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YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.06.03 07:39:00 - [31] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 03/06/2008 07:41:30 Originally by: Ming Daizong Originally by: YouGotRipped Neither do I with my trading char. But I gang up with him when it comes to splitting the rewards. I never thought of that. They have to be in the same system though, correct? The secondary market has been through some troublesome times and I really want to believe that what you've said so far is true. But you have to show some cooperation yourself and provide that API key. No one besides the auditor will know who your main is or what you trade in as the reports feature generic info. Motherships
Meg Powers	Posted - 2008.06.03 08:39:00 - [32] Edited by: Meg Powers on 03/06/2008 08:40:03 Interesting discussion thread, while I wish you very well Ming, I would be happier with an API verification by trusted body. As you seem so averse to this there are other security methods available: Offset deposits with 3rd party (E-bank springs to mind) Revealing mains identities on default of isk. You can change your api once verification takes place should you wish to. These are ideas for your perusal and, like I mentioned above, they would make me happier: happy to the point of investing that is. You have an idea however and I can appreciate you not wanting to lose any market advantage in sharing that, nothing new here, good on you. But come with me while I try to zoom out a little and try to paint a summary of this thread: MD: New bond upcoming (insert bond details) I want to build up confidence from investors for my BIG PLAN, this is just a taster bond issue to whet your appetites and build trust. PPL in this thread: Hmmmn, interesting, but some API related security would make us feel more secure about our investment. MD: No, I don't want to lose any market edge so I won't do what I've been told (and must have read on these boards) will significantly improve investor confidence and likelihood of investment. But I DO want you to invest and build confidence in me. Summary: You seem to be doing a my-way or the highway style bond, now I've nothing against that approach, so go you. But from my pov, I'll walk the highway and wait for a cab thanks.
Ming Daizong Mithraeum	Posted - 2008.06.03 08:51:00 - [33] Fair enough, Meg. I understand where you, and others, are coming from, much as I'm sure you understand my position. Its a bit of a tightrope and while I apologize for not bending over backwards in the interest of potential investors, I hope that there are those out there who at least respect me as a principled businessperson.
Roguehalo RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2008.06.03 08:57:00 - [34] Originally by: Ming Daizong Fair enough, Meg. I understand where you, and others, are coming from, much as I'm sure you understand my position. Its a bit of a tightrope and while I apologize for not bending over backwards in the interest of potential investors, I hope that there are those out there who at least respect me as a principled businessperson. That's the big problem Ming. We don't actually KNOW you are a business person Sure you've told us that you are
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.06.03 09:37:00 - [35] Yeh I also do off-world missions out at Cheyenne mountain. Hopefully this documented evidence will ensure NASA hires me some time this week
Maestro Del'Tirith	Posted - 2008.06.03 10:41:00 - [36] IMO its a bond...its like a loan...10% per month...well, I believe a good mission-doer could gather that. Not overly hung up on how you are making money, which is why I don't care about the API key...the risk sounds rather high, however if you really do have connections as you say then capitalizing on them might be quite profitable. My personal feeling is that there is a lot of risk here - you might run off with my money - if you don't, you might get whacked with a lot of cargo or wardecced and whacked over and over, thereby my principle disappears into nowhere And the benefit is - 10% per month I've got a Plato fund holding where my principle has almost no risk (inside station trading) though the person could still walk off with my money...so risk #1 applies but risk #2 does not. They are giving me a return of almost 15% per week paid out to my wallet...heck of a lot better than 10% per month. I can't speak for anybody else, but personally where I stand right now (and granted, I don't have a lot of capital, so take with a grain of salt...I'm probably only talking 100mil here) is that there is a lot on the risk side and not a lot on the reward compared to other investments. I'd be interested in an IPO probably, so I could feel like I was part of a business I otherwise wouldn't be able to be in and had a chance at real upshot wins...but not a bond at 10% per month. The extra 7% vs. E-Bank doesn't really give me the motivation.
Roguehalo RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2008.06.03 10:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith stuff You are kind of missing the point here. The 1st thing you need to decide with any new offer is whether it is a scam or not. Once you've made that decision then you can move on to consider the risks etc. In view of the ops adamant refusal to give ANY kind of hard info I'm inclined to think that this is a scam. Short term scam? Long term scam? who knows and who cares?
