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Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.09 03:07:00 - [31] Originally by: Adm Tecumseh I spent billions to invent ships and in the process I lost billions, The (minus)ME and chance of sucess rate is far to flawed. Fix the ME and all will be better thereby closing the gap. Now I only invent a little bit to keep me in my fav ships. This is expecially true of bigger ships like the JF, Imagine trying to buld an anshar with a -5 me. Friggin ridiculous Chris Learn how to use decryptors, already. Toss a Test Reports or Collision Measurements in there, and your Anshar will have only -1 or -2 ME. And given that it's physically impossible to get a better Anshar blueprint, I don't think that's exactly onerous to deal with that. Who cares what the abstract cost is? Perfect research on new T1 is -1 ME. Just add 20% to the base costs and be done with it. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Rat Scout Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:07:00 - [32] Only option I see is reinstating the lottery, those research agents are preaty boring right now anyway. Tech 2 bpo's stay, and we all get a chance at the lottery again, while prices are stable thanks to invention. So rework this topic to new lottery in the game, and you have my support. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 07:30:00 - [33] Originally by: W0RST N1GHTMAR3 Either make t2 bpo's available to all or remove them from the game. That way we're all on equal footing. No need to comment on this one, at least not for my benefit, Lecrotta. I always ignore snotty little snips like you. Whatever pal your greed and envy are the issue here and neither of them are justification to remove items from the game just cos you wanna make a little more isk. BTW T2 bpo's are available to all as thay pop up on the escrow/auction quite often you just need to check regularly and buy them. Originally by: W0RST N1GHTMAR3 For the rest, fair is fair. I believe there was a previous suggestion to set T2 BPOs to a maximum number of runs copy. That sounds reasonable to me and if the number is 1000, isn't that far more than most will ever use? How is it fair to remove a thing others spent multiple billions on just so a bunch of jealous greedy ppl can make a little more isk?.
Khatred ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs	Posted - 2008.06.09 07:36:00 - [34] No. Am I biased? Probably yes but then again, I don't hide it and try to come up with reasons trying to look like I am not. Wich is what most people do. As for leveling the playing field, yeah right, what are you going to do next, ask CCP to lobotomize the people smarter than you?
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:08:00 - [35] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 09/06/2008 15:08:51 Originally by: Khatred As for leveling the playing field, yeah right, what are you going to do next, ask CCP to lobotomize the people smarter than you? LOL that's pretty accurate of what those people want! It is all those wow and cs babies coming in with little or no concept of what EVE is about and start spouting off the pearls of wisdom of how a game "should be" and "fairness" and "equal playing field." EVE has all of it, fairness and equal playing field, one just has to be smart enough to find the way - and take advantage of the ones who are unequal, and be unfair to the ones who are not smart.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Jinx Barker Originally by: Khatred As for leveling the playing field, yeah right, what are you going to do next, ask CCP to lobotomize the people smarter than you? LOL that's pretty accurate of what those people want! It is all those wow and cs babies coming in with little or no concept of what EVE is about and start spouting off the pearls of wisdom of how a game "should be" and "fairness" and "equal playing field." EVE has all of it, fairness and equal playing field, one just has to be smart enough to find the way - and take advantage of the ones who are unequal, and be unfair to the ones who are not smart. /signed These guys will always find things to complain about while others find the same things and profit from them. I love the comments of "balance" and other crap as well when what they realy want is to play eve in easy mode.
Soulita Inner Core	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:28:00 - [37] Very much agreed with the OP.
Yara Stone Southern Productions	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:14:00 - [38] I would like to see something get done about this in the game. Right now a few old players have items that you cannot obtain ingame, This in my mind would be something akin to developer content for testing. I see a few options to handel it such as change all the bpo's to full run BPC's to remove them from the game or add the ability to create BPO's for these items in game. Not addressing these in the game because somebody feels that it's unfair to loose all that isk is not smart, it's lowers the gaming experience for the rest of us and should be dealt with. I personally have 2 t2 bpo's and I still want this changed so it's a fair and level gaming for everybody.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:23:00 - [39] Originally by: Yara Stone I would like to see something get done about this in the game. Right now a few old players have items that you cannot obtain ingame, This in my mind would be something akin to developer content for testing. I see a few options to handel it such as change all the bpo's to full run BPC's to remove them from the game or add the ability to create BPO's for these items in game. Not addressing these in the game because somebody feels that it's unfair to loose all that isk is not smart, it's lowers the gaming experience for the rest of us and should be dealt with. I personally have 2 t2 bpo's and I still want this changed so it's a fair and level gaming for everybody. How does somebody owning something you can buy off them if they decide to sell it lessen your gaming experience???????. Should i petition ccp for the time i played since 2003 cos invention was not available?, are you and others so pathetic that your jealousy and envy of others is ruining your game time?. Go farm gold in WOW.
