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MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.21 03:17:00 - [1] Edited by: MotherMoon on 21/05/2008 03:29:40 Edited by: MotherMoon on 21/05/2008 03:17:41 From what I understand a new level 3 mission in FW will take 15 jumps to get to, and then once your in at the target you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you. For 15 jumps, and for basically giving up the protection a deadspace gives you you should get much greater rewards than 60,000 isk. You should get MORE than a normal level 3 mission... or maybe the job shouldn't pay well... hell maybe isk should be completely taken out of the reward for FW missions, make it pure LP. Not only that but then remove all isk form the LP store for the militia If you think about CCP, this system you have right now is basically, go out, do 300 missions. thus inject 9 million isk into the game and gain 100,000 lp. Now go to the LP store and spend 100,000 LP and 9 million isk... wait that's pointless if the isk is needed in LP store as an isk sink for the isk gained along with LP... why even have isk? You could still make isk with the LP, you could trade it in to buy ships and such and then sell those rewards. One nice side effect of pure VERY high LP only missions would be giving players involved a steady supply of ships. Hell don't stop there make these ships that the LP store gives out insurable for not isk but LP. Meaning you take out your LP bought faction frigate into combat, lose it, and gain LP back instead of isk. I don't know maybe I'm just really tired but I think it might be an idea with some potential.
isoPhotek Minmatar Bushido Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.21 03:21:00 - [2] Quote: you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you If this is true....epic fail.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.21 03:24:00 - [3] Edited by: MotherMoon on 21/05/2008 03:30:35 Originally by: isoPhotek Quote: you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you If this is true....epic fail. Well I have to disagree, I think it's a great idea, and really fun. It's not a normal mission can you can still do normal missions with non-FW agents. But it is epic fail if all you get is 60k for the risk.
isoPhotek Minmatar Bushido Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.21 03:33:00 - [4] Quote: But it is epic fail if all you get is 60k for the risk. I meant it that way too. sorry for being cryptic.
DiaBlo UK Precision Engineering Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.21 09:25:00 - [5] Originally by: MotherMoon Hell don't stop there make these ships that the LP store gives out insurable for not isk but LP. Meaning you take out your LP bought faction frigate into combat, lose it, and gain LP back instead of isk. isn't that just placing isk with LP. meaning a change in words, or just introducing a non-convertable currency?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.21 11:07:00 - [6] Originally by: DiaBlo UK Originally by: MotherMoon Hell don't stop there make these ships that the LP store gives out insurable for not isk but LP. Meaning you take out your LP bought faction frigate into combat, lose it, and gain LP back instead of isk. isn't that just placing isk with LP. meaning a change in words, or just introducing a non-convertable currency? Basicly but think about it. it ceases to become an isk sink it makes being part of a militia special it removes a chunk of isk by removing insurance pay outs. and it's not doing anything different than what LP does now, like you said, it just makes the store all LP instead of LP and isk
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2008.05.21 11:21:00 - [7] Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 21/05/2008 11:22:27 Why would any faction would give you LP if you lose a Faction Ship? Insurance is fine, LP insurance is bad imo. I agree on LP payments though. It makes sense, factions are at war, they can't give money to everyone. It will also make more people to use LP store.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.21 11:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Siona Windweaver Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 21/05/2008 11:22:27 Why would any faction would give you LP if you lose a Faction Ship? Insurance is fine, LP insurance is bad imo. I agree on LP payments though. It makes sense, factions are at war, they can't give money to everyone. It will also make more people to use LP store. well ideas are made to be changed, isk pay out on insurance is fine then :P but I'm glad you see the potential of pure LP rewards.
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.05.21 11:53:00 - [9] Originally by: DiaBlo UK Originally by: MotherMoon Hell don't stop there make these ships that the LP store gives out insurable for not isk but LP. Meaning you take out your LP bought faction frigate into combat, lose it, and gain LP back instead of isk. isn't that just placing isk with LP. meaning a change in words, or just introducing a non-convertable currency? The idea is not bad. LP you can spend only in the militia store (so only if you keep working for them and keep a good standing) and they don't inject isk in the economy, so keeping inflationary pressure under control. In a RP sense it is a logical mechanic to keep the capsuleer under control. It will create some deficiency in isk for the militia players but if the drops and the LP store items are good enough they could keep the wallet active selling them. As the isk they will get in market will come from other players it would help keeping the inflationary pressures under control.

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2008.05.21 12:00:00 - [10] Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect

Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:24:00 - [11] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect Greyscale, have you (CCP) considered the time sink of sending people 12 jumps back and fort for a single mission while designing them? While I see why it will be part of the FW concept, it mean a minimum of 15 minutes of navigation to get there and another 15 to return back. The possibility of a fight with some gatecamp is not so enticing to make that interesting. Maybe agents near the combat area or the possibility of getting missions from range in any militia station would help there. Similarly the long transit distances must be weighted in the rewards.
Thebro Nobrunder Schrodinger's Renegades	Posted - 2008.05.21 16:40:00 - [12] Edited by: Thebro Nobrunder on 21/05/2008 16:40:16 Originally by: Venkul Mul Similarly the long transit distances must be weighted in the rewards. The rewards are based on the average /TIME/ it takes to complete them. ie: the /TIME/ it takes you to travel there and back is counted.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:24:00 - [13] don't you think you should take the fact that it dorps a beacon in space as part of the payout? currently it seems your using a simple time system... I suggestion a system that used time, and number of enemy ships that activate the acceleration gate into the mix.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.05.21 19:13:00 - [14] Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/05/2008 19:13:45 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect Unless I miss my guess, lv5 missions were tried, considered as not worthy of the risk involved, and deserted before that sytem had time to increase the rewards to a worthy level. Don't you fear that to happen again with factional warfare? Maybe you should manually set the rewards to a level you consider worthy, then let it regulate itself from there? ------------------------------------------
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.21 21:29:00 - [15] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect Payout and lp are fine so far but I had to go 18 jumps one way for a mission and the bonus was only 40 minutes. Is this intentional both for the 18 jumps and uncollectably short bonus time? inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.05.21 21:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder Edited by: Thebro Nobrunder on 21/05/2008 16:40:16 Originally by: Venkul Mul Similarly the long transit distances must be weighted in the rewards. The rewards are based on the average /TIME/ it takes to complete them. ie: the /TIME/ it takes you to travel there and back is counted. Not the same thing. Missions have a cap in rewards and FW mission probably will reach it regardless of the traveling time as the failure rate will be high. So if must be factored in the cap value.
Gus Morgan Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:01:00 - [17] Edited by: Gus Morgan on 21/05/2008 22:03:59 they should also remove any penalty if you fail to complete the mission since the failure rate will be much higher than normal missions. have you also concidered raising the rewards for completing a mission for a faction with lower membercount? This is to stimulate equality between the diffrent factions.
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:09:00 - [18] Edited by: Marlenus on 21/05/2008 22:13:14 The first mission I got offered was a 16-jump affair, for a level one mission offering 25LP. I understand that the rewards will go up once the system is populated with completion-time data. But I'm having a hard time imagining them ever going up so high as to make a 32-jump round trip FUN. There seems to be a fun-factor problem with the FW mission designs. Travel is boring ... yes it may get punctuated by combat excitements, but the rest of the time, it's still boring. Just my two ISK. Edit: I declined the mission. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:43:00 - [19] I don't think any systems within contested space are 16 jumps away form each other... try taking missions IN contested zones? I can't wait to test this mosr in depth but my computer is going to to the shop soon it seems :(
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:50:00 - [20] Originally by: MotherMoon I don't think any systems within contested space are 16 jumps away form each other... try taking missions IN contested zones? If that's relevant, shouldn't there be some indication in the interface? Because right now, there's no mention of "contested zones" or any hint of how a young militia pilot might hope to find one -- no even, when he's talking to a mission agent, that he might want or need to.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Marlenus Originally by: MotherMoon I don't think any systems within contested space are 16 jumps away form each other... try taking missions IN contested zones? If that's relevant, shouldn't there be some indication in the interface? Because right now, there's no mention of "contested zones" or any hint of how a young militia pilot might hope to find one -- no even, when he's talking to a mission agent, that he might want or need to. Yeah. Hope all this gets sorted by release or the masses of newish empire players are going to take a mission and go wtf!? then promtly make 12 whine threads per hour in the GD.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Marlenus Originally by: MotherMoon I don't think any systems within contested space are 16 jumps away form each other... try taking missions IN contested zones? If that's relevant, shouldn't there be some indication in the interface? Because right now, there's no mention of "contested zones" or any hint of how a young militia pilot might hope to find one -- no even, when he's talking to a mission agent, that he might want or need to. f10 star map tab occupancy set to militia of choice or all BAM you can see where every system the mission could possibly be in.
