Flying around cloaked at 300ms is enough to move strategically whilst hidden, and striking at the opportune moment. My average 'tactic' is warp in at the said combat zone, cloak up immediately and fly in a certain direction. Once the cloak process is complete, change to your TRUE heading (as folks can tell where you were flying at the time, and attempt to uncloak you.
I tend to pick targets that are sniper fitted, simply because with that advantage, i can keep the majority of my jammers off, ready for any rude tacklers that come my way. Plus i have a slight tank, to save me from lucky shots. Just stick 5 cruise on the target, 28km scram (overloaded t2, as you get within range with one cycle, allowing you to switch back to 'normal' before it dies). Most snipers die within a minute or two, and IF the ranges are ideal, any other hostiles wont be able to warp to you/their friend, allowing you a nice relaxing time - Ofc, always be aligned, and ready to cloak aswell.
Whilst you're having fun with their sniper, keep an eye out for nanoships. Theyre pesky and ALWAYS seem to nab me when i least want them to. However, if you're lucky and have decent skills, you should have a jammer or two left, which tends to jam a hac 50% of the time, and a ceptor/frig should be near enough permajammed.
Not talking of other black ops here ofc, as i dont fly them, and are far different than the widow, but the trick in flying widows' is purely that of jammers. My setup is near enough 50/50 tank:Ecm. Well, i say that, i have two tanking mods, 1 scram, 1 sensor booster, and 4 multi's. The reason for multi's is purely because with racials, you're ALWAYS hindered by your targets gang makeup, OR (if you're using it properly and fighting solo) you tend to only have a single shot at jamming the said ship. With multi's, it gives alot less micromanagement, whilst still allowing effective jamming.
Now, at the moment, people will be curious as to the purpose of my post. And that curiousity shall be answered now. People are whining, aswell as myself, in regards to black ops. Not because they CANT kill things. Not because they lack dps. Not because they lack a tank. But because they lack a role. A scorpion can do what my widow does. Infact, ive done it on Tranq many times. Where the scorp lacks dps, you fit neuts. And unlike the widow, it doesnt put a 700 mil dent in your wallet, but a 15 mil dent. (Yes, fifteen).
These ships need several changes to make them WORTHY of the risk. SiSi is fine, everythings 100 isk. Who care, right? But when it actually is an investment of your time, then it becomes a different matter.
Much like whats been stated, the black ops need a range of things to make them worthy of flying. 1. Seperate fuel hangar OR vastly reduce jump bridge/jumping costs. 2. Remove the Scan Res penalty of the cloaks. 3. Increase the strength of the Sin and Panther, in dps and/or EW (Sin = Damps?) 4. Jump range.
With these stated boosts, the black ops will become WORTHY of flying, will ADD to pvp diversity (Having a black ops hotdrop anyone?) AND wont make them overpowered.
Ofc, if CCP really want to make every black ops pilot happy, cov ops cloak would be nice too :P
Wax
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![James Lyrus James Lyrus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1172000459/portrait?size=64)
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.05.26 01:47:00 -
[59]
I've played with the Widow a bit on SiSi. I quite like it, because it's a funky black Scorpion.
But I don't think I'd fly one on the main server - It's doesn't really seem to have a niche to inhabit, and even as a 'toy' ship, it is sufficiently crippled in certian areas to make it a 'novelty' rather than anything else.
Scan resolution, Jumprange, fuel use and fitting space being the major amongst these. Not forgetting of course, cynojammers (seriously, short jump range, and lots of cynojammers makes life hell in 0.0)
Otherwise... actually, I think they have some potential. They're still BS that are fat and slow, but they do have jumpdrives. Blackops escorting carriers would be funky. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
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