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Expansive galaxy not so expansive

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Ometiclan Republic University	Posted - 2008.06.25 15:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Zirconium Blade We do not need more space. Eve is designed so that large groups of organized people can do whatever they want. Of course these large groups want the best things. If you also want these things, you must organize a larger group. If you want to change that, you might as well make your own game because you will have to change every fundamental aspect of Eve to get what you want. This point is about restriction as in restricting the supply or space so population density goes up causing more conflict and more ISK loss. If you look into space... well the name says it all. It's SPACE! And lots and lots of it. There should always be more space... in space.. you know? A cap pilot should be able to jump his cargo space dry of isotopes and still have TONS more jumps to go. Because you know... ITS SPACE!! Whole empires like GOONS should be able to exists with out another soul within 100 light years... you know like the milky way? I mean to me this is the ideal. I'm not syaing there would be not fighting as I'm sure an empire like GOONS would start to fight itself. In any case, every sci-fi setting has this idea where you are an explorer most of the time and run into maybe one or two races every so often. In the case of EVE you would only go so far from your choosen home in search of more ISK rich areas. From this whole economies or "empires" can grow.. in many different places in space. This growth would prduce an EVE galaxy map never before seen as it would always be fluid. This idea needs some tie-ing of lose ends but I think this is what CCP should strive for.. not an EVE galaxy that is nothing more than one giant slum with space ships.
Marcus Gideon Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.06.25 15:58:00 - [32] Actually... limitations on "space" are very real in Eve. The introduction movie says plain as day... the old governments settled planets until they ran out of room. Then they turned on each other. It was only the discovery of the Eve Gate that saved them from warring forever. So us having limited space, and eventually having to fight each other over territory, seems to be exactly what CCP had in mind all along. Nano AFK/Cloak IED Storm Chaser
Ometiclan Republic University	Posted - 2008.06.25 16:56:00 - [33] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Actually... limitations on "space" are very real in Eve. The introduction movie says plain as day... the old governments settled planets until they ran out of room. Then they turned on each other. It was only the discovery of the Eve Gate that saved them from warring forever. So us having limited space, and eventually having to fight each other over territory, seems to be exactly what CCP had in mind all along. This is not in dispute. What I am disputing is whether or not that was a good idea to have in mind to start with... Being able to choose competition is MUCH better than being FORCED into competition. Now naturally, there are some real world technical issues that are placing limits on the EVE experience. However if it were me at CCP striving for the best SPACE MMO possible.. my gut reaction would be to always have more space.
Trestina Resheen Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.26 19:53:00 - [34] shamless bump.
Dmian Starline Engineering Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.26 22:05:00 - [35] Edited by: Dmian on 26/06/2008 22:06:38 If more space is needed, why is everybody lagging Jita and 0.0 is so empty? I'd say, the day that 0.0 space is all like Jita, then we'll need more space... If Eve had more space, all the people would still be gathering at one point, lagging it. ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Marcus Gideon Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.06.27 00:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Dmian Edited by: Dmian on 26/06/2008 22:06:38 If more space is needed, why is everybody lagging Jita and 0.0 is so empty? I'd say, the day that 0.0 space is all like Jita, then we'll need more space... If Eve had more space, all the people would still be gathering at one point, lagging it. Umm... Jita is the HIGH SEC trade hub of choice. and 0.0 Space will get you killed by a gaggle of bored Pirates. If CCP would introduce Interbus, which could deliver items purchased from Market, then people wouldn't flock to Jita for trade. You could store items anywhere, and sales would reach you in a short time after purchase. The reason Interbus should be used as well, is the flawed functions of Courier Contracts. I have tried taking up several contracts, but I'm always repulsed by the prices. People will demand 100bil Collateral, and offer up about 2k Reward, for hauling their cargo 20-30 Jumps. Basically, if the Reward isn't at least a recognizable % of the Collateral, I don't think anyone bothers with them. As for higher population in 0.0 Space... when there's more than a slight chance anyone can get there without selling themselves out to an Alliance or risking Gate Camps every step of the way... maybe it'll be more popular. But asking "Why won't anyone come play with me?" with teeth bared and guns locked on... I don't think so. --- Don't take my rantings personally. I'm more than likely arguing the point at hand, and anyone playing "Devil's Advocate" will feel my wrath.
