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Xin Wen	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:39:00 - [1] Ok, I just recently purchased a shiny new Golem for mission running only. I have flown Raven and CNR before. I have read many posts on forums with people saying the CNR can deal just as much damage as the Golem. I have yet to figure out the logic behind that since the CNR has 7 missle slots, vs the Golem having 4 but dealing 100% more damage. That equates to being like 8 missle slots based on my math classes in Elementary school, lol. Anyway, I am by no means an expert in setups, so maybe I am missing something. Maybe the missing low or mid slots have a lot to do with the amount of damage you can deal out?? I personally think the Golem is perfect for running missions and much better than the CNR. Just being able to grab cans from 40k away and also having much more room to store your stuff in the cargo, twice as much room I believe. Plus, the Golem is in theory like firing an extra cruise or seige missle. I have flown about everything but specialize in the Ravens just because of the ease of running missions with them. I just want to make sure I am not missing something and just wasted 700 million isk on this puppy, lol.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:43:00 - [2] Edited by: Ogul on 19/05/2008 18:43:52 Originally by: Xin Wen That equates to being like 8 missle slots based on my math classes in Elementary school, lol. Did you really pass them? Hint: Look at all the ship bonuses. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:44:00 - [3] Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 19/05/2008 18:50:58 A Golem has 4 launchers and a 100% damage bonus, so it essentially has 8 launchers. A Caldari Navy Raven has 7 launchers and a 25% RoF bonus with Caldari Battleship V, so it essentially has 8.75 launchers. Of course, the debate boils down to far more than this simple facet (tank, Target Painter / Explosion Velocity bonus, etc.), but that should answer your question. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Commoner Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:48:00 - [4] Originally by: Bronson Hughes A Golem has 4 launchers and a 100% RoF bonus, so it essentially has 8 launchers. A Caldari Navy Raven has 7 launchers and a 25% RoF bonus with Caldari Battleship V, so it essentially has 8.75 launchers. Of course, the debate boils down to far more than this simple facet (tank, Target Painter / Explosion Velocity bonus, etc.), but that should answer your question. You mean a damage bonus right? A 100% rof bonus would give it infinite dps. (or....if you like division by something which is VERY clost to 0). The worst pvp'er in EVE :
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:51:00 - [5] Originally by: Commoner You mean a damage bonus right? A 100% rof bonus would give it infinite dps. (or....if you like division by something which is VERY clost to 0). Bah, right. And I was just going to edit that too dammit. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Pax Empyrean	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:57:00 - [6] Quote: You mean a damage bonus right? A 100% rof bonus would give it infinite dps. (or....if you like division by something which is VERY clost to 0). That's a really bizarre way of calculating bonuses. Normally something that has a 100% bonus is twice as powerful/fast/sexy/whatever. Eve is a festival of arbitrary complexity.
Xin Wen	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Ogul Edited by: Ogul on 19/05/2008 18:43:52 Originally by: Xin Wen That equates to being like 8 missle slots based on my math classes in Elementary school, lol. Did you really pass them? Hint: Look at all the ship bonuses. Yes. And I got a good job, so I don't have as much time as you do in order to research all of this :) Thanks Ogul!
MotoMissles	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:13:00 - [8] Don't forget that firing fewer missiles at a time means that more potential damage is lost to defenders as well.
Xin Wen	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:16:00 - [9] Originally by: MotoMissles Don't forget that firing fewer missiles at a time means that more potential damage is lost to defenders as well. This is a topic that I have heard go either way. Some people say the defenders are chance based on the number of missles you shoot, so it shouldn't add the amount of your missles that get knocked off. However, I have also heard that the defenders do indeed pick more off. Who knows for sure on this?
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.19 19:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Pax Empyrean Quote: You mean a damage bonus right? A 100% rof bonus would give it infinite dps. (or....if you like division by something which is VERY clost to 0). That's a really bizarre way of calculating bonuses. Normally something that has a 100% bonus is twice as powerful/fast/sexy/whatever. Eve is a festival of arbitrary complexity. It's because ROF bonus is taking away from a value (something minus 100% of itself = 0) Originally by: MotoMissles Don't forget that firing fewer missiles at a time means that more potential damage is lost to defenders as well. This has been discussed before and NPC defenders work on a chance based system for each missile fired missile so no dps is lost due to fewer missiles.
