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Uni makes a fool of Privateers, SECRET REVEALED

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Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:19:00 - [31] Edited by: Dlardrageth on 25/05/2008 11:20:17 Originally by: Ki An [...] /Edit: You're claiming to be a third party? You're obviously biased towards IVY, so you're either an alt or a fanboi. My guess is alt. You are aware this very argument works both ways? Substitute "IVY" by "Privateers" and the shoe might fit you. Real no-brainer. And no, I was referring to you, not myself, as I'm - obviously - neither an IVY Alt nor a fanboi but just a plain member of "IVY". Quote: [...] I used to like them too. Now they have proven again and again that the only thing they teach noobs is how to blob. They are part of the problem that is haunting 0.0 with blobs everywhere. The graduates of the Uni only knows one thing, and they bring that with them to their next alliance in the perpetuating spiral of blobs. I wish the Uni would stick to teaching courses in game mechanics and leave the PvP teaching to actual PvP corps.[...] Ah, now we finally get to the point. Been griefed much? "Proven again and again" suggests strongly you have some first-hand experience. If by "the graduates of the Uni" you refer to a specific Corp, well BRUCE!=IVY. Although if you refer to all graduates of the Uni, each and every single one, that is a gross generalization which we don't really have to take seriously. And nice as it is that you want to give us credit for at least teaching (or even inventing?) "the blob", are you serious about "teaching courses in game mechanics"? On the one hand you do harangue Uni for the use of those very game mechanics, on the other hand you ask to teach exactly this? Now what? You cannot eat the cake and keep it at the same time, sorry. As far as "PvP teaching" goes, I think that makes up about 10-20% of the whole curriculum. Your obvious failure at getting the facts straight leaves the impression you have no real clue when you talk about IVY/EVE-University, sorry again. Personally I'd freely admit that for example Agony Unleashed or VETO or Sniggwaffe teach much more focused PvP than the Uni does. Matter of individual focus. All due respect to them. And no real problem in my book. Of course if for whatever obscure reason you wish that E-Uni will teach their members absolutely nothing about PvP... feel free to do that. But I personally don't see that happening. Edit: Some spelling
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:23:00 - [32] Good thing trusting players elected an Exploit University member as CSM rep , heh.
Cunny	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:24:00 - [33] This thread is now about kittens.
Taua Roqa Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:29:00 - [34] I like to pick kittens up by the scruf of the neck so they go into that funny trance, then hold them to my face as they paddle their fluffy little paws against my joy-engorged cheek. I sometimes put their nose into my eye too, they are so cute. -------------------------------------------- [IMAGE REMOVED] Threads are stacking-nerfed; the more posts you add the less effective those posts are. My I/Q Ration!!!11
Ki An Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:29:00 - [35] Edited by: Ki An on 25/05/2008 11:31:32 Originally by: Dlardrageth You are aware this very argument works both ways? Substitute "IVY" by "Privateers" and the shoe might fit you. Real no-brainer. hehe you said no-brain... Originally by: Dlardrageth Ah, now we finally get to the point. Been griefed much? "Proven again and again" suggests strongly you have some first-hand experience. If by "the graduates of the Uni" you refer to a specific Corp, well BRUCE!=IVY. Although if you refer to all graduates of the Uni, each and every single one, that is a gross generalization which we don't really have to take seriously. I am not talking about "The Graduates", but those who leave your alliance after "learning" from you. You obviously won't take me seriously, but for an entity with the positive community support that you guys had to sink as low as you have here is sad indeed. Originally by: Dlardrageth And nice as it is that you want to give us credit for at least teaching (or even inventing?) "the blob", are you serious about "teaching courses in game mechanics"? On the one hand you do harangue Uni for the use of those very game mechanics, on the other hand you ask to teach exactly this? Now what? You cannot eat the cake and keep it at the same time, sorry. Don't try to make yourself any more stupid than you already are. You might explode (true story). Originally by: Dlardrageth As far as "PvP teaching" goes, I think that makes up about 10-20% of the whole curriculum. Your obvious failure at getting the facts straight leaves the impression you have no real clue when you talk about IVY/EVE-University, sorry again. Personally I'd freely admit that for example Agony Unleashed or VETO or Sniggwaffe teach much more focused PvP than the Uni does. Matter of individual focus. All due respect to them. And no real problem in my book. Yes, any of those corps are much better at teaching PvP than you are. However, new players are told to apply to Eve University and learn about the game. Your failure to provide adequate PvP teaching leads to a state where the community should stop sending new players to you. I am just pointing this out. Originally by: Dlardrageth Of course if for whatever obscure reason you wish that E-Uni will teach their members absolutely nothing about PvP... feel free to do that. But I personally don't see that happening. I would say, try to teach your students something of value instead of sitting in blobs camping gates. Take them out in small gangs. Teach them the merits of solo pvp. Try to be a positive force for PvP in Eve. If you don't enjoy pvp, tell this to your students so that they might chose a different benefactor. The jist of the problem is that Eve University isn't all it's cranked up to be. It used to be a good way for newbies to learn the game, but now you teach blobbing and exploitation of game mechanics. I don't know what has changed, but the direction that Eve University has taken is grounds for lobbying for a stop of the community support to you. I realise you don't want to accept this, but that's the way I feel. