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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.06 05:21:00 -
[31]
it's a complete waste of time, no material incentive means no point--and no the hilariously exorbitant lp costs for faction cruisers is not an incentive when cheap hacs abound
it will be a victory for the landed gentry however because most of the inexperienced newbs are going to lose everything they own and quit
haha
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Daghandelaar
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Posted - 2008.06.06 06:31:00 -
[32]
After all the reading I have done and running a couple of these myself on sisi, I have come to the conclusion that FWis only for the low pirates who want more target rich enviroment and otherwise will not be involved with FW in other fashion. This expansion has only the sole purpose of appeasing those pirates, there is no reward system in place for 99% of FW. PVP not a reward, Ranks are meaningless as a reward and come with a very harsh penality as well. I see no reason to take part in FW in any shape or form. Honestly go join a 0.0 alliance or start your own and move in to 0.0 at least that has the possibility of a reward.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.06.06 07:08:00 -
[33]
In this thread: Carebears think that FW are simply new missions to grind.
You aren't supposed to grind FW missions. There is no such thing as a FW mission runner. These missions are meant for when you and your friends are bored around your factions homesystems. You can be given a random offensive mission to give you a role-playing direction and purpose instead of wandering around randomly ganking people.
Whining about mission running is useless. This is not the mission running super duper expansion you are looking for.
Read the mf'ing dev blogs for christ sake, it clearly details how these new missions and combat sites are meant to be a reason to pvp, NOT NPC.
Risk vs reward in high sec vs low sec has been an issue for a long time, but whenever someone mentions nerfing high sec rewards to balance them, the carebears get all upset, so this is what we're left with.
 Originally by: CCP Casqade
Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
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Daan Sai
HAZCON Inc
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Posted - 2008.06.06 10:12:00 -
[34]
The trouble I see with the auto-balancing approach is if you start waaaay to low, the first users will be grossly underpaid and you risk a really low takeup rate and so the auto-balancer never gets a good sample of data to balance with.
SiSi stats are not likely to be useful for TQ rates,, and the L5 mission auto balancing has already be hashed over elsehwere, but basicly meant nearly zero take-up after the first month or so.
If auto-balancing works, then start high and let the rewards fall slowly. This rewards the early users, and ensures they are popular from the beginning.
By the time lots of players are running, then the auto balancing should prevent runaway inflation etc.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.06.06 10:15:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Lurana Jade
12 jump run through potentially hostile space ina frig or cruiser.
Probably lots of missions fails, and ship loss.
Difficult NPC's in the mission probably requiring a PVE fit.
Standings hit with the agent/faction for repeated fails.
Utterly insignificant rewards for all your trouble starting out, no idea if a mish fail is considered in the auto-scaling, no idea of the mission reward cap either.
I dont like to complain, but yes... the system currently used is not FUN. When people say that Eve feels like a second job, its not a compliment.
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Its dead, Jim.
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CCP Gangleri
C C P
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Posted - 2008.06.06 11:22:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Led Robster
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
the search funtion is your friend.
Hmmmm, methinks someone should try the search function before posting something like that :D
Wish i could put that on a t-shirt...
Well, I didn't specifically say that I was talking about *our* search function...
In other news, yay I get to be on a T-shirt!!!
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As previously mentioned in this thread the FW missions are not meant to make you rich, they are meant to give you and your friends a set of objectives to accomplish in hostile territory. For completing them your faction will reward you, as the war progresses more is spent on this sort of guerilla action, but only if it is successful.
I for one am worried about these missions not being very popular at first, but then I remember how excited I am to start roaming around in small frigate gangs looking for targets. If each member has a mission objective then somehow the gang has more drive, more purpose, the mission reward will really just be a secondary thing compared to the thrill of getting back in one piece 
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Originally by: CCP PrismX
Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides.
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.06.06 12:45:00 -
[37]
It is all fun till someone gets killed by disco party and you find out that replacement ship is 5 jumps in one direction, replacement guns in another and that local station sells shuttles for 50k. Then you remember you have 10jumps left to just get back to agent for less ISK than was your ammo cost and that the last "action" you did was sitting 15mins around some colored brick that did not even do *ding* when you capped it and kiss the poor victim goodbye only to let the whole FW rot in next minute.
Getting interest is not hard at all, it is new shiny stuff after all, but how do you sustain it?
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Kuroshiro
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:35:00 -
[38]
I guarantee you that the FW mission hubs will generate a market if one doesn't exist there already.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Originally by: Led Robster
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
the search funtion is your friend.