Maestro Del'Tirith	Posted - 2008.06.03 10:56:00 - [38] Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 03/06/2008 11:00:27 Originally by: Roguehalo The 1st thing you need to decide with any new offer is whether it is a scam or not. Not missing that point :) I think where we differ in opinion is whether we believe an API audit would prove a single thing. One month from now, if I had not posted my newbie trader blog, I could have the skills trained and the trading history easily in hand enough to pass an API audit...I could then walk away with all your money. I think the scam/not scam is not really verifiable by API audit, because it is too easy to just spend a week trading some junk and equally easy to get the necessary skills trained. Don't think anything outside of 'feeling' and discussion can tell me scam or not scam, and that includes an API audit...it isn't, to my mind, a risk I can mitigate by the audit...so I don't really care whether an audit happens or not. That said - I will agree that it would protect against a very lazy scammer. So I see your point of argument...it at least sets a minimal low bar of effort. Perhaps you are right...in either way I stand my ground that right now it doesn't look worthwhile.
Ming Daizong Mithraeum	Posted - 2008.06.03 10:57:00 - [39] Edited by: Ming Daizong on 03/06/2008 11:01:41 Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith My personal feeling is that there is a lot of risk here - you might run off with my money - if you don't, you might get whacked with a lot of cargo or wardecced and whacked over and over, thereby my principle disappears into nowhere Your concerns are valid and are honestly the same concerns I would have. I can't do any more than assure you I will not run off with your money. The risk is there for that in nearly every IPO. I understand that this is a gamble for investors, which is why I have done everything I can to minimize risk outside of the scam worries. As for the wardec concern, my hauleralt is in an NPC corp. This character is my "main" with which I do most of my trading (sitting safely inside a station) and it also serves as my public face for diplomacy and trade agreements (Which are quite necessary when operating outside of high sec). This character also pilots the blockade runner which I use to transport goods in low sec (due to standings).
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.06.03 13:00:00 - [40] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 03/06/2008 13:02:55 Originally by: Ming Daizong Edited by: Ming Daizong on 03/06/2008 11:16:42 Edited by: Ming Daizong on 03/06/2008 11:16:15 Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith My personal feeling is that there is a lot of risk here - you might run off with my money - if you don't, you might get whacked with a lot of cargo or wardecced and whacked over and over, thereby my principle disappears into nowhere Your concerns are valid and are honestly the same concerns I would have. I can't do any more than assure you I will not run off with your money. The risk is there for that in nearly every IPO. I understand that this is a gamble for investors, which is why I have done everything I can to minimize risk outside of the scam worries. As for the wardec concern, my hauleralt is in an NPC corp. This character is my "main" with which I do most of my trading (sitting safely inside a station) and it also serves as my public face for diplomacy and trade agreements (Which are quite necessary when operating outside of high sec). This character also pilots the blockade runner which I use to transport goods in low sec (due to standings). As much as I hate to give an overview of my operation... I have multiple immobile trade alts where necessary. One hauler alt with no trade skills which moves goods in high sec. This character, which aside from trading, moves the goods from my high sec transport hub (One jump outside of low sec) into low sec to their destination(s). And finally, multiple scout alts (Which also can pilot industrials as necessary) All characters except for this one are in NPC corps (Which leads to the loss of the occasional Ibis). I have three accounts total, which allows me to have various combinations of transport characters, scouts, and trade characters running at once. I like to think that I have my transportation procedures down rather well, even if the extra precautions I take require a bit more of my time and effort. I may need to change how things are done in the interest of security should this Bond make this character a target, come to think of it. I'll have to sleep on it but I might just spend a few days to get one of the scouting alts into transport ships and have that character take this one's place in the logistics chain. Wow, what you've just described must be taking a lot of your time. So much time and dedication that your main should be a trader (and not a PVPer that you're trying to cover) so why not provide that API key? This is ridiculous, I will not waste my time with this thread any longer. Motherships
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.06.03 13:14:00 - [41] Tell me your main's name ingame and convo me with your main to verify. We then have a verbal agreement in the event of scam or a certain period of inactivity your main's name is posted and made known to the public. The only reasons you wouldn't agree to this : 1) You think I may be able to use your main's name to my advantage - Frankly I wouldn't be bothered. The only reason I am offering this is because the constant yes/no back forth is giving me a headache and I do agree that an API audit gives a very limited indication of prior business history. It should span far further back imo and something I would like to see LV try and address at the CSM thingo. Anyway, I have no reason whatsoever to bother fielding your main's name in public unless you leave me no choice via a scam. I have far bigger things to deal with and your paltry few billion isk requested here is hardly worth my time to write this post 2) You are planning a scam. There's no way you would give up your main's name as it would thwart your plan. So now you have to make a choice. YouGotRipped and myself probably spend 99% of the time trying to headbutt each other however I completely agree with his posts in this thread. The ball is in your court Ming. Want our trust? You better put something up as collateral (be it a name, an API key, securities, etc)