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Gealbhan Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:33:00 - [36] "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:36:00 - [37] As I understand this (I am no expert on war dec fees) Eve Uni is using alt corps to artificially inflate the cost to war dec them, IE paying 500 M in war dec fees while it would cost a legitimate coorp/alliance 2-4 times that amount. You can call it a clever use of mechanics, but I call that an exploit. Just like the old privateers declaring war on everyone known alliance was deemed to be wrong, I call this to be far worse as the old privateers never tried to do something tricky in declaring war, they were just flat out too successful. I cannoy believe any self-respecting player would be involved in such cowardly acts by this Eve-University. Either fight, disband or gb2wow. Originally by: CCP Casqade Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:36:00 - [38] Actually, I find this rather ironic. Very ingenious EvE-Uni.
Karando Random Goods	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:43:00 - [39] You got it wrong, Ki An, they just don't enjoy "unfair" PvP. I guess when they do PvP, they train how to defend an imaginary alliance held region (respectively blob camping). Because as long you can say the noobships and haulers you shoot were about to enter your own space illicitly, you can justify your pew pew. As you already said, they are trained for regular alliance blobbing. Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Dlardrageth Personally I'd freely admit that for example Agony Unleashed or VETO or Sniggwaffe teach much more focused PvP than the Uni does. Yes, any of those corps are much better at teaching PvP than you are. I'd even guess there's nothing the Uni teaches better than a PvP academy. (Okay, Production/Invention maybe, but that's it)
Iuris Proeliator Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Ki An I would say, try to teach your students something of value instead of sitting in blobs camping gates. Take them out in small gangs. Teach them the merits of solo pvp. Try to be a positive force for PvP in Eve. If you don't enjoy pvp, tell this to your students so that they might chose a different benefactor. I would ask then... what's your solution? Should we take 5 players, one with maybe 40m SP and the rest with 10m SP and have them go head to head with 3 55m SP players? We know how that'll end. The 5 players would get absolutely slaughtered. What you're suggesting is that if two organizations clash, and one has a population of much higher SP characters, they should always win, because it's "not fair" to fight that with superior numbers. The issue is that, with EVE's skill system, that means that one side will ALWAYS be the victor, since higher SP means the ability to generate more cash which leads to the ability to use better implants (or more clones with implants. I currently fly PVP in a no implant JC because I can't afford the loss), which leads to faster skill point generation... It becomes an endless cycle where the fight results were pre-determined beforehand. Secondly... Let's assume, for a second, that you are correct. Again, we're going to enter the hypothetical situation that Uni teaches the "Blob". Now, even according to your OWN STATEMENTS... 0.0 is currently blob on blob... shouldn't that be what the Uni teaches then? The reality of the game? You think that blob versus blob exists in 0.0 because the Uni teaches it? No, it exists because of game mechanics. I can fully sympathize with you disliking that situation, but we do not determine game mechanics. The only ones who can change the Blob v Blob situation is CCP. IF, and again that's an IF, the Uni did teach blob warfare, and then CCP changed how 0.0 works, you'd see a change in how things are taught. They teach the realities of the game, not a hypothetical ideal of what the game "should be". I recall asking questions from and learning from a "Devilish Ledoux", I belive the name was. A pirate of some renown, as I recall. At the time, I was feeling somewhat anti-pirate (I had just gotten ganked for the first time and felt like an idiot). As such, I didn't believe that what pirates did was "right". But by listening to him, and learning, I eventually came to the realization that it's a part of the game I had to accept. Now, it doesn't bother me in the least. So, before you go knocking a Uni Education, you should be aware of the realities of it. People ARE taught small gang warfare. Questions about Solo PVP are not only answered, but they are taught with delight as some of our instructors LOVE solo PVP (And are good at it to boot!). But, when attacked, we go with what works, sizeable fleets ((Not blobs, fleets. A blob is an unorganized mass. There IS organization, trust me.) which attempt to counter the vastly higher skillpoint/gear imbalance. And I'm not whining about said SP/gear imbalance, but if we don't have a right to counter that imbalance, what should we do? Offer ourselves up for sacrifice without fighting back? Never.

