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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:13:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Jacque Custeau Do CSM members have staff working for them? Or will Vista have to re-write that document on his own?
I am sure he could ask for help, but otherwise he has to re-write it on his own. And all the CSMs have to do their "write up" on their own.
Then again, that "write up" seems to be "linking to forum threads"
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:57:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Quoting an "I know you are but what am I" post. Spoken like a true child. (I didn't expect you to reason your way out of it because you're wrong.)
How about you reason your way out of it? How about you get the logs which have been quoted here and in other places for your convenience and make an argument as to why this member was being disruptive?
Because the way i see it is the opposite. That when things didn't go your way you had a hissy fit and attempted to change the outcome in various ways. The first time you redefined the outcome of a vote that didn't go your way, the second time you badgered two CSMs to change their vote in a vote that they had already voted in!
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 17:37:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Anton Marvik Now you're just going to brush off the community's outrage by saying we "just want the CSM to fail".
Lol, don't make me laugh. A few dozen goon forum trolls and assorted hangers on is not "the community." Seriously, get over yourselves guys.
There is more "support" for this issue than there is for any of the issues you personally pushed onto the agenda under the guise of "community support"
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:10:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Goumindong on 09/06/2008 18:10:19
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
But moderators don't need to do that.
Begs the question "Why did Jade do that". Its quite clear that Jade editorialized, not once, but twice, the vote that Hardin put forward. Then, when someone questioned said editorializing, Jade got indignant that they were "disrupting the meeting". Bull****, the editorializing was disrupting the meeting.
Objections are only disruptive when they are frivolous. Was it? Certainly not. If its not(and it wasn't), then the disruption is caused by the person doing whatever was objectionable.
In both instances, the first when Jade editorialized a vote that had gone against her way and the second when Jade badgered two people who voted in a manner that did not suit her needs to change their vote on an issue she wanted passed it was Jade who was doing the disrupting.
Quote: Jade stated he already wanted to step down as CSM chair well before the incident
Then why hasn't Jade done so, the CSM document provides provisions for said step down and Jade had read the CSM document at the time of making said claim.
It seems, that when someone makes a claim in full knowledge of what that claim means, then they don't follow through on that claim when the time comes to do so they were lying about their original intent.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:14:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Um... nowhere is it stated any member of the CSM should be muting anyone. Least of all for having an opinion.
To clarify this point with something that was said in another thread which I had to correct: Here is the vote in question and context to the post.
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I had clearly explained the process in the previous meeting:
[ 2008.05.31 19:26:41 ] Jade Constantine > let me address the muting stuff [ 2008.05.31 19:26:59 ] Jade Constantine > As chair I would take the following steps on moderation: [ 2008.05.31 19:27:09 ] Jade Constantine > if somebody is disruptive I'd ask them to stop [ 2008.05.31 19:27:20 ] Jade Constantine > if they don't stop I'll eventually give a warning [ 2008.05.31 19:27:25 ] Jade Constantine > then a second warning [ 2008.05.31 19:27:33 ] Jade Constantine > then use the mute function outside of voting [ 2008.05.31 19:27:43 ] Jade Constantine > I hope these are steps that will never be needed
(this led to a vote on the principle of operator rights that confirmed that CSM officers would maintain operator rights)
Stop Lying liar.
This is the vote in question
[2008.05.31 19:31:38 ] Jade Constantine >Everyone in favour of everyone having op rights in the CSM channel say aye : [ 2008.05.31 19:31:44 ] Ankhesentapemkah >Yes for universal op rights. [ 2008.05.31 19:31:45 ] Inanna Zuni >Aye [ 2008.05.31 19:31:52 ] Darius JOHNSON >no [ 2008.05.31 19:31:55 ] Jade Constantine >Nay [ 2008.05.31 19:31:56 ] Serenity Steele >No [ 2008.05.31 19:31:56 ] Dierdra Vaal >aye [ 2008.05.31 19:31:58 ] LaVista Vista >Nay [ 2008.05.31 19:32:04 ] Bane Glorious >gonna go with nay [ 2008.05.31 19:32:21 ] Tusko Hopkins >Aye [ 2008.05.31 19:32:43 ] Jade Constantine >thatĘs a No then ...
So it looks like you are again redefining a vote to suit your needs. Note how there is nothing in that vote that says "The CSM Chairman retains OP rights and the ability to mute others" it simply says that this right should not be given to everyone. It does not say, anywhere that the right should be given to anyone, just that it should not be given to everyone
The discussion then moved on to the template document.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:29:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
None of the concerns brought up have convinced me that there was anything incorrect about the moderation decision.
Why not? There are two sides to an argument. "Nuh uh" is not one of them.
Quote: If CCP think I was wrong they can sack me
No, they cannot. There is no provision for that in the CSM document, did you even read the thing?
Quote:
if the CSM think I was wrong they can support my motion to make the Chair an elected position and then vote for somebody else
No, they cannot. Did you even read the CSM document? The CSM brings the issues to CCP. CCP responds. There is no ability to change the CSM document granted to the CSM.
