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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.26 09:05:00 -
[1]
I will preface this post by acknowledging this could well be the wrong forum; both "Game Ideas" and "Ship and Modules" are worthy fits. However, I believe that this post is targeting a bug, not a new gameplay concept, not a new module to be dissected. It is a fix in a longstanding weapon.
With Factional Warefare coming up within the next 2 months, and along with it lots of Sisi testing, this is the perfect opportunity for this bug to be addressed and fixed. I sincerely hope this is at least reviewed by CCP; the fix solves many Nano problems with just a simple variable change.
I used ElectroFreak's resolved missile damage formula for the below figures; they mirror what is seen in game. For reference, his original thread is Here.
Formal Petition: Fix Precision Heavy Missiles
Introduction:
Precision Missiles are weapon systems that are designed to give the skilled missile user a weapon capable of dealing with fast or small targets that would normally exceed high power missiles ability to engage. They attempt to perform this task while giving up firepower, range, and ship velocity.
In their current incarnation, precision lights are the only system capable of achieving this goal. Precision Heavy Missiles are in every way worse to Precision Cruise Missiles, and both Precision Heavy and Precision Cruise are inadequate to engage fast moving targets.
While a buff to Precision Missiles on the whole would be nice (not to mention all T2 ammo), I believe that to be beyond the feasible range of short term implementation. In the case of T2 heavy missiles, we are dealing with a bug, and it is high time it is fixed.
Raw Stats:
These are the base states of all T1 guided missiles and their T2 Precision Counterparts. The impact of skills + ship bonuses will be examined in the next section.
Light Missiles: These are the only decent precision missiles. They do not carry reduced range or damage compared to their T1 base, have 71% better explosion velocity and 250% improved explosion radius. The explosion radius is completely wasted, however, given that 50m is already at your average frigate level, and 20m is smaller than a pod. -7.5% Ship Velocity is an extreme penalty; it effectively prevents any frigate class vessel from using these without murdering their own speed as well.
Light: Velocity: 3750m/s Flight Time: 5.00s Est. Max Range: 18750m Explosion Velocity: 1750m/s Explosion Radius: 50m damage: 75
Precision Light: Velocity: 3750m/s Flight Time: 5.00s Est. Max Range: 18750m Explosion Velocity: 3000m/s Explosion Radius: 20m damage: 75 Drawback: -7.5% Ship Velocity
Heavy Missiles: These are the worst of all precision missiles. They carry reduced range, reduced velocity (the only one to do so), reduced damage, and marginal gains in precision and explosion velocity. They are, for all intents and purposes, worthless. The -5% ship velocity is a deal breaker for any nano-HAC that would wish to employ these. While a lower value than the Light missiles, these ships carry the most launcher hardpoints of any missile class until the Caldari Navy Raven (Hawk: 4, Caracal/Cerberus: 5, CN Caracal: 6, Drake: 7, Raven: 6, CN Raven: 7), while still needing the speed advantage like frigates (notable exception: Drake)
Heavy: Velocity: 3750m/s Flight Time: 10.00s Est. Max Range: 37500m Explosion Velocity: 750m/s Explosion Radius: 125m damage: 150
Precision Heavy: Velocity: 3250m/s Flight Time: 5.25s Est. Max Range: 17062.5 Explosion Velocity: 1000m/s Explosion Radius: 75m damage: 135 Drawback: -5% Ship Velocity
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.26 09:06:00 -
[2]
Cruise Missiles: Precision Cruise Missiles have better stats in every field than Precision Heavies, save only explosion radius (which is meaningless, but will be discussed in another section). They are left, ironically, with no target class to shoot at: Nothing of the battleship or battlecruiser size moves at the speeds you would really need these. Most ships will go much faster than your explosion velocity will ever hope to reach. The -4% ship velocity is the kindest to the ship class most immobile; no cruise raven is going to care about that penalty. These missiles suffer from all the reduced damage and range of Heavies.
Cruise: Velocity: 3750m/s Flight Time: 20,000s Est. Max Range: 75,000m Explosion Velocity: 500m/s Explosion Radius: 300m Damage: 300
Precision Cruise: Velocity: 3750m/s Flight Time: 10.00s Est. Max Range: 37500m Explosion Velocity: 1000m/s Explosion Radius: 200m damage: 260 Drawback: -4% Ship Velocity
Overview:
The Precision Heavy is slower for no reason, has a meaningless 33% explosion velocity improvement (compared to the 100% improvement to explosion velocity of Precision Cruise over base), a heavy velocity penalty, and dramatically shorter range. Precision Cruise are in every way superior for shooting nano-HACs than a Precision Heavy. This is the equivalent of Battleship long range turrets having superior tracking, range, and damage of cruiser class counterparts.
