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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.09 23:37:00 -
[1]
I think with Shiva, new specialisation skills will come. I like this idea but I dislike one thing about it:
Until now, although it hurt the Amarr that Lasers were so bad, it was not as much of a problem as it will be because we simply trained our hybrid skills up and mounted rails or blasters on our Apocs. Was about one week of training to do so.
With the specialisation skills, you will have to specialise in one type of gun. That would force us to either specialise in Hybrids which would be kinda weird for Amarr (especially cause it might be that race-specific skills come, as far as I know), or to stay out of any real combat.
Therefore I hope you delay those specialisation skills until Lasers are fixed.
I hope you know what I am talking about. If you don't I will present you the difference between a 425rail and a Megabeam and why the Rail is so much better on an Apoc than a Megabeam. (not taking into account skills, just the base stats)
Cap/sec: Megabeam: 7.78 / 425 Rail: 3,14
Grid: Megabeam: 3250 / 425 Rail: 2500
CPU: Megabeam 55 / 425 Rail: 70
Optimal Range: Megabeam 40km / 425 Rail: 48km
Falloff: Megabeam 16km / 425 Rail: 24km
Damage: same
Now as you see, the Rail beats the Megabeam by far in all aspects except CPU. Alone the difference in grid makes up for that though.
So no reason to use a Megabeam on an Apoc if you can use a Rail which only has advantages.
And please don't forget that Amarr ships also need to be looked at. I.e. Megathron does of course more damage as it has 5% damage and tracking bonus per level. Raven and Tempest can be considered stronger than Apoc or Megathron anyway.
Don't want to go into the details about the ships though as the main issue I want to bring up in this thread are the Lasers. Almost all agree that they need to be changed, its known for a long time, I want to see a reaction from CCP.
I am playing Eve since Beta but I am getting really close to consider cancelling my subscription. Not just because of this issue but because it seems that CCP ignores important issues for long times and does many nerfs without thinking about the results which is really frustrating. I could give a lot of other examples but I want to keep the thread focused on the lasers so I don't. Also don't understand this as a threat, I know that CCP does not care if I quit or not, it is meant as to show how serious the issue is for me and many others (with "the issue" I am meaning mainly the stupid nerfs and changes in general, less the lasers. but as I said I'd like to keep the thread focused on lasers and specialisation skills so please open another thread (and maybe in another forum) if you want to talk about the other issues)
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Muspell
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Posted - 2004.05.10 00:10:00 -
[2]
The grid issue... Apoc has better grid, thus more fitting possibilities.
Cap... Apoc has a larger cap
Although I agree that the lasers need a boost, I seriously suggest you use low range weapons. Fit Mega Pulse, I have a few corpmates who do that, and are very happy with the outcome. The optimal range doesn't matter.. it is the same for any ship, the closer you are to your target, the more damage you're able to dish out (raven hits more missiles before the carebear warps out, tempest has a LOT more dmg when he's closing in on 20-25 km, Megathron... do I have to mention neutron blasters..., and then of course the apoc (even arma) with mega pulse.)
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.10 08:09:00 -
[3]
When using megapulse, you can as well switch to blasters and they do a lot more damage (~50% more). Sure it takes another 5-10 seconds to MWD close enough but that's worth the 50% more damage. And I am not talking of Neutron Blasters, I am talking of Ion Blasters and Electron Blasters (electron = dual heavy ion, they changed the name on chaos)
The Grid of the Apoc is not that much bigger, 750 grid per gun (difference between megabeam and 425 rail) is simply too much, that's 5250 extra grid for 7 guns!!! Besides that it has lowest CPU of all BS, even when mounting only lasers you run low on CPU. The 20% more cap on Apoc is a bonus where other ships have i.e. have 20% more damage which is definately more useful. Besides that, 20% more cap does not even out 200%-10000% more cap usage on the guns (yeah, they use almost one hundred times more cap than projectiles, but alone using 2 or 3 times more cap than rails is bad enough)
I actually think Amarr ships and guns should be redesigned from scratch as the ship bonuses all suck, the ships grid, CPU, etc. is unbalanced and the Lasers are ridiciolous anyway. I don't see much point in fixing things there any more, changing one would break another ...
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.05.10 08:34:00 -
[4]
You're able to mount hybrids on your apoc. I'd suggest the apoc has way to much cpu.
The only ship that has serious cpu issues, considering the weaponry is the Raven. |
Perry
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Posted - 2004.05.10 08:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Perry on 10/05/2004 08:47:27
Yeah boost Lasers or the Amarr Empire is only a big bad joke...
