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24/5/2008 Opening CSM formal meeting complete - Minutes to follow

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Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.25 00:32:00 - [1] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/05/2008 00:33:08 First meeting is done and dusted. It took us 2 hours or so to get some basic issues and structures resolved and set some refinement of the CSM process in motion for the coming weeks. Serenity Steel was voted in as Vice Chairman. Ankhesentapemkah was voted in as CSM Secretary. Deirdra Val was voted in as Vice Secretary. Ankhesentapemkah is going to be compiling the formal minutes and these will be passed to CCP to publicize in the coming days. I would actually like to release the raw chat log of the meeting to the public fairly soon too as well. Given we were running a little short of time didn't have time to raise this at the AOB phase of the agenda, but could I hear from the CSM reps on this issue please, do you mind if I make the meeting log fully public for open scrutiny of the electorate? (next meeting is going to be next weekend, I'll finalize the date/time by Wednesday afternoon at the latest.) Thanks to everyone who attended this one. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.25 01:35:00 - [2] Originally by: Jade Constantine I would actually like to release the raw chat log of the meeting to the public fairly soon too as well. This is somewhat double-edged ... On one side we are producing and publicising the "official minutes" of the meeting and, arguably, to have a second set of minutes (ie the log) would be pointless, and problematic where the intent was one thing yet the log appeared to show something slightly different. (This doesn't apply to this meeting, but I think that discussion on the general point needs to come first) On the other, there were a number of asides in-channel during the meeting which were not a "part* of the meeting (eg Xhagen's arrival) and whilst openness and clarity are good things I don't find it proven that everything needs be public in every way. Thirdly, I wonder what useful purpose it serves. There were a few frayed tempers at points in the meeting and some things clearly said in the heat of the moment. I would hate for people not present to read the full log and reach conclusions about the personalities in the meeting that might detract from the ability of the CSM as a whole to function properly because of that. Publicising the full log alongside the official minutes could undermine the position of some Council members in that respect, and I wouldn't like to see publication used to that end. For my own part, I stand by all that I said and have no issue with what I said being public. IZ My principles
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.25 01:50:00 - [3] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/05/2008 01:56:09 We could perhaps snip the material before the formal beginning of the meeting and after the formal closing of the meeting Inanna - thats just chatter in the main. But I must admit I'm personally a believer in complete transparency in these matters and I think the electorate do deserve to see how we conduct ourselves in the course of formal meetings. Who knows, perhaps knowing that we are open to full scrutiny might even help us all better focus on the task at hand. Its also possible that the electorate actually seeing us in the process of discussions in the CSM context will gain a better understanding of the task and issues and be more sympathetic to the challenges we all face. On principle though, would you be for or against (or abstain) on the issue of publicizing the raw meeting log Inanna? I'd like a quick show of hands on the issue please. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Avalira Pax Minor Expiscor Pario Addo	Posted - 2008.05.25 03:04:00 - [4] I hope you don't mind me budging in and giving a 3rd party point of view. I wouldn't mind reading or listening to a raw chat log (by raw do you mean text or audio?). But it could be long for most people so a tl;dr version should be published if you decide to make this public. As Jade said the formalities aren't really necessary for us and what most people would want to know is just what was discussed. Oh and congrats on Serenity, Ankhesentapemkah (holy cow you have a complex name) and Deirdra on their possitions! ------------- Selling the following: Probe BPC's ARK JF 4.5b
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.25 06:30:00 - [5] Aye, publish the raw logs, imo.
Xanja 2H Industries	Posted - 2008.05.25 12:48:00 - [6] raw logs would help the whole openess thing imo -----------------
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:58:00 - [7] Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 25/05/2008 16:58:10 Originally by: Avalira I wouldn't mind reading or listening to a raw chat log (by raw do you mean text or audio?) Quick FYI, but our meetings will always be via the written word (ie chat channel) rather than the spoken word. This is because (a) everyone attending can have a copy of the channel, so fewer (no!) disagreements about what was said by someone, and (b) if we used voice we'd each be having to try and understand everyone else's accents, which isn't always that easy! An extra advantage of not using the spoken voice is that the loudest person doesn't then cover up what others say where typing into a channel means that everyone's thoughts get through (with equal weight). IZ My principles
Xofii Hedion University	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:15:00 - [8] I support raw logs :) give em gimme gimme gimme //Xo
Ramblin Man The Scope	Posted - 2008.05.25 23:26:00 - [9] Everyone likes sunshine. Logs for the duration of the official meeting. At the very least for the council's own sake. Should behavior reflect poorly on an elected official, without obvious baiting, then there should be incentive for him or her to watch themselves next time around. If baiting via invisible PMs becomes a distraction to the integrity of the main channel -- then I would question whether the EVE public has the right person for the job. No reputation but what you make. Welcome to EVE. Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words.
Evita Achura Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.26 06:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Inanna Zuni Thirdly, I wonder what useful purpose it serves. The useful purpose that it serves is so that the CSM members will remember their place is as representatives of the player base, and hopefully will maintain a healthy level of respect for their constituents. More over it provides a base for consequence should they overstep their position, forget the message they were voted in for, or otherwise demonstrate that they are unfit for duty. Post the raw logs and accept the fact that you are now in the public eye and will be scrutinized as such.
Pizi	Posted - 2008.05.26 07:13:00 - [11] cant the meetings be public ? ie a moderated chan with +v to only the CSM ? _______________________________________________ Mining Crystal II BPC Pricelist EVEpedia[Deutsch]
Sariyah HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.26 09:45:00 - [12] While I think that 1) no, meetings definitely shouldn't be public at least not all maybe some if you want some publicity on certain topics once in a while and 2) publishing the log is not really relevant to the masses anyway (wonder what would happen if we'd hear all the internal meetings of our politicians) obviously there'll always be trolls that demand everything (underwear brand etc) to make sure you guys don't "cheat" (or something)... :) Personally? Yeah, I would be curious to see how everyone behaves (especially Goons )
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.26 10:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Pizi cant the meetings be public ? ie a moderated chan with +v to only the CSM ? No. There might be discussed things which are under NDA. As such, we could break the NDA by doing that, as I see it.