The only way that the chair can be an elected position as current is for you to step down as you promised you would as allowed by the CSM document when you were running where the council would then elect a new chairman.
Why don't you honor your promise? Why instead do you choose to redefine the debate to suit your needs. There is no Fox News on these forums to parrot your reality Jade. All we have is the facts, and they disagree with you.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Goumindong
I am sorry, i was excluding the "eligibility" segment, since Jades post was clearly indicating that they had the power to remove CSMs at their digression rather than if they violated a pre-existing agreement which precluded their involvement in the game.
Though it should be noted that both the documents do not actually provide a manner in which CCP can remove a CSM, only when a player may not run. Technically, since a CSM is no longer running after they have been elected there is no way for CCP to remove them, though i doubt they would care with an EULA violation.
I'll look everything over later. I could have sworn there was some line in there regarding CCP being able to remove people.
I thought so too, but i went and checked and didn't find it. v0v
I could have missed it though
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 18:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Quote: Furthermore, you're stating that you'll continue to do the same thing if you feel that someone is getting in the way of what you have to say, and that you have no problem silencing members of the CSM for no other reason than to be able to talk over them.
Nope thats absolutely not what I said and you know it. Poor play Verone, very poor.
No, that is what you said and you know it. You know it because we have quoted you, in this thread, doing what you did. And you are quoted here in this thread saying you would do the same thing.
So either the record is wrong. And its not, its copy pasted from the logs and formatted officially by the secretary. You were lying when you said that you would do it again. Or you were not lying when you said you would do it again and Verone's interpretation is correct. Neither outcome is very flattering for you.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Farrqua If Jade would have just listened more to the group and less to hear himself talk, you would have had a very short and productive meeting.
Somehow I doubt if my comments in that meeting would add up to a substantial proportion of the 4hour running time. But continue with the silly troll-war. Its all getting a bit desperate. Maybe my parrot dies next right?
The guy who yells fire in a crowded theater doesn't do much running either, but that doesn't mean the commotion and delays caused were someone else's fault.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:55:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Goumindong on 09/06/2008 22:56:47
Originally by: Kelsin
Originally by: Arithron You have now put conditions on standing down as Chair?
Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that?
It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Arithron
This issue keeps coming up because it's something you said you'd do before being elected, and now haven't done.
I've told you what I said. And thats precisely what I am doing.
You deflected the question with irrelevant information. You didn't promise to look at the CSM document and then attempt to change it. You promised to step down if you had that position and then let the council elect its own. You failed to meet that promise.
I mean, how hard is it. You said you would do something and when the time came you didn't do it.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kelsin Edited by: Kelsin on 09/06/2008 23:00:49
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kelsin Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that?
It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc.
Oh, so it's posted as an mp3 or something somewhere? Link?
Probably not. Not all of them were recorded. Notice how Jade isn't saying she didn't say it. If you want to look in archives of this thread he was called out on it. You will notice in that thread Jade did not say he did not make the claim. Only refused to do it.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Arithron Again, I ask you where the passages are that give you the right to change the CSM constitution? I see NO evidence of submission of CSM constitution stuff to CCP for rulings, just proposals and votes in the CSM meetings. Still managing to avoid this one, since its proving a little harder than you thought to find those passages?
Lol, seriously, only way it can be done is for us to raise an issue on the topic (as I've done with the electable chair proposal) we'll present it to CCP and ask if we can do it. If they say yes "its done". If that happens I'll set down and we'll have an elected chair immediately. I really don't understand where you are going with this line of questioning.
No, seriously. The CSM document clearly states that the Chairman can step down and the council can elect a new chairman. The "way" it happens is if you buck up and step down like you claimed. Do i have to get the quote and the page for you like we've had show you the chatlogs proving you are wrong in the primary matter of this thread?
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 01:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Heartstone Almost all of it is abrasive comments aimed at Jade with no actual content other than that designed to annoy people.
Bull.
You will see people give a middle ground when there is a middle ground to give.
When Jade lies and refuses to acknowledge the facts of the case he will get called on it. If you are complaining that he is called on it then maybe you should talk to Jade about his habitual lying, ad hominem, strawman, and ignoring of all points which might damage whatever it is he supports.
We are long past the point where we can present new evidence and arguments. We have presented them in spades and all that has been done is for Jade to ignore them, lie about them, ad hominem them, and strawman them.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 02:08:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Goumindong on 10/06/2008 02:08:45 Darius's comments have always been towards the actions that the chair has taken to expand its power outside the scope of the CSM document. Are you are saying that it is right and proper to sit by and let the Chairman expand its power so that it can push through partisan agendas?
