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24/5/2008 Opening CSM formal meeting complete - Minutes to follow

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Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.25 00:32:00 - [1] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/05/2008 00:33:08 First meeting is done and dusted. It took us 2 hours or so to get some basic issues and structures resolved and set some refinement of the CSM process in motion for the coming weeks. Serenity Steel was voted in as Vice Chairman. Ankhesentapemkah was voted in as CSM Secretary. Deirdra Val was voted in as Vice Secretary. Ankhesentapemkah is going to be compiling the formal minutes and these will be passed to CCP to publicize in the coming days. I would actually like to release the raw chat log of the meeting to the public fairly soon too as well. Given we were running a little short of time didn't have time to raise this at the AOB phase of the agenda, but could I hear from the CSM reps on this issue please, do you mind if I make the meeting log fully public for open scrutiny of the electorate? (next meeting is going to be next weekend, I'll finalize the date/time by Wednesday afternoon at the latest.) Thanks to everyone who attended this one. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.25 01:35:00 - [2] Originally by: Jade Constantine I would actually like to release the raw chat log of the meeting to the public fairly soon too as well. This is somewhat double-edged ... On one side we are producing and publicising the "official minutes" of the meeting and, arguably, to have a second set of minutes (ie the log) would be pointless, and problematic where the intent was one thing yet the log appeared to show something slightly different. (This doesn't apply to this meeting, but I think that discussion on the general point needs to come first) On the other, there were a number of asides in-channel during the meeting which were not a "part* of the meeting (eg Xhagen's arrival) and whilst openness and clarity are good things I don't find it proven that everything needs be public in every way. Thirdly, I wonder what useful purpose it serves. There were a few frayed tempers at points in the meeting and some things clearly said in the heat of the moment. I would hate for people not present to read the full log and reach conclusions about the personalities in the meeting that might detract from the ability of the CSM as a whole to function properly because of that. Publicising the full log alongside the official minutes could undermine the position of some Council members in that respect, and I wouldn't like to see publication used to that end. For my own part, I stand by all that I said and have no issue with what I said being public. IZ My principles
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.25 01:50:00 - [3] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/05/2008 01:56:09 We could perhaps snip the material before the formal beginning of the meeting and after the formal closing of the meeting Inanna - thats just chatter in the main. But I must admit I'm personally a believer in complete transparency in these matters and I think the electorate do deserve to see how we conduct ourselves in the course of formal meetings. Who knows, perhaps knowing that we are open to full scrutiny might even help us all better focus on the task at hand. Its also possible that the electorate actually seeing us in the process of discussions in the CSM context will gain a better understanding of the task and issues and be more sympathetic to the challenges we all face. On principle though, would you be for or against (or abstain) on the issue of publicizing the raw meeting log Inanna? I'd like a quick show of hands on the issue please. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Avalira Pax Minor Expiscor Pario Addo	Posted - 2008.05.25 03:04:00 - [4] I hope you don't mind me budging in and giving a 3rd party point of view. I wouldn't mind reading or listening to a raw chat log (by raw do you mean text or audio?). But it could be long for most people so a tl;dr version should be published if you decide to make this public. As Jade said the formalities aren't really necessary for us and what most people would want to know is just what was discussed. Oh and congrats on Serenity, Ankhesentapemkah (holy cow you have a complex name) and Deirdra on their possitions! ------------- Selling the following: Probe BPC's ARK JF 4.5b
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.25 06:30:00 - [5] Aye, publish the raw logs, imo.
Xanja 2H Industries	Posted - 2008.05.25 12:48:00 - [6] raw logs would help the whole openess thing imo -----------------
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:58:00 - [7] Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 25/05/2008 16:58:10 Originally by: Avalira I wouldn't mind reading or listening to a raw chat log (by raw do you mean text or audio?) Quick FYI, but our meetings will always be via the written word (ie chat channel) rather than the spoken word. This is because (a) everyone attending can have a copy of the channel, so fewer (no!) disagreements about what was said by someone, and (b) if we used voice we'd each be having to try and understand everyone else's accents, which isn't always that easy! An extra advantage of not using the spoken voice is that the loudest person doesn't then cover up what others say where typing into a channel means that everyone's thoughts get through (with equal weight). IZ My principles
Xofii Hedion University	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:15:00 - [8] I support raw logs :) give em gimme gimme gimme //Xo
Ramblin Man The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.25 23:26:00 - [9] Everyone likes sunshine. Logs for the duration of the official meeting. At the very least for the council's own sake. Should behavior reflect poorly on an elected official, without obvious baiting, then there should be incentive for him or her to watch themselves next time around. If baiting via invisible PMs becomes a distraction to the integrity of the main channel -- then I would question whether the EVE public has the right person for the job. No reputation but what you make. Welcome to EVE. Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words.