Hrian d'Fat Hrian Trading	Posted - 2008.05.26 11:15:00 - [14] Edited by: Hrian d''Fat on 26/05/2008 11:17:36 Raw chatlogs MUST be published after being reviewd by CCP and the NDA breaking parts ****-ed out of it. This early in the process however, i doubt there was anything violating the NDA you guys didnt even sign, so out with the logs.. let us see you actually do something for the free trip to iceland and not just sit there telling tales. Face it, it was the player's vote to get the guys into the CSM. The least the CSM owes these players is to keep things as open as possible and not look for excuses to not publish what they do.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.26 11:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Hrian d'Fat Edited by: Hrian d''Fat on 26/05/2008 11:17:36 Raw chatlogs MUST be published after being reviewd by CCP and the NDA breaking parts ****-ed out of it. This early in the process however, i doubt there was anything violating the NDA you guys didnt even sign, so out with the logs.. let us see you actually do something for the free trip to iceland and not just sit there telling tales. Face it, it was the player's vote to get the guys into the CSM. The least the CSM owes these players is to keep things as open as possible and not look for excuses to not publish what they do. I agree with this.
Claire Lacombe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.26 13:13:00 - [16] Edited by: Claire Lacombe on 26/05/2008 13:13:01 What happened to the minutes?
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.26 14:17:00 - [17] Originally by: Claire Lacombe What happened to the minutes? I've just signed them, we're in a 24 hour consultancy period at the moment for other CSM reps to raise objections before Ank sends them to CCP so they can be hosted on the website. But I am still hoping that the other CSM reps (aside from LaVista) will give me permission to make the raw meeting chat log public as well. I honestly believe it will be helpful. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Claire Lacombe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.26 14:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Claire Lacombe What happened to the minutes? I've just signed them, we're in a 24 hour consultancy period at the moment for other CSM reps to raise objections before Ank sends them to CCP so they can be hosted on the website. But I am still hoping that the other CSM reps (aside from LaVista) will give me permission to make the raw meeting chat log public as well. I honestly believe it will be helpful. No arguments from this peanut gallery. Transparency is never a bad thing in my opinion. Hiding crap doesn't make it stink any less.
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.05.26 18:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Jade Constantine We could perhaps snip the material before the formal beginning of the meeting and after the formal closing of the meeting Inanna - thats just chatter in the main. I agree entirely that the meeting logs (between Open and Close) should be released, as it does provide more detail than the minutes alone and it was recommended by CCP in the PDF. Additionally, it enables the CSM to list key points and actions, rather than a detailed transcript of events, with the benefits of: - Quicker for players to know what happened and what's due - Faster for players to read - More CSM time to spend on issues rather than Admin - More CSM transparency Players and in particular bloggers/analysts can read through all the conversation if they so choose. ≡v≡ Strategic Maps now in Eve-Online Store - Includes Black Rise & Empyrean Age
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 00:44:00 - [20] Still waiting to here from: Ankhesentapemkah Bane Glorious Darius Johnson Dierdra Val Hardin Inanna Zuni On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.27 11:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Malar on 27/05/2008 11:10:30 Originally by: Jade Constantine Still waiting to here from: Ankhesentapemkah Bane Glorious Darius Johnson Dierdra Val Hardin Inanna Zuni On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend. Could you please explain to me, why this is a question? I get the feeling, that things are a bit more complicated than they should be. Chatlogs should be public for everyone to read. Unless you can tell me a very good reason on why this isnt a good idea, i dont see an isse you need to 'decide' on here. --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only
Wednesday Sheffield GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 12:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Malar Could you please explain to me, why this is a question? I get the feeling, that things are a bit more complicated than they should be. Chatlogs should be public for everyone to read. Unless you can tell me a very good reason on why this isnt a good idea, i dont see an isse you need to 'decide' on here. People could have expressed controversial or unpopular opinions that needed to be expressed. If this were the real world you'd just do it in a back room but since this is some doofy Internet thing the CSM doesn't meet as often so it is best to just get permission before releasing logs.
PartyPopper GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 12:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Jade Constantine Still waiting to here from: Ankhesentapemkah Bane Glorious Darius Johnson Dierdra Val Hardin Inanna Zuni On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend. Have you asked them via email/ingame or are you just hoping they read all these threads?
