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Comprehensive AF Proposal - Unique, Fun, Balanced

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VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 14:32:00 - [31] Edited by: VJ Maverick on 20/06/2008 14:33:00 Originally by: Draahk Chimera Jaguar Minmatar frig bonus 1: 7.5% bonus to small projectile turret tracking per level Minmatar frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to small projectile turret rate of fire per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Dear Santa. I promise that I will be a very good boy :) Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Merroki	Posted - 2008.06.20 18:51:00 - [32] I dislike half of this idea. Having a web immunity bonus suggested as a solution at all just screams out the inherent problems with the mwd module, hence everyone carrying super web. One aspect of the problem is as follows: in order to effectively web a ship with mwd, the web has to slow it down a LOT. This in turns makes any other ship go absolutely nowhere, and so people start coming up with hacks like this for ships that just don't work as a result.. Fixing the root of the problem instead of applying layers of band-aid is always better. Making ab in general faster on while actually removing mwd altogether from everything, would be a good general solution in this age where ships outrun many old game features and metrics, such as signature radius, missile explosion velocities, targeting ranges, grid ranges, you name it. A faster AB will make up for a lack of mwd, and the game interface and many other game mechanics (sig radius anyone?) will work a lot better with a somewhat boosted AB instead of mwd. Do you like your slowboating to the mission objective too?
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.22 05:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Merroki I dislike half of this idea. Having a web immunity bonus suggested as a solution at all just screams out the inherent problems with the mwd module, hence everyone carrying super web. One aspect of the problem is as follows: in order to effectively web a ship with mwd, the web has to slow it down a LOT. This in turns makes any other ship go absolutely nowhere, and so people start coming up with hacks like this for ships that just don't work as a result.. Fixing the root of the problem instead of applying layers of band-aid is always better. Making ab in general faster on while actually removing mwd altogether from everything, would be a good general solution in this age where ships outrun many old game features and metrics, such as signature radius, missile explosion velocities, targeting ranges, grid ranges, you name it. A faster AB will make up for a lack of mwd, and the game interface and many other game mechanics (sig radius anyone?) will work a lot better with a somewhat boosted AB instead of mwd. Do you like your slowboating to the mission objective too? You've used a lot of words here and I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into it, but crap, for the life of me I cannot figure out what your position is and what you are arguing against or commenting on. So you are OK with the AB bonus but not the web resistance? Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Kinkie Yuuki	Posted - 2008.06.22 10:54:00 - [34] Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 22/06/2008 10:54:20 Quote: Vengeance: Amarr frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to rocket damage per level Amarr frig bonus 2: 5% bonus capacitor recharge time per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Hawk: Caldari frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket velocity per level Caldari frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket kinetic damage per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Since these ships will be up close and personal, rockets would most likely be used on the hawk, thus giving it only 5% bonus to kinetic on rockets vs 5% bonus too all dmg on the vengeance!! And the velocity will be useless, rockets already go out to 10+ km.
Alex Medvedov Soliders Of Eve Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 11:34:00 - [35] Edited by: Alex Medvedov on 23/06/2008 11:34:41 Yes web resistance and AB speed boost could turn AFs into dangerous little beasts... I really like the idea and mwd penalty would stop AFs from interfering with ceptors. Please let it happen
Deadeye Devie	Posted - 2008.06.23 12:18:00 - [36] Edited by: Deadeye Devie on 23/06/2008 12:20:00 so far i love the ideas, and its EXACTLY what ive been saying for about the past 3-4 months....tho i would be a lil worried about 100% web resist....perhaps between 60-90% resists, thus making it possible to catch one, but at the same time still make them slippery. this way they will still be formidable dogfighters, yet not invincible.75% resist at max (15% per lvl if u were gonna do it that way) would still make them hard to catch, but not unfairly balanced. They are a great class, but we cant get too carried away with what we want, instead mix that in with what is fair and what gives them an edge as well as a weakspot for skilled pod-pilots to use to kill us. No ship should be 100% invulnerable to anything TBH and this even goes for small ships. apart from that....spot on! no tackling bonus, no tackling mentioned at all (thats intie and eas role) /SIGNED!!!! Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both.
Rachael Malace	Posted - 2008.06.23 17:26:00 - [37] Edited by: Rachael Malace on 23/06/2008 17:35:27 The Harpy is kind of left out in the cold here... While there are fits for the harpy that include blasters, I feel that the spirit and intent of the ship is as a long range sniper. While the bonus to AB make sniper fits stronger, the web immunity bonus makes little to no sense. Its bonuses should reflect the fact that it is a mini-moa, as its current bonuses do. The only modification I could recommend is a mass decrease, agility increase, addional PG/CPU.
