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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.05.04 09:25:00 -
[1]
Okay, As some of you have read, I was attacked by players and the sentry guns did not fire - that's not the issue I want to debate.
Currently we are in a situation where Sentry guns are totally random and CCP and the Games Masters are unwilling or unable to deal with it - and that is one of the direct causes of all the screaming and ranting going on on the forums.
Sentry guns per the support information have a range of 150km.
Sentry guns when I attack npc convoys blow me to pieces at 150km.
Yet when I query with GM support why the Sentry Guns as the gate I got shot at in didn't work on a target within 150km, I'm told in a blanket statement.
'Sentry guns have a range of 75km.'
This is blatently false, since I know if I attack a convoy at within 150km, I will die, it also contradicts CCP's own support site. So they MUST be broken - so way are GMs not doing anything about it?
As a result, CCP/ GMs are currently supporting the abuse of these broken guns that don't have the correct 150km range.
I don't mind PvP, getting shot at gave me a real buzz, but we need a level playing field. CCP need to either fix it or change them all and actually - dare I say it - TELL PLAYERS ABOUT IT.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 09:55:00 -
[2]
Press F12 ingame and petition. The GMs will be more than happy to answer all your questions. This thread is pointless. Thanks.
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Aelius
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Posted - 2004.05.04 09:58:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Viceroy
Press F12 ingame and petition. The GMs will be more than happy to answer all your questions. This thread is pointless. Thanks.
Do we have a new MOD squadie? 
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 09:59:00 -
[4]
I always wanted to be a mod, but they wont let me because I have an outstanding warning record 
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:01:00 -
[5]
Not entirely pointless at all - since either the Games Master is lying to me, or they do not know how the game works.
How can they state sentrys have 75km range when they also say they have 150km range AND in game some have 150km range?
Clarification is needed so that players know the risks they take by entering more dangerous areas.
As many pirates love to point out, this is a game of Risk and Reward - I'd like to know the risks so that I can judge the rewards appropriately.
This is not a comment on PvP nor piracy, so your flame is both insulting and incorrect.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:08:00 -
[6]
I'm not flaming or insulting you. I'm pointing out that you can submit a petition via the petition system ingame which can be activated by using the F12 key. You can ask your question by submitting an EXPLOIT petition and you'll probably get an answer.
So where's the flame and insult?
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:14:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Valentine Keen on 04/05/2004 10:16:22
The petition is onging, however I raise the topic here so that other players can discuss the issue and perhaps enlighten me as to why the Sentry Guns seem to be broken.
Surely you must agree if we could get a firm statement on the sentry guns in pubic it would benefit all players and hopefully reduce the number of whining and exploitation posts.
After all, if CCP or a representative could explain how the sentry guns worked or why they work differently in different places, there might not be threads such as the one bemoaning Zombie.
After all, if they are within the game rules, good luck to them, but I need a decent explanation of the Sentry Guns in order to see that - especially since so far the GMs seem incapable of answering the issue in a coherent and consistant manner.
Edit: I apologise if you did not intend it as a flame, though I felt the comment 'This thread is pointless' rather harsh, since that's a matter of personal opinion.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:18:00 -
[8]
So submit a petition and get all the answers you want. You dont need to start a public thread, It'll just cause flame wars. GMs publicly stated that Zombies werent exploiting in any way, that includes this case I'm afraid. But still I urge you to submit a petition to get an answer yourself, since all this thread is going to do is make people scream either "YES EXPLOIT BAN!" or "NO EXPLOIT STFU!", thus creating a flamefest.
All in all, submitting a petition is much more healthy, easy and reliable than opening a forum thread (thats already been opened a thousand times) and asking for an offical answer (thats already been given on several occasions) from a community (that is known to start flame wars over a bag of peanuts).
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:22:00 -
[9]
Okay fine - so what is the official answer over sentries then, if it's been given? - because I can't find it.
Is it 150km, or 75km, or does it vary between security status areas? - That's what I'm trying to find out.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:24:00 -
[10]
Hit F12 and submit a petition, you'll get an answer.
If zombies did it, the flamefest thread before this had a GM reply saying zombies werent exploiting in any way, so its not an exploit.
But STILL, you should submit a petition and get an answer for yourself. Exploit petitions are answered very quickly, and you'd probably have an answer by now if you'd posted one instead of openining this pointless thread.
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:31:00 -
[11]
I already have petitioned, as I pointed out, the GM gave me an incorrect answer that contradicts the CCP Support page and the physical game itself, I have queried it, but am at work so cannot chase it. Thus I am seeking information that might enlighten us all as to how they are supposed to work.
The only issue answered over Zombie has so far been the jamming of sentries - something I am perfectly willing to accept as a valid tactic.
The issue of broken sentry gun range, which I have been lead to believe by several players in game and out, is an exploit, has not been addressed there.
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Jazz Bo
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Viceroy
GMs publicly stated that Zombies werent exploiting in any way, that includes this case I'm afraid.
The GMs said that they went to Atlar and didn't see Zombie exploiting a couple of weeks ago.
How can you know that this case is similar?
Tanking sentry guns = fine.