Kazuo Ishiguro Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.03 14:55:00 - [42] Originally by: Ming Daizong Investors in this forum have been attempting to establish this as of late. I, and I presume other businessmen, don't particularly like this practice. And if taking a stand against it martyrs me, so be it. Businessmen have rights as much as the investor does. I think there are enough investors who understand or support my position that I can be successful without fueling the API key crazy and, perhaps in doing so, fuel the winds of change. The problem is, every so often, someone very well-spoken but without any references or backup plans secures funds and disappears. That sort of thing takes a long time to fade, especially in the minds of people who pride themselves on their business acumen, and especially when they lose rather a lot of isk. People's hearts and minds have hardened, despite the vast quantities of public capital available (to the point where EBANK now has 600bn of deposits liable for just 2.5%/month mainly because of its reputation as a safe haven). I've invested in a great deal of different schemes, but I'm not that good. After allowing for losses to Riethe, PSI, FRPB (just about even after dividends - Kwint kindly bought me out) & the eventual failure of LQI, not to mention Hanoi Hana's AWOL bond repayment, I'm probably just about breaking even. On the other hand, I now have a much better idea of how things can go wrong, and what can be done to prevent this. I believe in giving people second chances, and I've helped several schemes get off the ground. I can't stop people pulling scams, but I can at least make it a little bit harder, and with the shift in culture, the community can block some of the more blatantly parasitic attempts. My research services Mineral compression for carrier/Rorqual pilots
Block Ukx KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.06.03 15:12:00 - [43] Ming, While releasing your API keys will not prevent you from scamming, it can help sell your bond by showing that you have the skills and prior experience trading, and that the 10% interest rate you are offering is within your reach. You have the right not to release your API key to a third party, but I believe it is not in the best interest of the Bond to withhold it from a trusted third party. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Auri Hella Downwind Trading Guild	Posted - 2008.06.03 18:16:00 - [44] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 If you feel like gambling away your isk do it on Selene's poker tables and not on this offering. There have been several IPO's popping up recently and most have gotten their funding even though the majority of the investors simply say "i have already written this off as a loss so anything i get back is a profit" or in this case "i feel like gambling tonight". I realize that any investment is a gamble and that there is a lot of isk just sitting in wallets but honestly do we have to resort to tossing isk at anyone who comes in here with a halfway decent or even a crappy plan? I'm not calling scam or anything but it doesn't look like much effort was put into this and considering there is little to no reputation should we really be tossing isk at this without due diligence? Just my 2 cents, carry on. As a matter of fact, I invested in your gambling IPO using pretty much the same words you use here. Yes, I'm taking a huge risk with ohmygawd, a hundred million isk. Dear me. I'm risking this to me rather tiny amount of money on the perhaps small chance that this person is in fact not pulling a scam. Yes, the plan is virtually nonexistant, the public relations could use a good polish and to be honest I'm probably an idiot for doing this. Then so be it. I've done more foolish things in this game. But I know for a fact that the principle described here as a plan is fundamentally sound and works if you do it right. I think there is a chance that this person wants to build a reputation here and I'm willing to gamble on that. Taking risks is fun sometimes. It's only a game, etc Also I suck at poker
Admiral Kwint Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.06.03 18:44:00 - [45] So you're an alt with no reputation that refuses to give any sort of hard info and has nothing to loose by walking off with the 3B. That sure sounds like a scam.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.06.03 18:46:00 - [46] I sympathise with not wanting to hand out the API information. I tried to launch an IPO without it, but I also didn't understand too much about it. I thought people would want me to take a good size stake in the business (I wanted 25%). Investors said NO. What investors want is some sort of "SECURITY". This can be done in a number of ways: 1. Personal (yours) assets could locked down by third party 2. IPO assets could be locked down, but allowing you to use them 3. An API audit by trusted 3rd party If you want to get this off the ground I strongly recommend providing one of the above solutions. In your case your stuck with API audit. This allows someone to see if you are at least a successful trader. It also allows the trusted 3rd party to declare all your characters (if agreed upon) on here if you scam (added security). Only a 'VERY FEW' people get by on rep alone.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry	Posted - 2008.06.03 18:48:00 - [47] due to Ming not willing to provide securities in any form, or an API audit by a trusted third party, i relinquish my reserved shares. i also strongly warn others that are reserved or thinking about this IPO to take a serious second look at doing so. ----- Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
Roguehalo RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2008.06.03 19:01:00 - [48] In a previous post I said I thought the op was probably an impoverished pvper trying to replenish his coffers via a scam ipo. Here is the description of the previous player corp he was in before starting his own corp 8 days ago. :- "Thou shall kill, & show no mercy Thou shall stalk, & shall not fear Thou shall sin, & not regret Obey this, and Thou shall be Devious... Invite only" Sounds pvp or pirate to me Don't sound very tradey
