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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.22 00:28:00 -
[31]
The real question is, what happens if one empire loses all its contestable space, and your FW agent sends you on a mission into their space?
I'm looking at you, Gallente-to-be-pwnd. |
Akhtar Leon
Dark Future Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.22 02:17:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: isoPhotek
Quote:
you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you
If this is true....epic fail.
Considering it's low-sec and everybody can kill anyone, those warpgates can be limited to facton militia's only, so in that manner you can't be killed while doing FW mission unless it's an enemy
Also would be a good idea that scanning for those FW sites to return a find only for militia's members (this way preventing everyday pirates to find the locations and camp them)
linking those two will prevent pirates from interfearing with actual FW taking place at the site but still they can camp the stargates between systems and having something to shoot at |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.22 02:19:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Akhtar Leon
Originally by: isoPhotek
Quote:
you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you
If this is true....epic fail.
Considering it's low-sec and everybody can kill anyone, those warpgates can be limited to facton militia's only, so in that manner you can't be killed while doing FW mission unless it's an enemy
Also would be a good idea that scanning for those FW sites to return a find only for militia's members (this way preventing everyday pirates to find the locations and camp them)
linking those two will prevent pirates from interfearing with actual FW taking place at the site but still they can camp the stargates between systems and having something to shoot at
I think pirates should get the right to camp them :)
more fun that way :P
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Akhtar Leon
Dark Future Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.22 02:35:00 -
[34]
Well at the moment missions are like this:
- risk vs reward ... lol
(your mission beacon is shinny in overview for anyone to see don't forget you are in low-sec so no CONCORD to protect you from non-wartargets anyone can enter inside that plex if it has the right ship)
(15 jumps through low-sec, pirate camps, enemy space, very tight on time as well - for let's say same rewards as normal NPC agents)
- traveling to high-sec enemy space "bye-bye"
- LP Store .. same prices, same stuff as other fleet LP Stores
- result: alot of failures in completing the missions ppl will loose interest verry fast in it
SiSi is one thing where you don't give a dam about loosing a ship .. on TQ if you pop 7 ships just to get to the mission location ... you will never do another mission. As stated FW is a steping stone for High-Sec mision runners to actual PvP but damn sounds like sending them right into wolf's mouth (pirates / gankers) as lambs |
Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.05.22 02:49:00 -
[35]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect
Even if the payouts are adjusted to lets say an (reasonable) arbitrary 50-100mil reward for a Lvl 3 (which is considerably more than a standard Lvl 3), I doubt many would deem it worthwhile to take on the offer.
- 13-20 jumps across enemy territory with a real possibility of encountering perma-gatecamp at key systems makes one thinks twice for solo excursions. Then there's that beacon that lights up the hornets nest, oh what fun it will be! Finally, you'll be spending another 13-20 jumps through the same route or 13-40 jumps on an alternative safer route. Is there anyone mad enough to do this more than 1 time? 10 times? 20 times?
- Keeping the payout in mind, nano ships/HACs are about the only thing that could possibly do this feasibly. Losing one however, will set the player in the red even if the mission was completed at a later date. BS/BC/T1 cruiser/AF have some faults here and there for this particular task
- If ever there was an aim by CCP to also include solo style play for missions in FW, I think it's been thrown out of the window. The above only encourages roaming fleet/small gangs play style. So we split the 50-100mil payout to each person in the gang then right? Oh joy!
Avg completion time shouldn't be a major criteria for adjusting payout, nor should payout be the only criteria when adjusting mission feasibility.
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Gamesguy
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.22 04:46:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect
Even if the payouts are adjusted to lets say an (reasonable) arbitrary 50-100mil reward for a Lvl 3 (which is considerably more than a standard Lvl 3), I doubt many would deem it worthwhile to take on the offer.
- 13-20 jumps across enemy territory with a real possibility of encountering perma-gatecamp at key systems makes one thinks twice for solo excursions. Then there's that beacon that lights up the hornets nest, oh what fun it will be! Finally, you'll be spending another 13-20 jumps through the same route or 13-40 jumps on an alternative safer route. Is there anyone mad enough to do this more than 1 time? 10 times? 20 times?
- Keeping the payout in mind, nano ships/HACs are about the only thing that could possibly do this feasibly. Losing one however, will set the player in the red even if the mission was completed at a later date. BS/BC/T1 cruiser/AF have some faults here and there for this particular task
- If ever there was an aim by CCP to also include solo style play for missions in FW, I think it's been thrown out of the window. The above only encourages roaming fleet/small gangs play style. So we split the 50-100mil payout to each person in the gang then right? Oh joy!
