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Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:08:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Admiral Pelleon on 02/06/2008 00:08:30
 Originally by: Narkie
Edited by: Narkie on 01/06/2008 21:10:42
Originally by: Riho
and the point is ?
whats wrong whit 1k dps ravens ??
gallente have 1k dps megathron (no tank)
amarr have 1k dps abaddon and geddon (no tank)
minni have 1k dps (very hard to achive but still) phoon (no tank)
so why cant caldari have 1k dps ship(Massive tank + more range)
There I fixed your post, maybe you can see my point now?
My point is the other ships have to sacrifice something to get that much dps why should the raven be excluded?
The raven can't gank, tank, and tackle. Are we seriously having this discussion?
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Originally by: Tarminic
I believe your mother should have re-rolled her birth control.
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Kay Rissa
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:22:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Narkie
Originally by: Sokratesz
Raven has other problems like generally handling like a towtruck, slow acceleration, slow lock and no grid to fit both MWD and heavy injector.
Raven & Mwd? What insanity is this you don't need a mwd acceleration or anything. Most engangments don't happen outside of 30kms which is torp range now.
You are another whining ***** who doesnt have a clue how to fit or fly a ship. It is just pointless to argue with ppl like you about anything.
To pvp solo you need mwd, web, disruptor, this leaves NO TANK at all on a raven, with probably 50k hp and XL booster. You get poped by any decent Bs pilot, because any armor BS with plates would have 150k+ hp.
Without tackling and mwd you can have a tank, of what, 500 DPS tank, this is useless, because you need a buffer tank to survive.
P.S. why the hell am I talking to another useless whiner !
Proud member of RTSQ
ps: i dont like to kill innocent ppl, so if i killed u, u rnt innocent
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Dreadpilot Roberts
Corp 1 Allstars
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:31:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Narkie
When are people going to stop being foolish and realize the torp buff for what it is! a buff.... The torp buff makes ravens overpowered imo. 1000dps raven with solid tank anyone?
You sir are made of FAIL 
Raven as is still has serious grid and CPU problems when fitting torps. Try and fit t2 tank no tackle 3 dmg mods and HEAVY NEUT ? That's right ... you cant. so stfu.
I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ? |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:42:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2008 00:44:44
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2008 00:41:54
Originally by: Narkie
Originally by: Sokratesz
Raven has other problems like generally handling like a towtruck, slow acceleration, slow lock and no grid to fit both MWD and heavy injector.
Raven & Mwd? What insanity is this you don't need a mwd acceleration or anything. Most engangments don't happen outside of 30kms which is torp range now.
1. you have no clue
2. you have no clue
3. read 1 and 2
MWD is life - thats a fact. No MWD = you die before you can reapproach gate.
Secundo - are you showing off with PvE raven? Because i dont see scrambler there. So doesnt matter what you do - your target will always either kill you or just warp out.
And like Sok stated before: torp raven has hard time to fit 1000dps + good active tank. Actually its EXACTLY same as with other battleships. Where raven suffers from lack of mids (needs 2 mids for MWD+scram) other ships suffer from lack of lows (most of the time to reach 1k+ dps you need to use 3x damage mod = not enough space to fit decent active tank).
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2008.06.02 00:58:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 02/06/2008 00:58:10
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Not if you're using hail, you lose EVEN MORE cap recharge.
Lose more cap recharge than what, exactly? Also, your guns don't take cap to fire, and your shield booster will be fed cap by a cap injector. Cap recharge is NOT a factor.
Quote:
You're easily outdone at that range anyway by a thron, hyperion.
Yes and no - it depends on the setup. If the 'thron or hyperion is toting electrons you can tank it until you run out of cap booster charges (which will take over three minutesm and your opponent will be long dead by then). If it's got ions, it comes down to exact setups. If it's got neutrons, you back the hell off and switch to barrage, since a plated blasterthron is slower than even a maelstrom.
Quote:
Plus, if you actually get to 3KM, it sounds more like a gank than a fight.
Not really. It's not hard to get to 3km at all when you're fighting BCs and BS, especially with a web.
Quote:
Anyway, hail isn't used in theoretical DPS numbers for the same reason void isn't. It's not practical against all targets except battleships.
And battlecruisers. It melts those just fine, too. Again, a web is your friend.