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 12:30:00 - [24] We demand audio recordings to hear for ourselves how drunk Darius was. -----------
Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Wednesday Sheffield People could have expressed controversial or unpopular opinions that needed to be expressed. If this were the real world you'd just do it in a back room but since this is some doofy Internet thing the CSM doesn't meet as often so it is best to just get permission before releasing logs. Controversial? Unpopular? I doubt theres anything the CSM candidates could say they didnt say during the elections as well.. if theres something that would cause a public uproar then it is them they have to deal with that. As for the CSM's meeting frequency.. i really dont know how often they plan on meeting, but they sure as hell must be aware of the fact, that in just 1-2 weeks they are required to present the list of issues to CCP and we have yet to hear from them on the issues already raised. People in certain positions (politicians, artists, etc) are more exposed to the outside world simply because they are people of interest. Noone cares what you eat for breakfast, but were you famous enough, people would even analyse your sht to figure out what you had. Being a member of the CSM is kind of similar. Those 9 people accepted a position of responsibility and while we do not expect to know what they do with their life 24/7, we sure are interested in how the CSM meetings go. Just an example.. the parliament sessions of the hungarian goverment i can follow online when i want to see what the politicians are doing for their money. Sure i do not get to watch every site meeting in every room as its simply not feasible technically, but in the CSM's case theres only one room to check and thats the CSM meeting room. So once again i ask for those logs. To keep the CSM open and clean, we must be kept informed about its happenings all the way down to the last emote. --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only*
Hrian d'Fat Hrian Trading	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Jade Constantine Still waiting to here from: Ankhesentapemkah Bane Glorious Darius Johnson Dierdra Val Hardin Inanna Zuni On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend. Any update on the situation? I suggest you guys make a permanent decision instead of asking around after every session.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Malar Could you please explain to me, why this is a question? I get the feeling, that things are a bit more complicated than they should be. Certainly, we ran out of time in the first meeting before I had a chance to ask everyone if they had an objection to hosting the raw chatlog somewhere. I'm just being very careful to get people's permission before doing this. If we don't get this issue resolved this week I'll be raising it as a vote at the next meeting and hopefully making it explicit that we will be posting chatlogs of each meeting once the meetings are concluded. These chatlogs would be everything between the Chair declaring meeting open, and the Chair declaring the meeting closed. The chatlogs would be essentially raw but rl details such as email/telephone numbers etc etc would be blocked out. Quote: Chatlogs should be public for everyone to read. Unless you can tell me a very good reason on why this isnt a good idea, i dont see an isse you need to 'decide' on here. Its politeness really. I don't want anybody complaining after the event that I've made these things public against their permission and causing a scandal. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:23:00 - [28] Originally by: Hrian d'Fat Any update on the situation? I suggest you guys make a permanent decision instead of asking around after every session. Yep, if this doesn't get resolved this week I will be bringing up just such a vote at the beginning of the next meeting. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:24:00 - [29] Originally by: Scatim Helicon We demand audio recordings to hear for ourselves how drunk Darius was. We discussed audio meetings but it was veto'ed on the grounds that we had to use a medium where we can log the chat. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.27 14:40:00 - [30] Yes. --- Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 15:26:00 - [31] Hey, sorry I was away all weekend from immediately after the meeting onward. I don't personally have any problem with the release of complete meeting logs and assumed that was going to be done.
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.27 16:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Jade Constantine Still waiting to here from: ... Inanna Zuni On the issue of a specific yes or no decision on whether to make the meeting chatlogs public for this last weekend. I point the Chair to the second post in this thread wherein: "For my own part, I stand by all that I said and have no issue with what I said being public." I do not see it as my job to make a decision on behalf of another Council member as to what the chatlog may include from them, indeed it would be way exceeding my authority (little as it is!) IZ My principles
Abriana Overlord Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.27 17:52:00 - [33] I appreciate there is a process to be run here, and process is important but bloody hell it should not take this long to get meeting minutes out. Just release the raw log or are you censoring before this thing gets going. All I see so far is failure to communicate anything of value from meeting that took place days ago If it continues in this vane i fail to see how this body will represent some of the player base effectively. I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being
Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.27 18:03:00 - [34] Edited by: Malar on 27/05/2008 18:04:00 Originally by: Abriana Overlord I appreciate there is a process to be run here, and process is important but bloody hell it should not take this long to get meeting minutes out. Just release the raw log or are you censoring before this thing gets going. All I see so far is failure to communicate anything of value from meeting that took place days ago If it continues in this vane i fail to see how this body will represent some of the player base effectively. I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The guy above has a point. edit: (girl even - although based on pure statistics, i was prolly right the first time:P Still, the avatar is a female one.) --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 18:15:00 - [35] Originally by: Abriana Overlord I appreciate there is a process to be run here, and process is important but bloody hell it should not take this long to get meeting minutes out. Just release the raw log or are you censoring before this thing gets going. All I see so far is failure to communicate anything of value from meeting that took place days ago If it continues in this vane i fail to see how this body will represent some of the player base effectively. I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being We got the meeting minutes sent off to CCP yesterday, they will be responsible for publishing those. All the hold up with the with chat log is the problem stemming from me not getting people's explicit support to publish at the first meeting - this will get addressed, I'll push a formal vote on the subject at the next meeting and if passed the raw text of future meetings will be available very soon after meetings to come. As to the principle of transparency. I want this chatlog public. If we can get Hardin, Bane and Dierdra to say yes on this thread tonight I'll post the thing as soon as possible. Fair enough? CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Windjammer	Posted - 2008.05.27 18:25:00 - [36] I'm disturbed this was ever a question. As members of CSM you have given up the right to anonymity when engaged in CSM business. Obviously the NDA portions of your discussions can not be publicized and everyone knows you have to edit those out. However, the rest of CSM business, including disagreements, arguments and misbehaviour are the business of the people who elected you. Your constituency is the entirety of the EVE community and you are responsible to them within that context. Closed door sessions have always been the domain of those who don't want to be held accountable for their actions. i.e. in the next elections. Regards, Windjammer