I suppose the meeting would have gone smoother had no one objected to Jades usurpation of power and corruption of the position of chairman by using it as a bludgeon to get what he wanted. But i doubt that the outcome of the process would have been better.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 21:19:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Goumindong on 10/06/2008 21:20:02
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 10/06/2008 02:08:45 Darius's comments have always been towards the actions that the chair has taken to expand its power outside the scope of the CSM document. Are you are saying that it is right and proper to sit by and let the Chairman expand its power so that it can push through partisan agendas?
I suppose the meeting would have gone smoother had no one objected to Jades usurpation of power and corruption of the position of chairman by using it as a bludgeon to get what he wanted. But i doubt that the outcome of the process would have been better.
Way to swallow the cool-aid.
Goons and Darius in specific are transparent as air on this forum.
Mr. JOHNSON was playing the righteous instigator from the start and especially at the tail end of that meeting.
How many times did he bait Jade near the end? Three times at least.
The double standards applied in this thread could win a trophy.
I am sorry i must have missed that, can you please point out these baits and why they were unjustified considering Jades prior action and disregard for the legitimacy of the council?(which has already been documented)
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 22:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
How are those "responses" !? Clearly those do not add anything contructive to any topic or the flow of the meeting AT ALL.
In addition, qualifying them as "tame" doesn't mitigate the fact of what they are. Flame bait. They are hooks for someone to catch and pull them into an emotionally charged conflict.
You can't spin out of that. Those are not "RESPONSES", they can only be categorized as "OUTBURSTS"
A man in a crowded theater yells "plural N word, there is a fire". There are many appropriate responses for this. One of which is to run, another of which is to object to the use of offensive language. Neither of these qualify as "furthering the discussion" and all might be considered "outbursts"
You are walking down the street, and a man next to you get stabbed. "Holy ****, call the police" is an "outburst", but it is also a clearly an appropriate response.
Many times when someone does something outside of the rules, appropriate responses certainly include actions that do not further the discussion.
Another example, closer to home. Responses that are /signed with a thumbs up in the Assembly Hall are not discussion, but since the assembly hall is a place where players are to voice their opinion, its an entirely acceptable response.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 22:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Not really interested in comparing apples and oranges Goum. Already had lunch.
Again, you can't spin when Darius has admited that those were already flaming outbursts. All thats left is to downplay them like he is doing now.
Its not apples and oranges. Do you not believe that standing up for the rights of disenfranchised representatives is the thing you ought to do when someone runs roughshod over the rights of another?
The analogies are fitting enough.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Depends what you mean by 'standing up'. Nothing I quoted could be construed to be working toward that goal. It wasn't even criticism, it was just bait to start a mud fight.
Since you like analogies I'll give you one.
Suppose someone accidentally hit your dog with a car and was bleeding internally. It needs to get to the vet. Instead you drag the driver out of his automobile and proceed to beat the crap out of him. Your dog dies due to the trauma. What have you accomplished other then venting your anger?
At any rate, I think Darius has said his peace and its at a point were we are agreeing to disagree.
This is not analogous. It is not because there is no fault of the driver. It is also not because the driver is not taking actions to disrupt the resolution of the matter.
In this matter Jade is at fault and is disrupting the resolution of the matter.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Wrong.
Jade did what he thought was appropriate to keep the meeting in order. People are punching the driver because they feel they found some angle to abuse him with.
No one attacking Jade is trying to resolve anything. They just want to kick him for the fun of it.
The only ones that can do something construtive at this point is the CSM by buring the hatched and clarifying were the line can be drawn. That or CCP stepping in.
Everything is just more **** in a sea of it.
Who are you to state my motives? I want this CSM thing to work and find it abhorrent that Jade is abusing the process at every turn. It doesn't matter if Jade did what he thought was appropriate. That is the entire point. What Jade did was not appropriate.
Everyone on the other side of the issue is looking for a resolution. The problem is that they are not looking for the resolution that Jade wants because the resolution that Jade wants involves creating powers out of thin air and letting Jade run roughshod over the rights of all council members.
Hell Jade even says it in flat language for us, "I assure you I have every intention of being the very best representative I can be for those players that voted for my manifesto and want the kind of Eve I talked about there."
There is another one here on this board where she flatly refuses to deal with anyone who doesn't agree with her.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats!
You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up.
Yes we have
Originally by: "Jade Constantine" WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pnuka
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats!
You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up.
Who is Kelsin?
The guy who thinks we should have sovereignty by sitting on gates. Another one of Jades blind followers.
This guy |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 12:04:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Goumindong on 11/06/2008 12:04:24
Originally by: Illaria Sorry if I missed it, but you guys still haven't answered the question many here have asked: Why don't you use a forum and instead insist on chat based communication, although it's general consensus that chats are a very inefficient method for the discussion of complex matters, and only get worse the more people are involved.
They are supposed to use the forum for the discussion threads. But are skirting the line by considering the "issue" threads "adequate discussion".
They are using eve-chat as a communication manner for the meetings because CCP and the CSM document require it in order to officially record the meetings(or something, but the point is that they don't have a choice in the latter) |
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