Quote:
And, at 3km, if you're (lets just say) fighting another BS with big DPS numbers as well, you're going to be roasted alive. Your XL wont be able to keep up nearly as long as it needs to chew through your target.
Again, it comes down to exact ships and setups. In some cases this will be true, but not in others - just like with any other ship or setup.
-Wrayeth
n00b Extraordinaire
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
AstroPhobic
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Posted - 2008.06.02 01:19:00 -
[36]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 02/06/2008 01:19:24
Honestly, if a thron or hyperion IS toting electrons, they deserve to be pummeled into oblivion. Chances are likely that if you're within web range of said target - you're going to be webbed as well, which pretty much throws 3km out the window. Other classes have momentum to carry them inwards, but at the battleship class you'll be lucky to even get in range.
PS: There's no "backing off" once you're at 3km, or realized that the mega will outDPS you. You pretty much just die.
edit: word salad
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AKULA UrQuan
Druuge Crimson Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.02 02:34:00 -
[37]
Not very relavent when 5x heavy ECM drones pretty much forks over minni battleships anyway with a 39% jam chance. ECCM is the counter but that leaves you with a one slot tank after MWD, web, scram and injector.
Far as a torp raven being some sort of pwnmobile. It isn't. Amarr/Gallente short range fits can outlast a torp raven. At least now the torp raven isn't hopless.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.02 02:49:00 -
[38]
The Maelstorm is a gang ship imo. Fitting full tackle plus MWD cripples its tank far far too much.
Caldari ships in general just don't fare that well vs plated armour tanks sporting high DPS setups, but are fairly awesome in gangs. The Maelstorm is essentially a Caldari ship with ACs and a gimped sensor str 
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Oktacon
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Posted - 2008.06.02 02:58:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Oktacon on 02/06/2008 03:01:40
Edited by: Oktacon on 02/06/2008 02:59:38
The fail in this topic is strong.
Any competent PVP'er who doesn't have billions of isk to buy implants for implants should be using a buffer Raven for PVP.
6x Siege
3x Extender
2x Invul
1x MWD
3x BCS
1X PDU
1x DCU
3x CDFE
This should be the standard fit for a PVP raven. Sure it can't point, but thats what you have gang mates for.
A nice 30.6k shields to act as a buffer. It passively regens too, and every bit helps.
With my skills, I get a respectable 906 DPS,with 126k Effective. If you dont think you need a MWD, which I highly doubt, you can push that value to 145k effective.
I think its impossible to fit for 1k DPS on a Raven without drones. I use EW drones, so its impossible for me anyway.
Active Raven fails. It has absolutely not enough CPU to pull off a full T2 Active tank.
And yes, with a Rifter/Crow acting as tackler, I HAVE killed plated Blasterthrons and other plate ships. It gets very close sometimes, but the Raven can be a great ship
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Wideen
Contraband Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.02 06:01:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Narkie
Edited by: Narkie on 01/06/2008 21:10:42
Originally by: Riho
and the point is ?
whats wrong whit 1k dps ravens ??
gallente have 1k dps megathron (no tank)
amarr have 1k dps abaddon and geddon (no tank)
minni have 1k dps (very hard to achive but still) phoon (no tank)
so why cant caldari have 1k dps ship(Massive tank + more range)
There I fixed your post, maybe you can see my point now?
My point is the other ships have to sacrifice something to get that much dps why should the raven be excluded?
You can achieve 1k dps on the phoon with a plated tank - which I might add is also required on the rest of the 1k dps ships that were mentioned!
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Dragy
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.06.02 06:12:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Arana Tellen
Originally by: Dragy
Edited by: Dragy on 01/06/2008 22:35:06
Originally by: Arana Tellen
After plates the raven will be much faster/agile than any mega/abba
still doesn't matter, when passive armor tanks outperform active shield tank when the raven pilot can't fit an injector.
edit: also don't forget that if you want to have a raven with max dps, you need to fit 1 TP which criples your mids, tank,cpu or 5 med TP drones. Also everyone's forgetting that raven has only 75m3 of dronebay and unlike geddon or mega, it can deploy only 3 heavy drones which limitates its dps, aye ?
I will protect the very name of raven until i die !
It matters when you can get out of blaster range and their damage is 0 while the torps still hit.
you see ... it doesn't. there's no real difference between 125m/s and 145. When you're webbed with this speed with no mwd, you can't run anywhere. Also remmeber that raven can NEVER fit a mwd.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.02 09:11:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Dragy
you see ... it doesn't. there's no real difference between 125m/s and 145. When you're webbed with this speed with no mwd, you can't run anywhere. Also remmeber that raven can NEVER fit a mwd.
