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Comprehensive AF Proposal - Unique, Fun, Balanced

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VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.19 20:10:00 - [1] Edited by: VJ Maverick on 19/06/2008 20:18:59 The AF Concept û The Dogfighter The Assaulf Frigate is a dogfighter. Frigates have traditionally emphasized small size, speed and maneuverability. Tank and firepower were always secondary considerations. Unfortunately until now, frigates have only been able to use their small size, speed and maneuverability to escape. The widespread use of webs has put an end to any notion of frigates actually using these attributes in combat. This is where the Assault Frigate comes in. The assault frigate is, by CCPÆs own design intent, a combat frigate. Thus, its unique advantage should be the ability to use the frigateÆs primary advantages û its size, speed, and maneuverability, in close-range (web-range) combat. This would make the assault frigate a true dogfighter. Implementing the Dogfighter concept. To effectuate the AFÆs unique role as a dogfighter, I propose the following: 1.Assault Ship Skill Bonus 1: 10% bonus to AB speed increase per level 2.Assault Ship Skill Bonus 2: 20% web immunity per level. 3.Standard T2 resistances. 4.Standard T2 slot layouts 5.Retain mass from T1 hull 6.Retain bonuses from T1 hull. These attributes would allow the AF to truly perform as a dog fighting combat frigate, able to engage at close range and use its maneuverability and speed as its tank. Balancing the Dogfighter Concept The following sa***uards are in place to prevent this ship from becoming overpowered. ItÆs still just a frigate û with frigate DPS û no additional T2 damage bonuses are contemplated in this proposal.Yes, this thing will shred T1 frigates, as it should. Yes, this ship will give a hell of a fight to T1 cruisers. And given the cost and the skill requirements, it should be able to do that. No, this ship is not a singular threat to HAC/BC/BS because of the low damage output. Yes, a SWARM of these ships is a threat to the above, as it SHOULD be, but one is not powerful enough. The ship is not uncatchable- The dogfighter is designed to be very slippery, not very fast. The use of an AB limits this ship to speeds in the range of 2km/s. It will not be hard to catch. It will just be very hard to hit. It is still vulnerable to missiles, drones, and other small ships, as well as ships that are faster than it. True web immunity requires Assault Ship 5. A pilot with assault ships trained to 4 only has 80% web immunity. Multiple webs will turn his ship into a flying coffin. This skill investment means that only true AF specialists will benefit from this ship's most powerful abilities. There you have it, folks. Flame on! Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Zirconium Blade Ass Pounding Space Monkeys	Posted - 2008.06.19 20:12:00 - [2] Alpha
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 02:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Zirconium Blade Alpha That's very nice but what do you think about the Dogfighter concept? Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Valandril Exiled. Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.06.20 02:51:00 - [4] Edited by: Valandril on 20/06/2008 02:52:15 Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Zirconium Blade Alpha That's very nice but what do you think about the Dogfighter concept? That you should spell it alpha ;p On another point, where came that hype about afs beeing immune to webs ? Coz 100% immunity should NEVER happend, i would say that 50-60% is max that is doable before beeing imbalanced. And then, hacs wanna buff too, coz afs will be able to solo bs. + It can be abused with 10mn abs + tank to get unbeatable camprunner. ---
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 02:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Valandril On another point, where came that hype about afs beeing immune to webs ? Coz 100% immunity should NEVER happend, i would say that 50-60% is max that is doable before beeing imbalanced. And then, hacs wanna buff too, coz afs will be able to solo bs. + It can be abused with 10mn abs + tank to get unbeatable camprunner. Well, the web immunity is the special role. And it's only achievable at Assault Ship 5. And I specifically said AF's will not be able to solo BS's because of their frigate level DPS. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Valandril Exiled. Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.06.20 02:59:00 - [6] Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Valandril On another point, where came that hype about afs beeing immune to webs ? Coz 100% immunity should NEVER happend, i would say that 50-60% is max that is doable before beeing imbalanced. And then, hacs wanna buff too, coz afs will be able to solo bs. + It can be abused with 10mn abs + tank to get unbeatable camprunner. Well, the web immunity is the special role. And it's only achievable at Assault Ship 5. And I specifically said AF's will not be able to solo BS's because of their frigate level DPS. Belive me, if you will take down ability for them to get webbed (ergo get hit) then they WILL solo bses, ppl will find a way to exploit it. ---
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 03:03:00 - [7] OK. Lets go with that. How can ~100dps be exploited to kill a BS? Maybe a noob flying "Fisher Price's My First Battleship" but not a normal BS. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 03:05:00 - [8] Besides, drones, missiles and other small ships are still a substantial threat to what is essentially a very slippery T1 frig. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Valandril Exiled. Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.06.20 03:06:00 - [9] Catching him in a belt while hes pounding 3 heavy rats, then this ABOVE 100dps will matter, + he will not be able to take him down. So i would say this idea is ok, but nerf this bonus to 60% max. ---
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 03:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Valandril Catching him in a belt while hes pounding 3 heavy rats, then this ABOVE 100dps will matter, + he will not be able to take him down. drones, neuts, etc can still fight off this ship. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.