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:24:00 - [40] along the lines of the OP's complaint, i find that T2 mining crystals are selling for MUCH less than the invention costs would dictate. the materials to build them are cheap but the datacores are expensive. T2 BPO holders hold the monopoly on these still. very much /signed ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Czanthria Ad Astra Vexillum Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:15:00 - [41] I support this, not because I think T2 BPO owners have an unfair advantage, but because it creates cost inequalities which increase the barrier to entry of invention. In addition, if you actually own a T2 BPO and support this, you can put your money where your mouth is and trash it, you can even wait until you've gotten "max runs" out of it or whatever your proposal would entail. -- Knowledge is Power!
Killljoy	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:43:00 - [42] Why don't they just make invention dual tiered. The current system for makeing BPCs of of T2 gear. And a way more expencive like 100-1000x more data cores and some other new stuff and invention based skills at lvl 5's in the same things you need now. And it will transfer T1 BPOs to T2. Gives poeple a reason to get those high lvl R&D agents. It will remove alot of T1 bpos as they get transfered to T2. It would still take quite a bit of time for new players to get these skills and RP. But it would give some poeple another goal. It doesn't seam like this would be unfair to anyone really, this game is skill and ISK based. And it will feed both really.
Joe Umbra Legion	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:58:00 - [43] I would only be Satisfied If My Bpos were turned into BPC equal to 3 years worth of production. Actually i'd only be satisfied if Dev's actually commented on the issue instead of hiding from it. The last peep of info was Ages ago at the last Fanfest (a reply of 'no they won't be changed') But there really is too much Time between actually Dev Comments. Its a constant gamble investing in Assets than can be nurfed becuase of a Forum of Majority whiners. Pe0w
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:02:00 - [44] Originally by: Yara Stone I would like to see something get done about this in the game. Right now a few old players have items that you cannot obtain ingame, This in my mind would be something akin to developer content for testing. I see a few options to handel it such as change all the bpo's to full run BPC's to remove them from the game or add the ability to create BPO's for these items in game. Not addressing these in the game because somebody feels that it's unfair to loose all that isk is not smart, it's lowers the gaming experience for the rest of us and should be dealt with. I personally have 2 t2 bpo's and I still want this changed so it's a fair and level gaming for everybody. So are you in favour of removing the Apotheosis shuttle from the game? After all, you can no longer acquire it. How about the rare skills MFO, MRO, SDO, and AE? Those are similarly unobtainable. And let's not even get into the unique ships. None of them are obtainable in-game today, two of them are useful for something other than bragging rights, and one class of them is far and away better than any other battleships in existence. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:10:00 - [45] All the loudmouths who are screaming for the removal of the T2 BPOs from the game... how about going here to this thread T2 BPOS THE FUTURE: Dev Blog Needed and posting your support for a simple DEVBLOG that will nip this in the bud once and for all? Hu? I own T2 BPO and I want to hear what the developers actually have to say on the issue? Or are you all only good for screaming and yelling on the forums and are afraid to actually ASK for answers, I am not... so show some guts, and ask for them....