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:08:00 - [23] Mothermoon, I think you're missing my point. First, I'm not sure there's any connection between the mission destinations and systems where there are fights going on. There might be, but there's nothing in-game to suggest there is, and (frankly) I doubt it, until new evidence emerges. Much more to the point, there's no hint in the militia mission interface that the missions have anything to do with the places where active FW operations are going on, or that people wanting to run FW missions ought to go to an agent nearer the action. So, you pointing out how that can be done doesn't really help, does it? When (a) we don't know if it's worth doing and (b) nobody will know they ought to do it.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:09:00 - [24] The mission I accepted was 2 jumps from contested space and it still sent me 18 jumps.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:15:00 - [25] Originally by: Marlenus Mothermoon, I think you're missing my point. First, I'm not sure there's any connection between the mission destinations and systems where there are fights going on. There might be, but there's nothing in-game to suggest there is, and (frankly) I doubt it, until new evidence emerges. Much more to the point, there's no hint in the militia mission interface that the missions have anything to do with the places where active FW operations are going on, or that people wanting to run FW missions ought to go to an agent nearer the action. So, you pointing out how that can be done doesn't really help, does it? When (a) we don't know if it's worth doing and (b) nobody will know they ought to do it. what are you talking about? Have listened to the live dev blog? the Idea is that they are easier mission but they are within contested space. that's why when you go to your mission space it drops a beacon just like scanning down a site, so that the other milita can run in and try to kill you.
Hoshi Black Water.	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Zeba Payout and lp are fine so far but I had to go 18 jumps one way for a mission and the bonus was only 40 minutes. Is this intentional both for the 18 jumps and uncollectably short bonus time? Bonus time is also based on avg completion time.
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:30:00 - [27] You heard something different in the live blog than I did, I guess. I heard it, and I remember that the enemy could come bust up your missions because of the beacon system, but I didn't hear anything that would explain needing to go sixteen jumps.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Zeba Payout and lp are fine so far but I had to go 18 jumps one way for a mission and the bonus was only 40 minutes. Is this intentional both for the 18 jumps and uncollectably short bonus time? Bonus time is also based on avg completion time. Yes. I understand mission mechanics but you have to start with a base value that is at least mildly desirable and completable. As it stands if this goes live then all those newb empire players jumping on FW are going to take a mission that will get them killed nearly every single time on tranq with that many jumps in a row in low sec. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.22 00:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Zeba Yes. I understand mission mechanics but you have to start with a base value that is at least mildly desirable and completable. That's just it. Thirty-two jumps is a lot of pain, I'm having a hard time imagining the rewards that would make that a desirable mission. It would have to be enough LP to buy a navy missile launcher or something, and I don't see that ever happening. I've done trips that long on escalating explorations, for a chance at faction loot, and it's worth it when you get the loot, but I've just blown off a lot of escalations also, as just not having enough fun-factor to balance the death-march traveling.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 00:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Marlenus You heard something different in the live blog than I did, I guess. I heard it, and I remember that the enemy could come bust up your missions because of the beacon system, but I didn't hear anything that would explain needing to go sixteen jumps. that's what I mean I'm saying what they said the system would be. it shouldn't be 16 jumps unless you take a mission far away form contested space. thus something is wrong. I'm agreeing with you it's messed up and needs to be shorter, but at the same time I believe they said all missions would take place behind enemy lines.
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.22 00:28:00 - [31] The real question is, what happens if one empire loses all its contestable space, and your FW agent sends you on a mission into their space? I'm looking at you, Gallente-to-be-pwnd.
Akhtar Leon Dark Future Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.22 02:17:00 - [32] Originally by: isoPhotek Quote: you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you If this is true....epic fail. Considering it's low-sec and everybody can kill anyone, those warpgates can be limited to facton militia's only, so in that manner you can't be killed while doing FW mission unless it's an enemy Also would be a good idea that scanning for those FW sites to return a find only for militia's members (this way preventing everyday pirates to find the locations and camp them) linking those two will prevent pirates from interfearing with actual FW taking place at the site but still they can camp the stargates between systems and having something to shoot at
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 02:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Akhtar Leon Originally by: isoPhotek Quote: you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you If this is true....epic fail. Considering it's low-sec and everybody can kill anyone, those warpgates can be limited to facton militia's only, so in that manner you can't be killed while doing FW mission unless it's an enemy Also would be a good idea that scanning for those FW sites to return a find only for militia's members (this way preventing everyday pirates to find the locations and camp them) linking those two will prevent pirates from interfearing with actual FW taking place at the site but still they can camp the stargates between systems and having something to shoot at I think pirates should get the right to camp them :) more fun that way :P
Akhtar Leon Dark Future Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.22 02:35:00 - [34] Well at the moment missions are like this: - risk vs reward ... lol (your mission beacon is shinny in overview for anyone to see don't forget you are in low-sec so no CONCORD to protect you from non-wartargets anyone can enter inside that plex if it has the right ship) (15 jumps through low-sec, pirate camps, enemy space, very tight on time as well - for let's say same rewards as normal NPC agents) - traveling to high-sec enemy space "bye-bye" - LP Store .. same prices, same stuff as other fleet LP Stores - result: alot of failures in completing the missions ppl will loose interest verry fast in it SiSi is one thing where you don't give a dam about loosing a ship .. on TQ if you pop 7 ships just to get to the mission location ... you will never do another mission. As stated FW is a steping stone for High-Sec mision runners to actual PvP but damn sounds like sending them right into wolf's mouth (pirates / gankers) as lambs
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.22 02:49:00 - [35] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect Even if the payouts are adjusted to lets say an (reasonable) arbitrary 50-100mil reward for a Lvl 3 (which is considerably more than a standard Lvl 3), I doubt many would deem it worthwhile to take on the offer. 13-20 jumps across enemy territory with a real possibility of encountering perma-gatecamp at key systems makes one thinks twice for solo excursions. Then there's that beacon that lights up the hornets nest, oh what fun it will be! Finally, you'll be spending another 13-20 jumps through the same route or 13-40 jumps on an alternative safer route. Is there anyone mad enough to do this more than 1 time? 10 times? 20 times? Keeping the payout in mind, nano ships/HACs are about the only thing that could possibly do this feasibly. Losing one however, will set the player in the red even if the mission was completed at a later date. BS/BC/T1 cruiser/AF have some faults here and there for this particular task If ever there was an aim by CCP to also include solo style play for missions in FW, I think it's been thrown out of the window. The above only encourages roaming fleet/small gangs play style. So we split the 50-100mil payout to each person in the gang then right? Oh joy! Avg completion time shouldn't be a major criteria for adjusting payout, nor should payout be the only criteria when adjusting mission feasibility.
Gamesguy Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Sturmwolke Originally by: CCP Greyscale Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect Even if the payouts are adjusted to lets say an (reasonable) arbitrary 50-100mil reward for a Lvl 3 (which is considerably more than a standard Lvl 3), I doubt many would deem it worthwhile to take on the offer. 13-20 jumps across enemy territory with a real possibility of encountering perma-gatecamp at key systems makes one thinks twice for solo excursions. Then there's that beacon that lights up the hornets nest, oh what fun it will be! Finally, you'll be spending another 13-20 jumps through the same route or 13-40 jumps on an alternative safer route. Is there anyone mad enough to do this more than 1 time? 10 times? 20 times? Keeping the payout in mind, nano ships/HACs are about the only thing that could possibly do this feasibly. Losing one however, will set the player in the red even if the mission was completed at a later date. BS/BC/T1 cruiser/AF have some faults here and there for this particular task If ever there was an aim by CCP to also include solo style play for missions in FW, I think it's been thrown out of the window. The above only encourages roaming fleet/small gangs play style. So we split the 50-100mil payout to each person in the gang then right? Oh joy! Avg completion time shouldn't be a major criteria for adjusting payout, nor should payout be the only criteria when adjusting mission feasibility. The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions. And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare.