Typhado3 Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.20 03:59:00 - [11] umm what's to stop someone from fitting a mwd on this ship and then having a unwebable mwd ship.... I'd assume mwd negates web immunity bonus. huggin and friends: total web immunity is gonna be bad for them as af's are probably also strong enough to give a tough fight to a huggin and kill a rapier/hyena easy. So how bout partial web immunity say 90%... the problem I see with this is how it's gonna be calculated if done wrong it will mean the gallente/amarr marauder is the new webber which would be pretty much be the last straw for minmatar support pilots.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 04:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Typhado3 umm what's to stop someone from fitting a mwd on this ship and then having a unwebable mwd ship.... I'd assume mwd negates web immunity bonus. huggin and friends: total web immunity is gonna be bad for them as af's are probably also strong enough to give a tough fight to a huggin and kill a rapier/hyena easy. So how bout partial web immunity say 90%... the problem I see with this is how it's gonna be calculated if done wrong it will mean the gallente/amarr marauder is the new webber which would be pretty much be the last straw for minmatar support pilots. ONE ship class with web immunity is not the last straw for minmatar support pilots. Not everyone is all of a sudden going to train Assault Ship to 5 and become a dedicated AF pilot. But those that do will fill a niche role as true small ship combat specialists and one thing that Rapier/Hugginn pilots would fear. Besides, a MWD Rapier or Huginn is still significantly faster than an AB AF - so they'd just have to run. The MWD issue is valid. Perhaps, the ship would be tweaked in such a way as to render the installation of a MWD impractical, difficult, or downright impossible. Or have the speed and web immunity bonuses contingent on fitting an AB. Perhaps a specialized AB module that only AF's would be able to fit? Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Aidan Ordway The Reappropriation Committee	Posted - 2008.06.20 05:44:00 - [13] Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 05:46:52 Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 05:45:33 Role Bonuses: Due to the complexity of an Assault Ship's weapon and computer systems, they are unable to handle the draw required from a Micro-Warp Drive and thus are limited to Afterburners. However, to compensate for this flaw, an experimental line of Afterburners has been developed to fill in this requirement for speed, granting a superior bonus to that of even Tech II Afterburners. Also, due to these complicated systems these experimental Afterburners utilize, modern webbing devices are not as effective against them as they are against publicly released versions. For each level of Assault Frigate, the strength of a webber is reduced by 10%, to a total of 50%, enabling these nimble frigates to retain some of their speed. These new ABs will be just like Covert Ops cloaking devices. -99% powergrid or CPU or w/e reduction for AS only to use these, and have them be absurd so no other ships can use them. :P EDIT: Darn, VJ Maverick beat me to it. But still, a nice idea to fix the presented issues, no? And considering as far as I know, Tech II ABs give a 150% increase (Correct me of I'm wrong), these would give approximately 175% to 225% increase. I'm not sure how much of an increase a MWD gives, but it should be a decent half-way point between the two, I think. Maybe a little less than half-way.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 06:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Aidan Ordway Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 05:46:52 Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 05:45:33 Role Bonuses: Due to the complexity of an Assault Ship's weapon and computer systems, they are unable to handle the draw required from a Micro-Warp Drive and thus are limited to Afterburners. However, to compensate for this flaw, an experimental line of Afterburners has been developed to fill in this requirement for speed, granting a superior bonus to that of even Tech II Afterburners. Also, due to these complicated systems these experimental Afterburners utilize, modern webbing devices are not as effective against them as they are against publicly released versions. For each level of Assault Frigate, the strength of a webber is reduced by 10%, to a total of 