Tycho Na'Im	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:51:00 - [41] Edited by: Tycho Na''Im on 25/05/2008 11:56:03 it's time to move this thread to caod with the other insanity oh and Ivy, haven't you learned you can't reason with your enemies ? stay off the forums and fight harder, hooch will talk smack even if you beat him
Galacio Prognatus	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:55:00 - [42] Edited by: Galacio Prognatus on 25/05/2008 11:55:17 Originally by: Karando I'd even guess there's nothing the Uni teaches better than a PvP academy. (Okay, Production/Invention maybe, but that's it) You sir are an idiot and know nothing of this matter so shut the F up. The End. (And for the record I believe other corps teach better PvP)
Lucy'Lastic	Posted - 2008.05.25 12:21:00 - [43] Edited by: Lucy''Lastic on 25/05/2008 12:23:16 How lame for an entity the size of Eve Uni to do this. I used to reccomend to newbs thet they join Eve Uni. I suppose the Merc, Pirate and good old fashion 'griefing' corps everybody cries about can all do the same thing if they want. Nice to have a CSM member belonging to EU elected eh ? maybe he/she can push for more stuff like this to be allowed. Shame.
Ki An Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.25 12:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Iuris Proeliator I would ask then... what's your solution? Should we take 5 players, one with maybe 40m SP and the rest with 10m SP and have them go head to head with 3 55m SP players? We know how that'll end. The 5 players would get absolutely slaughtered. No, that is not the only cemented outcome. You can take the opportunity to teach tactics here. For instance, a five man gang of low skilled players that are highly organized and have good tactics will beat a 3 man gang of high skilled players that aren't organized and that has bad tactics. This is what newbies in Eve are struggling to understand, so that's what you should be teaching. Originally by: Iuris Proeliator What you're suggesting is that if two organizations clash, and one has a population of much higher SP characters, they should always win, because it's "not fair" to fight that with superior numbers. No, that's not what I am suggesting. The reality of your "tactics" is that you ONLY EVER use your superior numbers. Look at your war with TRAPS before the Privateers got involved. You met this small Pirate organization of not very high sp players with a massive blob. I know full well that this is how most people operate in Eve. I just don't like it and don't think it should be encouraged by endorsing you. Originally by: Iuris Proeliator The issue is that, with EVE's skill system, that means that one side will ALWAYS be the victor, since higher SP means the ability to generate more cash which leads to the ability to use better implants (or more clones with implants. I currently fly PVP in a no implant JC because I can't afford the loss), which leads to faster skill point generation... It becomes an endless cycle where the fight results were pre-determined beforehand. Not necessarily true, as I stated earlier. Originally by: Iuris Proeliator Let's assume, for a second, that you are correct. Again, we're going to enter the hypothetical situation that Uni teaches the "Blob". Now, even according to your OWN STATEMENTS... 0.0 is currently blob on blob... shouldn't that be what the Uni teaches then? The reality of the game? You think that blob versus blob exists in 0.0 because the Uni teaches it? No, it exists because of game mechanics. I can fully sympathize with you disliking that situation, but we do not determine game mechanics. The only ones who can change the Blob v Blob situation is CCP. IF, and again that's an IF, the Uni did teach blob warfare, and then CCP changed how 0.0 works, you'd see a change in how things are taught. They teach the realities of the game, not a hypothetical ideal of what the game "should be". I don't think this is a good defense, sir. Can't you see it's a vicious circle? Alliances in 0.0 blob. Eve Uni teaches blobs to new generations of players. Blob warfare gets worse. Eve Uni teaches more blobs. That said, this topic is not so much about blobbing as it is about you using a lame game mechanic to make yourselves virtually immune from anyone but the very richest. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.25 12:44:00 - [45] ORLY? What's next in the line? "E-Uni broke EVE!" "E-Uni are the new Goons!" "OMG HAXXploit!" or something similar perhaps? Man, this Tech-2 Drama bomb is totally IMBA... I call "nerf"...
