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Keorythe Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.05.28 13:14:00 - [61] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Keorythe It takes multiple shots to drop someone with a 5.56x45. FALSE This was actually said about the 7.62x51 when it first replaced the .30'06. In actually the results were more often attributed to lousy marksmanship and hits to non-vital areas. Wound characteristics found by medical examiners during both Vietnam and Somalia showed devestating wounds in the chest and head areas. The largest urban legend to stem from this was the Mogudishu bullet kid. Everyone and their mom heard this rumor at some point in time or knows someone who thinks they saw it happen. There were accounts in some areas of conflict where it took multiple 5.56s to bring people down(they were hopped up on drugs and were basically invinsible against nonheadshot under 50cal rounds Oh? Care to give some names, dates, locations, etc of those accounts. Those kinds of rumors perpetuate themselves but are never actually documented. The 7.62x51 round kills people due to bleeding out or destruction of key nervous system areas (spine, brain). The 5.56x45 kills by the exact same function but does the bleed out part even better. Drugs don't make you live longer if you bleed out you just die. Being hit harder by the 7.62x51 does not cause more damage. The kinetic energy MIGHT knock you down or at very best stun you for a second or two depending on shot placement but the hole isn't going to get bigger than your thumb poking into some clay. Thats the sad hard truth. Yes the 7.62x51 kicks harder and yes we expect it to make fist sized holes but sadly it doesn't. No if you want something with decent penetration, good fragmentation, and medium range you might want to look at the new heavier Mk 262 77gr 5.56x45 round. Its being issued to Designated Marksmen and the reports coming back are really good. Its extra weight gives it better penetration and the ability to fragment at slower speeds. Since it uses the same cartrige the overall extra weight is negligible to most soldiers. Hollow points aren't going to do much for combat rounds. Hollow points were made to give a controlled expansion to maximize wound channel size instead of having to rely on boattail bullets tumbling. They are intended for single shot accuracy. For pistol rounds which do not tumble like rifle rounds they create a larger wound channel that the bullet would not normally make. However, like someone above mentioned they are banned by the Hague Convention. Heck they tried to ban the 5.56x45 under the Hague Convention when it first came out saying it was "too damaging" due to its unintended fragmentation which teetered on the edge of explosive bullets.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 14:47:00 - [62] Originally by: Keorythe Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Keorythe It takes multiple shots to drop someone with a 5.56x45. FALSE This was actually said about the 7.62x51 when it first replaced the .30'06. In actually the results were more often attributed to lousy marksmanship and hits to non-vital areas. Wound characteristics found by medical examiners during both Vietnam and Somalia showed devestating wounds in the chest and head areas. The largest urban legend to stem from this was the Mogudishu bullet kid. Everyone and their mom heard this rumor at some point in time or knows someone who thinks they saw it happen. There were accounts in some areas of conflict where it took multiple 5.56s to bring people down(they were hopped up on drugs and were basically invinsible against nonheadshot under 50cal rounds Oh? Care to give some names, dates, locations, etc of those accounts. Those kinds of rumors perpetuate themselves but are never actually documented. The 7.62x51 round kills people due to bleeding out or destruction of key nervous system areas (spine, brain). The 5.56x45 kills by the exact same function but does the bleed out part even better. Drugs don't make you live longer if you bleed out you just die. Being hit harder by the 7.62x51 does not cause more damage. The kinetic energy MIGHT knock you down or at very best stun you for a second or two depending on shot placement but the hole isn't going to get bigger than your thumb poking into some clay. Thats the sad hard truth. Yes the 7.62x51 kicks harder and yes we expect it to make fist sized holes but sadly it doesn't. No if you want something with decent penetration, good fragmentation, and medium range you might want to look at the new heavier Mk 262 77gr 5.56x45 round. Its being issued to Designated Marksmen and the reports coming back are really good. Its extra weight gives it better penetration and the ability to fragment at slower speeds. Since it uses the same cartrige the overall extra weight is negligible to most soldiers. Hollow points aren't going to do much for combat rounds. Hollow points were made to give a controlled expansion to maximize wound channel size instead of having to rely on boattail bullets tumbling. They are intended for single shot accuracy. For pistol rounds which do not tumble like rifle rounds they create a larger wound channel that the bullet would not normally make. However, like someone above mentioned they are banned by the Hague Convention. Heck they tried to ban the 5.56x45 under the Hague Convention when it first came out saying it was "too damaging" due to its unintended fragmentation which teetered on the edge of explosive bullets. Sadly I dont remember the exact dates etc, I know it was a conflict in the middle east and was recently(I saw it on the history channel). Your not getting the point, its not about pain or bleed out ability, its about knock down power, headshots, and bonecrushing force. The 5.56 is great for causing alot of pain and damage to organs, the 7.62 is great for knocking the enemy down or just outright destroying an organ so the guy dies sooner.