Trestina Resheen Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.27 16:26:00 - [37] I suppose if CCP upgraded the current space to not include so much BAD space, that might help.. The trouble there though is that pretty much ALL of 0.0 space is controlled by a VERY LARGE gaggle of bored pirates, making it impossible for newer orgnaizing player groups to get space for themselves. I think we can add regions above on below the current galaxy. Someone once said the EVE galaxy is about the size of a globular cluster. We can make it more like one if it was a glob instead of a disk... since disk galaxies are far far far larger than EVE's current galaxy.
Hatch Minmatar Bug-Blatter Beasts of Traal	Posted - 2008.06.27 17:16:00 - [38] Originally by: Ashan Sul i'm not so worried about that. IF, at that time, 0.0 space gets monopolized completely, i'm sure CCP will think of something to unclog the above said monoploy and allow others to take a piece of 0.0 for themselves. Worst case scenario, they'll just use some kind of deus-ex machina to make things move I'm guessing you haven't been around too long. Over the past 4 years, CCP has been working to push more people out to 0.0 to try and elleviate the empire conjestion by adding enticements to 0.0 that pay well. only problem is the existing larger alliances just take them over and block anyone new from coming in. that is the way of it of course. what needs to be done is an expanse of empire space claimed for the races that is not settled, mostly low sec with a few stations in the high sec areas. This will allow more people to spread through out empire space, thus elleviating the strain on the Empire nodes. I'm not talking about 1 or two new regions, i'm talking about 3 to 5 regions per race.
Rogen DarHeel Caldari Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2008.06.27 20:36:00 - [39] Quote: I'm guessing you haven't been around too long. Over the past 4 years, CCP has been working to push more people out to 0.0 to try and alleviate the empire congestion by adding enticements to 0.0 that pay well. only problem is the existing larger alliances just take them over and block anyone new from coming in. that is the way of it of course. what needs to be done is an expanse of empire space claimed for the races that is not settled, mostly low sec with a few stations in the high sec areas. This will allow more people to spread through out empire space, thus alleviating the strain on the Empire nodes. I'm not talking about 1 or two new regions, I'm talking about 3 to 5 regions per race. I believe the original post called for as many as 12 new regions. I would agree tho that these regions could be empire low sec that allowed for other groups to get into the swing of 0.0 without falling victim to 0.0 alliance power mongering. However I don not like that right now there is A LOT of worthless 0.0 space, space that has no rats above 1M bounty and nothing better than nocxium in the belts. Moon and scannable sites are probably just as crappy. Having said that, I'd want the new regions to be full fledged 0.0 areas with enough regions released that not even GOONS could control it all. Course GOONS and BOB? .. We'd need A LOT more space.. or at least co-release a value upgrade to all the crap 0.0 space out there so the big alliances would elect to make money where they are at rather than try to control all the new space.
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.06.27 20:52:00 - [40] Whether it's "Low Sec" or "0.0" that's added, there's still the issue of the first 0.4 system you run into on the way. That's where most people stop venturing out into the beyond. Unless you pay a Rookie to fly across and report back, then not everyone is ready and willing to risk a Gate Camp for the chance to colonize outer space. --- Don't take my rantings personally. I'm more than likely arguing the point at hand, and anyone playing "Devil's Advocate" will feel my wrath.