Akhtar Leon Dark Future Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:20:00 - [37] Originally by: Gamesguy The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions. And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare. thing is .. you get plex restriction like cruiser max ... and you have to travel to low sec with hungry pirates in ebil ships and enemies with a gang of not so seasoned wanna be PvPers ... what do you think outcome will be? or now we remove all pirates from low sec ... and let FW guy to play in sandbox there?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:28:00 - [38] Originally by: Akhtar Leon Originally by: Gamesguy The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions. And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare. thing is .. you get plex restriction like cruiser max ... and you have to travel to low sec with hungry pirates in ebil ships and enemies with a gang of not so seasoned wanna be PvPers ... what do you think outcome will be? or now we remove all pirates from low sec ... and let FW guy to play in sandbox there? then it wouldn't be a sand box. ok it would be a boxed off part of the sand box. maybe make your ship invisible when using an acceleration gate? thus pirate will gear up and camp inside the deadspaces with smaller ships?
Akhtar Leon Dark Future Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.22 06:47:00 - [39] solution exist ... but will be damn tough just to start it .. and most of players will drop it
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:06:00 - [40] I dont know I think there is a change the frigates will get through the gate before being locked?
Akhtar Leon Dark Future Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:13:00 - [41] if there are inties there .. doubt it :) not to mention gate camps don't get me wrong .. i love FW ... but ... except for RP rich guys ... rest will pass the offer ...
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 07:18:00 - [42] Originally by: Akhtar Leon if there are inties there .. doubt it :) not to mention gate camps don't get me wrong .. i love FW ... but ... except for RP rich guys ... rest will pass the offer ... I don't think that can stop you form warping to 0 and jumping :) but yeah you got a point minus one thing. our corp is well off and we plan and supporting our factions member :)
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.05.22 11:45:00 - [43] Originally by: Gamesguy The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions. And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare. I see the gang warfare but not the small part. 12-15 jumps in hostile territory is medium/large gang. As thing stands for the player point of view Fw seem a huge isk and time sink, even more than regular PvP where you are operating for player territorial control.
PeHD0M	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:01:00 - [44] I suggest ccp to throw away the whole idea of jump gates. Simply equip all ships with jumpdrives, wich can be used without cynofield, need some fuel to operate and warp ship to random location 100-200au from sun in destistinated solar system. This solution solves 3 problems: 1. blob-gatecamps (lagging.. lagging.. you are in clone bay.. not much fun i think) 2. unload server (because there is no need to change sessions so often) 3. no jumpgate borringness and time sink (rmb gate->warp to 0 ->waiting..->jumping->waiting..->rmb gate... repeat a lot of times: BORRING!!!) You can ballance those jumpdrive in such way so small ships can jump a lot bigger distances than big ships, so this will encourage to use small mobile ships rather than massive capitals.
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:27:00 - [45] Wow... 15 jumps to do a L3 mission while tagged on the overview in LOWSEC? This expansion gets worse and worse the more we learn about it. There is no way in hell this is going to entice Empire dwellers into pvp, and since people who are in alliances CANNOT even run these missions, the experienced pvp'ers who might be able to pull off such things are shut out. About the only way this expansion is going to get people participating is if the rewards are ridiculous. Which they should be given the extreme level of risk. Again, this is destined to fail because empire dwellers will STILL be able to make more money sticking to highsec (since they will have much fewer losses to replace), plus you still have the problem of sending people into PVP whilst doing PVE, which are two completely different fittings. I think that the big problem here is that CCP doesn't understand how EVE really works. They believe that lowsec, which is the most wild and uncontrolled area in the game (since players can't claim sov and control it, and the Empires don't effectively control it) is some "middle ground" between Empire and 0.0. It isn't, except geographically. Lowsec is where the lawless live, pirates, etc, who live off the inexperienced and the inevitability that stuff needs to be moved through lowsec at some point from 0.0 to Empire. If they really want "pvp lite" for Empire dwellers, I'm afraid it will only work if they keep it all in highsec. If they want to keep it in lowsec, it's only going to be relevant if they allow alliances in. Soon as the ganks start happening, the militias empty and the system falls into complete disuse. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my corporation or alliance.
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.05.22 12:32:00 - [46] Originally by: PeHD0M I suggest ccp to throw away the whole idea of jump gates. Simply equip all ships with jumpdrives, wich can be used without cynofield, need some fuel to operate and warp ship to random location 100-200au from sun in destistinated solar system. This solution solves 3 problems: 1. blob-gatecamps (lagging.. lagging.. you are in clone bay.. not much fun i think) 2. unload server (because there is no need to change sessions so often) 3. no jumpgate borringness and time sink (rmb gate->warp to 0 ->waiting..->jumping->waiting..->rmb gate... repeat a lot of times: BORRING!!!) You can ballance those jumpdrive in such way so small ships can jump a lot bigger distances than big ships, so this will encourage to use small mobile ships rather than massive capitals. Interesting idea. Problem is though that this wouldn't stop blobbing, it'd only stop gatecamps. Indeed, blobs would get worse since without a fixed defense point, the blob could be jumped into a system with impunity. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my corporation or alliance.
CrestoftheStars Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:44:00 - [47] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 21/05/2008 03:30:35 Originally by: isoPhotek Quote: you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you If this is true....epic fail. Well I have to disagree, I think it's a great idea, and really fun. It's not a normal mission can you can still do normal missions with non-FW agents. But it is epic fail if all you get is 60k for the risk. so would you do then? no didn't think so... so will you smile while ganking the mission runners? yer i thought so. =EPIC FAIL! no mission runner will EVER do this, the risk is insane, and butting the reward up will just result in pvp'er being even richer and mission runners getting even more poor, so it is a very bad idea all in all ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Ezekiel Sulastin Central Research Nexus	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:16:00 - [48] Originally by: CrestoftheStars so would you do then? no didn't think so... so will you smile while ganking the mission runners? yer i thought so. =EPIC FAIL! no mission runner will EVER do this, the risk is insane, and butting the reward up will just result in pvp'er being even richer and mission runners getting even more poor, so it is a very bad idea all in all The whole point of this damned thing is to encourage PVP, so that's fine. What, you're supposed to be in poverty because you shoot people? The issue is that the new mission implementation is beyond ******** and horridly imbalanced. Why even bother with FW missions given the downsides? THAT'S the issue at hand. ---- WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:16:00 - [49] Edited by: MotherMoon on 22/05/2008 16:17:39 I WOULD do them I'm the OP. you read the OP right? did you figure out I made that post? I think there is nothing wrong with a mission you complete while PvPing. good stuff. But it needs a great payout. If for instance the pay out of one of these missions was enough LP for a new faction cruiser. then hells yes I would do it, and I would do it with friends, and we'd all take 4 of them and run around . it shouldn't be 15 jumps though, it should be just into the other system somehwere. the other guys controled space. so you jump 6-7 jumps, survive, do some PvP, come back, faction cruiser. repeat. EDIT: This new missions should pay you or reward you while you PvP tjhat should be the point. actually I'm going to say it roight here, remove the bonus reward, it's not going to happen nor should it part of the design for these missions.
Zhang Ramses Chaos From Order	Posted - 2008.05.22 17:05:00 - [50] Can someone clarify something: Does a FW agent always give out the same mission? I'm going to guess that they don't. Therefore, to imply that my gang of 5-7 people can travel 20-30 jumps in lowsec and each gain the rewards for completing the mission is false. If we all start at the same agent, we'll get a variety of missions, all taking us into lowsec. And, because it seems this missions are not completed quicker by having more DPS, this will take a very very long time (think 15 mins of capture time x number of pilots + all the travel time) for even a smaller gang to complete one mission each. And if the various mission complexes each have different ship size restrictions, now what? I'm afraid these are going to be about as popular as level 5 missions.
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.22 17:19:00 - [51] The distances are a bit too high to be reasonable. People might avoid doing the missions and just contest systems insted.
Kathryn Dougans B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2008.05.22 17:25:00 - [52] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Wow... 15 jumps to do a L3 mission while tagged on the overview in LOWSEC? the beacon only appears on everyone's overview when you initiate warp to the mission site. so people would only have a couple minutes or so to try and ambush you.
Soporo	Posted - 2008.05.22 18:51:00 - [53] A couple of minutes? Just exactly how long does it take to right click/wt0 to something on the Overview, and of course the Prat ambushers won't be limited to Frigs and Cruisers... I think this will be a massive gank-fest. The only good I can see coming out of this is maybe a lot of the Empire annoyances will go back to LowSec for a while.