Micheal Dietrich Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:41:00 - [63] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Keorythe Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Keorythe It takes multiple shots to drop someone with a 5.56x45. FALSE This was actually said about the 7.62x51 when it first replaced the .30'06. In actually the results were more often attributed to lousy marksmanship and hits to non-vital areas. Wound characteristics found by medical examiners during both Vietnam and Somalia showed devestating wounds in the chest and head areas. The largest urban legend to stem from this was the Mogudishu bullet kid. Everyone and their mom heard this rumor at some point in time or knows someone who thinks they saw it happen. There were accounts in some areas of conflict where it took multiple 5.56s to bring people down(they were hopped up on drugs and were basically invinsible against nonheadshot under 50cal rounds Oh? Care to give some names, dates, locations, etc of those accounts. Those kinds of rumors perpetuate themselves but are never actually documented. The 7.62x51 round kills people due to bleeding out or destruction of key nervous system areas (spine, brain). The 5.56x45 kills by the exact same function but does the bleed out part even better. Drugs don't make you live longer if you bleed out you just die. Being hit harder by the 7.62x51 does not cause more damage. The kinetic energy MIGHT knock you down or at very best stun you for a second or two depending on shot placement but the hole isn't going to get bigger than your thumb poking into some clay. Thats the sad hard truth. Yes the 7.62x51 kicks harder and yes we expect it to make fist sized holes but sadly it doesn't. No if you want something with decent penetration, good fragmentation, and medium range you might want to look at the new heavier Mk 262 77gr 5.56x45 round. Its being issued to Designated Marksmen and the reports coming back are really good. Its extra weight gives it better penetration and the ability to fragment at slower speeds. Since it uses the same cartrige the overall extra weight is negligible to most soldiers. Hollow points aren't going to do much for combat rounds. Hollow points were made to give a controlled expansion to maximize wound channel size instead of having to rely on boattail bullets tumbling. They are intended for single shot accuracy. For pistol rounds which do not tumble like rifle rounds they create a larger wound channel that the bullet would not normally make. However, like someone above mentioned they are banned by the Hague Convention. Heck they tried to ban the 5.56x45 under the Hague Convention when it first came out saying it was "too damaging" due to its unintended fragmentation which teetered on the edge of explosive bullets. Sadly I dont remember the exact dates etc, I know it was a conflict in the middle east and was recently(I saw it on the history channel). Your not getting the point, its not about pain or bleed out ability, its about knock down power, headshots, and bonecrushing force. The 5.56 is great for causing alot of pain and damage to organs, the 7.62 is great for knocking the enemy down or just outright destroying an organ so the guy dies sooner. Somolia; mogadishu, somoli militiamen also known as drug soldiers. I can't remember the name of the plant but they chew on it in the middle of the day which causes rage and numbness.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:45:00 - [64] Thanks dietrich.
Haraldhardrade Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:51:00 - [65] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Draeca Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Why dont you nooby US soldiers aim for the head? I'm sure that would solve any issues over bullet size etc. But then I guess you Yanks ain't been to aim school, so my suggestion may just be too hard for you. Did you know that wounding your target is much more effective than just killing it? That way you will take some of his mates out of the game for a while, because they have to take him to a cover and give first aid etc. Or better yet, we can miss and scare him! I havent read if anyone replied to ypour post, but you are a complete and utter n00b. Wounding a man will cause the enemy more harm as it will cost time and most, logistics, to get him out of the battlefield and later on treat him. You fail at war. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Haraldhardrade Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:58:00 - [66] Now lets move on to 7.62 vs 5.56. I have no experience with 5.56 but I have years of experience with 7.62. 7.62 means a big and ******* heavy rifle. The 7.62 will punch through most(if not all) kevlar and helmets and is good at long range. If your helmet can stand the force of a 7.62 round then to bad because the impact will most likely break your neck. anyhow, there is a reason to why most countries eventually adopted 5.56, and thats because most fight on an average takes place between x and y meters. In terms of power and weight the 5.56 is just better. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Micheal Dietrich Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:09:00 - [67] My bolt action enfield takes a 7.62 and that thing fires like a cannon. My AK does the 7.62X39 if I remember correctly. currently got 1000 rounds sitting at the house for a weekend of fun.