Avg completion time shouldn't be a major criteria for adjusting payout, nor should payout be the only criteria when adjusting mission feasibility.
The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions.
And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare.
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Akhtar Leon
Dark Future Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.22 06:20:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Gamesguy
The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions.
And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare.
thing is .. you get plex restriction like cruiser max ... and you have to travel to low sec with hungry pirates in ebil ships and enemies with a gang of not so seasoned wanna be PvPers ... what do you think outcome will be?
or now we remove all pirates from low sec ... and let FW guy to play in sandbox there? |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.22 06:28:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Akhtar Leon
Originally by: Gamesguy
The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions.
And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare.
thing is .. you get plex restriction like cruiser max ... and you have to travel to low sec with hungry pirates in ebil ships and enemies with a gang of not so seasoned wanna be PvPers ... what do you think outcome will be?
or now we remove all pirates from low sec ... and let FW guy to play in sandbox there?
then it wouldn't be a sand box.
ok it would be a boxed off part of the sand box.
maybe make your ship invisible when using an acceleration gate? thus pirate will gear up and camp inside the deadspaces with smaller ships?
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Akhtar Leon
Dark Future Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.22 06:47:00 -
[39]
solution exist ... but will be damn tough just to start it .. and most of players will drop it |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.22 07:06:00 -
[40]
I dont know I think there is a change the frigates will get through the gate before being locked?
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Akhtar Leon
Dark Future Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.22 07:13:00 -
[41]
if there are inties there .. doubt it :)
not to mention gate camps
don't get me wrong .. i love FW ... but ... except for RP rich guys ... rest will pass the offer ...
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.22 07:18:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Akhtar Leon
if there are inties there .. doubt it :)
not to mention gate camps
don't get me wrong .. i love FW ... but ... except for RP rich guys ... rest will pass the offer ...
I don't think that can stop you form warping to 0 and jumping :)
but yeah you got a point minus one thing. our corp is well off and we plan and supporting our factions member :)
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.22 11:45:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Gamesguy
The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions.
And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare.
I see the gang warfare but not the small part. 12-15 jumps in hostile territory is medium/large gang.
As thing stands for the player point of view Fw seem a huge isk and time sink, even more than regular PvP where you are operating for player territorial control.
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PeHD0M
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Posted - 2008.05.22 12:01:00 -
[44]
I suggest ccp to throw away the whole idea of jump gates. Simply equip all ships with jumpdrives, wich can be used without cynofield, need some fuel to operate and warp ship to random location 100-200au from sun in destistinated solar system.
This solution solves 3 problems:
1. blob-gatecamps (lagging.. lagging.. you are in clone bay.. not much fun i think)
2. unload server (because there is no need to change sessions so often)
3. no jumpgate borringness and time sink (rmb gate->warp to 0 ->waiting..->jumping->waiting..->rmb gate... repeat a lot of times: BORRING!!!)
You can ballance those jumpdrive in such way so small ships can jump a lot bigger distances than big ships, so this will encourage to use small mobile ships rather than massive capitals.
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Jack Gilligan
Dragon's Rage
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.05.22 12:27:00 -
[45]
Wow... 15 jumps to do a L3 mission while tagged on the overview in LOWSEC?
This expansion gets worse and worse the more we learn about it. There is no way in hell this is going to entice Empire dwellers into pvp, and since people who are in alliances CANNOT even run these missions, the experienced pvp'ers who might be able to pull off such things are shut out.
About the only way this expansion is going to get people participating is if the rewards are ridiculous. Which they should be given the extreme level of risk.
Again, this is destined to fail because empire dwellers will STILL be able to make more money sticking to highsec (since they will have much fewer losses to replace), plus you still have the problem of sending people into PVP whilst doing PVE, which are two completely different fittings.
I think that the big problem here is that CCP doesn't understand how EVE really works.
They believe that lowsec, which is the most wild and uncontrolled area in the game (since players can't claim sov and control it, and the Empires don't effectively control it) is some "middle ground" between Empire and 0.0. It isn't, except geographically. Lowsec is where the lawless live, pirates, etc, who live off the inexperienced and the inevitability that stuff needs to be moved through lowsec at some point from 0.0 to Empire.
If they really want "pvp lite" for Empire dwellers, I'm afraid it will only work if they keep it all in highsec.
If they want to keep it in lowsec, it's only going to be relevant if they allow alliances in. Soon as the ganks start happening, the militias empty and the system falls into complete disuse.