Evita Achura Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.26 06:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Inanna Zuni Thirdly, I wonder what useful purpose it serves. The useful purpose that it serves is so that the CSM members will remember their place is as representatives of the player base, and hopefully will maintain a healthy level of respect for their constituents. More over it provides a base for consequence should they overstep their position, forget the message they were voted in for, or otherwise demonstrate that they are unfit for duty. Post the raw logs and accept the fact that you are now in the public eye and will be scrutinized as such.
Pizi	Posted - 2008.05.26 07:13:00 - [11] cant the meetings be public ? ie a moderated chan with +v to only the CSM ? _______________________________________________ Mining Crystal II BPC Pricelist EVEpedia[Deutsch]
Sariyah HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.26 09:45:00 - [12] While I think that 1) no, meetings definitely shouldn't be public at least not all maybe some if you want some publicity on certain topics once in a while and 2) publishing the log is not really relevant to the masses anyway (wonder what would happen if we'd hear all the internal meetings of our politicians) obviously there'll always be trolls that demand everything (underwear brand etc) to make sure you guys don't "cheat" (or something)... :) Personally? Yeah, I would be curious to see how everyone behaves (especially Goons )
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.26 10:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Pizi cant the meetings be public ? ie a moderated chan with +v to only the CSM ? No. There might be discussed things which are under NDA. As such, we could break the NDA by doing that, as I see it.
Hrian d'Fat Hrian Trading	Posted - 2008.05.26 11:15:00 - [14] Edited by: Hrian d''Fat on 26/05/2008 11:17:36 Raw chatlogs MUST be published after being reviewd by CCP and the NDA breaking parts ****-ed out of it. This early in the process however, i doubt there was anything violating the NDA you guys didnt even sign, so out with the logs.. let us see you actually do something for the free trip to iceland and not just sit there telling tales. Face it, it was the player's vote to get the guys into the CSM. The least the CSM owes these players is to keep things as open as possible and not look for excuses to not publish what they do.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.26 11:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Hrian d'Fat Edited by: Hrian d''Fat on 26/05/2008 11:17:36 Raw chatlogs MUST be published after being reviewd by CCP and the NDA breaking parts ****-ed out of it. This early in the process however, i doubt there was anything violating the NDA you guys didnt even sign, so out with the logs.. let us see you actually do something for the free trip to iceland and not just sit there telling tales. Face it, it was the player's vote to get the guys into the CSM. The least the CSM owes these players is to keep things as open as possible and not look for excuses to not publish what they do. I agree with this.
Claire Lacombe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.26 13:13:00 - [16] Edited by: Claire Lacombe on 26/05/2008 13:13:01 What happened to the minutes?
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.26 14:17:00 - [17] Originally by: Claire Lacombe What happened to the minutes? I've just signed them, we're in a 24 hour consultancy period at the moment for other CSM reps to raise objections before Ank sends them to CCP so they can be hosted on the website. But I am still hoping that the other CSM reps (aside from LaVista) will give me permission to make the raw meeting chat log public as well. I honestly believe it will be helpful. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Claire Lacombe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.26 14:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Claire Lacombe What happened to the minutes? I've just signed them, we're in a 24 hour consultancy period at the moment for other CSM reps to raise objections before Ank sends them to CCP so they can be hosted on the website. But I am still hoping that the other CSM reps (aside from LaVista) will give me permission to make the raw meeting chat log public as well. I honestly believe it will be helpful. No arguments from this peanut gallery. Transparency is never a bad thing in my opinion. Hiding crap doesn't make it stink any less.