Rachael Malace	Posted - 2008.06.23 17:48:00 - [38] Just as the interceptor class is split into two roles maybe the rolses of assault frigates should be split. On the one hand a Dogfighter role and on the other an Escort Role. Escort ships should be able to provide cover and support for their dogfighting breathren as well be able to escort transports that might be more susceptable to ambushes. Its role should be to act as a distraction to hostiles while the main force escapes. In order to make it a survivable role they should have 1 point of wcs built in, so they can escape. To make sure that they aren't used as a more survivable tackle, the use of scrams should be penalized. Taking the OPS chart... 1. Assault Ship Skill Bonus 1: 10% bonus to AB speed increase per level 2. Assault Ship Skill Bonus 2: ship specific 3. Role Bonus: +1 WCS 4. PENALTY: -100% to effectiveness of MWD. 5. PENATLY: +100% to scrambler and disruptor cap usage 6. Standard T2 resistances. 7. Standard T2 slot layouts 8. Retain mass from T1 hull
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:05:00 - [39] Originally by: Rachael Malace \ 5. PENATLY: +100% to scrambler and disruptor cap usage This is for the "escort", not the dogfighter, right? Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Zirconium Blade Ass Pounding Space Monkeys	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:39:00 - [40] I think, in honor of the guy from Alfa, we should rename our new improved ships to Asalt Frigates.

Rachael Malace	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:43:00 - [41] @VJ yeah I meant for escort not for Dogfighter with regards to the cap-usage penalty for scramblers.
Power's Urge Pixels Docks Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 21:14:00 - [42] There is NO "role" that would fit all the very different AFs. They should have a fourth distinct bonus, not even one of those that they have removed and replaced with something to make each of them less unique. What would be the difference between a "dogfighter" Harpy and Enyo, a Hawk and Vengeance ? So, no. Not at all, not in this shape and form. This would make them less interesting and all pretty much the same and give AF pilots no reason to even think about setups that work outside web range. They need to have their greatest weaknesses ironed out and built on their differences and strengths instead of becoming all the same ship with different weapons. Harpy and Hawk are long range ships, as is the Caldari tradition, and need to become better at that, not have any reason whatsoever to use them at long ranges removed. The Wolf is supposed to be a mid range artillery platform (with the correct bonus), hitting out to about 40km, which the Retribution can reach as well. The Ishkur can operate at 60km without drone links. This "dogfighter" proposal would reduce their versatility to a fraction of the current state because fighting anywhere outside 13km from your target would be a huge waste of potential - for eight originally very different ships that would all have to fight the same way or be pretty much useless. Again - any such extremely narrow "role" would work well for half of the AFs at most and severely break even the little the rest of them currently are.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.23 22:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Power's Urge There is NO "role" that would fit all the very different AFs. They should have a fourth distinct bonus, not even one of those that they have removed and replaced with something to make each of them less unique. What would be the difference between a "dogfighter" Harpy and Enyo, a Hawk and Vengeance ? So, no. Not at all, not in this shape and form. This would make them less interesting and all pretty much the same and give AF pilots no reason to even think about setups that work outside web range. They need to have their greatest weaknesses ironed out and built on their differences and strengths instead of becoming all the same ship with different weapons. Harpy and Hawk are long range ships, as is the Caldari tradition, and need to become better at that, not have any reason whatsoever to use them at long ranges removed. The Wolf is supposed to be a mid range artillery platform (with the correct bonus), hitting out to about 40km, which the Retribution can reach as well. The Ishkur can operate at 60km without drone links. This "dogfighter" proposal would reduce their versatility to a fraction of the current state because fighting anywhere outside 13km from your target would be a huge waste of potential - for eight originally very different ships that would all have to fight the same way or be pretty much useless. Again - any such extremely narrow "role" would work well for half of the AFs at most and severely break even the little the rest of them currently are. Ummm.. did you read Rachael's idea for an "escort" variant? That's the other "half." So there you go for your Wolves, Harpies, and Retributions. Besides, even an idea that would only fix "half" the AF's is still better than the current state in which ALL of them are completely broken. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Adago Vilon Wise Guys Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2008.06.26 14:28:00 - [44] Edited by: Adago Vilon on 26/06/2008 14:31:55 Edited by: Adago Vilon on 26/06/2008 14:29:54 100% immunity is not the way to go IMO. Fitting a web on an AF would mean that you can basically tackle what you like because you can fit a NOS and enough tank and DPS to deal with drones for enough time for everyone and their dogs to get on the target. In fact I would probably disagree with the idea that AF's are 'dogfighters' in the first place because inties fill that role already. As someone else has mentioned, inties can do a comparable amount of DPS as it is and are more agile, we don't need the AF's to be more like them. I posted a suggestion a while ago about a new role for AFs as mini-command ships that realise significant benefits for only frig sized gang members. Essentially, each race's AF can give racial bonuses inline or otherwise with their CS counterparts. Frankly, if I was going out in a frig roaming gang (as I do), I would definitely have one or two along for bonuses. Furthermore, they would be perfect for FW as they are readily accessible to lower SP characters. Linkage Please de-alphabetise local! Sort it by time spent in local. I don't want to be at the top of local anymore. Ta!