Frezik Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Haraldhardrade I havent read if anyone replied to ypour post, but you are a complete and utter n00b. Wounding a man will cause the enemy more harm as it will cost time and most, logistics, to get him out of the battlefield and later on treat him. You fail at war. IIRC, using weapons that are designed to severely wound instead of kill is considered a war crime. Which was the original reasoning behind disallowing expanding bullets like hollow points.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:14:00 - [69] Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Draeca Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Why dont you nooby US soldiers aim for the head? I'm sure that would solve any issues over bullet size etc. But then I guess you Yanks ain't been to aim school, so my suggestion may just be too hard for you. Did you know that wounding your target is much more effective than just killing it? That way you will take some of his mates out of the game for a while, because they have to take him to a cover and give first aid etc. Or better yet, we can miss and scare him! I havent read if anyone replied to ypour post, but you are a complete and utter n00b. Wounding a man will cause the enemy more harm as it will cost time and most, logistics, to get him out of the battlefield and later on treat him. You fail at war. The people we fight actually use first aid? As for the best place to hit, the right answer 100% of the time is the nads.
Haraldhardrade Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:16:00 - [70] Originally by: Frezik IIRC, using weapons that are designed to severely wound instead of kill is considered a war crime. Which was the original reasoning behind disallowing expanding bullets like hollow points. Hollow points are created to cause as much damage as possible. Get hit by a hollow point and you will most likaly bleed to death. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Micheal Dietrich Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:20:00 - [71] Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: Frezik IIRC, using weapons that are designed to severely wound instead of kill is considered a war crime. Which was the original reasoning behind disallowing expanding bullets like hollow points. Hollow points are created to cause as much damage as possible. Get hit by a hollow point and you will most likaly bleed to death. Hollowpoints are banned currently for wartime situations. We already covered that.
Fink Angel The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:21:00 - [72] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Somolia; mogadishu, somoli militiamen also known as drug soldiers. I can't remember the name of the plant but they chew on it in the middle of the day which causes rage and numbness. "Khat" I believe.
Haraldhardrade Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:24:00 - [73] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Hollowpoints are banned currently for wartime situations. We already covered that. Just like cluster bombs....in most civilised countries. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Haraldhardrade Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:27:00 - [74] Edited by: Haraldhardrade on 28/05/2008 16:27:43 Originally by: goodby4u Unless your a sniper, youll probably get most of your kills by shooting through a wall in the direction of the enemy or whilst storming a building but I highly doubt you have the time to think"oh, im ganna go for a headshot!". The only time you have time for a headshot is during an ambush, or ofcorse as you say if you are a sniper. In most cases its just 'point and aim' as I belive its called in English. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Fink Angel The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:27:00 - [75] Whoever said "All is fair in love and war" obviously didn't write the Hague convention!
Micheal Dietrich Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:36:00 - [76] Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Hollowpoints are banned currently for wartime situations. We already covered that. Just like cluster bombs....in most civilised countries. Chemical clusters are currently banned. They're working on the others.
Fink Angel The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.05.28 17:01:00 - [77] Edited by: Fink Angel on 28/05/2008 17:01:40 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Chemical clusters are currently banned. They're working on the others. I was just browsing the BBC News website and this has just made the news today. A ban is possible by the end of the week. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7423714.stm
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 17:20:00 - [78] Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2008 17:28:28 Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2008 17:27:53 Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2008 17:21:01 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Hollowpoints are banned currently for wartime situations. We already covered that. Just like cluster bombs....in most civilised countries. Chemical clusters are currently banned. They're working on the others. Actually america doesnt fallow everything that its allies do... An example is the barrett .50 cal. The barrett .50 cal is banned from war because of its grain count(ie its an anti vehicle weapon thats used against soldiers sometimes)and we still use it in places like iraq.
Micheal Dietrich Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.05.28 17:32:00 - [79] Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2008 17:28:28 Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2008 17:27:53 Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2008 17:21:01 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Hollowpoints are banned currently for wartime situations. We already covered that. Just like cluster bombs....in most civilised countries. Chemical clusters are currently banned. They're working on the others. Actually america doesnt fallow everything that its allies do... An example is the barrett .50 cal. The barrett .50 cal is banned from war because of its grain count(ie its an anti vehicle weapon thats used against soldiers sometimes)and we still use it in places like iraq. yeah that's how I knew about the chemical clusters. US has banned those and are still in the process of destroying them (how long does it take? How many do we have?) and reading that article that Fink posted I saw that the UK is banning the other variants but we're holding onto ours.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 17:37:00 - [80] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2008 17:28:28 Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2008 17:27:53 Edited by: goodby4u on 28/05/2008 17:21:01 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Hollowpoints are banned currently for wartime situations. We already covered that. Just like cluster bombs....in most civilised countries. Chemical clusters are currently banned. They're working on the others. Actually america doesnt fallow everything that its allies do... An example is the barrett .50 cal. The barrett .50 cal is banned from war because of its grain count(ie its an anti vehicle weapon thats used against soldiers sometimes)and we still use it in places like iraq. yeah that's how I knew about the chemical clusters. US has banned those and are still in the process of destroying them (how long does it take? How many do we have?) and reading that article that Fink posted I saw that the UK is banning the other variants but we're holding onto ours. Yes agreed, oh and im not sure how long it takes to destroy a chemical weapon but it is definately ALOT long then it takes to do the same to a conventional one.