Hmmmm, methinks someone should try the search function before posting something like that :D
Wish i could put that on a t-shirt...
Well, I didn't specifically say that I was talking about *our* search function...
In other news, yay I get to be on a T-shirt!!!
-----
As previously mentioned in this thread the FW missions are not meant to make you rich, they are meant to give you and your friends a set of objectives to accomplish in hostile territory. For completing them your faction will reward you, as the war progresses more is spent on this sort of guerilla action, but only if it is successful.
I for one am worried about these missions not being very popular at first, but then I remember how excited I am to start roaming around in small frigate gangs looking for targets. If each member has a mission objective then somehow the gang has more drive, more purpose, the mission reward will really just be a secondary thing compared to the thrill of getting back in one piece
as long as it's not capped :P
Also maybe it would generate more interest if this missions were one day linked into a comlex system that levels up your own NPCs and/or deceasing the level of the other Npcs.
Like hualer missions to go 12 jumps into hostile space and bring back arms for your factions NPC giving them a boost or going and killing the enemy supply lines to decease the resistance in complexes in that system.
or something :P
but yeah sure we'll run them but only in a group of 10 and well honestly those missions better be damn fun.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:33:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Forge Lag
It is all fun till someone gets killed by disco party...
Quoting this just cuz.
Quote:
...and you find out that replacement ship is 5 jumps in one direction, replacement guns in another and that local station sells shuttles for 50k. Then you remember you have 10jumps left to just get back to agent for less ISK than was your ammo cost and that the last "action" you did was sitting 15mins around some colored brick that did not even do *ding* when you capped it and kiss the poor victim goodbye only to let the whole FW rot in next minute.
So it's almost like regular PvP, but with more rewards. 
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
iudex
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:50:00 -
[41]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Also maybe it would generate more interest if this missions were one day linked into a comlex system that levels up your own NPCs and/or deceasing the level of the other Npcs.
Like hualer missions to go 12 jumps into hostile space and bring back arms for your factions NPC giving them a boost or going and killing the enemy supply lines to decease the resistance in complexes in that system.
or something :P
Yes that were nice, you should have brought this earlier. It would make much more sense, if the missions had a global impact in some way: adding few victory points to the system, sending faction navy ships to the gates as "reinforcemnt" for each completed mission or make the stronghold guards tougher or something.
For now it's only about the rank, and the rank has no advantages (not yet) except being a littl ego-booster.
If i want to feel the thrill by doing missions in a dangerous area, i do missions for pirate factions: they have all the pvp-related thrill and pay much better(more lp in 0.0 than in lowsec + pirate faction implants and such in lp stores). So it's ONLY about the rank atm (which can be gained much faster and easier with capturing/defending strongholds), i hope there will be some rewards for it in near future.
_________________________________________
Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.50 // Angel Cartel +7.17 // Minmatar Republic -8.49 // Gallente Federation -9.43
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CCP Gangleri
C C P
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:06:00 -
[42]
Ok, I'm going to set up a little scenario to better convey my view on these missions.
Lets say you and your corp mates want to set up a small and fast roaming gang, you're going to travel into enemy space and scan for plexes and maybe do some random ganking if the opportunity arises. Someone has the idea of each fleet member takes a lvl1 mission and you then create a 'there and back again' route plan that stops by at all the mission locations. Voilß, a quick and easy way to get things rolling, plus you are likely to get locals actually warping to your mission instead of you having to try to find them. I'd say thats a bonus 
In case you find a system that has no one in local some of the fleet warps around and scans for plexes to take while the others complete the mission together.
This kind of scenario is quite easy to set up within the FW mechanics, the risk of getting caught by gate camps is minimal, while the likelyhood of PvP encounters is probably pretty high.
This is how I see these missions being used, it's like professional PvP, you get paid for going out in a roaming gang hunting players. If you want to solo lvl4 missions in high sec then you can do that too, and each of those is going to be able to pay for quite a few frigates lost, so in the end it all balances out. More people will do these missions and they will take a long time to complete them, thus the rewards slowly rise to make the whole venture more sustainable.
There is no way for us to predict how this will be received by the players, but we really are doing our best to create tools for players to use in order to increase the fun they have. Or not use, as the case may be, in the end, it is up to you.
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Originally by: CCP PrismX
Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides.
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Ammon Skycloud
Matari Research Foundation
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:14:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
Ok, so maybe our search function is less useful than it could be 
There is this really cool new feature called Dev Finder though.