Maestro Del'Tirith	Posted - 2008.06.03 19:08:00 - [49] Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 03/06/2008 19:09:13 Originally by: Roguehalo "Thou shall kill, & show no mercy Thou shall stalk, & shall not fear Thou shall sin, & not regret Obey this, and Thou shall be Devious... Invite only" Sounds pvp or pirate to me Don't sound very tradey It also sounds...well...dorky. (so I say as I hop around in my little frigate oohing and aaaahing at the big freighters wandering by, and spend my time playing with money in a game instead of my stocks that are barely holding up IRL )
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.06.03 20:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Auri Hella As a matter of fact, I invested in your gambling IPO using pretty much the same words you use here. Yes, I'm taking a huge risk with ohmygawd, a hundred million isk. Dear me. I'm risking this to me rather tiny amount of money on the perhaps small chance that this person is in fact not pulling a scam. Yes, the plan is virtually nonexistant, the public relations could use a good polish and to be honest I'm probably an idiot for doing this. Then so be it. I've done more foolish things in this game. But I know for a fact that the principle described here as a plan is fundamentally sound and works if you do it right. I think there is a chance that this person wants to build a reputation here and I'm willing to gamble on that. Taking risks is fun sometimes. It's only a game, etc Also I suck at poker I had a nice reply typed up but the forums ate it so here goes again. I would hope that this guy and myself don't fall into the same category at all and for 3 reasons: 1. my past offerings success 2. my reputation built from a successful fuel delivery business 3. my longterm posting history, as some tend to think this is a good sign All of the above things are non-existent with this guy. My "gambling" ipo had several pages of questions regarding my offering and all of which were answered as well as full API key offered if needed. I also had individuals post on my behalf and one individual offer to help me out with a loan or by helping do fuel deliveries should I lose a ton at the poker tables(neither of these did I ask the individuals to do). I'd say he and I are in WAY different categories. But that isn't the point I'm striving for. It really shouldn't matter how much you are willing to lose or how much the IPO or bond is asking for. Without asking any questions as to why the operation will be a success or anything related to the issues of trust and reputation, people have been tossing isk at these offerings. All I'm asking for is due-diligence where due-diligence is due. :) P.S. You don't have to be good at poker to play poker, actually I prefer it this way. ---------------------------------------------- Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way.
Havok Pierce D00M.	Posted - 2008.06.03 21:10:00 - [51] Speaking as someone who'll still put ISK in this venture, I'm vaguely (but only vaguely--this was both inevitable and obligatory in retrospect) shocked at watching the tone flip from questioning to outright torches-and-pitchforks, led by YouGotRipped (always interesting to read) and Ricdic's floating head incarnation (I swear, that floating head should be EBANK's mascot sometime, if only because it draws attention). I said it once here, I'll say it again--"Risk is our business." So far, I've not seen anything that I believe is a "scam metric" in my books. I looked at the bond offer, read down the thread, and decided to put some ISK. That hasn't changed. I'm sure if someone went snooping in my corporate history they'd decide I was unfit to run trade operations (and no, the "I want to touch your ISK 'IPO'" that I know someone will dredge up doesn't count) either. I'm willing to cast my lot into this venture, decide on your own what you'll do--never let yourself succumb to the sheep effect. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.06.03 21:31:00 - [52] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 03/06/2008 21:31:01 Originally by: Havok Pierce Speaking as someone who'll still put ISK in this venture, I'm vaguely (but only vaguely--this was both inevitable and obligatory in retrospect) shocked at watching the tone flip from questioning to outright torches-and-pitchforks, led by YouGotRipped (always interesting to read) and Ricdic's floating head incarnation (I swear, that floating head should be EBANK's mascot sometime, if only because it draws attention). I said it once here, I'll say it again--"Risk is our business." So far, I've not seen anything that I believe is a "scam metric" in my books. I looked at the bond offer, read down the thread, and decided to put some ISK. That hasn't changed. I'm sure if someone went snooping in my corporate history they'd decide I was unfit to run trade operations (and no, the "I want to touch your ISK 'IPO'" that I know someone will dredge up doesn't count) either. I'm willing to cast my lot into this venture, decide on your own what you'll do--never let yourself succumb to the sheep effect. How about you toss your API key this way, I would like to check on something. Motherships
Ming Daizong Mithraeum	Posted - 2008.06.03 22:26:00 - [53] Edited by: Ming Daizong on 03/06/2008 22:32:34 Originally by: Havok Pierce I'm sure if someone went snooping in my corporate history they'd decide I was unfit to run trade operations What I feel is the most hilarious of this all is that my first Corp even has "Trading" in its name and is a well known Empire production and trading Corp. But they don't mention that, do they? In fact, the "PvP Corp" they mentioned (Yes, it WAS rather dorkey) spent its days mining and producing ships for an entire 0.0 Alliance, KOS (Which was as far from anything PvP as possible, itself). Certain people are picking and choosing from the information available to them in attempt to blackball me, and I feel the reason for this is their vested interest in the API Key scam. Originally by: Admiral Kwint nothing to loose by walking off with the 3B. Hi Yougotripped's alt For those of you who can't do multiplication. 100x10,000,000 = 1,000,000,000 And you're afraid to invest in me?