Ki An Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.25 12:57:00 - [46] Originally by: Dlardrageth ORLY? What's next in the line? "E-Uni broke EVE!" "E-Uni are the new Goons!" "OMG HAXXploit!" or something similar perhaps? Man, this Tech-2 Drama bomb is totally IMBA... I call "nerf"... You're a freshman, yes? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Karando Random Goods	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:01:00 - [47] Edited by: Karando on 25/05/2008 13:01:10 Originally by: Galacio Prognatus Edited by: Galacio Prognatus on 25/05/2008 11:55:17 Originally by: Karando I'd even guess there's nothing the Uni teaches better than a PvP academy. (Okay, Production/Invention maybe, but that's it) You sir are an idiot and know nothing of this matter so shut the F up. The End. (And for the record I believe other corps teach better PvP) lol, yeah, you're right, thats why I said I guess. But it is very likely you learn how to play EVE in a non-academy corp as well. I actually know people who learned how to play without joining a corp. You don't need no bloody school system to get into a game. Oh, and next time, swear with your main.
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:12:00 - [48] Originally by: Ki An You're a freshman, yes? Not quite. I mean cannot be, lookie there: E-Uni exposed! And as noone would ever think that could not be true I cannot be one by definition. Or so... or whatever... And I'm not free to reveal my exact duties in the Uni apart from occasionally yelling at people in blobs and failing at shooting at poor solo WTs with my overpowered EW. Yeah. I think that could sum it up. Or not? scratches head Excuse me, I'm member of the Uni and thus a clueless nOOb... You might want to ask a director about me being freshman or not, though.
Karando Random Goods	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:13:00 - [49] Originally by: Iuris Proeliator Should we take 5 players, one with maybe 40m SP and the rest with 10m SP and have them go head to head with 3 55m SP players? We know how that'll end. The 5 players would get absolutely slaughtered. See, thats why you can't compete with PvP academies. Originally by: Iuris Proeliator 0.0 is currently blob on blob... shouldn't that be what the Uni teaches then? The reality of the game? No, because theres nothing to teach about blobbing. Originally by: Iuris Proeliator And I'm not whining about said SP/gear imbalance, but if we don't have a right to counter that imbalance, what should we do? In the unlikely case CCP revokes you the right to "counter that imbalance", you could exploit the game mechanics so it costs the attacking alliance 1bil/week to.. oh wait.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:19:00 - [50] What the heck is a CAOD post doing in General Forum? There might have been a point in the beginning but the OP edited his post and now it is just the usual corporation/alliance drivel and smack that nobody but themselves care about. If there is an issue here CCP will handle it. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute

X3k5 Brotherhood of the Phoenix Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:35:00 - [51] Edited by: X3k5 on 25/05/2008 13:43:01 There is a real misunderstanding here. I think a few members of the Uni itself dont know why they blob. Let me explain. Its not the SP/experience, not directly anyways because it can be overcome by tactics as it has been suggested. The real problem with EvE uni is what the players fly. Most EvE University players can ONLY fly a frigate and a cruiser at best. Now lets set the stage. 5 Uni players, minimum support skills in T1 cruisers against 3 T2 fitted HACs with players that have maxed/near maxed support skills with extensive small gang experience. Now show me the tactics that could overturn the outcome of this fight? If you come up with one, you've never been in a small HAC gang. I believe this to be the reason why the Uni blobs and they cant help themselves. This is going to be my only addition to this absurd thread which I believe should have been closed by now.