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.05.26 18:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Jade Constantine We could perhaps snip the material before the formal beginning of the meeting and after the formal closing of the meeting Inanna - thats just chatter in the main. I agree entirely that the meeting logs (between Open and Close) should be released, as it does provide more detail than the minutes alone and it was recommended by CCP in the PDF. Additionally, it enables the CSM to list key points and actions, rather than a detailed transcript of events, with the benefits of: - Quicker for players to know what happened and what's due - Faster for players to read - More CSM time to spend on issues rather than Admin - More CSM transparency Players and in particular bloggers/analysts can read through all the conversation if they so choose. ≡v≡ Strategic Maps now in Eve-Online Store - Includes Black Rise & Empyrean Age
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 00:44:00 - [20] Still waiting to here from: Ankhesentapemkah Bane Glorious Darius Johnson Dierdra Val Hardin Inanna Zuni On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.27 11:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Malar on 27/05/2008 11:10:30 Originally by: Jade Constantine Still waiting to here from: Ankhesentapemkah Bane Glorious Darius Johnson Dierdra Val Hardin Inanna Zuni On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend. Could you please explain to me, why this is a question? I get the feeling, that things are a bit more complicated than they should be. Chatlogs should be public for everyone to read. Unless you can tell me a very good reason on why this isnt a good idea, i dont see an isse you need to 'decide' on here. --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only
Wednesday Sheffield GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 12:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Malar Could you please explain to me, why this is a question? I get the feeling, that things are a bit more complicated than they should be. Chatlogs should be public for everyone to read. Unless you can tell me a very good reason on why this isnt a good idea, i dont see an isse you need to 'decide' on here. People could have expressed controversial or unpopular opinions that needed to be expressed. If this were the real world you'd just do it in a back room but since this is some doofy Internet thing the CSM doesn't meet as often so it is best to just get permission before releasing logs.
PartyPopper GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 12:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Jade Constantine Still waiting to here from: Ankhesentapemkah Bane Glorious Darius Johnson Dierdra Val Hardin Inanna Zuni On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend. Have you asked them via email/ingame or are you just hoping they read all these threads?
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 12:30:00 - [24] We demand audio recordings to hear for ourselves how drunk Darius was. -----------
Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Wednesday Sheffield People could have expressed controversial or unpopular opinions that needed to be expressed. If this were the real world you'd just do it in a back room but since this is some doofy Internet thing the CSM doesn't meet as often so it is best to just get permission before releasing logs. Controversial? Unpopular? I doubt theres anything the CSM candidates could say they didnt say during the elections as well.. if theres something that would cause a public uproar then it is them they have to deal with that. As for the CSM's meeting frequency.. i really dont know how often they plan on meeting, but they sure as hell must be aware of the fact, that in just 1-2 weeks they are required to present the list of issues to CCP and we have yet to hear from them on the issues already raised. People in certain positions (politicians, artists, etc) are more exposed to the outside world simply because they are people of interest. Noone cares what you eat for breakfast, but were you famous enough, people would even analyse your sht to figure out what you had. Being a member of the CSM is kind of similar. Those 9 people accepted a position of responsibility and while we do not expect to know what they do with their life 24/7, we sure are interested in how the CSM meetings go. Just an example.. the parliament sessions of the hungarian goverment i can follow online when i want to see what the politicians are doing for their money. Sure i do not get to watch every site meeting in every room as its simply not feasible technically, but in the CSM's case theres only one room to check and thats the CSM meeting room. So once again i ask for those logs. To keep the CSM open and clean, we must be kept informed about its happenings all the way down to the last emote. --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only*
Hrian d'Fat Hrian Trading	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Jade Constantine Still waiting to here from: Ankhesentapemkah Bane Glorious Darius Johnson Dierdra Val Hardin Inanna Zuni On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend. Any update on the situation? I suggest you guys make a permanent decision instead of asking around after every session.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Malar Could you please explain to me, why this is a question? I get the feeling, that things are a bit more complicated than they should be. Certainly, we ran out of time in the first meeting before I had a chance to ask everyone if they had an objection to hosting the raw chatlog somewhere. I'm just being very careful to get people's permission before doing this. If we don't get this issue resolved this week I'll be raising it as a vote at the next meeting and hopefully making it explicit that we will be posting chatlogs of each meeting once the meetings are concluded. These chatlogs would be everything between the Chair declaring meeting open, and the Chair declaring the meeting closed. The chatlogs would be essentially raw but rl details such as email/telephone numbers etc etc would be blocked out. Quote: Chatlogs should be public for everyone to read. Unless you can tell me a very good reason on why this isnt a good idea, i dont see an isse you need to 'decide' on here. Its politeness really. I don't want anybody complaining after the event that I've made these things public against their permission and causing a scandal. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:23:00 - [28] Originally by: Hrian d'Fat Any update on the situation? I suggest you guys make a permanent decision instead of asking around after every session. Yep, if this doesn't get resolved this week I will be bringing up just such a vote at the beginning of the next meeting. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:24:00 - [29] Originally by: Scatim Helicon We demand audio recordings to hear for ourselves how drunk Darius was. We discussed audio meetings but it was veto'ed on the grounds that we had to use a medium where we can log the chat. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:40:00 - [30] Yes. --- Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

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