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.27 18:29:00 - [37] Originally by: Windjammer I'm disturbed this was ever a question. As members of CSM you have given up the right to anonymity when engaged in CSM business. Obviously the NDA portions of your discussions can not be publicized and everyone knows you have to edit those out. However, the rest of CSM business, including disagreements, arguments and misbehaviour are the business of the people who elected you. Your constituency is the entirety of the EVE community and you are responsible to them within that context. Closed door sessions have always been the domain of those who don't want to be held accountable for their actions. i.e. in the next elections. Regards, Windjammer I agree completely, but since it didn't get explicitly raised at the first meeting I'm just being polite and scrupulous here in allowing each CSM rep to have their say on the issue. Its very important that the Chair doesn't ride roughshod over the opinions (and votes) of the council members. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Dierdra Vaal Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.27 18:32:00 - [38] I do not object to the chatlog being made public Recruitment Director :: EVE University CSM Representative
Abriana Overlord Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.27 18:35:00 - [39] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Abriana Overlord I appreciate there is a process to be run here, and process is important but bloody hell it should not take this long to get meeting minutes out. Just release the raw log or are you censoring before this thing gets going. All I see so far is failure to communicate anything of value from meeting that took place days ago If it continues in this vane i fail to see how this body will represent some of the player base effectively. I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being We got the meeting minutes sent off to CCP yesterday, they will be responsible for publishing those. All the hold up with the with chat log is the problem stemming from me not getting people's explicit support to publish at the first meeting - this will get addressed, I'll push a formal vote on the subject at the next meeting and if passed the raw text of future meetings will be available very soon after meetings to come. As to the principle of transparency. I want this chatlog public. If we can get Hardin, Bane and Dierdra to say yes on this thread tonight I'll post the thing as soon as possible. Fair enough? Firstly thanks for taking the time to repond constructively As a stakeholder I have an expectation as do many others within the playerbase that minutes such as these are distributed in a timely fashion. I appreciate it is early days as such it will take some time to get things running smoothly. Whether it is ccp or the csm directly who publish the minutes is not of interest to myself or many in the playerbase, what is important is seeing the content. This then aids to reassure us that the CSM is representing us as our expectation have been set and that the people we elected are living up to their promises As stated previously, I continue to keep an open mind.... for the time being
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Abriana Overlord I appreciate it is early days as such it will take some time to get things running smoothly. Yep, that's all it is. 1st meeting of 1st CSM. Minutes are off to CCP. Logs are just waiting on feedback from members. Won't be an issue, Jade just want to get consensus. ≡v≡ Strategic Maps now in Eve-Online Store - Includes Black Rise & Empyrean Age
Abriana Overlord Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.27 21:11:00 - [41] Originally by: Serenity Steele Edited by: Serenity Steele on 27/05/2008 20:22:02 Originally by: Abriana Overlord I appreciate it is early days as such it will take some time to get things running smoothly. Yep, that's all it is. 1st meeting of 1st CSM. Minutes are off to CCP. Logs are just waiting on confirmation from members before release. Won't be an issue, Jade just want to get consensus. Given this is the first meetng however, I would expect a degree of expediency as would many others in the player base. Is it possible to reset our expectations as to when we will have visibilty. As soon as possible is not what people are looking for, simply x date they will be available will suffice. Regards
Sunwillow Auryn	Posted - 2008.05.27 22:17:00 - [42] I think there have been two good points mentioned in this thread regarding a bit of delay between the meeting and issuing the full chat log: 1) possible NDA reasons (unlikely this early, but a possibility for later for those who are sure to scream cover-up) 2) RL details such as email and phone contacts (it's all very well being in the public eye, but you don't see Madonna publicising her personal phone number to all and sundry) To which I would like to add: 3) Some things I don't want to hear about - anything unrelated to the chat at hand. If a council member is afk to use the bathroom or get a drink, I honestly don't care provided they are not afk for 1 hour 59 mins of a 2 hour meeting ;)
Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.28 09:57:00 - [43] Another day and still nothing. A few more days, and you will owe us two logs, not just one. I think it would be time to hurry up a little. --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only
AltBier Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.05.28 10:34:00 - [44] I don't see how Jade could hurry things up. The people who need to hurry up are those who have not said yes or no to the question of releasing the log.
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.05.28 11:07:00 - [45] Since 7/9 CSM members agreed, I've put them up on the eve-csm.com site under the CSM Meeting Logs section. ≡v≡ Strategic Maps now in Eve-Online Store - Includes Black Rise & Empyrean Age
Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.28 12:35:00 - [46] Edited by: Waterfowl Democracy on 28/05/2008 12:35:20 A 2 hour meeting in which 3 positions were decided (only one was constested) and one issue was discussed in any depth. Truely you failed at chairing the meeting Jade. I would suggest learning some techniques for effective chair(sexslavewo)manship before the next meeting. Also, I do not appreciate the multiple times you attempted to close down discussion about valid topics. Clearly your personal opinions are clouding your judgment.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.28 12:52:00 - [47] Nice work CSM - things are off to a good start. Looking forward to that template. These are the sorts of things we really need taken care of so we can get down to the business of bringing concerns to CCP.
Sworn Absent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.28 12:58:00 - [48] Originally by: Kelsin Nice work CSM - things are off to a good start. Looking forward to that template. These are the sorts of things we really need taken care of so we can get down to the business of bringing concerns to CCP. Your sarcasm is not appreciated in the CSM forums.
AltBier Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:35:00 - [49] Edited by: AltBier on 28/05/2008 15:41:21 Originally by: Serenity Steele Since 7/9 CSM members agreed, I've put them up on the eve-csm.com site under the CSM Meeting Logs section. Thanks ... but why an RTF file? Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy A 2 hour meeting in which 3 positions were decided (only one was constested) and one issue was discussed in any depth. Truely you failed at chairing the meeting Jade. U R LIKE TOTALLLY FUNNY DUDE
Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:54:00 - [50] Reading through the logs but i can't say im too happy bout the things in it. Okay, this was your first meeting, but i sure hope you all know you have to step up the pace a lot compared to that one. As for the goon guy's accusation against jade. Maybe you should ask Darius to step back from the council, and it might become a lot more productive that instant. I sure hope he was just having a bad day tho. Looking forward to the next one. --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:58:00 - [51] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/05/2008 15:59:44 Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/05/2008 15:58:53 Originally by: Malar Reading through the logs but i can't say im too happy bout the things in it. Okay, this was your first meeting, but i sure hope you all know you have to step up the pace a lot compared to that one. Yep, I think we all know that one was way too slow with too much time wasted on irrelevancies and petty detail already made clear in the founding documents. I hope that having pre-published agenda items and having thrashed out the moderation role for Chair and V Chair in the previous meeting will help the next one be a lot more productive and efficient. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:13:00 - [52] Edited by: Serenity Steele on 28/05/2008 16:13:34 Originally by: AltBier Edited by: AltBier on 28/05/2008 15:41:21 Originally by: Serenity Steele Since 7/9 CSM members agreed, I've put them up on the eve-csm.com site under the CSM Meeting Logs section. Thanks ... but why an RTF file? Speed and ability to make in readable format (column space using tab markers). If I can work out an efficient way to make it into HTML and readable, I'll do that :) ≡v≡ Strategic Maps now in Eve-Online Store - Includes Black Rise & Empyrean Age
AltBier Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:21:00 - [53] What's wrong with the original chat log text file?
