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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
RijS3
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Posted - 2008.06.24 08:00:00 -
[871]
/sign /me starts thinking on canceling subscription
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Murrukan
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Posted - 2008.06.24 08:44:00 -
[872]
/sign
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Ryan Scouse'UK
omen.
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Posted - 2008.06.24 08:46:00 -
[873]
Not that it matters much but my accounts run out on Nov 08 , 3 accounts - why should I pay ú35 x 3 for two months of eve are you mad ? . Cya later you joke, It was good while it lasted.
no EVE related content in signature. ~Weatherman |
Meet Popsicle
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Posted - 2008.06.24 14:12:00 -
[874]
/signed
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Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.24 14:16:00 -
[875]
Originally by: Avalira Edited by: Avalira on 22/06/2008 21:48:23 There are a few things that bother me with this rather sly announcement.
First thing is that this constitutes a price raise 35% while the announcement seems to try to avoid the very topic by saying it's "To simplify the ETC reseller program and attune our product offerings with industry standards". CCP if you want to raise the prices say so clearly, I hate having to take out my calculator just to see I'm being taken for a ride.
Secondly some of us find it useful to buy only a 30-day card or a 90-day card. What was the real reason in removing them? And since when does CCP obey to industry standards? Isn't innovating the way forward? Then why not actually give us more options instead of reducing them, like perhaps 120-day cards?
So in short the issue I want to bring to the CSM is: - Have CCP tell us why they are increasing prices, and if this will affect credit card users. Edit: A sticky in the general forums says no. Only GTC prices are affected by this price change. - Why remove the 30 & 90 day time codes and at the same time introducing a more expensive option. - Bring them back, even if they have to be at the same price per month as the new prices.
And my concerns are that it will negatively impact the player base. It might not seem like a big raise to some but having to pay more might cause players to leave or not subscribe at all. So what are CCP doing to make sure that doesn't happen.
I'm apologise if this sounds like a little rant, I just feel CCP could at least have made a more informative news article for something this important.
Edit:
Originally by: Inanna Zuni +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This subject was discussed during the CSM-CCP meeting today. Although both sides recognised that this is a commercial decision for CCP and not directly within the remit of the CSM the issues involved have been taken on board by CCP and any announcement by them will be made in due course. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IZ
link to post
CSM has no business dictating or advising CCP on it's billing practices. CSM just makes recomendations about some game mechanics change ideas if and only if, they get voted for by 5% of the playerbase - where the playerbase is the nr of accounts.
I haven't read the thread and i have no intention of doing so, but if any CSM actually took this thread seriously, it just goes to show you, that not even them, knew what they were voted for.
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Loreth
V.L.A.S.T. Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.06.24 14:34:00 -
[876]
I dont see a problem of adding 60 day cards. However i dont see a real reason to remove the 90 day ones too. This topic needs more support !
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Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.24 14:39:00 -
[877]
Originally by: Loreth I dont see a problem of adding 60 day cards. However i dont see a real reason to remove the 90 day ones too. This topic needs more support !
Where's that bit from Family Guy about undecided voters ... when Lois was campaigning. I never find it when i need it. :(
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Kirikarasu
Shadow Company Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.24 22:07:00 -
[878]
Edited by: Kirikarasu on 24/06/2008 22:08:45 Edited by: Kirikarasu on 24/06/2008 22:07:53 almost 900 posts and not a single answer from ccp, this might mean the end of my game with them. and it looks like alot of people seem to feel the same way.
Congratulations to ccp from messing up an awsome Idea, the buying gtc's with isk was one of the main reasons i was sticking with this game. no way im going to pay more for the same experience. -----------------------------------------------
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Smacko Thug
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.25 04:33:00 -
[879]
Originally by: Setana Manoro
CSM has no business dictating or advising CCP on it's billing practices. CSM just makes recomendations about some game mechanics change ideas if and only if, they get voted for by 5% of the playerbase - where the playerbase is the nr of accounts.
I haven't read the thread and i have no intention of doing so, but if any CSM actually took this thread seriously, it just goes to show you, that not even them, knew what they were voted for.
Remember why the CSM was implimented??
Corrupts devs (Hi T20) GM's caught cheating etc etc etc...