Kathryn Dougans B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2008.05.22 20:29:00 - [54] Originally by: Soporo A couple of minutes? Just exactly how long does it take to right click/wt0 to something on the Overview, and of course the Prat ambushers won't be limited to Frigs and Cruisers... Ambush is when they're lying in wait for you, having arrived previously. Since the beacon only pops up when you initiate warp to it, then, in order for them to be lying in wait at the entry gate, they have to have: Spotted the beacon, decided to engage, initiated warp and managed to arrive at the beacon before you do. Interceptors might be able to manage it, but a battleship isn't likely to. So if you arrive first and get through a shipsize-restricted gate, then they either have to ignore you, or use appropriate sized ships to follow. That's not an ambush though.
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.22 21:15:00 - [55] Well it seems that the 15 jump mechanic is intended. From sisi faction chat: [20:47:27] Tyrantus > 12 jumps minimum for mission? [20:48:43] CCP Kalmukaru > I say again... Enemy Territory isn't always in the next system, [20:49:42] CCP Kalmukaru > And that's where the factional warfare missions are sending you - enemy territory [20:50:37] CCP Kalmukaru > they intend on sending you deep into enemy territory. Better get a good group and nano up chaps. Future Member Of The Imperial 24th
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.05.22 21:47:00 - [56] Well, the travel distance make sense, even if 10 jumps might do the job just as well, but how are players that are forced in, say, cruiser-sized hulls by the gates of a complex, going to do when tumbling into an equal number of pirate BS? They won't pass without taking serious losses, unless they nano. That's encouraging nanofaggotry, and that's about the most effective thing you can do if you want to discourage players form doing pvp. You should just let FW players come in whatever ships they want to use. ------------------------------------------
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.05.22 22:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Tyrantus Well it seems that the 15 jump mechanic is intended. From sisi faction chat: [20:47:27] Tyrantus > 12 jumps minimum for mission? [20:48:43] CCP Kalmukaru > I say again... Enemy Territory isn't always in the next system, [20:49:42] CCP Kalmukaru > And that's where the factional warfare missions are sending you - enemy territory [20:50:37] CCP Kalmukaru > they intend on sending you deep into enemy territory. Better get a good group and nano up chaps. True, enemi territory isn't next door, but generally a good commander (and agents are doing some of the commanders functions) isn't 500 Km from the front lines.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.22 22:24:00 - [58] well once again the point of this thread isn't to change the system IF it's working as intended, However... the rewards... the bonus for the missions is pointless. So if this is how they want it lets hear some ideas on how to make them wroth it.
Mianna Foreseer	Posted - 2008.05.23 00:12:00 - [59] What I have read now I can say that FW mission are boring, stupid and only group of people cheer to the whole idea are pirates and gate campers. Since they get a change to gank noobs that try to run those missions. Whole idea to start to adjust FW mission by dropping rewards to the floor in to the cellar dont really help at all. People might actually try to do those if rewards are big. Then you would get your data to adjust the more accurate FW mission reward system. If you think any 1-4 month pilot would run those missions think again. Chance a losing a ship for nothing is high as hell in FW missions. Aaand even that some people say its FUN to pop your ship for nothing....its not fun to find out you are mining with your ibis again like in day 1. What come to older pilots...they look to rewards...time and risk and dont even try to do even a single FW mission. Basic idea again that pilot in a WAR need to get its ship and fit it all from its own wallet is kinda funny too. It make you feel to be a merc than a honorable soldier that fight in a army for your country. More humorous to the whole idea is that after grinding a month of those FW mission you may actually get a faction ship (ship type that you should have fly from first FW mission since you are now part of a army eh?) and you dont DARE to fly it since you dont wanna anyone pop it :)
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.23 00:20:00 - [60] Edited by: Tyrantus on 23/05/2008 00:24:34 Originally by: MotherMoon Quote: Basic idea again that pilot in a WAR need to get its ship and fit it all from its own wallet is kinda funny too. This is what my idea is trying to adress the idea of these mission basicly give you the LP for a ship would be much better. maybe they could be ships with no insurance payouts at all? The idea of "lets go grind 10 missions so we have 10 ships to fight with" would be much better imo. Tbh thats the way I envisioned FW rewards would be. Easy access to faction ships and mods for the justfied price of having to earn them all in low sec action. It would be really cool to have the agent offer a nice faction mod or t1 ship as a bonus for the tougher missions or even a faction ship as bonus for a multipart storyline. Now that would be some nice incentive indeed. Besides if I want or need isk I'll just pop back into empire space and run some normal missions. Future Member Of The 24th Imperial
Mianna Foreseer	Posted - 2008.05.23 00:21:00 - [61] If my critic was too abstract let me make it to IRL situation. WWII start in a country X and country X call its men to the war. First it demand that all the soldiers need to buy their eguipments and pay the training and travel tickets to the front. Country alone dont back up you at all. Basic farmer may have money to buy a helmet and old 200 years old musket and get a training where he shoot twice to a old car in some field. Then he is thrown to the meat grinder. Some rich nobles and industrial mercants may actually get some war machine under their ass. They may have some fun time since they get loads of farmers to gank on their machines but sooner or later they lose their ship too without much gains. Actual war is that you travel alone without any much back up to the enemy territory and have intention to beat all the enemy forces you may encounter. Naturally as a part of a army you need to worry about road bandits and all kind of throat cutters in the way. Since you are no matter what, hopelessly out gunned and out numbered at the start. Yeap....feel like a TOTAL WAR.
Kuzya Morozov The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.23 02:54:00 - [62] Edited by: Kuzya Morozov on 23/05/2008 02:54:43 Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 21/05/2008 03:36:06 From what I understand a new level 3 mission in FW will take 15 jumps to get to, and then once your in at the target you are automatically tagged on the overview so anyone can warp to you. For 15 jumps, and for basically giving up the protection a deadspace gives you you should get much greater rewards than 60,000 isk. You should get MORE than a normal level 3 mission... or maybe the job shouldn't pay well... hell maybe isk should be completely taken out of the reward for FW missions, make it pure LP. Not only that but then remove all isk form the LP store for the militia If you think about CCP, this system you have right now is basically, go out, do 300 missions. thus inject 9 million isk into the game and gain 100,000 lp. Now go to the LP store and spend 100,000 LP and 9 million isk... wait that's pointless if the isk is needed in LP store as an isk sink for the isk gained along with LP... why even have isk? You could still make a profit by doing the mission by selling what you trade your LP in for. One nice side effect of pure LP only missions would be giving players involved a steady supply of "free" ships. Hell don't stop there make these ships that the LP store gives out insurable for not isk but LP. Meaning you take out your LP bought faction frigate into combat, lose it, and gain LP back instead of isk. I don't know maybe I'm just really tired but I think it might be an idea with some potential. If you're tired you should stop posting :) Originally by: Mianna Foreseer If my critic was too abstract let me make it to IRL situation. WWII start in a country X and country X call its men to the war. First it demand that all the soldiers need to buy their eguipments and pay the training and travel tickets to the front. Country alone dont back up you at all. Basic farmer may have money to buy a helmet and old 200 years old musket and get a training where he shoot twice to a old car in some field. Then he is thrown to the meat grinder. Some rich nobles and industrial mercants may actually get some war machine under their ass. They may have some fun time since they get loads of farmers to gank on their machines but sooner or later they lose their ship too without much gains. Actual war is that you travel alone without any much back up to the enemy territory and have intention to beat all the enemy forces you may encounter. Naturally as a part of a army you need to worry about road bandits and all kind of throat cutters in the way. Since you are no matter what, hopelessly out gunned and out numbered at the start. Yeap....feel like a TOTAL WAR. Good job comparing EVE to WWII, I don't think I need to say anything else.