I dont even try to engage combat on Chaos with my Armageddon or Apoc fittet with amarr stuff (lasers) because the outcome is clear from the start...
Raven and Tempest bounce me to death with cruises or torps and tank armor or shild so high its no more funny, while my cap is allready half empty after the second burst of my beams... And the 7-8 low slots arent gotta safe my ass because armor tanking sucks my cap completly, and if i fit only guns and armorupgrades, my cpu is at 95% or so... so ive to waste slots to cpu upgrades to be able to fit more junk in lows... And med slots? what med slots? *g* A mwd will nerf my cap into oblivion, 100% defeat that means with beams... shild hardeners are useless on amarr ships and especially when your shild is allready at 75% or so... And dont even start with cap booster charges! ive watched a tempest and a raven fighting, they both lastet at least half an hour or so... LOL how many cap charges should i bring with me? 1000? should i install cargoexpanders on my apoc? I should enter the fight with a bestower i guess?
I think i have to train some projectil skills and equip missles... wait...I havnt got any missleslots lol (on my geddon).
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Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.05.10 09:20:00 -
[6]
Agreed that lasers need fixing. I can't throw around fancy stats and all but there's definately something about them that just discourages use of them... 
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fras
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Posted - 2004.05.10 10:51:00 -
[7]
Added to points mentioned above, there is no high tracking, high damage close range laser. Pulses don't track nearly well enough to be used for this purpose.
Close range combat is simply not an option unless you start using other race' guns, an amarr ship with lasers is a sitting duck to 50% of setups out there.
There needs to be some kind of bonus or reason to use lasers on an Amarr ship.
Atm there is none.
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NoHawker
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Posted - 2004.05.10 18:17:00 -
[8]
Yes it's quite simple lasers are just inferior where it counts the most. Lasers only good in PvE not PvP.
What are you going to do?
I'm going to kill them all sir |
Ashantee
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Posted - 2004.05.10 19:48:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Hellek
200%-10000% more cap usage on the guns (yeah, they use almost one hundred times more cap than projectiles,
Ok, i'm not gunna say too much about this, but i gotta say something.
The whole idea behind projectile weapons is that they don't use cap (or very very very little), but on the other side, ammo becomes a problem.
Trying to make any point for lasers by comparing them to proj (when refering to cap use) is pointless. under the same logic i could say my projectile weapons uses 10000000000000000% (or an infinate times) mroe ammo than your laser. see the logic?
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Caeneus
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Posted - 2004.05.11 02:33:00 -
[10]
Thats true Ashantee I think he was just pointing out that lasers don't have very many strong points unlike other weapons.
Ammo recently was changed to take up less volume, and with an averahe cargo hold of 600 there isn't a problem with taking ammo with you.
Also the initial outlay for large laser weapons is much higher than most other ammo using turrets (of course once you buy one you don't need to replace them).
I like Amarr ships, they are my favourite in the game but lasers suck. It should also be pointed out that there damage is also limited (of course this is because of the fact they use various frequecies of light) compared to other weapons so against armour they do less damage.
Can't think of anything witty to put here. |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.11 07:48:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Hellek on 11/05/2004 07:49:13
Ashantee: I also have a tempest so I know about ammo, reloading and all that stuff. It is simply plain wrong that you can not compare Lasers and Projectiles, actually you can compare them very well. When using EMP ammo, you have to reload once in 2 minutes, with Depleted Uranium even only once in 4 minutes, that is hardly a drawback. A huge cap usage is a drawback though.
And one single Crystal costs 1mill, for that amount of money you can get yourself a lot of ammo so don't even try to say that money for ammo would be an issue.
On the other side, the cap usage is a big issue though.
Almost all experienced players agree with me on the FACT that lasers suck.
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iNFERNi
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Posted - 2004.05.11 13:19:00 -
[12]
Edited by: iNFERNi on 11/05/2004 13:21:57
I trained my char for arma/apoc, only to find out that lasers suck 
especially with cap relay nerf it's gonna be an even bigger nightmare. Plz do something about them or wipe them all, you'll save some dbase space 
what's with all the hate on the amarr battleships, give them some lovin' 
___________________
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Brennan Mulwray
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Posted - 2004.05.11 13:29:00 -
[13]
Indeed I agree with that. Lasers pay a high price for not needing to reload. And certainly amarr ships have cap issues since they need most just for firing their guns. Also have you noticed that the only Tech 2 sensor backup arrays not in game are the Amarr ones...? Or did I miss something?
www.swc-eve.com |
illuminati
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Posted - 2004.05.11 13:40:00 -
[14]
I'll post my concensus here too then.