My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my corporation or alliance. |
Jack Gilligan
Dragon's Rage
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.05.22 12:32:00 -
[46]
Originally by: PeHD0M
I suggest ccp to throw away the whole idea of jump gates. Simply equip all ships with jumpdrives, wich can be used without cynofield, need some fuel to operate and warp ship to random location 100-200au from sun in destistinated solar system.
This solution solves 3 problems:
1. blob-gatecamps (lagging.. lagging.. you are in clone bay.. not much fun i think)
2. unload server (because there is no need to change sessions so often)
3. no jumpgate borringness and time sink (rmb gate->warp to 0 ->waiting..->jumping->waiting..->rmb gate... repeat a lot of times: BORRING!!!)
You can ballance those jumpdrive in such way so small ships can jump a lot bigger distances than big ships, so this will encourage to use small mobile ships rather than massive capitals.
Interesting idea.
Problem is though that this wouldn't stop blobbing, it'd only stop gatecamps. Indeed, blobs would get worse since without a fixed defense point, the blob could be jumped into a system with impunity.
My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my corporation or alliance. |
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.05.22 15:44:00 -
[47]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 21/05/2008 03:30:35
Originally by: isoPhotek
Quote:
you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you
If this is true....epic fail.
Well I have to disagree, I think it's a great idea, and really fun.
It's not a normal mission can you can still do normal missions with non-FW agents.
But it is epic fail if all you get is 60k for the risk.
so would you do then? no didn't think so... so will you smile while ganking the mission runners? yer i thought so.
=EPIC FAIL!
no mission runner will EVER do this, the risk is insane, and butting the reward up will just result in pvp'er being even richer and mission runners getting even more poor, so it is a very bad idea all in all
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Ezekiel Sulastin
Central Research Nexus
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:16:00 -
[48]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
so would you do then? no didn't think so... so will you smile while ganking the mission runners? yer i thought so.
=EPIC FAIL!
no mission runner will EVER do this, the risk is insane, and butting the reward up will just result in pvp'er being even richer and mission runners getting even more poor, so it is a very bad idea all in all
The whole point of this damned thing is to encourage PVP, so that's fine. What, you're supposed to be in poverty because you shoot people?
The issue is that the new mission implementation is beyond ******** and horridly imbalanced. Why even bother with FW missions given the downsides? THAT'S the issue at hand.
----
WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.22 16:16:00 -
[49]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 22/05/2008 16:17:39
I WOULD do them I'm the OP.
you read the OP right?
did you figure out I made that post?
I think there is nothing wrong with a mission you complete while PvPing. good stuff. But it needs a great payout.
If for instance the pay out of one of these missions was enough LP for a new faction cruiser. then hells yes I would do it, and I would do it with friends, and we'd all take 4 of them and run around .
it shouldn't be 15 jumps though, it should be just into the other system somehwere. the other guys controled space.
so you jump 6-7 jumps, survive, do some PvP, come back, faction cruiser. repeat.
EDIT: This new missions should pay you or reward you while you PvP tjhat should be the point.
actually I'm going to say it roight here, remove the bonus reward, it's not going to happen nor should it part of the design for these missions.
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Zhang Ramses
Chaos From Order
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:05:00 -
[50]
Can someone clarify something:
Does a FW agent always give out the same mission? I'm going to guess that they don't. Therefore, to imply that my gang of 5-7 people can travel 20-30 jumps in lowsec and each gain the rewards for completing the mission is false. If we all start at the same agent, we'll get a variety of missions, all taking us into lowsec. And, because it seems this missions are not completed quicker by having more DPS, this will take a very very long time (think 15 mins of capture time x number of pilots + all the travel time) for even a smaller gang to complete one mission each. And if the various mission complexes each have different ship size restrictions, now what?
I'm afraid these are going to be about as popular as level 5 missions. |
Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:19:00 -
[51]
The distances are a bit too high to be reasonable. People might avoid doing the missions and just contest systems insted. |
Kathryn Dougans
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2008.05.22 17:25:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Wow... 15 jumps to do a L3 mission while tagged on the overview in LOWSEC?
the beacon only appears on everyone's overview when you initiate warp to the mission site.
so people would only have a couple minutes or so to try and ambush you.
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Soporo
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Posted - 2008.05.22 18:51:00 -
[53]
A couple of minutes?
Just exactly how long does it take to right click/wt0 to something on the Overview, and of course the Prat ambushers won't be limited to Frigs and Cruisers...
I think this will be a massive gank-fest.
The only good I can see coming out of this is maybe a lot of the Empire annoyances will go back to LowSec for a while.
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Kathryn Dougans
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2008.05.22 20:29:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Soporo
A couple of minutes?