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.23 10:35:00 - [63] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Sturmwolke If ever there was an aim by CCP to also include solo style play for missions in FW, I think it's been thrown out of the window. The above only encourages roaming fleet/small gangs play style. So we split the 50-100mil payout to each person in the gang then right? Oh joy! Avg completion time shouldn't be a major criteria for adjusting payout, nor should payout be the only criteria when adjusting mission feasibility. The whole point of FW is pvp, not introducing a new way for you to ***** missions. And yes, "solo play" is not possible in FW, which is all about small GANG warfare. Don't be so quick to state the obvious (which we all know), without fully comprehending the whole gist of my previous post. From what I'd heard in the last live dev blog, FW was designed as a half-way house for many folks with different backgrounds to experience PVP without going into full 0.0 warfare. Joining the militia and fighting is all very well, however, in order to sustain their participation, many will need at least a source of stable income. If the [ISK rewards] VS [Time spent] VS [Risk taken] isn't worthwhile, then there is little point in participating in FW. Now of course you could go back to Empire to do the normal things like missioning Lvl 4 or mine some Veldspar, but you also have this this additional risk being a war target for the other militias. Notwitstanding, you are also limited to operating within the Amarr/Caldari or Minmatar/Gallente borders. As of a day or two back, apart from missions, I haven't seen anything else in FW that can translate to direct ISK income. NPC loots are all tags last I checked and killing a complex just gives standings & rank. I'm just waiting for CCP to explain the full workings of FW in terms rewards and whether one is able to sustain participation with it.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.23 10:53:00 - [64] The primary reason to do mission for your faction is NOT money or Loyalty Points, though you might get those too though, it is to increase standing with your corporation. Why? because that is what determine your rank. Now we do not know yet exactly what the practical benefits of a higher rank means or if it is only a fancy title. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute

CCP Gangleri C C P	Posted - 2008.05.23 10:55:00 - [65] Joining the militia will hamper your ability to get isk through conventional means, just like any war will. If you want to go and run lvl4 missions in high sec then you can easily do that, if a war target comes after you then your navy buddies will probably be there to help you out. The factional warfare missions and rewards themselves are not going to be very high compared to regular missions, but they are a form of "professional PvP" beacause the missions are intentionally focused on creating PvP situations and the agent rewards you for completing the mission. ------------------ Originally by: CCP PrismX Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides.

Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.05.23 11:38:00 - [66] Originally by: CCP Gangleri Joining the militia will hamper your ability to get isk through conventional means, just like any war will. If you want to go and run lvl4 missions in high sec then you can easily do that, if a war target comes after you then your navy buddies will probably be there to help you out. The factional warfare missions and rewards themselves are not going to be very high compared to regular missions, but they are a form of "professional PvP" beacause the missions are intentionally focused on creating PvP situations and the agent rewards you for completing the mission. Sorry but you are wrong. A war hamper your capability to generate income but they give you war instrument that normally you can't get (wasn't Rambo in the first film to say "During the war I could drive tanks worth millions, now they wouldn't let me drive a car to park it"?). If we are working as solders the army payy for food, medical care, weapons and trainign. If we are working as mercenaries we need to bring our own gear but then we are payed a lot. Having the drawback of mercenaries (bring your own gear) and of soldier (fighting generate no income) is a bit too much. For an historical prospective of that look the desertion rate of the american volounteers during the Revolution, especially at the start of planting season.

CCP Gangleri C C P	Posted - 2008.05.23 11:43:00 - [67] I was talking about Eve wars, not real life. In Eve a war makes it very risky to run missions, in a militia it will be risky, but you will have NPC's protecting you. Remember that this feature is meant to give pilots that enjoy the empire playstyle but want to check out some PvP a gateway to the more hardcore action you get in player run wars. It is not meant to be a fluffy cash cow. ------------------ Originally by: CCP PrismX Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides.

Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.05.23 12:08:00 - [68] Originally by: CCP Gangleri I was talking about Eve wars, not real life. In Eve a war makes it very risky to run missions, in a militia it will be risky, but you will have NPC's protecting you. Remember that this feature is meant to give pilots that enjoy the empire playstyle but want to check out some PvP a gateway to the more hardcore action you get in player run wars. It is not meant to be a fluffy cash cow. No "fluffy cash cow" ok, but the soldier don't pay the ammunition from is pocket. Someone doing the militia work should get back about the worth of the ships he will loose (and those will be a lot) and some income for the time. Do it any other way and people wiil try it for 15 days then, if they feel that PvP is wonderful, will become a pirate or join a 0.0 alliance. Those that like it enough but don't want to do it as the only activity will leave the militia very soon as they will see isk and ships disappearing fast. At the end it will be some lone player with a low sec base and a militia alt that will spawn the control sites to grab some easy tag. Thinking of that if I span a militia site, enter with a non militia character and kill the NPC militia members, I can farm the tag forever? Better for CCP to implement a timer for despawn of the sites if it don't already exist.
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.23 12:36:00 - [69] Originally by: CCP Gangleri I was talking about Eve wars, not real life. In Eve a war makes it very risky to run missions, in a militia it will be risky, but you will have NPC's protecting you. Remember that this feature is meant to give pilots that enjoy the empire playstyle but want to check out some PvP a gateway to the more hardcore action you get in player run wars. It is not meant to be a fluffy cash cow. Well, the live dev blog certainly painted an interesting picture. Now, judging from your replies, it changed to something new There was never an expectation for FW to be a fluffy cash cow. If one commits to FW full time or even part-time, the benefits needs to be tangible. Why should someone join FW when they can join an established corp for more benefits? Freebie ships, ship replacement programs, cost price purchase of ships/items and most importantly, not on a perpetual war footing. Yes, you might do a lot of fighting in FW so that you don't have to look and wait for hours for a target. Was this the intent? When you distill the current implementation to the very core. If so, then I'll bet it doesn't look very appealing to the majority of EVE players, except for the hardcore PVPers.
Vibora BR	Posted - 2008.05.23 15:22:00 - [70] Edited by: Vibora BR on 23/05/2008 15:28:47 Originally by: CCP Gangleri Joining the militia will hamper your ability to get isk through conventional means, just like any war will. If you want to go and run lvl4 missions in high sec then you can easily do that, if a war target comes after you then your navy buddies will probably be there to help you out. The factional warfare missions and rewards themselves are not going to be very high compared to regular missions, but they are a form of "professional PvP" beacause the missions are intentionally focused on creating PvP situations and the agent rewards you for completing the mission. So basically what you gain to risk your expensive stuff defending a Faction in FW is the chance to PVP? You can't make ISKs properly in this period, you can't use implants for fast training and all you gain is the chance to PVP, funny. Thank you but you can already do it with better chances in gate camps.
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:12:00 - [71] I gotta confess my enthusiasm for FW is starting to wane over the apparent lack of tangible rewards. I've been waiting eagerly for the dev blog that was going to explain the rewards structure, but now I begin to suspect that we won't get that dev blog because there isn't anything interesting in the rewards structure for FW. I still hope I'm wrong, but it's not sounding good from the offhand comments. Based on what I've seen and heard and am hearing: 1) No interesting loot on the FW rats (on SISI, obviously could change, no hint that it will as of yet) 2) Nothing unique in the FW militia LP stores (hints that this could change in future extensions of the FW concept) 3) FW mission rewards deliberately much smaller than regular mission rewards, by design, for missions that are very slow to complete and very easy to fail 4) No tangible benefits to control of systems that you successfully fight for (still hoping this isn't the case, but none have been come to light yet) What we do get is bragging rights: 1) Rank (a very pretty badge, no known effect on game play at this time, possible future access to rank-limited missions) 2) Positive standings with militia corp and (presumably) derived standings with others, both positive and negative. There's obviously a lot I don't understand from a few quick trips out on SISI and reading these boards. But it's starting to get worrisome. Everything I do in Eve, I do because (a) it's fun, and (b) it lets me make enough ISK and/or loot so that I can keep improving my fleet. FW still holds out a lot of hope on the fun front, but so far, not so much on the "improving my fleet" front. Can we still hope for a "FW rewards" dev blog, or is this a "what we see is all there will be" situation? ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:49:00 - [72] Originally by: Marlenus 1) No interesting loot on the FW rats (on SISI, obviously could change, no hint that it will as of yet) Gurista loot from Caldari navy, logs included . Quote: 2) Nothing unique in the FW militia LP stores (hints that this could change in future extensions of the FW concept) Nothing in the LP store, at least for now.
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:53:00 - [73] Edited by: Gypsio III on 23/05/2008 16:52:58 Originally by: Marlenus careblah PVP is the reward. It really is as simple as that.