Threads contains at least one good Raven setup with MWD (no tackle, but that's now it goes with gang PvP ships), three posts above or so.
Of course, the comment about blasters not hitting is overly exaggerated. Null L hits just fine when fired from Neutrons (or even Ions), just for (noticeably) reduced DPS.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.06.02 09:44:00 -
[43]
Hail is sucker ammo. RF Fusion will be just as good dps wise and will have far better range and tracking. It is because RF Fusion deals more exp than kin so when you take into account resistances, RF Fusion is always better.
Torps are not overpowered, I would say they are balanced. In my typhoon, rage torps with a painter absolutely wtfpwn an enemy BS, but vs a BC or lower, my guns will do more dps than my torps. So ya, torps do tons of damage vs BS and reduced vs all other targets unlike guns who can pretty much hit anything that it has 90% webbed.
I just wish HAMs and rockets were balanced as torps are.
Originally by: CCP Casqade
Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.02 09:50:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/06/2008 09:50:36
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Torps are not overpowered, I would say they are balanced. In my typhoon, rage torps with a painter absolutely wtfpwn an enemy BS, but vs a BC or lower, my guns will do more dps than my torps.
Yeah, I nearly soloed a torp Raven once in my Wolf.
Then he got a Falcon friend and a Blaster Mega from the next system, and blaster gank megas don't have any issues hitting anything even with neutrons as long as target is webbed.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
GHO57
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Posted - 2008.06.02 10:41:00 -
[45]
Raven still sux, really. Just fit scrambler, MWD and web and tell me where's your tank.
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Dragy
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:04:00 -
[46]
Originally by: GHO57
Raven still sux, really. Just fit scrambler, MWD and web and tell me where's your tank.
that's why raven pilots should never go alone, only with tackler in for ex rifter, that's the only option.
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Dragy
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:06:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Dragy
you see ... it doesn't. there's no real difference between 125m/s and 145. When you're webbed with this speed with no mwd, you can't run anywhere. Also remmeber that raven can NEVER fit a mwd.
Threads contains at least one good Raven setup with MWD (no tackle, but that's now it goes with gang PvP ships), three posts above or so.
Of course, the comment about blasters not hitting is overly exaggerated. Null L hits just fine when fired from Neutrons (or even Ions), just for (noticeably) reduced DPS.
i can't believe that this setup can be good, never. Need to try it though.
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Kagura Nikon
Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:31:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Narkie
Edited by: Narkie on 01/06/2008 21:10:42
Originally by: Riho
and the point is ?
whats wrong whit 1k dps ravens ??
gallente have 1k dps megathron (no tank)
amarr have 1k dps abaddon and geddon (no tank)
minni have 1k dps (very hard to achive but still) phoon (no tank)
so why cant caldari have 1k dps ship(Massive tank + more range)
There I fixed your post, maybe you can see my point now?
My point is the other ships have to sacrifice something to get that much dps why should the raven be excluded?
you fail at even thinking before posting:
Typhoon 4xdual650mmII 4x Siege II (best ammo ofc)
1 DC II Thermal/Exp/Kin T2 hardeners 2 rt 1600 1 BCU II
5 ogre II
>1000 dps and a HUGE tank
Armageddon 7x MP II best ammo
3 HS II FFA Adap nano Memb II EANM II 3 RT1600
>>> 1000 dps huge tank...
etc...
The only true advantage raven has is its range. BUt this is partially compensated by the fact that raven dps is only achievable against BIG battleships
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Kagura Nikon
Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:33:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts
Originally by: Narkie
When are people going to stop being foolish and realize the torp buff for what it is! a buff.... The torp buff makes ravens overpowered imo. 1000dps raven with solid tank anyone?
You sir are made of FAIL
Raven as is still has serious grid and CPU problems when fitting torps. Try and fit t2 tank no tackle 3 dmg mods and HEAVY NEUT ? That's right ... you cant. so stfu.
I would also like to ask you to fit T2 decent tank 3 damage mods and heavy neut in a Tempest..... so stop complainign like fittign issues were a problem of a single ship. I think every ship bar the maelstrom has fitting issues.