Just exactly how long does it take to right click/wt0 to something on the Overview, and of course the Prat ambushers won't be limited to Frigs and Cruisers...
Ambush is when they're lying in wait for you, having arrived previously.
Since the beacon only pops up when you initiate warp to it, then, in order for them to be lying in wait at the entry gate, they have to have: Spotted the beacon, decided to engage, initiated warp and managed to arrive at the beacon before you do. Interceptors might be able to manage it, but a battleship isn't likely to.
So if you arrive first and get through a shipsize-restricted gate, then they either have to ignore you, or use appropriate sized ships to follow. That's not an ambush though.
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Tyrantus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.22 21:15:00 -
[55]
Well it seems that the 15 jump mechanic is intended.
From sisi faction chat:
[20:47:27] Tyrantus > 12 jumps minimum for mission?
[20:48:43] CCP Kalmukaru > I say again... Enemy Territory isn't always in the next system,
[20:49:42] CCP Kalmukaru > And that's where the factional warfare missions are sending you - enemy territory
[20:50:37] CCP Kalmukaru > they intend on sending you deep into enemy territory.
Better get a good group and nano up chaps. 
Future Member Of The Imperial 24th |
Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.05.22 21:47:00 -
[56]
Well, the travel distance make sense, even if 10 jumps might do the job just as well, but how are players that are forced in, say, cruiser-sized hulls by the gates of a complex, going to do when tumbling into an equal number of pirate BS? They won't pass without taking serious losses, unless they nano.
That's encouraging nanofaggotry, and that's about the most effective thing you can do if you want to discourage players form doing pvp.
You should just let FW players come in whatever ships they want to use.
------------------------------------------
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.05.22 22:07:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Tyrantus
Well it seems that the 15 jump mechanic is intended.
From sisi faction chat:
[20:47:27] Tyrantus > 12 jumps minimum for mission?
[20:48:43] CCP Kalmukaru > I say again... Enemy Territory isn't always in the next system,
[20:49:42] CCP Kalmukaru > And that's where the factional warfare missions are sending you - enemy territory
[20:50:37] CCP Kalmukaru > they intend on sending you deep into enemy territory.
Better get a good group and nano up chaps.
True, enemi territory isn't next door, but generally a good commander (and agents are doing some of the commanders functions) isn't 500 Km from the front lines.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.05.22 22:24:00 -
[58]
well once again the point of this thread isn't to change the system IF it's working as intended, However... the rewards... the bonus for the missions is pointless.
So if this is how they want it lets hear some ideas on how to make them wroth it.
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Mianna Foreseer
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:12:00 -
[59]
What I have read now I can say that FW mission are boring, stupid and only group of people cheer to the whole idea are pirates and gate campers. Since they get a change to gank noobs that try to run those missions. Whole idea to start to adjust FW mission by dropping rewards to the floor in to the cellar dont really help at all. People might actually try to do those if rewards are big. Then you would get your data to adjust the more accurate FW mission reward system.
If you think any 1-4 month pilot would run those missions think again. Chance a losing a ship for nothing is high as hell in FW missions. Aaand even that some people say its FUN to pop your ship for nothing....its not fun to find out you are mining with your ibis again like in day 1.
What come to older pilots...they look to rewards...time and risk and dont even try to do even a single FW mission.
Basic idea again that pilot in a WAR need to get its ship and fit it all from its own wallet is kinda funny too. It make you feel to be a merc than a honorable soldier that fight in a army for your country. More humorous to the whole idea is that after grinding a month of those FW mission you may actually get a faction ship (ship type that you should have fly from first FW mission since you are now part of a army eh?) and you dont DARE to fly it since you dont wanna anyone pop it :)
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Tyrantus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.23 00:20:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Tyrantus on 23/05/2008 00:24:34
Originally by: MotherMoon
Quote:
Basic idea again that pilot in a WAR need to get its ship and fit it all from its own wallet is kinda funny too.
This is what my idea is trying to adress the idea of these mission basicly give you the LP for a ship would be much better.
maybe they could be ships with no insurance payouts at all?
The idea of "lets go grind 10 missions so we have 10 ships to fight with" would be much better imo.
Tbh thats the way I envisioned FW rewards would be. Easy access to faction ships and mods for the justfied price of having to earn them all in low sec action. It would be really cool to have the agent offer a nice faction mod or t1 ship as a bonus for the tougher missions or even a faction ship as bonus for a multipart storyline. Now that would be some nice incentive indeed. Besides if I want or need isk I'll just pop back into empire space and run some normal missions.
Future Member Of The 24th Imperial |
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