I don't have answers to all of your questions since this is not my area of expertise but here is what I do know:
- All missions are run on this same auto-balancing logic, lvl1 through lvl5, so it does work quite well in most cases
- lvl5 missions have had some issues but I have heard rumours of a fix in this patch
- When I recently brought this very issue to our experts they assured me that bonus reward timers are also auto-balanced over time
Many new missions have been introduced in the past and they do indeed auto balance very well,I think it's a pretty decent bit of code by the CCP devs there, however it does occur to me that missions could be started out with slightly more relevant rewards & timers, surely when these missions are created the level of difficulty is at least guessed at already? why not simply start the reward/timer at something that is at least a close match to what they should be than start them at the minimum and force the first few hundred/thousand mission runners pay for the balancing?
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Nathan West
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:27:00 -
[44]
Not everything in eve is about risk vs. reward.
Get 10 buddies to complete that mision and blow up every enemy you see along the way.
If you want to make ISK go run lvl4s, if you want some pvp go for FW.
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Resamo
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:30:00 -
[45]
I love the conecept of faction wars and have been working my kestral fittings (have not flow one in probably 2 years).
But my fear lies in the ability of well run pirate or pvp corps staging large gate camps in serious pvp ships (a kestral is not a serious pvp ship) poping me and anyone else in a small FW ship when ever we go anywhere. Its fairly easy to get battleships and hacs fast locking to ruin my day when i jump into a system.
I would love to here a comment on how the designers of FW will make it so i actually can participate in a tech 1 frigate let alone a new player that does not have my 50M sp..
I guess i have been in and run into enough 0.0 gate camps to realize that a bunch of noobs running around in tech 1 frigs and battlecruiers.. are sitting ducks to anyone with a few sensor boosters.
That being said i can kind of see the large pirate/pvp corps involved in faction wars fighting with each other so having a gate camp may attract bigger ships to eat you.
Still a gang of kestrals will not stand up very well to a gang of nano hacs and with no bubbles in high sec its going to be impossible to actually get rid of those nano gangs that are eating the new players.
Long story short, i have a bad feeling FW will turn into easy kill mail fest or EKMF as i am now calling it.
Oh and kestral for the win!!! dont let me catch you or you will feel the pain of my 4x cruise missiles... wait no cant do that with a kestral anymore umm the pain of my 4x rockets!!!
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Zhang Ramses
Chaos From Order
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Posted - 2008.06.06 19:20:00 -
[46]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
There is no way for us to predict how this will be received by the players, but we really are doing our best to create tools for players to use in order to increase the fun they have. Or not use, as the case may be, in the end, it is up to you.
I think it's quite easy to predict how it will be received. Think L5 missions, with a lower barrier of entry, more risk and less reward. In other words: horrible, unless the autobalancer will let LP rewards for L4 FW missions reach 20-30k. And we all know it won't.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.06 20:07:00 -
[47]
You know I'm going to take this time to ONCE AGAIN bring up my push for FW missions to give out ONLY LP.
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Fitser Pullman
Freak Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.06 20:32:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Fitser Pullman on 06/06/2008 20:32:39
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Fitser Pullman
Bottom line, the search function isn't broken, you are.
Ahm, yes it is.
That a work around exists by using an external service does not make the search function any less broken.
That is like saying 'well, this care doesn't actually have a flat because you can always take the bus'
yes that would be right if the mod had said "EVE search is your friend" or even specified a search function. But he didn't. So this is a post by someone who hasn't collected much information at all...
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No, you aren't funny |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.06 21:02:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Fitser Pullman
yes that would be right if the mod had said "EVE search is your friend" or even specified a search function. But he didn't. So this is a post by someone who hasn't collected much information at all...
Now you're being an ass. Even the mod in question admitted that the search feature rather sucks.
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.06.06 21:26:00 -
[50]
Quote:
What this means is that if people consistently take a long time to run a mission the autobalancing system will start calculating the rewards and time allowances upwards to compensate.
Ah, but will it balance if no one bothers to run the mission at all?
I assume eventually the auto reward tool will work its magic, but I still think that having to travel 26 jumps for a single mission is a bit much. I mean, people want to spend their evening pew pewing, not travelling :p
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.06 21:48:00 -
[51]
One last question, why would I take a mission 2 jumps away from ammar space, if I can take a mission from 12 jumps away from ammar space so I don't have to fly through ammar space to get to the mission?
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Gridwalker
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Posted - 2008.06.06 21:54:00 -
[52]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
There is no way for us to predict how this will be received by the players, but we really are doing our best to create tools for players to use in order to increase the fun they have. Or not use, as the case may be, in the end, it is up to you.