Game mechanics are a part of their Job, and your post, just shows, that you have no clue what they were voted for.
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Darul Naki
Octet Sunrise
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Posted - 2008.06.25 06:38:00 -
[880]
/signed
CCP just want to raise, sorry to "level", the ETC subscription price. ^^ |
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Tomsudy
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.06.25 06:54:00 -
[881]
tbh one of the worst things ccp has done
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Uncle Mo
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:11:00 -
[882]
/signed
Taking away choice is bad. --------------------------------------------- Official US ambassador to the UK.
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Antodias
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.25 14:06:00 -
[883]
Edited by: Antodias on 25/06/2008 14:06:38 Raising the prices and introducing a seemingly arbitrary timecard while removing options is one of the most ignorant decisions I have seen in a long time.
I won't be renewing my subscription if this stays, since I don't especially enjoy grinding isks 5 days a week just so I can get to do it all over again next month. Cheers.
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dodge2005
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.25 14:58:00 -
[884]
I support this, please dont get rid of 30/90 days!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.25 15:02:00 -
[885]
Well its not going to be popular with this thread. But since this is a big issue and people are understandably interested to hear the answers to the questions we asked:
***
The answer is basically they (CCP) don't like the the various grades of GTC's because it over-complicates the admin and it does nothing good for CCP's profits.
Ultimately they'd prefer people to be directly subscribing by credit cards (or alternative payment means) and while GTC's are going to be there as a fall back option they feel no obligation to support all the various types we used to have or keep them at the same effective discount they've become true the relative weakness of the US dollar.
Pressing them on the issue yielded the very honest answer:
Eve is a premium product with a huge development effort, high class graphics and major design on new features and functions. Stuff like Walking in Stations is a whole new graphic engine thats world class in the industry and fundamentally its our choice as to whether we want to pay for quality or not.
So the outcome is basically:
60 days cards is what there'll be and we need to understand that CCP would much rather people directly subscribe by credit card / or alternative payment method straight to their accounts - more money gets to ccp development that way, and as gamers we have to decide whether we are happy paying a bit more of a premium product or not. Eve was never designed to be a discount MMO and is never going to be priced that way.
We did make the point that it would have been better for CCP to be more honest about this message rather than mix it up in slippery marketing spiel and claims that this was an "industry standard" pricing structure and that kind of thing.
They agreed. In the future we should get less market-speak and more plain-talking.
Full answer will be covered in the minutes when we get them published but thats pretty much what it'll record. I know its not what a lot of your wanted to hear but I can see their point, and I've got to say from my own experience of the gaming industry I do respect this kind of "want-the-payment-direct-sentiment" - it works for a quality outfit like Stardock, and does ensure that our subscription and payment goes on a far more direct route to development funding than typically occurs when funds get chased around the table in the marketing and distribution sphere.
End of the day, I started paying in GTC's last year too. My reason was simple economy, the relative weakness of the dollar made buying GTC's for dollars a no-brainer for a euro based player simply because it was 33% cheaper. CCP have told us they'd rather we subscribed directly and all payed the same rate. Sure we'd gotten used to a discount but ultimately we've all got to decide whether going back to the paying the basic rate is worth it. For me it is, and I can respect the honesty in describing this game as a premium product that costs premium rates. Seeing the significant investment still going into Eve and getting first hand insight into future and upcoming expansions helps of course - but ultimately, everyone needs to reach their own understanding with personal budgets and just how much you are prepared to pay for your entertainment.
For me its pretty easy, I don't buy the cheapest beer in the pub, and I don't expect all beers to cost the same. No reason why all mmorpgs should be a uniform price either and I'm happy to make a payment decision based on what I perceive Eve is worth rather than comparing it to other products and lamenting the loss of weak dollar GTC discounts. Hope everyone finds this answer informative.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
QwaarJet
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.06.25 16:01:00 -
[886]
This issue brings up the problem with the CSM. There isn't really any real power there. If CCP refuse to address this issue (as they are) then no one can do anything about it.
If so many people want the cards changed back, then CCP should do it, regardless. I expect quite a few subscribers will be lost due to this.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.06.25 16:20:00 -
[887]
Well the "power" was the power to ask a question and get an answer. We can question ccp, we can make suggestions, we can set priorities for fixes to game issues and generally influence the future development of gameplay focus. Thats all pretty impressive stuff.