Impact of Skills
After level 5 skills (not unreasonable for Target Navigation Prediction û Rank 2), these explosion velocities are as follows:
Light: 2625m/s Precision Light: 4500m/s
Heavy: 1125m/s Precision Heavy: 1500m/s
Cruise: 750m/s Precision Cruise: 1500m/s
Where are the explosion Radiuses you ask? Frankly, in the age of the MWD, these are irrelevant. The worst case scenario, a MWDing Interceptor, has a signature radius of around 160m^2. A T1 cruise missile with Guided Missile Precision 4 has an explosion radius of 240m^2. Your need reduction from signature loss is a mere -33.33%. However, it is far worse than this. The missile damage formula picks the worst case variable: speed or radius.
The interceptor will outrun your missileÆs explosion radius by several fold; you will see no lost damage to radius as your explosion velocity will reduce far more than -33.33%. In other words, in the vast, vast, vast majority of situations, you will never see explosion radius matter. If it does matter, your damage reduction is nothing compared to that target using speed anyways.
What Will Those Missiles Hit For? This article will show what Level V TNP missiles will hit a target an X velocity for in % damage transferred. 100% = no damage lost to velocity, 1% = 1% of listed missile damage was transferred (pre-resistances).
Light Missiles: 4500m/s vs: 5000m/s: 89.48393168% 5500m/s: 64.11803884% 6000m/s: 36.78794412% 6500m/s: 16.90133154% 7000m/s: 6.217652402% 7500m/s: 1.831563889% 8000m/s: 0.432023947%
Interceptors rapidly enter the zone of ôminimal damageö. A max skilled P-ASM Cerberus can take ~25 seconds to kill a 6kms interceptor, ~35 to kill a 6.3kms inty, ~50 to kill 6.5kms, and it gets even sillier from there on in. Precession Lights fired from ASM IIs are the only missile capable of hitting nano-HACs.
Heavy + Cruise Missiles: 1500m/s vs: 2000m/s: 89.48393168% 2500m/s: 64.11803884% 3000m/s: 36.78794412% 3500m/s: 16.90133154% 4000m/s: 6.217652402% 4500m/s: 1.831563889% 5000m/s: 0.432023947%
The numbers here speak for themselves. Nano-Hacs are untouchable by missiles (even the awkward Cerberus will have a free -36% to incoming damage); even if they do hit for 20%, they still have to go through T2 resistances and tens of thousands of EHP on top of any active tank / shield regen the ship will boast.
Precision Cruise Missiles are Faster, Longer Reaching, More Damaging, and just as ôPreciseö as Heavy Precision Missiles. In short, Precision Heavies are broken.
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.26 09:07:00 -
[3]
Edited by: MalVortex on 26/05/2008 09:07:29 Proposed Solution: Fix The TypoÆs
I really cannot imagine that these figures are intentional. There is no reason for Heavy Precision Missiles to be missing a base 500m/s to their velocity, nor should their explosion velocity be the same as Cruise Missiles!
The Fix:
Precision Heavy Stats (w/o skills): Velocity: 3250m/s -> 3750m/s Explosion Velocity: 1000m/s -> 2000m/s
This would give Precision Heavy missiles their rightful base velocity as every other guided missile (the broken Rage excluded). This would also create a tiered stepping in explosion velocity:
Precision Light: 3000m/s Precision Heavy: 2000m/s Precision Cruise: 1000m/s
The New Damage % Breakdown at Level V skills:
Precision Heavy û 3000m/s (2000*1.5) 3500m/s: 89.48393168% 4000m/s: 64.11803884% 4500m/s: 36.78794412% 5000m/s: 16.90133154% 5500m/s: 6.217652402% 6000m/s: 1.831563889% 6500m/s: 0.432023947%
These damage %Æs are sufficient to impart meaningful DPS to most Nano-HACS, while not being anywhere near fast enough to hit interceptors. They become û yes û a lower damage, lower ranged (still has half flighttime), anti-fast cruiser weapon. The Roll They Are Supposed to Perform.
I humbly submit that these figures be reviewed by CCP carefully, and implemented at the earliest possible opportunity for play-testing on Sisi.
- MalVortex
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.26 09:09:00 -
[4]
- Reserved -
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Spenz
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.05.26 09:59:00 -
[5]
Wow. Heavy precision missiles are terrible! They have the flight time of a frigate weapon, the explosion radius of a battleship weapon, and do only slightly better damage than a frigate weapon.
I don't really know what to say about it. Hope it gets fixed.