Rogen DarHeel Caldari Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2008.07.01 20:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Whether it's "Low Sec" or "0.0" that's added, there's still the issue of the first 0.4 system you run into on the way. That's where most people stop venturing out into the beyond. Unless you pay a Rookie to fly across and report back, then not everyone is ready and willing to risk a Gate Camp for the chance to colonize outer space. Well 0.0 colonization is group move. Any 0.0 resident in hostile space will tell you not to go flying around alone. Besides one pilot going through a 0.4 gate camp can't do anything to colonize or claim or hold 0.0 space..
Astria Tiphareth Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.01 20:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Rogen DarHeel Well 0.0 colonization is group move. Any 0.0 resident in hostile space will tell you not to go flying around alone. Besides one pilot going through a 0.4 gate camp can't do anything to colonize or claim or hold 0.0 space.. I've not been to 0.0 so feel free to refute my notions, but it seems to me the key issue with getting people to 0.0 space is something to call their own (as a group). The people who want to be part of big groups doing stuff will already be gravitating to the existing large alliances. You can make one of three choices: not go, strike out on your own, or join one of the existing large groups. The first & last options are safest - the second option doesn't currently seem that alluring. From those I've spoken to that have tried it, you end up in one of four scenarios. You either become a sub-alliance, a subservient ally to a larger power, you get subsumed into a larger power, you get rolled over by a larger power and disband/retreat into empire, or if you're very lucky, you recruit and draw more and become a larger power. If you want more people in 0.0, either this needs to change (which would be quite game-changing notions) or you need more incentives & reasons to strike out on your own. More space or better use of space might help. Fewer reasons for huge alliances to sprawl and instead promoting smaller more coordinated groups might be another way. In short, more reasons for smaller groups to cooperate rather than large groups just taking what they want (which flies in the face of a sandbox for sure, given selfish human nature) would encourage 'new startups' more. Just my 0.02 ISK ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Rogen DarHeel Caldari Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:19:00 - [43] Well the thing about "striking out on your own" is said more from a corp perspective rather than a pilot perspective. A single pilot can do nothing but rat or mine in 0.0 .. making himself a very vulnerable target. A corp can deploy pos's, factories, ship yards and rat, loot, salvage and mine as well protect itself from other groups of similar size. However with 50% of 0.0 claimed and 100% owned (in an alliances view), all of a sudden, the above described corp story changes completely. There is no where this corp can go and do the above without being blobbed out of the EVE 0.0 galaxy. A galaxy is suppose to be huge, the entirety of which should not be controllable be a mear 20,000 pilots. Think about it. Suppose the human race had 20,000 ships warping and jumping around the milky way at EVE distances, how much of the milky way could we ever visit much less "control" ... A VERY SMALL AMOUNT. This is the point of this thread. It simply does not add up and our game experience is suffering because such a small galaxy is to easy to control. It needs to be bigger.. MUCH bigger.
Trestina Resheen Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:09:00 - [44] Originally by: CrayC Adding more 0.0 would NOT make room for new alliances. The older, more established ones, would simply take control of them as well as their current sapce. Sad, but true... This is exactly why we NEED to add more 0.0 ... !!! A LOT MORE 0.0 !! So much 0.0 that the big alliances CAN'T control it all. This way there will for sure be good 0.0 available for everyone as well as more room for the new players that are joining EVE all the time. Maybe this addition doesn't have to come in actual regions but as space pockets that can be reached in a new and unique way. That idea was proposed earlier but the current galaxy is just to small these days. We need more space!