I've not made it a secret that I am less than hopeful that things are going to work out as planned. I'm sure there will be people who will participate in FW and have a lot of fun doing so, but I'm not yet convinced it is going to work the way you've pictured.
Regardless, this thread was about the missions and the "auto adjustments". Might I suggest that one of the experts on the topic attempt to seed the mission with slightly more sane initial values. In fact, as a way to bootstrap the whole system, I seriously recommend seeding them with somewhat generous values. They'll adjust downward, but give players an initial incentive to try them.
-Grid
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Vibora BR
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Posted - 2008.06.06 22:15:00 -
[53]
Remember to add in the risk of FW missions that you will have to use a clone without implants as the risk of pod killing is very high.
This mean that to participate in FW your skill training rating will be baddly decreased.
So the current mission reward is even lower in my opinion.
I think the mission reward should be at least 50 times higher than the current values to be at least a little fair.
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EadTaes
Veni Vidi Vici.
XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.06.06 23:05:00 -
[54]
Personally from a pvp sense and my experience. Their is no way in hell i would risk my ship or my gang mates ships in a suicide mission far in enemy territory with no fall back and with gate camp everywhere. When you'll warp tot hat beacon company won't be far behind. Getting to them alone will be impossible and i agree with that it should be very team oriented. But you team will have to deploy very costly resources to just get to the mission and come back alive in the same ship is gonna be a pain. And typical reward amount ain't go cut it.
A flee mission is like this: It's a walk int eh park pretty much so getting only a peanut at the end is ok and balanced.
A militia mission is like this: IT'S A WALK THROUGH HELL AND BACK. If you only give em a peanut I'm gonna tell you to take a hike and i won't be polite about it.
In 0.0 capturing new space to make more money is the reward. And it a very lucrative reward that allows you to sustain your self if you do it right. If faction missions payout are the same as regular mission it's not worth it. Going 13 jumps in 0.0 to enemy space is easy in low sec with thousand of people running around to get you its gonna be hell. A whole different ball game.
People will fight each other yes, They'll camp and wait for something to come near them. But will they fight the WAR? No not if the rewards of fighting the war aren't worth the investment and time.
So do you want people to just fight each other, or fight the war as well as each other?
0.0 Policing, Econnomic Control & NPC Agents |
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.06 23:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
As previously mentioned in this thread the FW missions are not meant to make you rich, they are meant to give you and your friends a set of objectives to accomplish in hostile territory. For completing them your faction will reward you, as the war progresses more is spent on this sort of guerilla action, but only if it is successful.
I for one am worried about these missions not being very popular at first, but then I remember how excited I am to start roaming around in small frigate gangs looking for targets. If each member has a mission objective then somehow the gang has more drive, more purpose, the mission reward will really just be a secondary thing compared to the thrill of getting back in one piece
The secondary thrill basically is the primary thrill. Pirates are a concern and since they are not participating in the same limits Militia does, they do have an upper hand.
My main worry is that tying the outcome of FW on terms of sovereignty on missions only, may prove very limiting. I may have missed a dev blog stating that occupation may bring additional npc effects (affecting all players?), but this is something that would set a longterm goal thus increasing participation. Didn't notice a dev blog speculating about minor factions (pirate, independent) future in FW.
I understand that these mission are mainly aimed at forming gangs and move as a semi roaming gang. To see a higher participation (thus more gangs and numbers) you need to provide something that will lure more players, right? 
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Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
SoulsWrath
Lost-Souls
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Posted - 2008.06.07 00:17:00 -
[56]
Here's an idea for CCP, as well as alot of other game companies. Seeing as how the game is made for those who play it, as well as supported by the same. When the majority of the players are telling you something needs fixed.. instead of a handful of devs trying to tell them why it doesn't (say 5 ppls point of view vs 20,000 ppls), Why not listen to the masses, those who the game is designed for? I just don't see the logic behind it. Just take an hour or two and tweak the mission timer and rewards.. sheesh. |
Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
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Posted - 2008.06.07 03:33:00 -
[57]
Originally by: SoulsWrath
Here's an idea for CCP, as well as alot of other game companies. Seeing as how the game is made for those who play it, as well as supported by the same. When the majority of the players are telling you something needs fixed.. instead of a handful of devs trying to tell them why it doesn't (say 5 ppls point of view vs 20,000 ppls), Why not listen to the masses, those who the game is designed for? I just don't see the logic behind it. Just take an hour or two and tweak the mission timer and rewards.. sheesh.