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.06.11 04:11:00 - [46] sorry but no the argument against t2 bpo's is as valid as a bpo holder saying take invention out of the game because it devalues my assets . the simple truth is that invention in most cases is often done wrong and quite poorly by those who engage in it . while some inventors churn out 3bill a month easy some make very little because they invent low demand/high competion items constantly having to fight price wars and drop their sell orders to get their return faster . many threads have bee posted on this topic never has one conclusive argument against the existence of t2 bpo's been made . remember invention came along to reduce and normalize prices on t2 items for the sake of the consumer it is not meant to be a insta wealth generator . if t2 bposs were removed and invention became a higher proft margin enterprise it would become flooded by the mee too crowd and in the end your profits would be bled off by competition and would in the end mirror the profitability of t-1 manufacturing . an inventor has the advantage of volume by being able with a properly funded and laid out production model to out produce the t-2 bpo holder and therefore place on more markets simultaneaously . where as the bpo holder is limited to a single output . if anything the advantage lies with the inventor as long as he isn't working piecemeal and is focused on long term sucess . i would suggest you invest your time and energy on reseaching product placement and and production optimisation . but that would involve effort and dedication on your part and tbh that not why this thread was posted . because it's obvious that work is exactly what your trying to avoid . * *
Ma Eies	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:03:00 - [47] Edited by: Ma Eies on 11/06/2008 08:05:03 i know this is just going to be ignored by anyone who disagrees, but T2 BPOs aren't competing with invention, other inventors are. T2 BPOs do not produce enough, that's why T2 prices were so high before invention, inventors flooded on to the scene, dropping prices competing with each other, T2 BPO owners probably make more profit per ship but a good inventor has much more volume possible and flexibility to shift products if their current project loses profitability if all T2 BPOs where removed right now the market wouldn't be changed at all
Grarr Dexx Naval Protection Corp Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:27:00 - [48] T2 BPO's are fine, over 95% of them have switched hands countless times already. Not signed.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:17:00 - [49] Edited by: Yorda on 11/06/2008 14:17:55 This is just one of the many things stopping newer players from integrating into the current eve universe. Make them into 100run BPCs or something instead.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Yorda This is just one of the many things stopping newer players from integrating into the current eve universe. Actually if the newer players make multi billions of isk they can buy a T2 BPO just like most of the currant holders had to do.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:28:00 - [51] Originally by: lecrotta Actually if the newer players make multi billions of isk they can buy a T2 BPO just like most of the currant holders had to do. Only if the current holders want to sell them.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:28:00 - [52] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Yorda This is just one of the many things stopping newer players from integrating into the current eve universe. Actually if the newer players make multi billions of isk they can buy a T2 BPO just like most of the currant holders had to do. Current. Also, life isn't fair, but the game always needs to balanced. CCP has never refrained from changing ships because of peoples investments into them. There is no reason to not extend that to other assets(nor have they ever not extended that into other assets). There needs to be a sound reason for keeping these assets in the game which give a significant advantage to the old guard which is unnecessary and against the spirit of eve, regardless of who currently owns them.
sophisticatedlimabean Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:41:00 - [53] Originally by: Goumindong There needs to be a sound reason for keeping these assets in the game which give a significant advantage to the old guard which is unnecessary and against the spirit of eve, regardless of who currently owns them. That is the attitude of a nerfit hound. There needs to be a very good reason to nerf summat not the other way around. 1. The price drop on T2 items ppl are complaining about has come from invention not from BPO's. 2. The T2 market will not rise in price just because BPO's have been removed so this entire idea is about jealousy and how others can make slightly higher profits and anybody who thinks differently is a fool or a liar. 3. BPO holders sell them on occasion giving those who had the wisdom and foresight to build investment capital the chance to gain one.
CyrixJester GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:44:00 - [54] Edited by: CyrixJester on 11/06/2008 14:44:53 Warning, wall of text ahead The problem with T2 BPOs is not related at all to how profitable it may or may not be to own them. As I see it, the concept has two inherent problems which act to restrict the ability of a new player to integrate into the EVE community. The first and largest problem in my opinion is that the very existence of T2 BPOs acts as an unfair barrier to entry into the T2 marketplace. As it stands now, a new player attempting to enter the market has to either purchase a BPC with a limited number of runs or invent the relevant BPC themselves. Due to the nature of invention, there is a significant amount of isk and time that must be expended in order to enter the market. On the other hand, those few who were playing the game back when the T2 lottery was in play simply ran a few missions, and were rewarded with free entry into the marketplace. If the lottery was still in place, this would be less of an issue as it would still be possible to gain the advantage that the older players possess. But instead, we have a limited number of unlimited run blueprints held by those who were around back in 2004 competing with newer players who have to constantly invest new capital in order to remain in the marketplace. This is inherently unfair, and it is irrelevant that the BPOs are traded: they should not exist in the first place. The second problem comes from a lack of continuity in policy behind the EVE marketplace. The developers have been working to remove their influence on the market for some time now, as best seen with the gradual removal of most NPC-seeded items. Their policy appears to be that, if it can be produced by the players, let the players produce it. This cannot be done with T2 BPOs. I cannot go and make more of them, even though they unduly influence an item that IS produced by the player base. This is an issue that has to be dealt with. Now, how to compensate those holding the BPOs is fairly simple. Because the BPOs do get traded from time to time, give BPO holders a multi-run BPC of whatever item they have, plus an amount of isk to compensate for the loss of the BPO. CCP would be, in essence, buying out the BPO holders. TL;DR - T2 BPOs act as a barrier to entry into the market and do not follow CCPs current actions regarding the market, both points serve to discourage new players from integrating into the EVE community.