Arron S Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.05.28 20:26:00 - [81] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny The most effective way to kill someone is to hit them in the chest with a 120mm Sabot fired from an M1A1 Abrams 120mm. Yeah. Sabot. Nah Video of M1028 120mm Canister Also HEAT Rounds fired from the L55 Connon kills stuff good.or the HESH Round fire from a 105mm Cannon works good too. Canadian army is using Canaister arounds on their Leopard 2's in Afganistan
Nomakai Delateriel Shadow Company Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.05.28 20:54:00 - [82] Originally by: Arron S Also HEAT Rounds fired from the L55 Connon kills stuff good.or the HESH Round fire from a 105mm Cannon works good too. Canadian army is using Canaister arounds on their Leopard 2's in Afganistan HEAT isn't all that good at taking down infantry outside armored vehicles, and HESH works pretty well against buildings but not in the open (but HESH needs a rifled barrel. Which kind of sucks because HEAT rounds don't like that). HEDP usually works well , but I hear that the problem that they've had is that the HEDP round has problems with the urban terrain in Iraq because it doesn't detonate properly on impact (but instead crashing through multiple buildings before detonating). Thus the Canister round, aka the 120mm shotgun (that can still bust through pretty thick concrete. Kind of like a long range claymore mine on steroids). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Fink Angel The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.05.28 21:31:00 - [83] I understand the "Dora / Schwerer Gustav" fires a calibre round that penetrates most body armour. Yeah, an 800mm calibre should just about do it! "They weighed nearly 1,344 tons, and could fire a shell that weighed more than 7 tons at distances up to 37 km (23 miles)"
Bakkus Anonymous Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.28 22:04:00 - [84] Edited by: Bakkus on 28/05/2008 22:08:52 Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Draeca Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Why dont you nooby US soldiers aim for the head? I'm sure that would solve any issues over bullet size etc. But then I guess you Yanks ain't been to aim school, so my suggestion may just be too hard for you. Did you know that wounding your target is much more effective than just killing it? That way you will take some of his mates out of the game for a while, because they have to take him to a cover and give first aid etc. Or better yet, we can miss and scare him! I havent read if anyone replied to ypour post, but you are a complete and utter n00b. Wounding a man will cause the enemy more harm as it will cost time and most, logistics, to get him out of the battlefield and later on treat him. You fail at war. ur an idiot, wounded enemy are still dangerous. If you are in a situation where you have the luxury of actually aiming you always shoot to kill Snip, Signatures should be respectful and EVE related.
Bakkus Anonymous Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.28 22:24:00 - [85] Been quite a while since i was in military (and all our kit was pretty old and crappy tbh)so i never really got to use any of the funky new systems that are around now. I have seen a documentary showing this sniper system and i must admit i found myself grinning Snip, Signatures should be respectful and EVE related.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 23:17:00 - [86] Originally by: Bakkus Been quite a while since i was in military (and all our kit was pretty old and crappy tbh)so i never really got to use any of the funky new systems that are around now. I have seen a documentary showing this sniper system and i must admit i found myself grinning Not bad, its light and has the same range as an m82....I guess the tradeoff as it seems is lack of anti vehicle capability. Nice weapon.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.05.28 23:24:00 - [87] With the amount of friendly fire going on there's a strange logic in the rounds not being too lethal. Let's not argue about who shot up who. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 23:26:00 - [88] Originally by: Wendat Huron With the amount of friendly fire going on there's a strange logic in the rounds not being too lethal. Let's not argue about who shot up who. ??? This has to do with this thread how?
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.05.28 23:30:00 - [89] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron With the amount of friendly fire going on there's a strange logic in the rounds not being too lethal. Let's not argue about who shot up who. ??? This has to do with this thread how? If you check and read the article beyond the link of the OP you might have a clue. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 23:35:00 - [90] Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron With the amount of friendly fire going on there's a strange logic in the rounds not being too lethal. Let's not argue about who shot up who. ??? This has to do with this thread how? If you check and read the article beyond the link of the OP you might have a clue. I did, its a guy saying the m14 is more lethal then the m16... What does this have to do with friendly fire?

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