Lasers suck too much cap.
Lasers are PVE only.
If I said an armotanked Ibis can take out a laser Apoc I would be exhaggarating, but not alot.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.05.11 18:52:00 -
[15]
Lasers need a little bit of love. They were over-nerfed month ago. Just increase the modifier a wee bit, then people can choose uuber damage or cap conservation via their crystals.
We had an inactive player come back into EVE after a few months mostly away. He wanted to do a gun test using his preferred Apoc loadout. Despite all his skills having been trained while he was gone, he was hitting for 25 to 50% less damage than what he hit for in January. He was one unhappy Apoc pilot.
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Earthan
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Posted - 2004.05.11 20:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Earthan on 11/05/2004 20:28:19
I dont know about it as i dont use lasers, but as many pilots say it might be the lasers are now weak and need rebalancing.
However its just a small punishment for the long tachyon-era when anyone using other weapon then tachyon was looked upon as insane.
Ha ha ha ha (evil Gallente laugh)
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Cuisinart
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Posted - 2004.05.11 21:04:00 -
[17]
Lasers definetely need some love.
Vision without action is a daydream
Action without vision is a nightmare |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.11 21:04:00 -
[18]
I think we suffered enough now, I even trained minmatar BS and projectiles which as we all know, are technology of the worst enemies which the Amarr have (well, for RPing I say I spy on the minmatar and therefore have to be good at using their technology).
I think that CCP should be aware of it by now as the forums are full with posts about Lasers (must admit that this is partly my work) but I'd love to hear a response from CCP. not necessarily a "yeah and I will change this and that to fix it" but just a "okay, we are working on it already and will come up with a solution soon(tm)" would be nice so that we know that you care about it. As nothing happened for such a long time, I still don't know if I can be sure that something will happen, especially it would be very important that you (CCP) act before bringing the specialisation skills into the game.
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Xavier Perez
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Posted - 2004.05.11 21:13:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Xavier Perez on 11/05/2004 21:15:00
Lasers were fine before the big nerf hit them a few months back. Now they're most definately inferior weapons. They're also extremely predictable as to what to buff your resistances against.
I have an apoc for mining and killing rats, and a tempest and raven for when someone nearby needs to die. I'd prefer to use the apoc for everything though.
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Torvus Jay
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Posted - 2004.05.12 00:08:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Almost all experienced players agree with me on the FACT that lasers suck.
Actually from reading these boards it would seem that most experienced laser users dont think they SUCK but need a slight tweaking to be brought inline with the other weapon system.
Also you might want to think before asking for a weapon system to be "fixed" or they just might get "fixed" like missles.
______________
Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye. |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.05.12 00:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Hellek on 12/05/2004 00:37:51
you are wrong in both points.
They need more than a small change, more agree with me on that than disagree.
Sure they should not get an uber-boost but a slight tweaking would not change the situation at all and this is not only my opinion.
And what do you mean with "Also you might want to think before asking for a weapon system to be "fixed" or they just might get "fixed" like missles."??
Do you mean I should not point out unbalanced things and fear CCPs nerf bat instead? No I don't, the changes on missiles seems to be really good and so I have much trust in CCP that they will also do good changes to Amarr/Lasers. There is nothing to loose actually as I currently don't use Lasers anyway. Worst case scenario is that nothing changes (I mean even if they removed them from the game it would not change anything for me).
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.05.12 03:10:00 -
[22]
Agreed
Lasers need to be fixed. Amongst other things.
Mega pulse lasers are useless for pvp.
Projectiles have dual 425's, 650 and 800 repeating cannons.
Hybrid have neutron, ion, and electron blasters.
Lasers have the megapulse, which compared to the above are completely useless.
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Missa
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Posted - 2004.05.12 10:07:00 -
[23]
I love my apoc dearly...but Large lasers really are lame in damage and cap usage compaired to the other 3 main sources of damage in the game. Please give them some love.
--Missa
New Siggy to Come Soon(tm) |
Katchin
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Posted - 2004.05.12 17:49:00 -
[24]
lasers need a lot of love
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Soulstinger
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Posted - 2004.05.12 20:41:00 -
[25]
Aye. The Laser has paid dearly for not requiring ammunition (you call a million plus per crystal per weapon and needing at least a radio and multifreq per gun not needing to pay for ammo?)
The fact that they can choose only from 2 damage types makes them highly predictable, not to mention the 2 types are fairly useless against armor, makes for a large disadvantage.
The Cap usage is just rediculous considering your damage, wont talk about that much.