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
Albaluna74
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Posted - 2008.05.26 11:42:00 -
[6]
MalVortex, thank you for posting. I hope this time we'll read a CCP post, I would like to understand why t2 heavy precision has to suck so badly.
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.05.26 12:35:00 -
[7]
Precision Heavies are truely terrible.
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Fador
Lyonesse. KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.26 12:45:00 -
[8]
/signed
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.05.26 17:31:00 -
[9]
I've got to say, that's an astonishingly well-put-together piece of persuasive writing. My english professor friends would give it an "A".
I have heavy missile skills maxed due to my tendency to fly a Crane fitted for combat -- heavy missiles on a hauler, baby! And I like to maximize the damage I can get out of my one launcher. Fortunately, I don't encounter fast targets much. I did experiment with precisions for taking down Hulk drones, concluded they didn't work any better than regular heavies (i.e., not at all), and gave them up as a bad job. Do you want a sledgehammer or a precision sledgehammer for smashing flies? Meh, I want a flyswatter.
All that said, I am persuaded. It sounds like a fix is in order! ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Tozmeister
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.05.26 23:02:00 -
[10]
You know the really ironic thing? they did used to have a 2000m/s explosion velocity when they were first released but the nano brigade whined very hard on the forums and CCP nerfed in down to its current pitiful state.
Then the inhabitants of Nanofag island got rigs. The speed explosion was immense and what was CCP's response to bring precision missiles back to the table? absolutely nothing. Heavy precisions have been broken for years but are lingering at the bottom of the priority list next to the medium and light webber drones which have still not been released after 2 years of existing only in the database.
Asleep at the wheel yet again CCP.
+++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.27 01:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tozmeister You know the really ironic thing? they did used to have a 2000m/s explosion velocity when they were first released but the nano brigade whined very hard on the forums and CCP nerfed in down to its current pitiful state.
Hm, poking around on EVE Search this does seem to be accurate, a patch back in mid-2006. Frankly, the concerns of then are not the concerns of now. The in-game, real application numbers irrefutably demonstrate that a 2000m/s explosion velocity on heavy missiles would be fine in today's era. It is trivially easy to permanently ignore a heavy missile based ship's damage on the ships its designed to hit. For fracks sake, they so nerfed this missile its worse than the cruise variant in every way possible.
I can't speak to whether this nerf was justified in the days of old. However, in the days of the modern nano-HAC (complete with 4 more ultra-fast Faction Cruisers inbound), missile users are the only weapon system that is significantly mitigated engaging ships at standard operational speeds.
Bring Back 2000m/s explosion velocity CCP! The numbers themselves show that that this is both required and a balanced change.
Thank you for the positive feedback all. Lets keep this topic alive and active.
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AshtarDJ
Filthy Scum
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Posted - 2008.05.27 08:04:00 -
[12]
Edited by: AshtarDJ on 27/05/2008 08:06:04
Originally by: Tozmeister Asleep at the wheel yet again CCP.
Definatelly not!!! They are just too busy with ambulation that they forget that sometimes they need to balance some things in the game. ;)
/me signs this thread...
There are very very few weapons against the nano-HACs gangs that are pretty much taking over the PvP side of this game (huginns if they manage to survive more then 5 seconds, neuts if one of them "luckilly" gets in range and smartbombs that don't kill them, but since Ishtars are so popular nanoships, you can at least buy yourself some time with smartbombs). I would very much like to have a chance to hit those "zoom zoom" buggas. Explosion velocity on heavies would be a very nice start.... a boost for target painters would be even better....
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Efdi
Tritanium Workers Union
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Posted - 2008.05.27 08:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: AshtarDJ neuts if one of them "luckilly" gets in range
You mean the 24km scramble range of a T2 Warp Disruptor, which just happens to be the range of a heavy neut? Or is there some other lucky range I'm missing? _______________________________ Yes, I am an alt. No, I can't post with my main; he's forum banned. Yes, I will be happy to smack you with my main when I'm unbanned. |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.05.27 11:13:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/05/2008 11:15:11
Originally by: MalVortex Cruise Missiles: They are left, ironically, with no target class to shoot at: Nothing of the battleship or battlecruiser size moves at the speeds you would really need these. Most ships will go much faster than your explosion velocity will ever hope to reach.
Cruise: Explosion Velocity: 500m/s (*750m/s with skills)
Precision Cruise: Explosion Velocity: 1000m/s (*1500m/s with skills)
Obviously, precision cruises are geared for shooting moving BCs (which all go over 1km/s) and non-nano T1 cruisers (which all move at roughly 1.4-1.6km/s). Which is very fine for a BS weapon system really.