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Hanneshannes
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:52:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Hanneshannes on 02/06/2008 11:53:38
Edited by: Hanneshannes on 02/06/2008 11:53:26
Originally by: Narkie
Edited by: Narkie on 01/06/2008 21:10:42
Originally by: Riho
and the point is ?
whats wrong whit 1k dps ravens ??
gallente have 1k dps megathron (no tank)
amarr have 1k dps abaddon and geddon (no tank)
minni have 1k dps (very hard to achive but still) phoon (no tank)
so why cant caldari have 1k dps ship(Massive tank + more range)
There I fixed your post, maybe you can see my point now?
My point is the other ships have to sacrifice something to get that much dps why should the raven be excluded?
It's slow as ****, it's damage is delayed? If you put an MWD on there it's still pretty slow and loses a ton of tank.
-E- And it can only put out massive damage against BC/BS sized targets.
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Damares
The Devils Brigade
The Threshold
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Posted - 2008.06.02 12:46:00 -
[51]
love torp raven now, it used to suck ass, wondered why i ever trained caldari BS 5 and torps 5 and what not, now, jeez, what a machine. the problem though is definaetly tackle, if you fit a tackle your tank is gimped. ive been trying fits without cap injectors recently but i think i might go back. but yeh, 1000 dps at 30km is imba, but id put my money on a 1000dps mega with plates and trimarks any day.
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.06.02 12:58:00 -
[52]
When torps got boosted, there were a lot of comments along the lines of "ohnoes blasterthron is obsolete" and "torps are massively overpowered".
Well, torps are certainly powerful, but a weapon system is only as good as the ship that it's fitted to. And although the Raven is a fine BS, its drawbacks - difficulty of fitting, shield-tanking when everyone carries remote armour reps, unremarkable tank even when buffer-fit, relatively less effective against smaller targets - keep it well balanced.
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Oktacon
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Posted - 2008.06.02 22:30:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dragy
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Dragy
you see ... it doesn't. there's no real difference between 125m/s and 145. When you're webbed with this speed with no mwd, you can't run anywhere. Also remmeber that raven can NEVER fit a mwd.
Threads contains at least one good Raven setup with MWD (no tackle, but that's now it goes with gang PvP ships), three posts above or so.
Of course, the comment about blasters not hitting is overly exaggerated. Null L hits just fine when fired from Neutrons (or even Ions), just for (noticeably) reduced DPS.
i can't believe that this setup can be good, never. Need to try it though.
Exactly why would this setup not work? Its worked fine for me in plenty of engagements
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Sitthh
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Posted - 2008.06.02 23:00:00 -
[54]
2 words, flighttime, or more like 2 words transformed into 1 word thingy. Anyway get out.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.02 23:19:00 -
[55]
A Raven and a Mega aren't so disparate a match. Each has reasons to fly over the other.
That sound pretty balanced to me.
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Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Zaethiel
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.06.02 23:23:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Narkie
Edited by: Narkie on 01/06/2008 21:10:42
Originally by: Riho
and the point is ?
whats wrong whit 1k dps ravens ??
gallente have 1k dps megathron (no tank)
amarr have 1k dps abaddon and geddon (no tank)
minni have 1k dps (very hard to achive but still) phoon (no tank)
so why cant caldari have 1k dps ship(Massive tank + more range)
There I fixed your post, maybe you can see my point now?
My point is the other ships have to sacrifice something to get that much dps why should the raven be excluded?
raven still sacrifices fitting for PvP since it shield tanks. Its the worst solo BS but its not bad in gangs, though most gangs with RR will fit armor reps so shield tankers are left out.
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Devils Sin
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Posted - 2008.06.03 02:04:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Devils Sin on 03/06/2008 02:05:25
Has anyone in here been in 0.0? Seriously this thread has to be a joke. I pilot a raven with full out level 5s and spec 4s and this has to be a joke. 0.0 is nothing but nano and capital blobs. Would love to see a raven pull its weight in a nano gang. Seriously get in one and try to kill a nano ishtar. How about a vaga?
torp raven has limited scenerios where it better then some other battleship in the same scenerio. Todays nano age is not one of them.
And one other thing mwd is a must. Dont care what tank you give up to fit it, if you dont your useless.
Raven has been in the world of pve so long people expect it to suck every fight. Get use to the fact there are some fits and scenerios that it will win now. Does not make it overpowerd. Makes it balanced.