sophisticatedlimabean Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:52:00 - [55] Originally by: CyrixJester The problem with T2 BPOs is not related at all to how profitable it may or may not be to own them. As I see it, the concept has two inherent problems which act to restrict the ability of a new player to integrate into the EVE community. The first and largest problem in my opinion is that the very existence of T2 BPOs acts as an unfair barrier to entry into the T2 marketplace. As it stands now, a new player attempting to enter the market has to either purchase a BPC with a limited number of runs or invent the relevant BPC themselves. Due to the nature of invention, there is a significant amount of isk and time that must be expended in order to enter the market. An older player without any BPO's has to buy into the market as well buddy just like he needs or needed to train skills or earn isk for ships this is not a eve age issue at all. Originally by: CyrixJester On the other hand, those few who were playing the game back when the T2 lottery was in play simply ran a few missions, and were rewarded with free entry into the marketplace. Wrong Just because ppl have been playing longer does not mean they have access to t2 bpo's or the market. Ive been playing since 2003 and i do not have a t2 bpo or a t1 for that matter unless it drops from somebody wreck.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:54:00 - [56] Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean An older player without any BPO's has to buy into the market as well buddy just like he needs or needed to train skills or earn isk for ships this is not a eve age issue at all. Wrong Just because ppl have been playing longer does not mean they have access to t2 bpo's or the market. Ive been playing since 2003 and i do not have a t2 bpo or a t1 for that matter unless it drops from somebody wreck. I really don't miss marakov or whatever your alt was called. Your posting is worse than mine.
CyrixJester GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:58:00 - [57] Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean An older player without any BPO's has to buy into the market as well buddy just like he needs or needed to train skills or earn isk for ships this is not a eve age issue at all. How is it not an age issue? The older players had a chance to get T2 BPOs via the lottery, newer players do not. The supply of T2 BPOs is limited by this, and such a restriction only benefits older players who hold the BPOs or can afford to purchase the BPOs. Newer players can either sell GTCs in the hope of getting enough isk to buy one of a limited number of GTCs, or go without.
sophisticatedlimabean Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.06.11 14:59:00 - [58] Originally by: Yorda Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean An older player without any BPO's has to buy into the market as well buddy just like he needs or needed to train skills or earn isk for ships this is not a eve age issue at all. Wrong Just because ppl have been playing longer does not mean they have access to t2 bpo's or the market. Ive been playing since 2003 and i do not have a t2 bpo or a t1 for that matter unless it drops from somebody wreck. I really don't miss marakov or whatever your alt was called. Your posting is worse than mine. Your idea of content and rational argument has not changed much has it. Go away. My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.
sophisticatedlimabean Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.06.11 15:04:00 - [59] Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 11/06/2008 15:04:41 Originally by: CyrixJester Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean An older player without any BPO's has to buy into the market as well buddy just like he needs or needed to train skills or earn isk for ships this is not a eve age issue at all. How is it not an age issue? The older players had a chance to get T2 BPOs via the lottery, newer players do not. The supply of T2 BPOs is limited by this, and such a restriction only benefits older players who hold the BPOs or can afford to purchase the BPOs. Newer players can either sell GTCs in the hope of getting enough isk to buy one of a limited number of GTCs, or go without. What about older players who were not carebear mission runners?, they (I) are in the same boat as the newer players. As i said this is not about age its about jealousy and bitterness, as nothing will change if BPO's get removed other than NOBODY EVER young or old will get a chance to own one. My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.
Nynaeve Ares Animus Incarnate	Posted - 2008.06.11 15:10:00 - [60] Something needs to be done to level the playing field.

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