Sentry guns not firing on aggressors within range = sentry guns broken or something else wrong.
It may or may not be exploiting on the Zombie pilot's behalf, but he has every reason to ask what's going on. And CCP saying publicly that this is a bug and not the result of a valid tactic would be good because then everyone losing their ship because of this would know they were justified in petitioning and getting their ship back, instead of just logging off to cry in their coffee.
Originally by: DB Preacher
Celestial Apocalypse - Brave souls fighting the endless smak.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:40:00 -
[13]
Quote:
I already have petitioned, as I pointed out, the GM gave me an incorrect answer that contradicts the CCP Support page and the physical game itself, I have queried it, but am at work so cannot chase it. Thus I am seeking information that might enlighten us all as to how they are supposed to work.
Well If you dont like the answer you got from a petition then I'm afraid there's nothing the GMs can do. I dont think it matters if GM decisions contradict support pages, the final decision belongs to the GM team. So I suggest that you trust the judgement of the GM team, as I dont think the support page outranks them.
And since you got an answer to your petition, whats the point of opening a thread? Whatever the GM said, its probably right. If you dont think it is e-mail support or submit another petition and another GM will process it hopefully.
Quote:
The only issue answered over Zombie has so far been the jamming of sentries - something I am perfectly willing to accept as a valid tactic.
No, the GM stated that zombies weren't exploiting. He did not state what they were doing or how they were doing it.
Quote:
The issue of broken sentry gun range, which I have been lead to believe by several players in game and out, is an exploit, has not been addressed there.
Player opinions dont count in exploit issues. It doesnt matter if 90% of the community thinks its an exploit, GMs make the final decision, player opinions arent taken into consideration.
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:43:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Viceroy
Quote:
I already have petitioned, as I pointed out, the GM gave me an incorrect answer that contradicts the CCP Support page and the physical game itself, I have queried it, but am at work so cannot chase it. Thus I am seeking information that might enlighten us all as to how they are supposed to work.
Well If you dont like the answer you got from a petition then I'm afraid there's nothing the GMs can do. I dont think it matters if GM decisions contradict support pages, the final decision belongs to the GM team. So I suggest that you trust the judgement of the GM team, as I dont think the support page outranks them.
And since you got an answer to your petition, whats the point of opening a thread? Whatever the GM said, its probably right. If you dont think it is e-mail support or submit another petition and another GM will process it hopefully.
Well, no, not really, telling me guns have a 75km range when they shoot me at 150km if I attack a convoy isn't really a very good answer and very definately isn't right.
Plus, I thought I'd raise it here because it is a very relevant issue to many players, surely we all need to know the range of these guns?
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Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:44:00 -
[15]
Look...here is how it is...
There is a problem with the sentries in some systems it seems (the 150-75 range thing). CCP DID say that whoever was taking advantage of this would be banned.
YEs that is true...whats also true is...
The sentrieguns in lower security empire space have been nerfed. It said so in the news a week or 2 ago. From what i can tell from the news the sentrieguns would be less numerous (2 guns per gate opposed to 4-6) and they would be dampeneble. I have not tried this myself so i can't say for SURE...however
Why would the news say this if it wasn't true?
More facts...
The fact that Zombie engaged you from 78km would mean that they are either taking the damage from the sentries (which is possible if you tank them) OR they have dempened them down to 75km or less targeting range (which according to the news would also be possible).
They are however NOT taking advantage of the sentrygun range bug. I know this because the devs have said people would be banned over this, its an exploit since its taking advantage of a bug...
Zombie's action have been investigated and were considered NOT exploiting. Ina previous thread about this a GM came in and personally stated that it was NOT an exploit.
This means that they are NOT exploiting the sentriebugs and are instead using legit tactics to avoid death from sentries, by tanking or EW...whatever the case its legal.
As for the sentriegun range bug. My guess is that 'some' sentries suffer from this bug but not all.
Just to be absolutly sure i'm making myself fully clear...
Scenario:
Givens: I want to camp a gate, there are sentries there, they suffer from the rangebug (75km)
Now to camp this gate without being bannable i need to either stay at 150+ km from the sentries OR i need to use ew on the sentries untill their unbugged range would be closer then what i am at that moment...
The actual range of the gun at that time does not matter since its a bug..
clear?
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:44:00 -
[16]
Quote:
The GMs said that they went to Atlar and didn't see Zombie exploiting a couple of weeks ago.
It was a couple of days ago I believe, not in ancient history.
Quote:
How can you know that this case is similar?
Because I'm usually there with them.
Quote:
It may or may not be exploiting on the Zombie pilot's behalf, but he has every reason to ask what's going on.
Thats exactly why I've been telling him to petition instead of relying on player answers. Submit a petition, clear all your doubts.
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fras
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:45:00 -
[17]
I can see how this issue is confusing for many.
First sentries were changed to 150k
Then it was discovered not all were changed and it was an "exploit" to take advantage of those stuck at 75k.
Now all sentries are 75k, but they're not really because they wern't all changed back.
Petitions are cool for 1 on 1 info, but there's nothing wrong with a public discussion, particularly when it's regarding people knowing game mechanics. It's not like there's a decent manual for this game or anything..