Greenbolt Un4seen Development	Posted - 2008.05.23 17:01:00 - [74] Edited by: Greenbolt on 23/05/2008 17:01:30 Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 23/05/2008 16:52:58 Originally by: Marlenus careblah PVP is the reward. It really is as simple as that. this. The whole point of this is to make a battlegrounds like isk sink where people go n get blown up alot for titles/achievements and other bragging/epeen rights. If it generates areas with constant pvp..it will have succeeded. My worries are : 1.Once a few alliances (Privateer or bored goons for example) / large pirate corps decide to just move in and gank everyone it will be like L5 missions. most people dont bother. 2. Because its going to cost isk to replace losses..and your at war everywhere..most FW members will be alts anyway 3. Im not jumping 30 jumps round trip for a mission period..long travel is boring. Not fun. Time sink which is a fun sink. Possibel solutions that ill use to deal with it 1. I fully expect this to occur..and is as entended. 2. Eh who cares? Ill test it with an alt anyway and use my main to pay for ships etc 3. I guess better to sneak into enemy lines and just hope a friendly group makes a call for support where your already operating. This makes nanocrap and cloaking mandatory. Just my random thoughts and worries. --------------------------------------------------- Scordite -Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.23 17:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Gypsio III PVP is the reward. It really is as simple as that. I'm glad that works for you. The hype for this expansion suggested there would be more. It's the "more" (or the growing concern there won't be any) that was the subject of my post. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.05.23 19:26:00 - [76] Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition? You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish. _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/
Vibora BR	Posted - 2008.05.23 19:36:00 - [77] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition? You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish. But the game updates shouldn't be for all fishes that support the game?
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.23 19:43:00 - [78] Originally by: Vibora BR Originally by: DigitalCommunist Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition? You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish. But the game updates shouldn't be for all fishes that support the game? Explain then the cap ships and all the goodies for 0.0 only that have been the entier content for earler expansions? This is the first expansion thats almost completely targeted at empire players and a very welcome one. Future Member Of The 24th Imperial
Zhang Ramses Chaos From Order	Posted - 2008.05.23 20:54:00 - [79] How did the devs sit around and come up with this without anyone raising the objections we've seen here? FW missions limit the types of ships you can fly and always send you into lowsec. Lowsec pilots who aren't participating in FW can kill you in whatever ships they like. You've gotta be nuts if you don't see that this warrants extra, tangible rewards. The fact that this is aimed at newer pilots seems almost malicious.
Vibora BR	Posted - 2008.05.23 21:35:00 - [80] Originally by: Zhang Ramses How did the devs sit around and come up with this without anyone raising the objections we've seen here? FW missions limit the types of ships you can fly and always send you into lowsec. Lowsec pilots who aren't participating in FW can kill you in whatever ships they like. You've gotta be nuts if you don't see that this warrants extra, tangible rewards. The fact that this is aimed at newer pilots seems almost malicious. Seems as this expansion intends to give more targets to pirates and gate campers. At the end they are also part of EVE Leave to God protect the noobs.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.23 22:05:00 - [81] quick point :) If FW gave out nothing but LP, and it gave out faction frigates and cruisers then it wouldn't be a cash cow because these ships would be so common that they wouldn't sell for much... then again you don't want to over the guys building tech 1 ships... It just needs something, not isk based, for doing missions. and if PvP is going to be as common as I think in FW then well.. if ships were easier to get for your faction we would see, more of the factions flying thier own ships, and more people going out with the mindset of, it's ok to die.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.23 22:09:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Just to reiterate the point that we make every single time new missions are added: the payouts are based on average completion time and it takes a while for the system to populate with useful data. Until then the payouts are going to be much lower than you'd expect Weren't you supposed to fix that this patch so that payouts started high and then got lower? If they start low and get high later no one runs the missions because they aren't worth it. The system never gets populated and the value for the missions never reaches its ideal state.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.23 22:14:00 - [83] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition? You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish. No, this would only happen if FW gave good monetary rewards compared to moon mining high end mods. FW can still give good money/other rewards without it being a magnet to large 0.0 entities. There is nothing wrong with other areas of the game having resource competition as a driving force towards PvP in that area. Its only a problem when the buy in is low and the rewards are higher or as high as other areas where the buy in is larger. I.E. its only a problem if the risk/reward is out of whack.
Guldari Nokulman	Posted - 2008.05.24 00:05:00 - [84] I'm more than a little confused by the "it to promote PVP that costs isk" stance. You can already very easily go and do no reward PVP in low sec, and look how popular that is... While i can understand not wanting to make the isk rewards to big, but at the very least you should be able to get more LP goodies. After all isn't that what collecting the tags is all about? Also why for the love of god is there a 12 jump minimum? Surely if you are already in lowsec that should be enough? 12 jumps will certainly guarantee action but I thought the idea was to fight in the deadspace, where you actually stand a chance against ships of similar class? 12 jumps just means you will run into a camp of ridiculous odds and fail. And if you run into said camp after 10 jumps, are you going to jump into ship after ship jumping ten jumps each time only to know that you can't beat those t2 ships in your t1's because you can only take t1 into the gate... (takes breath) Sorry, but the devs response to valid points has put me off a bit.
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.24 01:38:00 - [85] Originally by: Guldari Nokulman I'm more than a little confused by the "it to promote PVP that costs isk" stance. You can already very easily go and do no reward PVP in low sec, and look how popular that is... Before FW low sec only lost you isk. Now with FW it will let you fight over hardcoded fps style objectives that give you tons of tags and faction standing towards your faction of choice. Missions? Dunno about them tbh. Future Member Of The 24th Imperial
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:48:00 - [86] Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/05/2008 03:51:42 Originally by: Vibora BR Originally by: DigitalCommunist Yeah, just a thought buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut maybe we already have 0.0 for resource competition? You make FW yield good monetary rewards and I guarantee you the big fish will come and eat all you little fish. But the game updates shouldn't be for all fishes that support the game? unless the rewards for FW are not monetary, yes yes I know isk makes eve go around. with 0.0 space in place and close to FW why have any part of FW give out isk. maybe my idea is bad maybe there is another reward that can help the player continue PvPing but still have to go out and get isk with missions and 0.0 space. Quote: No, this would only happen if FW gave good monetary rewards compared to moon mining high end mods. FW can still give good money/other rewards without it being a magnet to large 0.0 entities. here is a great point, if my idea was used, you would gain tops a cruiser. This is not a faction battleship which can cost upwards of 700 million but a small cruiser wroth tops 10-20 million. but by making these new ships more common they could be wroth 7-8 million. This doesn't seem like a bad reward, and if you never get isk.. The trick to it is the largest ship you can get into FW deadspace areas IS cruisers, thus I think FW should be based around frigate and cruiser rewards.
Vibora BR	Posted - 2008.05.24 04:05:00 - [87] Edited by: Vibora BR on 24/05/2008 04:05:29 I think that when you enlist to FW you should get in borrow a faction ship which you are not able to sell, trade and if you leave the FW it is gotten back. Like a soldier when goes to war doesn't need to buy the rifle. In this way I would go fight wherever they want. By each rank gained you should get better ship and war stuff, so at a very high rank the stuff should be given to be your as reward. This just an idea that can be worked to became something affordable to the game.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.24 04:11:00 - [88] Originally by: Vibora BR Edited by: Vibora BR on 24/05/2008 04:05:29 I think that when you enlist to FW you should get in borrow a faction ship which you are not able to sell, trade and if you leave the FW it is gotten back. Like a soldier when goes to war doesn't need to buy the rifle. In this way I would go fight wherever they want. By each rank gained you should get better ship and war stuff, so at a very high rank the stuff should be given to be your as reward. This just an idea that can be worked to became something affordable to the game. This another good idea. However then there should be something you have to do to get the ship back... like pick up your new ship in the furthur system. this way the more space you lose the more dangerous it becomes for the advaning team to attack. Also it should be timed like once every 3 hours? or just use my idea agian of you get a chgeap faction ship for running 30 JUMPS. unless CCP does somethying else... I don't know I find it hard to support an idea that would hurt the people that build ships. so sadlly auto ship without anything even a 1 day timer once you lose the ship.. I can't support it 100%.