Dantes Revenge	Posted - 2008.07.03 20:05:00 - [45] It all really depends on how it is connected to the rest of Eve. Making it so close to existing alliance held territory means that it's easy for them to move across and extend their hold. Making it a 20 or more jump trip across lowsec means it's far enough away that they can't possibly hold both at the same time. Any new areas should have far less choke points which reduces the territory that an alliance can hold and encourages more smaller alliances into the regions. ATM, many alliances hold territory that they have probably never even visited because it's way behind their choke point lines but the two or three existing choke points allows them to hold it all. With more and more alliances wanting to move into 0.0 regions, this makes it difficult. They are too small to take on the alliances that hold those areas and the existing alliances are reluctant to share their free space with anyone else. The system as it is now has created a 'dog in a manger' attitude which is keeping a lot of players in Empire space. Once they have gained SOV in these areas, they build two or three Titans and that's game over for a smaller alliance because they do not have the resources to fight against the SOV alliance so fighting for the space is out of the question. The only way is to create more regions or link up more of the existing 0.0 space to reduce the chokepoints and thereby reduce the area that existing alliances can effectively hold.
Rogen DarHeel Caldari Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:25:00 - [46] Seems reasonable. However the jumpgate in EVE pretty much functions as the battle ground. If you take out the choke points all you'll have left is fleets being spread to thin by a wild goose chase, as the target just goes from system to system in your area. On the other hand, It can stop blobbing somewhat if a fleet wants to catch a few gankers. You'd have to cover many more gates. But then the specialzed gankers will just gank the whole fleet one gate at a time. It is a problem but the bigger problem is that new players can't really play in 0.0 without joining one of 3 major factions, The North, GOONS and BOB. This post is about the idea that there needs to be far more space than these three factions can possibly cover. That's a lot of space, quite a cluster upgrade I know but I think it's about time for that kind of expansion. EVE is quite popular now. This must be on CCP's design board.
Nova Fox Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:34:00 - [47] devs stated it before if they feel it gets too crowded the can easily open up the eve gate. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
Rogen DarHeel Caldari Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2008.07.07 20:34:00 - [48] Originally by: Nova Fox Edited by: Nova Fox on 07/07/2008 17:50:05 devs stated it before if they feel it gets too crowded the can easily open up the eve gate. also drone space already been steamrolled by the larger alliances mostly the red ones. Can you get a link to this statement? I am curious about what was actually said.
Seara Arrodan Caldari Honourable East India Company	Posted - 2008.07.08 02:52:00 - [49] Is alliance size a possible issue? Look at the size of these groups here are the top 3 [OHGOD] 71 corporations 5,345 members [BOB] 13 corporations 2,884 members [PURE] 21 corporations 1,763 members How big is TOO big? CEO Honourable East India Company
Rogen DarHeel Caldari Rogen's Heroes	Posted - 2008.07.08 16:27:00 - [50] I think it's more based on how much ISK a system or constellation can produce when farmed constantly. A -0.1 system cant really produce a whole lot of ISK where as a -1.0 with say a promethium moon and a lot of belts can yield quite a bit of ISK. Without enough producing systems, players can't make what they need to pay for lots fo T2 gear to fill out the fleets. At this point, competition comes into play and the biggest alliances can hit the "I win" button when controlling high ISK systems. More space beyond what these alliances can control will take the competition out of space occupation. New players will also be able to experience NPC 0.0 without to much hardship from pirates. After tooling around in empty space, they can join big alliance or form a big alliance with those souls they encounter in open space and begin more alliance pew pew shoostings. :) More space is still the engine behind these ideas.