However, for some odd reason, precision heavies are the horrible and utter suck - only useful for situation where a lot of DPS is mitigated via sig size (which is quite rare - being attacked by a T1/T2 close-range frigate is a situation where you'd use them really).
If you want weapons vs really fast ships, though, missiles don't (and won't) really cut it. Turrets are the best thing there is in that case (for instance, while a Drake won't touch a nano-HAC unless it gets to web it, a dual falloff rigged Hurricane or a unrigged Harbringer, particularly with gankier fits, will send it running for its life).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
daremo shirnai
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.05.27 11:34:00 -
[15]
The cerb could have a chance against other nano-hacs if this was implemented... As it is now it's pretty useless.
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Morfane
The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.05.27 15:54:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tozmeister ...next to the medium and light webber drones which have still not been released after 2 years of existing only in the database.
I asked a dev about this at least year's fanfest. He said they were 'too uber' and would likely not ever be introduced.
Morf
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Ishina Fel
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.05.27 15:55:00 -
[17]
Have you considered bringing this to the CSM forum yet?
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.27 16:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ishina Fel Have you considered bringing this to the CSM forum yet?
I'd be afraid crossposting would get both topics locked. My original hope was that this was just a longstanding typo, but given its a "feature", changing the missile will likley be much more difficult.
Ishina if you want to post in CSM regarding this topic and link back to here thats fine. I'll look into posting on CSM regarding precision heavies later this evening when I have time.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.05.27 16:27:00 -
[19]
Superb posts, impeccably researched and clearly presented. I echo your sentiments in the strongest manner possible!
Ideally, in our new "everyone has 2 polcyarbs" nano world, all precision missiles would be retooled to be effective against nano ships. But I realize that would take a lot of work.
What *doesn't* take a lot of work is implementing the fixes described to the precision heavy missiles to fix the obvious bugs making it a steaming pile of pure and utter crap.
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Wesley Baird
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2008.05.27 17:02:00 -
[20]
Great post, deserves a dev response.
MDK Recruitment Info |
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.05.27 17:09:00 -
[21]
And in case some of our nano friends are worrying that this might make their tactics obsolete, well, it's not that simple. Fixed Precision Heavies may well be able to effectively damage a nanoHAC, but without a web on them, they'd still have time to MWD to range and outrun the missiles, or just warp out.
Base explosion velocity on Precision Heavies must be fixed to 2000 m/s.
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Relyen
Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.05.27 18:04:00 -
[22]
This is an excellent post and definitly deserves a dev response.
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RuriHoshino
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.05.27 19:15:00 -
[23]
Signed. This was indeed a rare and enjoyable post, exactly what we need more of to encourage positive dev response and engaging players in civilised and meaningful discussions about the game.
Not to mention that the point is completely valid. As a proponent of the BattleDrake in pvp, I would like to see my HMLIIs used for something besides gimping my range and slowing my already marginal speed when I need to engage tackling ships. It would also give the T2 missiles a role in the game besides bring the worse choice compared to faction. ________________
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Bronson Hughes
The. Conspiracy
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Posted - 2008.05.27 19:32:00 -
[24]
Excellent post. Aside from making sense from a logical point of view, this would give Heavy Missile users far better capability against NanoHACs without overpowering them. The Drake and the Cerberus, probably the biggest consumers of heavy missiles from a PvP standpoint, would benefit greatly from this change. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Arous Drephius
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.05.27 19:41:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Arous Drephius on 27/05/2008 19:42:33 Very good post, hopefully CCP will do something about it.
EDIT: This is the sort of post we need in these forums, not "OMFG X AND Y ARE BROKEN, CCP FIX NOW PLS".
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Caligulus
Colinear Exemptions
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Posted - 2008.05.27 20:18:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tozmeister You know the really ironic thing? they did used to have a 2000m/s explosion velocity when they were first released but the nano brigade whined very hard on the forums and CCP nerfed in down to its current pitiful state.
Then the inhabitants of Nanofag island got rigs. The speed explosion was immense and what was CCP's response to bring precision missiles back to the table? absolutely nothing. Heavy precisions have been broken for years but are lingering at the bottom of the priority list next to the medium and light webber drones which have still not been released after 2 years of existing only in the database.
Asleep at the wheel yet again CCP.
QFT, their to busy chasing new subscribers rather then trying to retain their existing ones.
In all sincerity and to stay away from dev bashing (since it's like shooting fish in a barrel around here), I sincerely hope that CCP stops messing around with this "new content" crap and fixes the long outstanding broken "features" of this game. ------------------------------------------------- **** You're out of your mind!