But sometimes we're going to get answers that the player base didn't want to hear, and sometimes answers we specifically didn't want to hear and its up to us as discerning adults to just understand we don't always get our own way.
I didn't get "my way" on the destructible outposts thing. But I got to ask the question and got a very detailed response, respectful discussion and ultimately a potentially excellent compromise solution on the issue.
Other Items on the agenda besides the GTC's got a "no" for various reasons, but all of the refusals were respectfully presented and informatively justified by CCP.
I think its very important to realize that CSM is not a wish fulfillment mechanism, if we're taking ISSUEs to ccp we have to explain why they are in the interests of the community and just how they will benefit the game just as ccp need to tell us their reasons and position.
On GTC's sure its hard that some people (myself included) will now pay more for our subscription, but I do respect being told straight that the change means more money for ccp and more money for development that will keep Eve online as a premium product in the industry.
End of the day, they promised we'd get the chance to make proposals, raise issues, ask questions and get substantive and detailed answers from senior staff at ccp.
They kept that promise.
Now the challenge to the community is to best use the CSM procedure to benefit the game of eve online for all of us.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.06.25 17:20:00 -
[888]
I think a very clear indication of CCP not being swayed by the vocal minority. The plain fact is that the previous GTC structure did not make financial sense for them to keep. And arguing against a company looking after its bottom line because of the insignificant dent it puts on your own pocket is not really effective.
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Feng Schui
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.06.25 18:16:00 -
[889]
Well, that seals the deal then.
-1 account on July 24th. I'll train a long skill in the hopes that my RL financial situation gets better.
Here is the breakdown:
1 Battleship every week, T2 fitted: 120-140 million ISK 1 Pilgrim every 2 weeks, T2 fitted: 200 million ISK
This equates to needing to farm 1.3 billion isk per month on average, to just PVP on.
Add in a 90 day GTC (400 million isk), I would need to farm 1.353 billion isk per month.
For a 90 day GTC, and funds to PVP with (this is a pvp game, right?), I would need to farm isk for approximately 1 month, for 2 more months of "play time".
Now that 60 days are almost the same cost as 90 days where, I would need to farm for 1 month, PVP for a month, etc.. to afford game + PVP.
No thanks, that is too much like work.
So.. Farewell (on July 24th).
Very poor decision CCP.
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Yonos
Game-Over The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.06.25 18:27:00 -
[890]
yes, please bring back the 30day and 90day gtc. Lots of good posts here for the reasons why.
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Fennore
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Posted - 2008.06.25 21:22:00 -
[891]
/signed
This is a very poor choice in direction for player retention.
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order.
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Posted - 2008.06.25 22:59:00 -
[892]
Bring back both 30 and 90 day...
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Colonel Rykef
Animus Exuro
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Posted - 2008.06.25 23:02:00 -
[893]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Hope everyone finds this answer informative.
That is actually ridiculous, and embarrassing. Congratulations CCP you have just Alienated a huge section of your playerbase with your greedy notions (all the tripe about premium, remember guys this is a active player base of at most 35k people at a time CCP are using a tiny amount of server space compared to majority of other major MMO's)
It simply boils down to this 1. CCP wants more money, and are prepared to make EvE the most expensive MMO on the market to achieve this, 2. CCP wants to be able to predict its profits well in advance so wants everyone to pay monthly via credit card (in spite of the credit cruch i would just like to add)
I want no further part in it and will be terminating my subscription
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VheroKai
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:16:00 -
[894]
Sorry Jade, but...
Originally by: Jade Constantine The answer is basically they (CCP) don't like the the various grades of GTC's because it over-complicates the admin and it does nothing good for CCP's profits.
Understandable, but "various" and "two" poorly connected to eachother. I can understand the removal of 50/100 days GTC, they aren't resembling any real world time periods, but 30/90 days GTC has clear meaning for people. It is a decision to be able play more or less. Personally, I don't mind paying more, but not THAT more. I can afford 30days for $20 and play 15 days. But I absolutely can't afford $40 for the same play time. Direct debit? They are not accepting my card. They do not have any other direct payment options. Only PayByCash, which is not direct, it is payment processing crap, that adding his own taxations over the CCP's prices, ending in like $25/30d subscription. Pay with ISK, you said? Ok, it is understandable answer, but... where I can get cards to buy? If everyone using direct debit or have cancelled accounts, thus ruining ETC sales? Yes, exaggeration, but it is how things looks from my side. Card/ISK trade would become more rare.