DasNara Aethelwulf Blackwater Syndicate ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.07.08 20:34:00 - [51] Actually, EVE is big enough...people tend to stay 'herd' together because they think it will make them safer. I would like several new regions just for selfish reasons, I'd like to go somewhere no else has been yet...like I would love to try to go into Jove space...but that's off topic. Anyway, there are large spots in Empire that there is no one around. I'm not going to say where, you'll just have to look, but I've spent the last few months trying to go everywhere in Empire and it's BIG. Are you thinking of soemthing like...I'm going off to x region see you in a couple of weeks? I guess that would work, the economy would take a while to adapt though But I would agree, I would like to see more, but only if it was maybe story related or something, some lost faction or whatever. I have thought this as a cluster too BTW. but, remember it's a cluster cut off from the rest of the area. Good thought though Ometiclan, but this game is still newish and in the next 5 years I'm sure they will add regions when we get to say 60 or 70 thousand online or 100. But if you were asking for exploration, get the stragtic maps and try going to the tourist spots, that's what I do, see how big this place really is. My left is in retreat, my center is giving way; situation excellent, I attack - Joffe 1916
Chris Sharp	Posted - 2008.07.08 22:53:00 - [52] Travel time to defend is the key. If it takes 30 Minutes to get from one end of your alliance territory to the other, space is too small. If it takes about a day, space could be ok. Why? Because defending a large empire would be alot more difficult. Thus more "fought over" space. "Pilot? What are you doing right, that everyone else does wrong?" 80% in Empire obviously means that the majority of players does not want pvp. Yes its a game that includes great PvP possibilities. But - oh my - there are actually MORE people who still would rather mine, rat, mission, trade, haul without getting shot at ever 2 jumps. shrugs I'd actually say: the empires should take a look at some of the "surrounding" systems to provide them with some ressources.
Jessica Arrodan	Posted - 2008.07.09 00:19:00 - [53] I kinda think you have a point hereI have been trying to get into P3EN-E from empire via Obefor 2 weeks now on my 5 tries at all hours all days I have been podded by a perma gate cam that never goes away. now im going to get people who say Just use another routewell ok fine its a long way around and waht to say those are not camped also? I think its kinda bull theres a bubbel around that gate that just does not go away. I say bigger even if it mean I pay an extra dollar or two amonth.
Trestina Resheen Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.07.09 17:59:00 - [54] Yep gate camps really suck, I'll admit. And it shouldn't be so easy to bottle up an entire region with a 20 man camp. Usually these camps don't really want to fight anyway. They just want to get HAHA gank kills. Because, if they really wanted to fight, they wouldn't bottle up a region.. where everyone in that region couldn't care less the camp is up since they can rat and mine and whatever... the gate camp would go into that region and fight in changing territiry againt changing hostiles and risk deaths.. No.. they won't do that. They'd rather camp a gate and kill one or two pilots that just happen to try to travel at that time. This can be elleviated by adding a few jump gate connections.... :P More space of course would also allow for more jump gate connections as well. :)
Nova Fox Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.09 21:27:00 - [55] Originally by: Jessica Arrodan I kinda think you have a point hereI have been trying to get into P3EN-E from empire via Obefor 2 weeks now on my 5 tries at all hours all days I have been podded by a perma gate cam that never goes away. now im going to get people who say Just use another routewell ok fine its a long way around and waht to say those are not camped also? I think its kinda bull theres a bubbel around that gate that just does not go away. I say bigger even if it mean I pay an extra dollar or two amonth. use your maps and scanners. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
chao226 Dark Entropy G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.07.10 02:14:00 - [56] Ok I belive this problem is caused by sevral issues the amount of 0.0 space is an issue but by far the cause of the current situation. right now the issue is large entitys have ctrl of 0.0 the reason for larger groups controling more space is simple. ITS BEEN MADE EASYER. before POS before the sov system and before stations got a huge bost to there sheilds a bs gang could go in and take over a system in a fraction of the time it takes now. the only counter to this was getting in ships and takeing the stations back. the sov system allows your to make your station invincible for 24hrs enemys need to come in and either blow your POS or place more than you have in the system. this takes a long time to do meaning the defending aliance can mount a counter meaning that they dont need to activly defed there space just show up if someone decideds to do something. this is resulted in groups controling more space themselfs. look at xetic I was a member it was a mainly industrial aliance that controlled a large area of space due to multible factors (mainly lack of pvp pilots) almost overnight lost our space. with the current system