**** Well that's between me and my mind. |
Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.05.27 21:08:00 -
[27]
Quote: Where are the explosion radii you ask? Frankly, in the age of the MWD, these are irrelevant
This point deserves to be repeated. It's worth noting that this fact makes the missile precision bonus almost completely useless.
So the poor Nighthawk, already crippled by grossly inadequate powergrid and poor slot layout, has a useless bonus as well.
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.28 00:04:00 -
[28]
I have updated the OP to include Heavy Missile flight time issues. All new content is on the third OP page.
The gist: Add 2.25s to heavy precision flight time; even a return to their rightful velocity gives them insufficient range for a cruiser heavy missile (only ~2km better than a precision light missile at maximum skills; difference decreases below max skills).
If its any consolation, their precision bonus is the only thing right on these things it seems... Not that precision matters to this weapon tier anymore...
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.05.28 00:54:00 -
[29]
Numbers look good, but they don't suggest a change is needed. Sure precision heavy missiles blow. They can't catch nano-hacs. But precision light missies cannot catch interceptors and precision cruise missiles cannot catch nano-BS (well they can kinda catch nano BS, nano BS are kinda dead atm) The numbers you listed suggest balance across the board.
If you really want to dig deep into HML stats then you should also compare the DPS. HAMs and rockets sadly are outperformed by their long range brethern, while torpedoes are fantastic. This hodge-podge of balance has come about because HAMs are new in the eve universe, torps just got rebalanced and T2 ammo was nerfed a long time ago.
So no, I reject the opinion that T2 precisions should be >>> nano-ships (which I believe is what you are stating between the lines) Let's face it all T2 ammo (including turret ammo) needs to be looked at. As well as rockets and HAMs. As to how they should be balanced, I'd leave that up to the EVE devs.
Oh, and the original posts are nice and easy to read, cool beans.
Originally by: CCP Casqade Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.28 01:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vaal Erit Numbers look good, but they don't suggest a change is needed. Sure precision heavy missiles blow. They can't catch nano-hacs. But precision light missies cannot catch interceptors and precision cruise missiles cannot catch nano-BS (well they can kinda catch nano BS, nano BS are kinda dead atm) The numbers you listed suggest balance across the board.
If you really want to dig deep into HML stats then you should also compare the DPS. HAMs and rockets sadly are outperformed by their long range brethren, while torpedoes are fantastic. This hodge-podge of balance has come about because HAMs are new in the eve universe, torps just got rebalanced and T2 ammo was nerfed a long time ago.
So no, I reject the opinion that T2 precisions should be >>> nano-ships (which I believe is what you are stating between the lines) Let's face it all T2 ammo (including turret ammo) needs to be looked at. As well as rockets and HAMs. As to how they should be balanced, I'd leave that up to the EVE devs.
Oh, and the original posts are nice and easy to read, cool beans.
I'm going to have to vehemently disagree here. This post is specifically regarding broken stats on P-HMs, not missiles in general, not-T2. I have ideas on how to improve all of those, but this isn't the forum nor the thread for them.
If you truly understood the OP, you'd realize that precision heavy missiles are worse in every aspect than precision cruises. This is indefensible. The only reason they "can't catch" nano-HACs is that their rightful stats are gone.
Precision light's can catch Interceptors, so long as the interceptors are not pimped out (at which point, you need a specialist ship, not a HAC or BC, no matter which weapon used). It takes a decent chunk of time to put out a lethal amount of damage for these interceptors, but the ability is present.
Nor is my intention to destroy nano-ships. I specifically wrote this post in the Game Development forum so that this could get a lot of Sisi testing. I enjoy flying nano-ships as much as the next person; the inability for a cruiser-class missile user, no matter what they do, to ever impact a nano-HAC, is not fun. It is bad gameplay, it is broken gameplay.
Given that missile damage % imparted stays the same as you increase lineally in 500m/s increments from base, and given that precision lights versus interceptors are largely fine, I fail to see how this change would "break" Nano-HACs. These HACs have far more EHP, combat options, and DPS than an interceptor. If Precision Lights are a decent option versus Interceptors, and nano-HACs have say, 30 times more EHP, then the 45% DPS increase going from lights to heavies would, if anything, be underpowered, not over. This is especially true when the "meh" nature of HML DPS is taken into account, and that Precision Heavies have lower base damage compared to their T1 variants. I do not propose to tweak this maximum damage potential in any way.
My proposed stat changes conform to old precedents, are calculated with the ingame formula, and look to be a good starting point for widescale balance testing.
Thank you for taking the time for replying. I'm glad the OP was easy to read
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