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.24 05:20:00 - [89] Originally by: Vibora BR Edited by: Vibora BR on 24/05/2008 04:05:29 I think that when you enlist to FW you should get in borrow a faction ship which you are not able to sell, trade and if you leave the FW it is gotten back. I think the concept is fine, but there's nothing stopping the militia from utilizing these ships to blow other targets in Empire. If you can limit its usage within the warzone, then it might just be workable. Even then, god knows players will find an exploit or two to get around it. From my own thoughts, it would be good if NPC militia corps offer all T1/T2/Faction ships, misc equipments/ammo and modules a a pricing determined by your rank status. It should only be payable via LPs or possibly tags (which could potentially be a candidate for an abuse). This way, you have a form where players are encouraged to PVP for more LPs, yet at the same time, replace loses without too much pain. However, as time goes by, there's bound to be a few uber PVPers with enough LPs and rank to cash in on the LP store offers and it turns into a cash cow ... so we're back to square one. Another angle to look from is special militia insurance scheme. - For T1 ships, Full insurance (at a very cheap rate)- INCLUDING rigs! - For T2 ships, Full insurance (at standard rate) - EXCLUDING rigs. - For Cap ships, well, hmm .... let's leave that to CCP This encourages more folks to use T1 ships and ensures that newbies aren't too disadvantaged. To prevent abuse, this insurance should only be claimable in any of the FW warzone systems. So if you lose your ship in Empire highsec (or anywhere else), it's void and your **** out of luck.
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.24 05:26:00 - [90] You guys are getting too deep. Use the K.I.S.S. principle and just make it so FW missions give out uber lp but crappy isk. The market will then sort itself out if a few uber soldiers who rarely lose a ship sell the excess off. Future Member Of The 24th Imperial
Artassaut Oblivion Amalgamated Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.05.24 10:40:00 - [91] Quote: If FW gave out nothing but LP, and it gave out faction frigates and cruisers then it wouldn't be a cash cow because these ships would be so common that they wouldn't sell for much... then again you don't want to over the guys building tech 1 ships... Simple fix, make the Faction ship require the T1 base as a trade plus the LP. ---- Space for rent!
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.05.24 11:47:00 - [92] Originally by: Tyrantus Originally by: Guldari Nokulman I'm more than a little confused by the "it to promote PVP that costs isk" stance. You can already very easily go and do no reward PVP in low sec, and look how popular that is... Before FW low sec only lost you isk. Now with FW it will let you fight over hardcoded fps style objectives that give you tons of tags and faction standing towards your faction of choice. Missions? Dunno about them tbh. Have you tryed loting the "tons of tags" in the encounter complex (I see you have already discounted the possibility of running after the missions)? As you need to stay in range of the control point all the time you will not gather the loot for 10-20 minutes, then you can add the nice time sink of gatehring the tag. Don't seem exactly functional.
GreatKroma	Posted - 2008.05.24 12:28:00 - [93] Quick pointer regarding the missions and the atm seemingly non existent intelligence/ communication channels. If these missions are intended to stimulate conflict between the militias and create more pvp opportunities then these must be intrinsically linked to some form of communication or intelligence scheme. for example... an interface that shows mothermoon has just recieved a mission and is looking for milita support... join.. mothermoon accepts the join request.. and u have a gang.... because atm... with just a pseudo alliance channel there will be no coordination.. no strategy and no tactics which will mean that only player groups like corporations that have enlisted, who already have their own strategic options in place (voice comms forums mailing list etc) will be capable of fighting the FW wars with considerable effectiveness. There should be something in place to allow the militias to coordinate tactics.. (screw spammers and alt spies give us some means of communication!) i dont see why it should not be integrated into an improved mission system. that actually brings rewards to assigned missions (i.e capturing a system faster) to dissuade people from just farming the systems themselves without getting involved in the missions. As mentioned earlier some sort of rewards system(that doesnt affect pvp) but still has tangible rewards (perhaps within logistical financial areas). thanks for ur time
Goberth Ludwig eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.24 15:24:00 - [94] FW as it is now is a complete farce tbh - shiny ranks and nice words like "creating scenarios for small scale pvp warfare outside the blob" which may make great marketing but game mechanic wise, you are doing nothing new just making 4 npc corps that are at war with each other and adding a bunch of structures that detect presence of players within 30 kilometres for control points. Its still the same low sec. Its still the same mechanics of blob, cyno bomb, nano, cloak. There is nothing new added to motivate people to take part in this apart from unconsequential badges/ranks, because it was too much effort balancing a new resource injection/isk sink while at it right? The whole idea of "dangerous" missions into enemy territory to be ran in pvp fittings with a gang backing you up is interesting but again you put 0 thought in it and just created missions that are identical to old ones (spawn X cruiers Y battleships) - and made the beacon appear on overview. You even kept the same stupid system to balance LP rewards that already failed to work for level 5 missions - because god forbid you would spend time balancing the new content you create, lets have the computer take care of that instead right? - Gob
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.24 18:32:00 - [95] Originally by: Artassaut Quote: If FW gave out nothing but LP, and it gave out faction frigates and cruisers then it wouldn't be a cash cow because these ships would be so common that they wouldn't sell for much... then again you don't want to over the guys building tech 1 ships... Simple fix, make the Faction ship require the T1 base as a trade plus the LP. you my friend, are amazing. thank you :)
Tyrantus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.24 18:39:00 - [96] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Artassaut Quote: If FW gave out nothing but LP, and it gave out faction frigates and cruisers then it wouldn't be a cash cow because these ships would be so common that they wouldn't sell for much... then again you don't want to over the guys building tech 1 ships... Simple fix, make the Faction ship require the T1 base as a trade plus the LP. you my friend, are amazing. thank you :) That solution works for me. Navy faction ships should have always been on the common side with the much much harder to get Pirate faction ships the big isk makers. Future Member Of The 24th Imperial
Nuyan Zahedi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.25 10:04:00 - [97] Originally by: CCP Gangleri Joining the militia will hamper your ability to get isk through conventional means, just like any war will. If you want to go and run lvl4 missions in high sec then you can easily do that, if a war target comes after you then your navy buddies will probably be there to help you out. The factional warfare missions and rewards themselves are not going to be very high compared to regular missions, but they are a form of "professional PvP" beacause the missions are intentionally focused on creating PvP situations and the agent rewards you for completing the mission. .. What? I was hoping Factional Warfare would do something with the currently fundamentally flawed Risk vs Reward in EVE. I mean, Risk vs Reward is everything in a game like EVE. If you do a lvl 4 mission where you have 50+% chance to get your ship blown up, there should be a much bigger reward than in a lvl4 mission where you have close to zero risk. That should be pretty obvious. I don't know how big the rewards for FW missions should be, but even 300/400% higher probably isn't even that much of a magnet compared to the zero-risk lvl4 high-sec stuff. Even then the majority of people would continue to make more ISK with the old lvl4 missions. -- My blog
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:40:00 - [98] I still think that instanced missions would be more fun and drive people to do FW. Missions would require gangs from both sides to accept, one side would have an offensive mission, the other defensive, points for shiptypes would require strategic thinking about gang set-up and you be ensured that the resultant PVP would be fun for both parties. I know that the hardcore EVE players are opposed, but if youhave to "live" on EVE to have fun then it really isn't much of a game now is it. As it has been said already there is really nothing that been added to FW that is really any different than what exists today, except that the missions are going to be a lot harder to complete. In the short term you will have some that try and the pirates/griefers will love it. 1 month later, CCP will be asking why no one cares abouth FW, and lowsec is empty again. They have to realize that at lest 2/3 of EVE are casual players and the 1/3 that aren't are already provided for.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:26:00 - [99] oh you poor soul... ever wonder why you don't see many pirate gangs in 0.0 space? there's a reason.
Vim Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:46:00 - [100] The reason being that everyone and their mother comes running to drive them off? Or that you can usualy just warp to pos, wait for hunter to go away, return to ratting just where you left off(Unlike missions, time bonous, wrecks despawning, travel several gates... timesink to have to redo) And ofc, everyone is bothering about keeping the small enemy away because, theres riches to be found on a personal level. Beacon in space where you are=theres only one belt in any system=>Warp to, scram, pewpew. fw missions/lowsec atm >>> 0.0 risk for the least risk vs reward output anywhere.
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:42:00 - [101] Originally by: MotherMoon oh you poor soul... ever wonder why you don't see many pirate gangs in 0.0 space? there's a reason. yes controll of 0.0 offers the corp/alliance moon mining, lots of isk with little time commitment. and to individuals it offers the best ratting and mising that you are invested to defend. FW offers you...... Ranks and a promise of PVP that will turn out to be hollow. Change the rewards to match the risk, or change the mechanics to make it better.