yani dumyat	Posted - 2008.07.01 10:35:00 - [45] Some very good ideas in this thread, especially the logistics AF mentioned above by Adago. The AB/anti web dogfighter concept rocks for one reason - blob breaking. It would be nice if a specialist AF group could jump a stargate, take out one or two key cruisers / frigs and then maybe be able to esape but only if you're clever. To this end i would add a cap booster ROF bonus otherwise you'll be neuted, unable to use the AB and basically as good as webbed. Another niche that desperatly needs filled is an anti nano ship. Personally i'd like to see a % powergrid reduction for assault launchers/dual xxx guns, possibly combined with a DPS nerf if this made them too powerful though personally i don't think this would be nessecary because 4x assault launchers on a hawk is still less than 5x heavys on a caracal. This would allow the AF to fill 2 roles: 1) Anti nano support as these guns are generally quite fast and precision light missiles are the only missiles that can hit anything faster than a slug. 2) Solo PvP / small gang. Currently the only ships you can solo in are nano's because any other ship will be popped the moment you hit a gate camp, it would be nice to have the option of flying a shield or armour tank instead of a speed tank. The 2 biggest whines in EVE are nanos and blobs so giving the AF some love could go a long way to solving this without swinging the nerf bat elsewhere.
Arvald Caldari Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.01 16:09:00 - [46] Originally by: VJ Maverick OK. Lets go with that. How can ~100dps be exploited to kill a BS? Maybe a noob flying "Fisher Price's My First Battleship" but not a normal BS. i pull nearly 300 dps in my af's and yes i have soloed battleships in them before, it is overpowerd to have full web imunity Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you *are* paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face)
VJ Maverick Caldari Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:07:00 - [47] Originally by: Arvald Originally by: VJ Maverick OK. Lets go with that. How can ~100dps be exploited to kill a BS? Maybe a noob flying "Fisher Price's My First Battleship" but not a normal BS. i pull nearly 300 dps in my af's and yes i have soloed battleships in them before, it is overpowerd to have full web imunity If you had read before posting, you would know that my proposal eliminates the T2 damage bonuses form assault frigates and retains only the base bonuses from the T1 hull. Show me which T1 frig does 300dps. Thank you for playing. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Arvald Caldari Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:21:00 - [48] Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Arvald Originally by: VJ Maverick OK. Lets go with that. How can ~100dps be exploited to kill a BS? Maybe a noob flying "Fisher Price's My First Battleship" but not a normal BS. i pull nearly 300 dps in my af's and yes i have soloed battleships in them before, it is overpowerd to have full web imunity If you had read before posting, you would know that my proposal eliminates the T2 damage bonuses form assault frigates and retains only the base bonuses from the T1 hull. Show me which T1 frig does 300dps. Thank you for playing. ah well i only skimmed through it, and it was nearly 300 with the hardwirings and skills i have i pull about 280+ dps in an enyo if i realy pour alot of isk into it (which i do alot of the time) Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you *are* paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face)
Mahn AlNouhm The Bastards	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:44:00 - [49] Originally by: Kinkie Yuuki Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 22/06/2008 10:54:20 Quote: Vengeance: Amarr frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to rocket damage per level Amarr frig bonus 2: 5% bonus capacitor recharge time per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Hawk: Caldari frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket velocity per level Caldari frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket kinetic damage per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Since these ships will be up close and personal, rockets would most likely be used on the hawk, thus giving it only 5% bonus to kinetic on rockets vs 5% bonus too all dmg on the vengeance!! And the velocity will be useless, rockets already go out to 10+ km. QFT. Give the Hawk some reasonable bonuses. Like, if you're going to pigeonhole it into kinetic damage, give it a 10 percent bonus per level. . . .


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