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AnKahn
Hunters Agency
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.06.03 06:10:00 -
[58]
If you are Caldari you solo only if uber and like playing hard mode. I'm sure there are many such pilots and they have impressive kill mails. But generally Caldari ships belong in a fleet. At least with torps now the Raven is no joke in PvP and as such might be primaried.
The current forum wisdom is buffer tank over active tank. Generally active tanks are PvE.
I think buffer shield and buffer armor tanks are comparable. But because guns are favored over missiles and guns usually come with armor, remote repping favors armor (in terms of numbers in a gang).
I think when you are talking about T1 BS I think it is helpful if you cross train that way you can give your FC a choice as to which ship you bring. This thread makes it sound as if all PvP in EvE is 1 vs 1 and characters are limited to only one race's ships.
That said, if your corp is rolling out with a heavy BS gang and has enough members who can fly Ravens and can spider tank, at least now with the torp changes noone will laugh.
But the Raven is not even close to being overpowered. Instead it is a one trick pony.
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.03 06:50:00 -
[59]
Originally by: James Lyrus
A Raven and a Mega aren't so disparate a match. Each has reasons to fly over the other.
That sound pretty balanced to me.
Ok, I'll bite. What are the reasons to fly a close-range Mega if you can fly a Raven?
Nanoships? No, neither is going to do anything to those.
Cruisers in web range? Raven can kill those reasonably fast. Mega can kill them faster, yeah - unless one of the enemy has a tracking disruptor. (If they don't, they're idiots.)
Double-webbed frigates? Admittedly, here Mega really shines compared to Raven. I wouldn't pick a ship to fly because of this ability, though... And Raven will manage in the end - it has the two free high slots for small or med guns / neuts / other extras.
Delayed damage? Please. Moving the big brick that is a Megathron to effective range takes a whole lot more time than the torpedoes take to fly that same range. Not to mention that Raven is just as agile as an unplated Mega, never mind the plated/rigged one.
Add immunity to TDs, capless weapons, more base HPs, the option that gangmates can fit damage mods for you (TPs), and the result is that there is currently just no reason to fly a B-thron. Raven is just better. (Armageddon is better for gangs, too, and solo Megathron is just a killmail waiting to happen, but that's something for another time.)
And yes, I'm happily flying a Raven nowadays in PvP, week-and-a-half left until Caldari BS V. So I'm not worried about my ability to fight, but balanced the new torps are not.
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Gradient forum |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.06.03 08:38:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: James Lyrus
A Raven and a Mega aren't so disparate a match. Each has reasons to fly over the other.
That sound pretty balanced to me.
Ok, I'll bite. What are the reasons to fly a close-range Mega if you can fly a Raven?
Nanoships? No, neither is going to do anything to those.
Quote:
The Mega is far better suited to the task of bringing down nano ships and is indeed the SECOND most promising battleship for the task.
It comes down to the nature of a speed tank - angular velocity is required to evade gun fire, pure speed is all that's required to negate missiles. Of the two Raven weapon systems only the cruise missile will even deliver damage to the target - and you're looking at single digits with excellent skills.
The mega on the other hand gets a tracking bonus to it's guns and blasters are actually fairly fast tracking. While it may be heresy to mention this, using ammo OTHER than void or AM means you can actually sling a blaster shot out to your standard nano orbit range. Proper fitting can yield a turret that can pretty handily track even a farily fast moving nano ship (5.5km/s), delivering hits more than 60% of the time. You don't have to do the math to know that that's a fair amount of damage to deliver on a virtually untaked nano ship.
More importantly, a more standard anti - nano design of a remote repping gang will certainly work better with the Mega than the Raven. Afterall, it doesn't matter how long the raven is kept alive in the scenario - it's not doing anything to advance the goal of the remote repping anti-nano gang given it's completely incapable of delivering damage on target.
But there are LOTS of reasons why you'd want to use a Mega over a Raven. For example you could be a highly skilled gallente spec pilot - why take a jaunt down a completely different path (missiles versus guns, a new line of ships, shield tanking skill) on the off chance that the Raven possess a slim tactical advantage? At the end of the day the ships are entirely balanced - the outcome of the battle relies entirely on a key factor: how long the raven can stay outside blaster range. It the mega closes the gap quickly the battle favors teh mega. If the raven keeps it's range for several volleys the battle favors the Raven.
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