50%, enabling these nimble frigates to retain some of their speed. These new ABs will be just like Covert Ops cloaking devices. -99% powergrid or CPU or w/e reduction for AS only to use these, and have them be absurd so no other ships can use them. :P EDIT: Darn, VJ Maverick beat me to it. But still, a nice idea to fix the presented issues, no? And considering as far as I know, Tech II ABs give a 150% increase (Correct me of I'm wrong), these would give approximately 175% to 225% increase. I'm not sure how much of an increase a MWD gives, but it should be a decent half-way point between the two, I think. Maybe a little less than half-way. I like your development of my idea. I still think that 100% web immunity at Level 5 is the way to go since, as per my proposal, these ships are basically T1 frigs built for all-out close range combat. T1 frig damage. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Aidan Ordway The Reappropriation Committee	Posted - 2008.06.20 06:09:00 - [15] Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 06:12:52 Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Aidan Ordway Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 05:46:52 Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 05:45:33 Role Bonuses: Due to the complexity of an Assault Ship's weapon and computer systems, they are unable to handle the draw required from a Micro-Warp Drive and thus are limited to Afterburners. However, to compensate for this flaw, an experimental line of Afterburners has been developed to fill in this requirement for speed, granting a superior bonus to that of even Tech II Afterburners. Also, due to these complicated systems these experimental Afterburners utilize, modern webbing devices are not as effective against them as they are against publicly released versions. For each level of Assault Frigate, the strength of a webber is reduced by 10%, to a total of 50%, enabling these nimble frigates to retain some of their speed. These new ABs will be just like Covert Ops cloaking devices. -99% powergrid or CPU or w/e reduction for AS only to use these, and have them be absurd so no other ships can use them. :P EDIT: Darn, VJ Maverick beat me to it. But still, a nice idea to fix the presented issues, no? And considering as far as I know, Tech II ABs give a 150% increase (Correct me of I'm wrong), these would give approximately 175% to 225% increase. I'm not sure how much of an increase a MWD gives, but it should be a decent half-way point between the two, I think. Maybe a little less than half-way. I like your development of my idea. I still think that 100% web immunity at Level 5 is the way to go since, as per my proposal, these ships are basically T1 frigs built for all-out close range combat. T1 frig damage. What I think you should do is build a Tech II Frig (Seeing as I can't :P) and see how fast you can get it with a mere Afterburner II, and calculate how fast it could go with 15-25% more. Now compare that to say.. the tracking of a battleship, and see if they could track it. My idea pretty much states that if you have a webber that reduces speed by 95%, the role bonus of an AF would allow that to only reduce it by 45% at most, still giving it a hefty speed vs bigger targets, but still having them have to be careful. Dogfighting is all about being smart. EDIT: Also.. wouldn't this make more sense as an Interceptor's bonus instead? Or giving them something similar because their main purpose is to tackle ships and not DPS as much as far as I know. While AF are more heavy assault ships rather than pure dogfighters.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 06:18:00 - [16] Originally by: Aidan Ordway Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 06:12:52 Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Aidan Ordway Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 05:46:52 Edited by: Aidan Ordway on 20/06/2008 05:45:33 Role Bonuses: Due to the complexity of an Assault Ship's weapon and computer systems, they are unable to handle the draw required from a Micro-Warp Drive and thus are limited to Afterburners. However, to compensate for this flaw, an experimental line of Afterburners has been developed to fill in this requirement for speed, granting a superior bonus to that of even Tech II Afterburners. Also, due to these complicated systems these experimental Afterburners utilize, modern webbing devices are not as effective against them as they are against publicly released versions. For each level of