Semkhet Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.28 18:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/05/2008 15:59:44 Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/05/2008 15:58:53 Originally by: Malar Reading through the logs but i can't say im too happy bout the things in it. Okay, this was your first meeting, but i sure hope you all know you have to step up the pace a lot compared to that one. Yep, I think we all know that one was way too slow with too much time wasted on irrelevancies and petty detail already made clear in the founding documents. I hope that having pre-published agenda items and having thrashed out the moderation role for Chair and V Chair in the previous meeting will help the next one be a lot more productive and efficient. Given the circumstances, the format, and the interferences, you did well.
Snitch	Posted - 2008.05.28 23:00:00 - [55] I can't stand to read these threads in their full ugly glory but just in case nobody else has pointed this out I'll say this little bit. While full disclosure sounds well and good (Sunshine laws in the states) and it usually is I can think of one obvious reason why there needs to be a way for CSM's to not have their full chat logs released. If they are going to do their job and put the good of the game first, there will be times when they need to take a stand on an issue that will run counter to members of the community but more importantly that might upset members of their corp/alliance IG. I think that if we want there to be any chance of GS reps or Jade not just representing the interests of GS and Jade's: "we're going to grief space holding alliances by destroying their outposts from empire!" corps that they need to be able to take that stand without everyone knowing they did so. Long winded way to make that point, posting in a hurry from work, sorry. tl;dr: You will reduce the ability of the CSM to make choices that are not influenced by thier IG Corp/Alliance mates feelings if they are subject to 100% transperancy.
Athre The HIgher Standard	Posted - 2008.05.29 02:01:00 - [56] That was interesting. It is unfortunate that 2 Representatives decided they would not hold to traditional meeting methods and practices. Maybe they should not have run.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.29 02:16:00 - [57] Originally by: Athre That was interesting. It is unfortunate that 2 Representatives decided they would not hold to traditional meeting methods and practices. Maybe they should not have run. You were there? I don't see any minutes/chatlogs posted yet. ------------------ Fix the forums!
agent apple Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.29 02:59:00 - [58] If your already conducting yourselves in a manner your ashamed for the public to see then GTFO?
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.29 03:04:00 - [59] Originally by: agent apple If your already conducting yourselves in a manner your ashamed for the public to see then GTFO? Nobody has objected thus far. They're only waiting on, I believe, Hardin to chime in and say that he's okay with it. It's just a consensus check that hasn't cleared yet. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Windjammer	Posted - 2008.05.29 07:05:00 - [60] Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Edited by: Waterfowl Democracy on 28/05/2008 12:35:20 A 2 hour meeting in which 3 positions were decided (only one was constested) and one issue was discussed in any depth. Truely you failed at chairing the meeting Jade. I would suggest learning some techniques for effective chair(sexslavewo)manship before the next meeting. Also, I do not appreciate the multiple times you attempted to close down discussion about valid topics. Clearly your personal opinions are clouding your judgment. I see goonswarm is wasting no time in dispensing false allegations while at the same time being responsible for much of the problems and wasted time during the CSM meeting. Well......why not? It's a tried and true method for them. Clearly goonswarm does not look forward to anything which might give CCP more information about the player's wishes and concerns. Apparently they prefer to file petitions and war on the forums in mass to provide a false picture to CCP. Any further bs of the Darius nature should be dealt with by a summary dismisal and installation of an alternate. It is unacceptable for CSM meetings to be disrupted at the whim of goonswarm. Windjammer
Windjammer	Posted - 2008.05.29 07:31:00 - [61] For those of you who'd like to see the chat log go to http://www.eve-csm.com/#csmmeetings and click on the link under CSM Meetings titled Chatlog. Regards, Windjammer
AltBier Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.05.29 08:13:00 - [62] Edited by: AltBier on 29/05/2008 08:16:18 Originally by: Serenity Steele If I can work out an efficient way to make it into HTML and readable, I'll do that :) Forgot to say, I do have a program which will make it into HTML so it looks the same as it would in notepad. However, most browsers will simply show a text file in the same way as notepad would anyway. Many RFCs are published this way.
Drykor Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.29 11:57:00 - [63] I hope next time maybe Darius can be a little more mature and less obstructionistic and the meeting could actually go somewhere. I truely don't believe this was his intention from the start but bitterness and prejudice can go a long way in ruining the effectiveness of these meetings. I realize I may be biased but I tried to read the log with an open mind and I was utterly disgusted by the time I got to the end.