Quote: Ultimately they'd prefer people to be directly subscribing by credit cards (or alternative payment means)
They do not have "alternative payment means". Read above. If CCP would implement alternatives, THEN remove 30/90d ETC, it will be much less of a problem.
Quote: Eve is a premium product with a huge development effort,
Truth.
Quote: high class graphics
Lie.
Quote: and major design on new features and functions.
True for server, lie for client.
Quote: Stuff like Walking in Stations is a whole new graphic engine thats world class in the industry and fundamentally its our choice as to whether we want to pay for quality or not.
We (ok, *I*, personally) want to pay for quality, but we haven't got any sign of it to come in last 2 years (for me).
Quote: 60 days cards is what there'll be and we need to understand that CCP would much rather people directly subscribe by credit card
I'd rather NEVER subscribe to any service that can store my card data ans charge me in advance. It's basically like giving keys of my home to first person that I saw on the street.
Quote: or alternative payment method straight to their accounts
Show me any available method to pay directly to CCP's account - i'll think about it. Happily there are enough exchange services, that transferring electronic currency from and to mny payment systems.
Quote: more money gets to ccp development that way, and as gamers we have to decide whether we are happy paying a bit more of a premium product or not.
Show me the premium product and I'll pay for it. To now, I haven't saw anything you're speaking about. It was laggy as hell in the early 2006, it is still the same good old lags today.
Quote: Eve was never designed to be a discount MMO and is never going to be priced that way.
I said, I don't mind paying more. But not $25+ for 15 days. If they want direct payments - let they implement direct payments for 3-5 main payment systems.
P.S. Have you read the "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", especially the "Life, the Universe and Everything" part? Where they met the man who speak the absolute truth? Remember the tale about meaning? |
VheroKai
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:26:00 -
[895]
(Not to mention - we already lost our director/FC due to ETC change - he just can't pay that much for that little) |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.06.26 04:17:00 -
[896]
I'm going to have to "hibernate" my main for a while - I wasn't able to farm up the ISK to buy my GTC this month. Had 30 day codes been available for another month, I'd have been home and hosed. My 320M ISK this month goes to my alt, who doesn't have long skills to train. Hopefully she and my friends can pull their acts together and farm up the 320M-odd ISK for my main to come back before the long skill finishes training :)
I have no gripes with simplifying to 1 GTC type. I have no gripes with the rise in price (in US dollars). My only gripe is that I couldn't adapt my income to the new pricing structure with the short notice. I tried, but only came up with half the funds I needed.
I definitely want GTC to stay, and I definitely want ISK-for-GTC to stay. For me, the challenge in playing this game is to raise the ISK to pay for the play time.
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Enech Felbar
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Posted - 2008.06.26 08:55:00 -
[897]
Gutted, I want 90days back!!
/signed
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Anilusion
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Posted - 2008.06.26 10:50:00 -
[898]
/signed
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Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2008.06.27 00:00:00 -
[899]
Epic fail, CCP.
It's one thing to increase prices, but trying to hide it by claiming the removal of time code options is to conform to "industry standards" is pretty dirty.
I'm also concerned about what this means for subscription rates. Will players only be able to pay in 60-day increments there, as well? If not, what is the rationale behind giving some players a range of paid time and pricing options and taking it away from others?
If you need more money, raise prices across the board and be transparent about it.
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Kaya Divine
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Posted - 2008.06.27 10:31:00 -
[900]
Most of players wants ability to be in one system with 1000 others without fear of lag or DC`s.
If lag issues and DC`s was things of the past, less people would whine about this raising prices. "Ok, you solve problems, fixed bugs and exploits, did everything to make game more enjoyable, here you go I don`t mind price raise." <You would have much more this kind of answers, but sadly this isn't my imaginary world.
I consulted moralists to learn how to appear philosophers to find out what to think and novelists to see what I could get away with and in the end it all came down to one principle:win or die. |
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