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.06.03 22:29:00 - [54] Originally by: Havok Pierce I said it once here, I'll say it again--"Risk is our business." So far, I've not seen anything that I believe is a "scam metric" in my books. I am afraid you're not very clear about the risk assessment part of a business plan. There's nothing wrong in investing in moderate/high risk business plans as long as there is a minimal effort on the behalf of the IPO/bond runner to substantiate his claims / prove he has the required skills trained. This part is a preliminary one and mandatory for everyone that's new to the MD. Motherships
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.06.03 22:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Havok Pierce Speaking as someone who'll still put ISK in this venture, I'm vaguely (but only vaguely--this was both inevitable and obligatory in retrospect) shocked at watching the tone flip from questioning to outright torches-and-pitchforks, led by YouGotRipped (always interesting to read) and Ricdic's floating head incarnation (I swear, that floating head should be EBANK's mascot sometime, if only because it draws attention). For a casual investor you sure lament a lot. Any particular reason? Motherships
Havok Pierce D00M.	Posted - 2008.06.03 22:43:00 - [56] Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: Havok Pierce Me being verbose. For a casual investor you sure lament a lot. Any particular reason? Yes. I'm particularly long-winded. What's your agenda? Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.06.03 22:58:00 - [57] Originally by: Ming Daizong Certain people are picking and choosing from the information available to them in attempt to blackball me, and I feel the reason for this is their vested interest in the API Key scam. API key scam? what? Originally by: Ming Daizong Originally by: Admiral Kwint nothing to loose by walking off with the 3B. Hi Yougotripped's alt For those of you who can't do multiplication. 100x10,000,000 = 1,000,000,000 And you're afraid to invest in me? Don't edit a previous post with new information, Often it is overlooked or ignored. Instead do a new reply so we can keep up with whats going on. If you edit a previous post most of us don't go back through all the replies in a thread to see if anything has changed. A bit of forum etiquette for you. Also, you don't like people calling your offering scam without evidence so you probably shouldn't call one person someone else's alt without proof as well (and btw they are two separate people so you are wrong anyways). ---------------------------------------------- Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way.
Ming Daizong Mithraeum	Posted - 2008.06.03 23:02:00 - [58] Edited by: Ming Daizong on 03/06/2008 23:03:49 Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 API key scam? what? Cataloging a trader's 'Who What When Where Why' is a scam of Mittani proportions. Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 you probably shouldn't call one person someone else's alt without proof as well I didn't think there would be more than one person on these forums that fails at basic multiplication, to be honest.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.06.03 23:38:00 - [59] Originally by: Ming Daizong Cataloging a trader's 'Who What When Where Why' is a scam of Mittani proportions. Proof that this has happened before please. Originally by: Ming Daizong I didn't think there would be more than one person on these forums that fails at basic multiplication, to be honest. Yep, several of us on these forums fail over and over at the same things but that doesn't make us all an alt of the same person. ---------------------------------------------- Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry	Posted - 2008.06.03 23:42:00 - [60] Originally by: Ming Daizong Cataloging a trader's 'Who What When Where Why' is a scam of Mittani proportions. that you would call the API key verification for investments a "scam of Mittani proportions" should tell anyone interested in investing in you that you've been planning a "scam of Mittani proportions" yourself. you don't want people to see what you're doing with the isk, to see that it doesn't get transferred off to another character and thus you don't get a reputation falling out here on MD, and you can pull the same scam again in the future. if you wish to do trades on MD with any success, you're going to have to submit to an API audit to ensure that you really are on the up and up. if i were starting up an IPO, even a trade one, i would give my key to a trusted auditor to ensure that i'm not scamming. why? because that's the way things are done. ----- Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it

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