Athre The HIgher Standard	Posted - 2008.05.29 13:58:00 - [64] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Athre That was interesting. It is unfortunate that 2 Representatives decided they would not hold to traditional meeting methods and practices. Maybe they should not have run. You were there? I don't see any minutes/chatlogs posted yet. look up Originally by: Serenity Steele Since 7/9 CSM members agreed, I've put them up on the eve-csm.com site under the CSM Meeting Logs section.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.29 18:59:00 - [65] Originally by: Drykor I hope next time maybe Darius can be a little more mature and less obstructionistic and the meeting could actually go somewhere. I truely don't believe this was his intention from the start but bitterness and prejudice can go a long way in ruining the effectiveness of these meetings. I realize I may be biased but I tried to read the log with an open mind and I was utterly disgusted by the time I got to the end. Public meeting. Let me force a vote on an irrelevant and previously unmentioned topic then tell you to shut up when you voice opposition. I look forward to your "mature" response. In the meantime I'm going to continue to voice my opinion, whether you like it or not, regarding attempts to work outside the system in any way. The initial "discussion" also ocurred over 1.5 hours into the meeting. FYI. The point of the council is for people to discuss and explain things. Not to say I HAVE AN IDEA LET ME HAVE THIS RIGHT THAT MEANS NOTHING AND VOTE NOW. VOTES. SOMEONE TALKS SHUT UP AND VOTE YOU"RE BEING BITTER. Nobody gets to decide that and everyone gets to talk. It's a council not a soap box.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.29 19:12:00 - [66] Originally by: Drykor I hope next time maybe Darius can be a little more mature and less obstructionistic and the meeting could actually go somewhere. I truely don't believe this was his intention from the start but bitterness and prejudice can go a long way in ruining the effectiveness of these meetings. I realize I may be biased but I tried to read the log with an open mind and I was utterly disgusted by the time I got to the end. I actually didn't think Darius was behaving that badly. I've been at meetings before where I've gotten blindsided by things(I remember one particularly nasty teleconference where my cell phone cut out as I was shouting points of order - that meeting sucked), and I've seen others in similar situations. One simple "What the **** am I voting on?" is actually among the better behaviour I've seen from people blindsided by a motion they don't like. I'm not saying that any of the others are at fault either - meetings tend to degenerate in my experience if you allow informality and acrimony to mix - but Darius is hardly to blame. As for the motion at hand, the correct way to deal with it would be to have the meeting minutes go out to the rest of the Council as soon as Ankh finishes writing them up, allow time for comments on amendments to the minutes, put them all to the Council for approval at the next meeting, and then post them on the website. Chatlogs should probably be dealt with similarly - give people time to agree on what to redact, and then approve their posting at the next meeting(or, in extreme cases, agree not to). Meetings are weekly, so it wouldn't be an unreasonable delay. And to fill the gap, post a quick summary of motions considered - "Voted on thread #123456, Nerf Ships, passed", or something like that. People will get a bit whiny about the delays, but you want a clean paper trail, and this is the best way to ensure it. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Maggot Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.29 20:25:00 - [67] Aye, agreement on previous minutes is pretty standard practice as the first agenda item in any meeting.
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.29 20:42:00 - [68] I think that was the tamest meeting I have ever seen. I read the entire thing and this what I saw and this is my view of course. 1- Unorganized. First thing should have been done before the meeting ever took place (especially the first one), an outlined agenda should have been written out and agreed upon by the body. The chair and everyone else was was all over the place and I can see a lot of frustration by the members. And the CSM officers were wrong in to trying to muscle throughout the meeting. 2- Inanna Zuni / Alison Wheeler, seemed to be the most qualified member to be the Chair. She obviously is organized and pays attention to what is going on the most. And she seems to be able to work with everyone on the board whether in agreement or not. 3- The Goon issue. Yea, I can see right away that Bane and Darius react to and look at things differently. They might be in the same alliance or crop, but there is a difference of views between these two. Unfortunately most people with a bias slant to one member or not will spin something out of nothing. And For over 20+ years I have been on volunteer community committees, corporate boards, and publicly elected posts. And I can honestly say that this group is really mellow, almost totally passive. I have been in meetings where one of the officers had to be pepper sprayed and cuffed. Yay for the city council. Like it or not every member on that council has an opinion and it is not always the most popular one. And people will get defensive and argue their stance. That is what is supposed to happen. You will see all sorts of colorful fireworks and grandstanding. Its apart of the process. What does not work however is the over reacting and silencing of the members. Jade man, I am sorry but you came off a little heavy when it was not needed. It just sets you up for problems later. Let things develop and work it self out. IF you run out of time you move agendas to the next meeting. Trying to rush through them makes mistakes and creates issues. If the issue is that important for further discussion tabling it only should apply if more information is needed or specific time constraints prohibit the conclusion of the topic. If you have that much discussion there is a reason for it. Step back listen and watch where it goes. You will get more out of it. and better solutions will present it self.
Miner Nine	Posted - 2008.05.29 23:16:00 - [69] I think Darius has a legit issue. The way our minutes have always been handle, is the secretary/clerk records them. Sends them to everyone 48 hours before the next meeting(usually sends the minutes out a few hours after our meeting is over, our clerk is awesome). Start of next meeting, Someone motion to approve the minutes of the previous meeting. There is discussion on the motion and possible changes/corrections to the minutes. Then there is a vote. It's 2/3's for our minutes but that doesn't really matter. Giving the Chair the right to sign off on the minutes, also gives the Chair the right to not sign off on minutes thus vetoing them. It also adds extra responsibility on Jade Constantine that if you fail in some way, would deem that they should be remove from CSM. If the Chair and the Vice Chair are moderators, then they should also have to remain neutral thru out the discussion. I know with our Chair, they only get to vote if there is a tie and they have to remain neutral. But whatever, you guys aren't allow to talk about fixing lag. So my highest hope from CSM is already gone. There other smaller issues I have, but I doubt anyone would care. Meeting may work better by doing it over Teamspeak and people just type they want to speak and Jade just goes down thru the list in order.