The grid usage is the same, rediculous for your end result. As an Apoc pilot I find myself staring in disbeleif in almost every engagement as my battery hits about 3/4's empty every time, not taking into account the drain from trying to shield or armor tank the just unbeleivably scary npc's. (not going to even get started on their unlimited cap/ammo bloodclaw from 90km away butts)
The fact that any other race gets such nice dmg and tracking bonuses from each level of BS skill yet Amarr recieves a negligable amount of cap regen and gun usage is disapointing to say the least. You truley dont notice it that much with several L lasers equipped, your still going dry sickeningly quick just firing weapons, not tanking yet.
Yes the Laser has paid, oh it has paid for the amount of time the rest of the weapons must reload their infinatly cheaper ammo than our quick crystal changes. I remember the days of the Tachyon Beam's utter superiority and belive it or not I was thinking they needed to be tweaked a bit lower because they needed no consumable ammo besides energy and shouldnt be that powerfull! Imagine my surprise as they received both the initial swing of the nerf bat then the backhand a few months back. There are a LOT of issues that I would simply BEG the devs to consider, but this is the Laaser post adn I wont hijack it. For the love of the emporer, please give lasers some love.
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Cuisinart
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Posted - 2004.05.12 23:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Torvus Jay
Quote:
Almost all experienced players agree with me on the FACT that lasers suck.
Actually from reading these boards it would seem that most experienced laser users dont think they SUCK but need a slight tweaking to be brought inline with the other weapon system.
Well, yeah we already know that ccp doesn't know how to slightly tweak. They just completely bulldoze and redo... a strange way to do balance changes that thus far has failed to work at all (imo).
Vision without action is a daydream
Action without vision is a nightmare |
Katchin
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Posted - 2004.05.13 14:06:00 -
[27]
from a LONG time ago:
http://www.bartho.fsnet.co.uk/eve.gif
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Grey Area
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Posted - 2004.05.18 15:14:00 -
[28]
OK to specify my own situation, I currently can only use medium weapons, not large.
That said the complaints about "1000000 ISK crystals" are a little bit misleading. With the NPC pirates I take on in my cruiser, crystals fall like rain. Mediums I admit, but I assume if I was using large weapons on bigger NPCs, they would drop at least some large ones.
Even if you DO buy one, that 1000000 ISK is a one-off investment. The crystal NEVER runs out or gets damaged, and you can switch them instantly instead of waiting for a 10 second period where you ain't dealing any damage. Ammo is a constant cost (and it ain't always as cheap as you guys make out), and a constant pain. Maybe I'll change my opinion when I upgrade to large weps (soon, my precious, soon) but for now the balance doesn't seem to be that far off at all.
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* I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. *
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.05.18 16:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Grey Area
OK to specify my own situation, I currently can only use medium weapons, not large.
That said the complaints about "1000000 ISK crystals" are a little bit misleading. With the NPC pirates I take on in my cruiser, crystals fall like rain. Mediums I admit, but I assume if I was using large weapons on bigger NPCs, they would drop at least some large ones.
Even if you DO buy one, that 1000000 ISK is a one-off investment. The crystal NEVER runs out or gets damaged, and you can switch them instantly instead of waiting for a 10 second period where you ain't dealing any damage. Ammo is a constant cost (and it ain't always as cheap as you guys make out), and a constant pain. Maybe I'll change my opinion when I upgrade to large weps (soon, my precious, soon) but for now the balance doesn't seem to be that far off at all.
A full set of crystals covering all ranges for just 6 mounted lasers would cost around 21million at 500k a piece. All dedicated laser users would need this type of set since lasers have crap falloff unlike 1400's which can get great shots in at 60km+ with there closest ranged ammo (EMP).
Your comment about getting them from npcs is so stupid i'm not even going to bother commenting on it.
Actually i think i will. BS Spawns do not rain out of the sky like cruiser spawns, they are much more rare and there are much more difficult to solo since you can be taking on 5-6cruisers, 10+frigies and a bs or two. The idea of killing npc bs's for crystals is so stupid, what are you going to shoot them with if you are there just for crystals?
Thought + post = success
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Redwolf
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Posted - 2004.05.18 21:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 11/05/2004 07:49:13
And one single Crystal costs 1mill, for that amount of money you can get yourself a lot of ammo so don't even try to say that money for ammo would be an issue.
On the other side, the cap usage is a big issue though.
Almost all experienced players agree with me on the FACT that lasers suck.
HeHeHe, dude, you are gettin ripped for your crystals 
Lasers do suck though
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