Gul Rashen Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.19 20:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Xin Wen Originally by: MotoMissles Some people say the defenders are chance based on the number of missles you shoot, so it shouldn't add the amount of your missles that get knocked off.... Who knows for sure on this? Not some people, the DEVs say this. And i know for sure, cause i tested it in many Missions and against Defenderspamming NPCs like Rachen Mysuna with a CNR and a Golem. Same Percentage of Missiles got shot down by Defenders. Believe it or not.
Nu Wa	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:02:00 - [12] Edited by: Nu Wa on 19/05/2008 21:03:52 Originally by: Gul Rashen Not some people, the DEVs say this. And i know for sure, cause i tested it in many Missions and against Defenderspamming NPCs like Rachen Mysuna with a CNR and a Golem. Same Percentage of Missiles got shot down by Defenders. Believe it or not. ^ what he said... There is one more way to support that: Find a defender spammer NPC (drone mother) Shoot at it a full volley of cruise, 6 for raven, 7 for CNR. Like most people observed, a drone mother can shoot down 1-2 missile from each of your volley. Now, turn off all your launcher except 1. If the NPC really launches 1-2 defenders at the same rate, then your single missile per volley has no chance of ever reaching the target. However, what you end up seeing is that the launch rate of NPC dramatically decreases, allowing your single missile to go through sometimes. This proves that NPC does not have a fixed number of launcher slots and does not have a fixed Rate of Fire. The only possible explaination is that it fires defenders based a chance for every one of your missile. This agrees with dev's statement.
Aja Crimeathin	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:08:00 - [13] Edited by: Aja Crimeathin on 19/05/2008 21:09:01 So I've seen this thrown back and forth so I decided to put a little research into it. I used the missile guide provided by CCP to do my comparisons with the following data. ROF 2.4s Weapons: torpedo resists: 25% Battleships: 400 sig radius 125 speed Cruisers: 125 Sig Radius 200 speed CNR: 7 launchers w/ 25% rate of fire bonus Golem: 8 Launchers w/ 41.25% sig radius bonus. (T2 Target Painter + lvl 5 BS bonus) What I got is the following: Against Battleships the CNR puts out 1500DPS, the Golem 1437.2DPS. Against Cruisers the CNR puts out 490DPS, the golem 718.6DPS. Based on my experiences with level 4s and the percentages of BS vs. BC vs. Cruisers I'd have to say that without running the numbers on BCs the golem would be quicker. Although the CNR is the faster BS killer, the torp golem isn't too far behind the CNR in dammage output at 95.8% the damage output. However with cruisers the golem puts out 146.7% of the damage of a CNR. Any thoughts?? EDIT: of course this doesn't factor in defensive missiles.
queen1121 Empire Dreams	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:24:00 - [14] cruise + cnr = good and tanks better than golem below (no need for painter or ab) golem + torps + skills + t2 hydraulic bays = good Imo setups above perform equally, though torps are better for some and cruise for other missions but overall both work very well. But if you go into unknown waters (like cosmos in 0.0 etc), i'd take cnr over golem any day.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Commoner Originally by: Bronson Hughes A Golem has 4 launchers and a 100% RoF bonus, so it essentially has 8 launchers. A Caldari Navy Raven has 7 launchers and a 25% RoF bonus with Caldari Battleship V, so it essentially has 8.75 launchers. Of course, the debate boils down to far more than this simple facet (tank, Target Painter / Explosion Velocity bonus, etc.), but that should answer your question. You mean a damage bonus right? A 100% rof bonus would give it infinite dps. (or....if you like division by something which is VERY clost to 0). i want a 0 rof, 18x4 torp alpha strike oh *2 for the mauraders skillbonus
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Bronson Hughes A Caldari Navy Raven has 7 launchers and a 25% RoF bonus with Caldari Battleship V, so it essentially has 8.75 launchers. I wasn't going to post here, but there is this little gem of math that I keep seeing people get wrong. A 25% RoF bonus is not a 25% DPS increase, it is a 33.33% DPS increase. 100 / 0.75 = 133.33 The CNR does not have 8.75 effective launchers compared to the Golem, it has 9.33 launchers. 9.33 / 8 = 1.16625 CNR has, in theory, ~16.6% more DPS potential than the Golem. Golem has better tank, more versatility, and greater ammo efficiency. -- Don't harsh my mellow
Zerode	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:40:00 - [17] Don't forget that NPC defenters are chance based PER LAUNCHED MISSILE, hence the following: A ship with ROF bonus is resulting in more missiles being shot down by defenders than a damage bonus. Because of this the Golem has in reality a higher DPS output than a CNR in PVE.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.20 16:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Commoner Originally by: Bronson Hughes A Golem has 4 launchers and a 100% RoF bonus, so it essentially has 8 launchers. A Caldari Navy Raven has 7 launchers and a 25% RoF bonus with Caldari Battleship V, so it essentially has 8.75 launchers. Of course, the debate boils down to far more than this simple facet (tank, Target Painter / Explosion Velocity bonus, etc.), but that should answer your question. You mean a damage bonus right? A 100% rof bonus would give it infinite dps. (or....if you like division by something which is VERY clost to 0). i want a 0 rof, 18x4 torp alpha strike oh *2 for the mauraders skillbonus 100% ROF bonus would indeed be sweet. Lob ALL of your missiles currently loaded as a GIANT planet sized orange ball of doom. Nothing shy of a cap ship could survive that kind of alpha strike.