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:48:00 -
[18]
Ulendar, since you seem to be expert in this - is it possible for ONE ship to dampen 2 sentry guns, so that neither fire, and still take shots at me 78km, meaning he is a very, very long way from those jammed guns?
Because when I was attacked there was only one and he wasn't getting shot.
If someone can tell me that, I'll accept it as being jamming, however I don't think it would be that easy to dampen the guns, otherwise every noob rat in a battleship would be doing it.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:48:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Well, no, not really, telling me guns have a 75km range when they shoot me at 150km if I attack a convoy isn't really a very good answer and very definately isn't right.
So the GM stated that sentries have 75km range? Whats the problem then?
If you think sentries have 150km range, then submit a bug report about it, since the GM said sentry range was 75km.
You got an answer and you're not happy about it? 
E-Mail customer support! 
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Bohr
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:50:00 -
[20]
I have noticed that right after Yulai, and the new sentries, they had the names, Sentry Gun, Sentry Gun I and Sentry Gun II (hence Basic, Tech I and Tech II modules).
From that i'm obviously led to belive that they have different range due to their tech level, and as such, better at protecting the gate, the closer you get to it.
Then came a message stating that they were out of order, and due to that did'nt function at 150km range. And some message stating do not misuse this bug.. mmmh.. Seemed to me obviously a note from CCP more or less allowing it in certain areas. After that they changed back to the basic sentries with 75km range. Correct me if i'm wrong.
So now it seems you have some well protected areas (highsec), and less protected areas (lowsec). Sentries have 75km range, wich is nothing for a well equipped pirate, and are therefore not safe in lowsec at any rate.
Anyway, some clarity on what is and is'nt allowed where would work wonders.
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Jazz Bo
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Viceroy
Quote:
The GMs said that they went to Atlar and didn't see Zombie exploiting a couple of weeks ago.
It was a couple of days ago I believe, not in ancient history.
Link
"Posted - 2004.04.25 19:33:00
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Hi folks,
this is just to make it known that we GMs have observed this camping in Atlar and investigated it very carefully and there is no exploit involved.
"
Ok, a week and a half then.
Originally by: DB Preacher
Celestial Apocalypse - Brave souls fighting the endless smak.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:55:00 -
[22]
Yes, and that makes all my points invalid 
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Lianhaun
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Posted - 2004.05.04 10:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Viceroy
Press F12 ingame and petition. The GMs will be more than happy to answer all your questions. This thread is pointless. Thanks.
Pookeh full of wisdom today
You want an answer to your question? Petitioning gets you an official answer. Conclusion: petition instead of spamming several threads
This is not a hijack
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MATANDO
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Posted - 2004.05.04 11:05:00 -
[24]
Me and a corp buddy were ganked also over there.
But yes we will petition since the forum doesn't seem to result in much
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Audiofreaks
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Jazz Bo
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Posted - 2004.05.04 11:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Viceroy
Yes, and that makes all my points invalid
Yes, it does.
/pours lighter fluid on Viceroy's points and sets them on fire just to be sure
Originally by: DB Preacher
Celestial Apocalypse - Brave souls fighting the endless smak.
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Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.05.04 11:08:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Ulendar on 04/05/2004 11:11:35
Originally by: Valentine Keen
Ulendar, since you seem to be expert in this - is it possible for ONE ship to dampen 2 sentry guns, so that neither fire, and still take shots at me 78km, meaning he is a very, very long way from those jammed guns?
Because when I was attacked there was only one and he wasn't getting shot.
If someone can tell me that, I'll accept it as being jamming, however I don't think it would be that easy to dampen the guns, otherwise every noob rat in a battleship would be doing it.
Erm i never said i was an expert...infact i stated that i wasn't SURE because i haven't tested this myself. I am repeating back to you what people (gm's dec's) have stated in the not so distant past ;)
I suppose that IF its possible to damp sentries (as the news states) AND they have 75km range now (as GM's stated). Then it would be very EASY to damp 2 sentrieguns at a time...
Each sensordampener halves the range fo the gun. So 75/2 = 38.5. So with 2 sensordampeners on each sentrie they would have a range of 38.5km each.
If the sentries have 75km range though and this guy was at 78km then they wouldn't fire regardless :)
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.04 11:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: MATANDO
Me and a corp buddy were ganked also over there.
But yes we will petition since the forum doesn't seem to result in much
Wisdom!
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.05.04 11:10:00 -
[28]
Where's skillz when you need him ?
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.05.04 11:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: MATANDO
Me and a corp buddy were ganked also over there.
But yes we will petition since the forum doesn't seem to result in much
lol so....what were you expecting?
For some CCP official to come in here and say 'ofc mis MATANDO, we will upgrade the sentriegun to 1 bilion range and 1 bilion dam each bilionth of a second IMIDIATLY, ban all of zombies and everyone who was near them. Then we will make an official statement that gatecamping is from now on exploit'??
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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zincol
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Posted - 2004.05.04 11:14:00 -
[30]
You tell em GM Vice.
lol.
w00t!
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