AltBier Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.05.30 14:58:00 - [70] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto As for the motion at hand, the correct way to deal with it would be to have the meeting minutes go out to the rest of the Council as soon as Ankh finishes writing them up, allow time for comments on amendments to the minutes, put them all to the Council for approval at the next meeting, and then post them on the website. While I agree with you, there was a disagreement (most of the CSM thought the chair should sign), and I wonder how else the issue could have been resolved if not through a vote there and then.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.30 15:59:00 - [71] Originally by: AltBier Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto As for the motion at hand, the correct way to deal with it would be to have the meeting minutes go out to the rest of the Council as soon as Ankh finishes writing them up, allow time for comments on amendments to the minutes, put them all to the Council for approval at the next meeting, and then post them on the website. While I agree with you, there was a disagreement (most of the CSM thought the chair should sign), and I wonder how else the issue could have been resolved if not through a vote there and then. I'm not taking issue with the existence of a vote, I'm taking issue with the results. There's a pretty standard process for minutes the world 'round, and it's standard because it works. I'm saying that the CSM should adopt it. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Poreuomai Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.05.31 10:10:00 - [72] Edited by: Poreuomai on 31/05/2008 10:11:01 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto There's a pretty standard process for minutes the world 'round, and it's standard because it works. There does seem to have been some disagreement about what the standard way actually is: Quote: [ 2008.05.24 18:42:40 ] Jade Constantine > its how these things work Darius [ 2008.05.24 18:42:47 ] Jade Constantine > in committees [...] [ 2008.05.24 18:47:51 ] Serenity Steele > I think we're getting into a little positioning here. A person who chairs a meeting needs to QA the minutes and get them sent off. [ 2008.05.24 18:48:15 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Exactly, Serenity. This is what happens in real life too. [...] [ 2008.05.24 18:48:47 ] Inanna Zuni > I am wondering here whether those of us who have set on many bodies in our country are bringing that to this table assuming other countries / bodies do exactly the same
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.31 15:24:00 - [73] Originally by: Poreuomai Edited by: Poreuomai on 31/05/2008 10:11:01 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto There's a pretty standard process for minutes the world 'round, and it's standard because it works. There does seem to have been some disagreement about what the standard way actually is: Quote: [ 2008.05.24 18:42:40 ] Jade Constantine > its how these things work Darius [ 2008.05.24 18:42:47 ] Jade Constantine > in committees [...] [ 2008.05.24 18:47:51 ] Serenity Steele > I think we're getting into a little positioning here. A person who chairs a meeting needs to QA the minutes and get them sent off. [ 2008.05.24 18:48:15 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Exactly, Serenity. This is what happens in real life too. [...] [ 2008.05.24 18:48:47 ] Inanna Zuni > I am wondering here whether those of us who have set on many bodies in our country are bringing that to this table assuming other countries / bodies do exactly the same You know, that might well be true - my assumption that it's standard around the world is just that, an assumption, and given the nationality of the CSM(seriously, how the hell did we get more Dutch than Americans?), it's entirely possible they have different experiences. I still think it's a better method than the one they picked, but I can't rightfully claim universal approval when I do so. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2008.05.31 17:56:00 - [74] Originally by: Miner Nine Start of next meeting, Someone motion to approve the minutes of the previous meeting. There is discussion on the motion and possible changes/corrections to the minutes. Then there is a vote. It's 2/3's for our minutes but that doesn't really matter. This is common, but would have been impossible in this case as it's the secretary's reponsibility and duty to publish the minutes within 3 days according to the official CSM document. With meetings one week apart, it would have been impossible to comply with the requirements. --- Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
Windjammer	Posted - 2008.05.31 20:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Farrqua What does not work however is the over reacting and silencing of the members. Jade man, I am sorry but you came off a little heavy when it was not needed. It just sets you up for problems later. Let things develop and work it self out. IF you run out of time you move agendas to the next meeting. Trying to rush through them makes mistakes and creates issues. If the issue is that important for further discussion tabling it only should apply if more information is needed or specific time constraints prohibit the conclusion of the topic. If you have that much discussion there is a reason for it. Step back listen and watch where it goes. You will get more out of it. and better solutions will present it self. Jade certainly didn't over react and only made attempt to silence Darius after Darius made his objections well known including his objection to a vote being taken AND after Darius had said he had nothing more to say when asked if he did. When Jade did call for Darius to be quiet, it was ONLY so a vote could be taken. This is hardly heavy handed and asking Darius to pipe down so a vote could be taken was solidly within the mandate of the Chair. If Jade hadn't done so, he would not have been upholding his responsibility to moderate the meeting. The CSM does not have years to achieve its goals or even establish what those goals are. It has weeks and at the outside most, six months. For one member to repeatedly object to a vote being taken and allowed to successfully block a vote with that methodology cannot be allowed. The filibuster is a political tactic the CSM cannot afford to indulge. On another post you said you'd read the chat log three times. Yet you continue to defend Darius's actions and at the same time, incredibly, you fault Jade. I don't know where this bias stems from since it is not supported by what can be seen in the chat log. Jade was not heavy handed, was certainly not the only one done with Darius's performance, didn't try to railroad or rush a vote and, in point of fact, made every reasonable effort to obtain input prior to the vote being taken. The first point of your post was titled "Unorganized". You make some good observations and suggestions there. Perhaps you are unaware that Jade put together an informal meeting before the official meeting to try to achieve some of what you suggest. All CSM members were invited to the get together. No decisions to be made, just a meeting to brain storm how the first CSM meeting should be handled and organized. This was vigorously opposed by Darius who felt the only meetings that should be held were the official meetings. Tell you anything about the guy? Windjammer
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.31 21:24:00 - [76] Originally by: Windjammer The first point of your post was titled "Unorganized". You make some good observations and suggestions there. Perhaps you are unaware that Jade put together an informal meeting before the official meeting to try to achieve some of what you suggest. All CSM members were invited to the get together. No decisions to be made, just a meeting to brain storm how the first CSM meeting should be handled and organized. This was vigorously opposed by Darius who felt the only meetings that should be held were the official meetings. Tell you anything about the guy? Windjammer If what you say is true(and I'm not saying that it's not, merely that I haven't seen mention of this before), it tells me that he's probably pretty inexperienced at making a political organization work. The only way a group like this is functional is if at least 2/3 of the work is done ahead of time, either by delegation, a committee, or an informal brainstorming session of the type mentioned. 9 isn't a large organization, but it's too large for just sitting down and hashing things out at the formal meeting, if you want it to be done in a reasonable amount of time. You need to make use of delegation and informality if you want it to function properly, and neither can be done at a meeting of the whole organization. Frankly, what I'd suggest is that before every meeting, every CSMer make a post in every thread to be debated(or a similar comment on an internal list, if they don't want to be pinned to one position publicly), so that all the positions are at least a little bit known in advance and everyone has some idea of what to expect. I'll wait to see today's chatlog before I get too uppity about insisting upon that, but it seems like the easiest way of streamlining the actual meeting. This is doubly true for an international body like this one, since time zones are a major concern, and people can't always debate in real time, which makes the forum/email structure very convenient. Just my 2(or 20) cents... ------------------ Fix the forums!