Ki An Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:41:00 - [52] Originally by: X3k5 Edited by: X3k5 on 25/05/2008 13:35:52 There is a real misunderstanding here. I think a few members of the Uni itself dont know why they blob. Let me explain. Its not the SP/experience, not directly anyways because it can be overcome by tactics as it has been suggested. The real problem with EvE uni is what the players fly. Most EvE University players can ONLY fly a frigate and a cruiser at best. Now lets set the stage. 5 Uni players, minimum support skills in T1 cruisers against 3 T2 fitted HACs with players that have maxed/near maxed support skills with extensive small gang experience. Now show me the tactics that could overturn the outcome of this fight? If you come up with one, you've never been in a small HAC gang. I believe this to be the reason why the Uni blobs and they cant help themselves. This is my going to be my only addition to this absurd thread which I believe should have been closed by now. If those five are in gank thoraxes of ruppies they can take down one of the HACs. They lose 5 ships worth 10 mil in total after insurance. The other guy loses a 100 mil uninsurable ship. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
X3k5 Brotherhood of the Phoenix Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:46:00 - [53] Edited by: X3k5 on 25/05/2008 13:46:24 Originally by: Ki An If those five are in gank thoraxes of ruppies they can take down one of the HACs. They lose 5 ships worth 10 mil in total after insurance. The other guy loses a 100 mil uninsurable ship. Nano HACs(which is the most common setup for HACs) can just MWD away and force the 5 to switch primary and this way take the cruisers down 1 by 1 while remaining untouched. And even MWD thoraxes cant catch HACs. As I said the 3 HAC players I am assuming to have extensive small gang experience so they would know such tactics. But my point was that everyone tries to play a war on their terms. The only way Uni can do so is by blobbing.
Righteous Deeds	Posted - 2008.05.25 14:53:00 - [54] Been in the Uni some time now. Been in a lot of very organized fleets. Never been in a blob. What do they look like?
Irdalth Delrar Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:55:00 - [55] Does it even matter to people that we do small gang/solo pvp? But who's gonna whine about small gangs/solo loses on the forums? Thus, its not on the forums, thus, it does not exist. Irdalth Delrar Instructor Eve University <IVY>
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Iuris Proeliator I would ask then... what's your solution? Should we take 5 players, one with maybe 40m SP and the rest with 10m SP and have them go head to head with 3 55m SP players? We know how that'll end. The 5 players would get absolutely slaughtered. If this is what you teach your "students" then my condolences go out to your pupils. They are getting an awful education in the mechanics of EVE and the possibilities that lower SP players actually have vs older players. Your statement motivates people that I've run into to not bother playing the game until they have x amount of SP. 5 vs 3 weighs heavily in favor of the 5, even more so if you know it's 5 vs 3 and you know what ships the 3 are in, regardless of SP. Teaching in absolutes is silly and you should take a step back to look at things in reality...not all 40+ mil SP players are actually any good at EVE =P --- Put in space whales!
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:22:00 - [57] - ivy self declares war to inflate price - devs said it's not an exploit - privateers said they will keep paying it what's the problem? sounds like all 3 parties are on the same page.
Ki An Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:32:00 - [58] Originally by: Faife - ivy self declares war to inflate price - devs said it's not an exploit - privateers said they will keep paying it what's the problem? sounds like all 3 parties are on the same page. The bolded part is the one thing we aren't clear on. One Eve Uni guy has apparently petitioned it and gotten an ok. I don't have to remind you the the creators of iMune did the same thing, right? My guess is that this will get fixed very soon, just like iMune. However, it won't be unless we make noise about it. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Doc Eldritch Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.25 19:05:00 - [59] Seems to me that there are two issues that are getting confused in this topic. 1.) The Privateer vs. EUNI war. 2.) Whether the tactic used by EUNI as described in the first few posts is an exploit or not. Let's not confuse them shall we? What's going on in the war between the Privateers and the UNI, who is winning or loosing, who is using which tactics, how long it will go on, etc etc does not really belong here. There's plenty of COAD threads on that subject already. Now about issue number 2 - again this can be split in 2 parts. 1.) Did the Uni use an exploit? 2.) Should this be an exploit in general? On part #1 that's a clear "No." - EUNI checked ahead of time whether this tactic was allowed and got confirmation. Whether you, personally, think that the Uni exploited is not really an issue here. It's within the game rules, the Uni got a go-ahead and acted. End of story. Part #2 - whether this kind of tactic should remain legitimate or whether its use could affect playing style in a negative way is certainly something that should be up for discussion. NOTE: All opinions expressed by me are my own and do not reflect the position of Eve University in general.
Sp4rt4nII70	Posted - 2008.05.25 19:11:00 - [60] It was my idea :D Well, at least I threw it onto the forum once



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