xetic could have held out for months. I think a balance between the old way and new sov system is needed. what I propose: 1. open up 0.0 no more choke points multible entrances 2. revamp the sov system to require more player input in defence (remove the POS from sov and leave it as a poor mans station) i would suggest a small tower or somilar itam that claims sov and requires no fuel aevery system would require these towers to claim sov. (i'll explain more on how this works tommorow but going to bed soon) 3. remove station invunrability and replace with its own guns and sheild resits basicly an aliance would require to claim sov in every system they claim creating a network they would designate a central point as thre capital and all would run from there. the closer you are to the capital the sronger your forces so your stations would have big guns and hevey sheilds makeing it very hard for attackers to seze control. the furter out on the outer ring of the aliances empire things would be easyer POS would cost more to un and be weaker stations a lot easyer to take control of. the sov claiming system would alos have varying strenghth based on location. combine this with the removal of choke points this creates a lot of fronts for an aliance to need to defend. I belive this would reduce the siz of current aliance claimed space. to further discurage larger sov claims there would be 2 factors in the size of a claimed terrotory. he larger it is the stonger the central systems are however at the same time the outer rings weould become weaker. forceing aliances to find the right balance for them. I think new reigons would be a good idea as well as 0.0 is feeling crowed eve is a victum of its own sucess. u no longer get the feeling of explorationwhen venturing into a new reigon. i rember when i first ventulyed into 0.0 back when CFS controled querios reigon. it relly felt empty and lawless more space may help bring that feeling back. but if more reigons are added soly to combat the current problem it may work short term but eventuly new superpowers will form and take them over so only a stop gap the problem causeing this needs routed out. well thats all I have atm I will make another post tommorow when i have time and am sober
Rogen DarHeel Caldari Rogen's Heroes THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:55:00 - [57] This is an ok Idea I think. The current sov system is a little slap happy. However, changing the current system means effect A LOT of players, while adding more regions initially effects no one. Look at the Drone space. Real fighting is just barely coming there now. Bob couldn't care less about the drone space where as changing the current sov system would make them cry havoc. That said I still think more regions will be a better answer.
Promithius Amarr Subach-Tech Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.07.10 18:18:00 - [58] I fully support the expansion of space, i have been saying for years as the population of the game gets larger the amount of space per head has reduced to almost nothing. you can quote 20% of the population are in 0.0 but trust me compared to the old days 0.0 is full to bursting. In my honest opinion the whole galaxy should be made at least twice if not three times larger. As for the argument that (large alliances will just take it over) yes to and extent this is true , but there is the golden rule or alliance members/systems held they can take as much as they like but they will become overstretched. i remember when you could travel through 0.0 and never meat another person and out of the blue you would arrive in a contested station system and it would be buseling, while im not suggesting a devolution of game mechanics , a return to 0.0 feeling dangerous and unexplored would be nice. But at the moment its so full its like empire but with no sec loss and WAY more complex politics.
chao226 Dark Entropy G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.07.10 19:09:00 - [59] the current sov system is flawed it means aliances need to do very little day 2 day defending to maintain ctrl of there space and only need to act when thetend by a large force. The system needs changed in a way to make large areas of space difficult and iniffective to claim and to make it a better option for the larger groups to scale down there space control. addikng new space is just a stopgap as the reason for todays issue is still in place. sure new reigons will resolve this issue for a while and its unlikely that w will see the likes of bob ra ect esctend into new space but other entitys will form there over time and do the same thing. what we need is the sov system revamed so smaller groups can irritate the larger ones on multible frounts this would make it a better idea to cut back space and reduce each aliances frount lines
Rogen DarHeel Caldari Rogen's Heroes THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.10 22:53:00 - [60] I dont think smaller alliances should be able to irrate larger ones. The hide and seek ganking crap that goes on now shouldn't even be allowed to happen but that is a topic for another thread. For this thread tho, one must realize that the active player base NEEDS empty space. And as far as todays clustering technology goes, more space can always be added. Its quite a challenge, as in the case of the drone space, to get everything working all at once but the addition of the drone space was quite successful. It can be done again I think. :)

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