Of course we must also remember that the forums are populated by a small (albeit very vocal) part of the population.
ccp should definately listed to the playerbase... and they will hear from the playerbase in game after FW is released :)
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Miss Xerox
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Posted - 2008.06.07 05:49:00 -
[58]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
As previously mentioned in this thread the FW missions are not meant to make you rich, they are meant to give you and your friends a set of objectives to accomplish in hostile territory. For completing them your faction will reward you, as the war progresses more is spent on this sort of guerilla action, but only if it is successful.
Doomed to fail. Why? It's right out there were no one in their right mind has wanted to go for the past four+ years: Low Security space, which nothing has been done to bring into any sort of control.
The FW objectives are purely PvE, and the NPCs stout enough to force a pilot to forego a good solid PvP setup to survive it, so the pirates (as someone mentioned earlier) will be camping whatever system seems hot in that new little region CCP designed for him and shooting fish in a barrel. They will not, do not, care about anything other than shooting random people in ships completely and utterly unable to respond.
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
I for one am worried about these missions not being very popular at first, but then I remember how excited I am to start roaming around in small frigate gangs looking for targets. If each member has a mission objective then somehow the gang has more drive, more purpose, the mission reward will really just be a secondary thing compared to the thrill of getting back in one piece
And you reveal yourself to be the very scourge that will keep pilots away from the FW content; just another pirate looking for a random overview blip to shoot at.
FW will give no member of any group, gang, faction, or whatever a worthwhile objective if the sole objective is to get out in one piece. No one will bother to do anything with the content without an expectation of tangible rewards.
And with the 'balancer' skewed toward the limited end of returns rather than a higher-than-average return rate (that slowly settles to the expected norm), who's going to bother?
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.07 06:53:00 -
[59]
Originally by: CCP Gangleri
CCP Cangleri vision of FW warfare
I am sorry as the reply will sound very harsh, but I haven't found a better reply.
Game wise your roaming gang is made of very stupid people:
1) running around with 10 mission open doing them as a group: the risk of failing all the missions that require to bring back an item is extremely high (if you value the misssion success you don't run around with the mission completion's item in your hold). Failure means lovered standin, not a good thing.
2) running around with 10 mission open doing them as a group: guaranteed loss of the timer bonus;
3) some people doing the mission, the other guarding the gate: wow, splitting an already pitiful reward with even more people for the chance succeeding;
4) doing the complexes, again more than half of the gang staying back to guard the acceleration gate: with "luck" they will be doing nothing for 1 hour (remember the time needed to change control?), great way to spend a evening. Without luck they will be in a know position for 1 hour, waiting for the hammer to fall.
5) Quote:
This is how I see these missions being used, it's like professional PvP, you get paid for going out in a roaming gang hunting players.
Worst payed professional in the game. Hunting players don't pay, what you get back is always less than the loss. That without considering that there is no guarantee to get the time to loot the player wrecks and the complexx wrecks. As already pointed the playyers will be lucky to get back the cost of the ammunitions.
5) Quote:
the risk of getting caught by gate camps is minimal, while the likelyhood of PvP encounters is probably pretty high
 How you get to this conclusion? Militia channel will be full of spies so it is almost guaranteed that you will get someone that know where you are directed (unless you call only corpmates to in your fleet, but then what is the function of the militia?).
6) going around with a group of 10 little know people hoping they don't do a mistake  or waiting to 10 of your corpmates to be on line and willing to do some FW running around.
Your idea has some quality for doing complexes (still low rewards but they can be an excuse to run around and shoot people, but the mission will be a drawback, not a advantage, as they will create a ship size limit and a time limit.
Essentially to me it seem to pile up all the worst aspect of missioning, roaming PvP gangs, grouping with unknown people and waiting to have enough people on line without any of the redeeming qualities.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.07 11:36:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/06/2008 11:48:44
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/06/2008 11:37:53
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Honestly, doesn't that essentially mean that people have to actually run the mission for it to be automatically balanced?
We've heard the oft quoted "automatically balanced" thing before with L5 missions. So, how do you justify the horribly low rewards from them? People barely run them these days because the rewards are widely considered to be not worth it at all.
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but you guys should start the mission rewards off at a reasonable amount for the launch, and let them be adjusted down a bit from there. Afterall, how much more popular would L5 missions be if you guys had manually adjusted the rewards up before launch?
-Liang
This. The rewards are absurdly low.
FW MUST keep people stocked in ships to be viable.
As for resupplying in low-sec, I know I'm starting to sell loot locally (with some corpmates as well) in hopes of kicking off a small trading hub.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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