CrestoftheStars Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2008.05.26 00:47:00 - [102] Originally by: Marlenus Edited by: Marlenus on 21/05/2008 22:13:14 The first mission I got offered was a 16-jump affair, for a level one mission offering 25LP. I understand that the rewards will go up once the system is populated with completion-time data. But I'm having a hard time imagining them ever going up so high as to make a 32-jump round trip FUN. There seems to be a fun-factor problem with the FW mission designs. Travel is boring ... yes it may get punctuated by combat excitements, but the rest of the time, it's still boring. Just my two ISK. Edit: I declined the mission. lol that¿s under 1 lp per jump XD ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Guns nButter The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.26 08:27:00 - [103] i think ccp needs to adjust the rewards to be HIGHER than average when they first implement this system on TQ, so that LOTS of people will flock to do them, thus populating the system with data QUICKLY and reducing the rewards to averages QUICKLY. i don't think people would mind their rewards going down slightly as compared to having them extremely low for a long time >.>
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2008.05.26 09:01:00 - [104] Honestly, if you have to go back to high sec and do some missions to make more isk for FW (or any other PvP activity since they arent so much different as far as i can see), FW will suffer from the same symptoms as Low Sec. Not that low sec is bad, its just that low sec is more intimidating to average high sec player, which also seems to be the target of next expension, ironicly. Rewards should be on par (or higher) with high sec missions, perhaps should be more profitable then current L4 missions. Only then people will be convinced to try it out and decide if they love it or not. If they like PvP, fine, they can do occasional PvP missions and continue their carrier as PvPers. PvP should be the goal, not reward, as long as it remains as a "reward", it wont be embraced by high sec dwellers, which again, is the target audience for this expension.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.26 21:17:00 - [105] new details up, faction cruisers will cost 90k LP FW missions give out 25 lp do the math :/ and lets say it auto balances to... 200 lp! still do the math. Nah I'll do it for you guys :) 450 missions times 30 1350 jumps for a basic faction cruiser if LP is raised.
Vibora BR	Posted - 2008.05.27 03:27:00 - [106] Edited by: Vibora BR on 27/05/2008 03:27:20 Originally by: Siona Windweaver .... Rewards should be on par (or higher) with high sec missions, perhaps should be more profitable then current L4 missions. Only then people will be convinced to try it out and decide if they love it or not. If they like PvP, fine, they can do occasional PvP missions and continue their carrier as PvPers. ... Reward needs to be balanced with risk. If in a L4 mission with very low risk you can make 10M+ in 1 hour (including looting and salvaging). In a FW mission that is 30 times more dangerous and time consuming (30 jumps) the reward needs to be compatible, maybe not 30 times higher but at least 20 or 15. But imagine do it for less than a L4 mission reward In the way it is you will spend like 10 BattleCruisers and 5 BattleShips in FW missions before you get near to earn LPs enough to a Faction Cruiser (That isn't that good). It is not funny or even deserves the effort.
Oakrayven Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.05.27 04:23:00 - [107] Ive come to the conclusion that CCP is the initials in their native language for Mindbogelingly Stupid Idiots Seriously. they have been doing this for how many years now? they say they want more PvP to happen. . . So they develop Faction Warfare. . . so in theory at least every time you undock to participate you have a 50% chance of loseing your ship your modules, your guns and your implants. . . but in order for faction warfare to happen you have to . . . Run missions that are longer (jumpwise) than any other missions with time constraints that are tighter than any current mission out their in low sec systems that will probably be stocked with members from hostile factions ready and willing to blow you to hell useing the same Penalise the HELL out of you for failing mission system with mission payouts that make Q -18 mission agents that hate you and you have 3 cha the liveing definition of monty haul by comparison. Seriously did you guys even stop to think why Level 5s are a total failure now? and your bright idea was to create EVEN HARDER, LONGER, MORE TIME RESTRICTED MISSIONS, INCREASE THE RISK OF BEING HUNTED DOWN IN YOUR MISSION SYSTEM, PAINT A PERMINENT "WARDECK" ON THE PARTICIPANTS, AND GIVE WORSE PAYOUTS? GET A ***** CLUE! YOU CLAIM YOU WANT MORE P V P TO HAPPEN, HERE IS A NEWS FLASH, YOU HAVE TO PUT MORE ISK-SHIPS-MODULES-RIGS-WEAPONS-IMPLANTS-AMMO IN THE PLAYERS HANDS, WHY? PVP HAS A HABIT OF GETTING THOES THINGS BLOWN TO HELL, AND THE MORE PVP THAT HAPPENS THE MORE OF THOES YOU HAVE TO PUT INTO THE !@#$ GAME TO REPLACE ALL THE LOSSES THAT HAPPEN IN PVP. ********************************************* Trust Aura. Aura is Your Friend. If your too paranoid to play EVE. . . [right]Then your not Paranoid
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.27 09:42:00 - [108] easy on the caps mate CCP play this game too. I just don't think they are realising how offen ships will be lost :) I mean they have one point tech one cruiser are cheap cheap cheap and with insurance I could lose most likely around 400 of them with my current isk. But at the same time, minus your caps, you have a point. We need more ships... maybe weaker than tech 1 cruisers and frigates sold in the LP store? tech 0?
Zantei	Posted - 2008.05.27 09:51:00 - [109] I'd still make more money ratting in 0.0, no? I'd still get more PVP in 0.0, no? I haven't really been paying attention to this FW stuff. :[
Forge Lag	Posted - 2008.05.27 10:33:00 - [110] Ah, CCP does realize. They have all the numbers about L5. They want us to lose ships and trash our standings. They want us to lose stuff because losing stuff is grease in the EvE machine. They just treat us as bigger losers and idiots than we can ever be. On a related note they think people will play for nothing but FUN. It does not work that way in EvE, sadly. Though we will make good fun out of the Steam kiddies before they leave drained and with worthless characters. Also there is some legacy design paradigm that lowsec makes safe PvP playground. Lowsec is where the law protects the gankers. I rather go solo into nullsec any day - safer, more money, better feel, no harm to my everyday highsec life.
Carniflex Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.05.27 10:47:00 - [111] Originally by: Kathryn Dougans Ambush is when they're lying in wait for you, having arrived previously. Since the beacon only pops up when you initiate warp to it, then, in order for them to be lying in wait at the entry gate, they have to have: Spotted the beacon, decided to engage, initiated warp and managed to arrive at the beacon before you do. Interceptors might be able to manage it, but a battleship isn't likely to. So if you arrive first and get through a shipsize-restricted gate, then they either have to ignore you, or use appropriate sized ships to follow. That's not an ambush though. If that inty arrives at the gate before you he will have to keep you scrammed max 20 seconds, until his battleship buddies arrive. I assume you are aware that you can't use acceleration gate while warp scrammed ? It's relatively easy to get inties going at ~20 au/s in warp, allowing them in most cases to arrive at location approx 1 second earlier, or at same time as you do (over distances where you can arrive at your max warp speed and stay there few seconds). And I happen to have also question about auto balance system. Does this mean, that caps on maximum rewards will be removed ? Bcos if not then no amount of scaling will help you, as mission rewards just hit the cap and be still utter crap.
War Fairy	Posted - 2008.05.27 15:53:00 - [112] Simple solution: Have the militia store sell cheap but good items for VP. For example the Republic Militia Autocannon. Make them the same or better than existing high metalevel items. Make them cheaper than existing high metalevel items. Make them only usable by militia members. Done. FW is now self sustaining.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 17:56:00 - [113] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Kathryn Dougans Ambush is when they're lying in wait for you, having arrived previously. Since the beacon only pops up when you initiate warp to it, then, in order for them to be lying in wait at the entry gate, they have to have: Spotted the beacon, decided to engage, initiated warp and managed to arrive at the beacon before you do. Interceptors might be able to manage it, but a battleship isn't likely to. So if you arrive first and get through a shipsize-restricted gate, then they either have to ignore you, or use appropriate sized ships to follow. That's not an ambush though. If that inty arrives at the gate before you he will have to keep you scrammed max 20 seconds, until his battleship buddies arrive. I assume you are aware that you can't use acceleration gate while warp scrammed ? It's relatively easy to get inties going at ~20 au/s in warp, allowing them in most cases to arrive at location approx 1 second earlier, or at same time as you do (over distances where you can arrive at your max warp speed and stay there few seconds). Possible, but not too likely, especially with UI lag. Still, when opening up a site, I'd definitely align prior to warping in. It might also be worth warping to the nearest celestial / bm first to minimize warp time. The primary danger from MWD tacklers will be inside the site though. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2008.05.28 20:41:00 - [114]

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