Miner Nine	Posted - 2008.06.01 01:00:00 - [77] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Originally by: Miner Nine Start of next meeting, Someone motion to approve the minutes of the previous meeting. There is discussion on the motion and possible changes/corrections to the minutes. Then there is a vote. It's 2/3's for our minutes but that doesn't really matter. This is common, but would have been impossible in this case as it's the secretary's reponsibility and duty to publish the minutes within 3 days according to the official CSM document. With meetings one week apart, it would have been impossible to comply with the requirements. Impossible is something quiter says. CSM document doesn't say it can't be amended. There also no reason why you can't have more then one meeting a week. You can have the normal meeting and then a approvel of the minutes meeting 2 days later. Either way, saying it's impossible thus why your way is the only way seems very weak to me.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.01 01:07:00 - [78] Originally by: Miner Nine Impossible is something quiter says. CSM document doesn't say it can't be amended. There also no reason why you can't have more then one meeting a week. You can have the normal meeting and then a approvel of the minutes meeting 2 days later. Either way, saying it's impossible thus why your way is the only way seems very weak to me. You're being horribly unfair here - they found a solution. A functional one, at that. It's not the default one used in most councils, but it suits their needs just fine. And if chat logs go up as soon as the meeting ends, then the minutes are next to irrelevant anyways. It's fine, leave it alone. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Miner Nine	Posted - 2008.06.01 01:21:00 - [79] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Miner Nine Impossible is something quiter says. CSM document doesn't say it can't be amended. There also no reason why you can't have more then one meeting a week. You can have the normal meeting and then a approvel of the minutes meeting 2 days later. Either way, saying it's impossible thus why your way is the only way seems very weak to me. You're being horribly unfair here - they found a solution. A functional one, at that. It's not the default one used in most councils, but it suits their needs just fine. And if chat logs go up as soon as the meeting ends, then the minutes are next to irrelevant anyways. It's fine, leave it alone. A solution that changes the CSM document that CSMcrazyname says they can't approve the minutes next meeting due to the very same CSM document. It's not fine cause the logic behind the change is wrong. CSM document says minutes must be out 3days after the meeting. Thus change CSM document to allow Chair to sign off on the minutes. They acted like this was the only solution and Darius was made the bad guy cause he wanted all the members to voted on it. I remember countless times of our minutes being mess up, while logs are good it's quite clear there were problems with communcation in that meeting. They are setting up the ground work for future CSM. I think there are good reasons why most bodies that produce minutes have the voting members approve them, thus allowing them a chance to correct minutes or misunderstanding. Clerks make mistakes, if you look at the motion they were making. It was very unclear, yet Jade was trying to push a vote and probably didn't even know the question themselves since they had CrazyCSMname person say it. I do think it's interesting I'm unfair for speaking my opinion and pointing out this is how majority of the world does it. The logic is wrong and I'm more then free to point it out.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.01 02:45:00 - [80] Originally by: Miner Nine A solution that changes the CSM document that CSMcrazyname says they can't approve the minutes next meeting due to the very same CSM document. It's not fine cause the logic behind the change is wrong. CSM document says minutes must be out 3days after the meeting. Thus change CSM document to allow Chair to sign off on the minutes. They acted like this was the only solution and Darius was made the bad guy cause he wanted all the members to voted on it. I remember countless times of our minutes being mess up, while logs are good it's quite clear there were problems with communcation in that meeting. They are setting up the ground work for future CSM. I think there are good reasons why most bodies that produce minutes have the voting members approve them, thus allowing them a chance to correct minutes or misunderstanding. Clerks make mistakes, if you look at the motion they were making. It was very unclear, yet Jade was trying to push a vote and probably didn't even know the question themselves since they had CrazyCSMname person say it. I do think it's interesting I'm unfair for speaking my opinion and pointing out this is how majority of the world does it. The logic is wrong and I'm more then free to point it out. Letting the chair sign off on the minutes is hardly a change to the CSM document. It's a stopgap that was approved by the Council, and as such meets most rules of order I've ever seen. And Darius's objection sure didn't seem to me to be about the lack of a vote - the vote was being called, and that was his objection. He wanted more time, not more democracy. He also objected to the chair having power somebody else didn't, of course, but that explains what his vote was, not so much the debate around the voting. As for what they should do in future, I'd agree that they should seek a change to the structure of the minutes to allow them to be approved at the subsequent meeting, as most other organizations do, and use the chatlogs to fill the three-day rule. It seems almost backwards to have the more detailed version come out first, but it's probably the right solution. The unfair part was "Impossible is something quiter says" - something is against their constitution, thus they don't do it. That's not quitting, that's the rule of law, and attacking them for it is stupid - and, yes, unfair. Also, it's way easier to type "Ank" or "Ankh" than "CSMcrazyname". When it's too long or unpronounceable, just abbreviate it ------------------ Fix the forums!

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