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Zerode Don't forget that NPC defenters are chance based PER LAUNCHED MISSILE, hence the following: A ship with ROF bonus is resulting in more missiles being shot down by defenders than a damage bonus. Because of this the Golem has in reality a higher DPS output than a CNR in PVE. Your logic is flawed. No matter the bonuses, the defenders knock down a fixed percentage of your ordinance, resulting in the same DPS loss whether you have a RoF bonus or a Damage multiplier bonus. Sure, the CNR launches more missiles and therefor loses more missiles total to defenders, but the missiles shot down from the golem each are worth more in damage, resulting in the same DPS loss. The only advantage you gain from the golem over the CNR when it comes to defenders is in isk cost, as you are conserving ammo when flying the golem. There is no direct DPS gain for the golem when considering defenders. -- Don't harsh my mellow
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.05.20 17:17:00 - [20] Something else to consider for the whole Defender issue that I rarely see come up: Torpedoes can often times survive a single Defender hit, Cruise Missiles almost never do. Since CNRs tend to be mostly Cruise Missile boats whilst Golems tend to use Torpedoes, a typical Golem does have a distinct advantage in terms of DPS lost to Defenders over a typical CNR. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.05.20 18:27:00 - [21] Supposedly it takes three defenders to kill a torpedo. The last time I heard that rumor was in Revelations II though, and I've never actually tested it since I skipped torp training. C/D tbh.
Siberys	Posted - 2008.05.20 19:24:00 - [22] Edited by: Siberys on 20/05/2008 19:29:29 Originally by: Dheorl Originally by: Pax Empyrean Quote: You mean a damage bonus right? A 100% rof bonus would give it infinite dps. (or....if you like division by something which is VERY clost to 0). That's a really bizarre way of calculating bonuses. Normally something that has a 100% bonus is twice as powerful/fast/sexy/whatever. Eve is a festival of arbitrary complexity. It's because ROF bonus is taking away from a value (something minus 100% of itself = 0) Originally by: MotoMissles Don't forget that firing fewer missiles at a time means that more potential damage is lost to defenders as well. This has been discussed before and NPC defenders work on a chance based system for each missile fired missile so no dps is lost due to fewer missiles. \ Where did you learn math? ROF bonus means +100%, not minus In effect, your missiles will fire twice as fast.
Daminma2 Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.20 19:32:00 - [23] Originally by: Siberys Where did you learn math? ROF bonus means +100%, not minus It lowers the refire rate by "Taking away" the time it takes for it to fire again. It reduces it by that percentage, which in turn increases the dps. DPS = VolleyDamage/Refire rate By making refire rate smaller you are increasing DPS.
Bo0yakasha	Posted - 2008.05.20 19:40:00 - [24] Edited by: Bo0yakasha on 20/05/2008 19:43:13 Originally by: Siberys Where did you learn math? ROF bonus means +100%, not minus In effect, your missiles will fire twice as fast. You misunderstood, I think the person meant calculating the actual RATE of fire, not DPS as a result
Dar Vega Squareyes Logistics The 11th Hour	Posted - 2008.05.22 18:44:00 - [25] so with all the math and debate what setups would you be talking about for both the cnr and golem?

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