Assault Frigate, the strength of a webber is reduced by 10%, to a total of 50%, enabling these nimble frigates to retain some of their speed. These new ABs will be just like Covert Ops cloaking devices. -99% powergrid or CPU or w/e reduction for AS only to use these, and have them be absurd so no other ships can use them. :P EDIT: Darn, VJ Maverick beat me to it. But still, a nice idea to fix the presented issues, no? And considering as far as I know, Tech II ABs give a 150% increase (Correct me of I'm wrong), these would give approximately 175% to 225% increase. I'm not sure how much of an increase a MWD gives, but it should be a decent half-way point between the two, I think. Maybe a little less than half-way. I like your development of my idea. I still think that 100% web immunity at Level 5 is the way to go since, as per my proposal, these ships are basically T1 frigs built for all-out close range combat. T1 frig damage. What I think you should do is build a Tech II Frig (Seeing as I can't :P) and see how fast you can get it with a mere Afterburner II, and calculate how fast it could go with 15-25% more. Now compare that to say.. the tracking of a battleship, and see if they could track it. My idea pretty much states that if you have a webber that reduces speed by 95%, the role bonus of an AF would allow that to only reduce it by 45% at most, still giving it a hefty speed vs bigger targets, but still having them have to be careful. Dogfighting is all about being smart. EDIT: Also.. wouldn't this make more sense as an Interceptor's bonus instead? Or giving them something similar because their main purpose is to tackle ships and not DPS as much as far as I know. While AF are more heavy assault ships rather than pure dogfighters. I have a full T2 fit Jaguar with AB II, one OD II and maxed out navigation skills. It can hit around 1100 m/s with no implants. As far as this fits into the scheme of other specialized frigates such as interceptors, i think it's complementary role. Interceptors tackle by disrupting the warp drive of the target ship. AF's are the ones that actually go into the fight. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Aidan Ordway The Reappropriation Committee	Posted - 2008.06.20 06:22:00 - [17] Originally by: VJ Maverick I have a full T2 fit Jaguar with AB II, one OD II and maxed out navigation skills. It can hit around 1100 m/s with no implants. As far as this fits into the scheme of other specialized frigates such as interceptors, i think it's complementary role. Interceptors tackle by disrupting the warp drive of the target ship. AF's are the ones that actually go into the fight. Hrm. Now add 25% to that, and then reduce it by 45% and see what it comes up with. If necessary, you could always have it reduce the affects by 12%, having it reduce a ship's speed only by 35%. I just feel that 100% is a bit too much, but nearing half or more would be more acceptable.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 06:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Aidan Ordway I just feel that 100% is a bit too much, but nearing half or more would be more acceptable. That's the thing. I don't think its to much for a ship putting out T1 frig level DPS. This ship will not be able to solo a BS. Five or six of them could do it - and I think that's fair. Large ships should be vulnerable to wolfpacks of small, fast attack craft. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 06:33:00 - [19] Tho whole idea of frigate based combat is speed, size, and maneuverability. The prevalence of webs have essentially made frigate combat in EvE impossible. The AF dogfighter concept rectifies that. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Aidan Ordway The Reappropriation Committee	Posted - 2008.06.20 06:48:00 - [20] Basing this off the values of your frigate: Base speed: 733 m/s AB speed: 1100 m/s MWD speed: 4031 m/s Specialty AF AB speed 225%: 1649 m/s Webber -95% AB Speed: 55 m/s MWD speed: 201 m/s Specialty AF AB speed -45%: 906 m/s Specialty AF AB speed -35%: 1116 m/s Looking at these numbers, reducing the amount taken from a webber by 50% would still allow a frigate to be flying at a reasonable speed. And I'm trying to have this be a role bonus so they keep their current bonuses.

VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 07:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Aidan Ordway Basing this off the values of your frigate: Base speed: 733 m/s AB speed: 1100 m/s MWD speed: 4031 m/s Specialty AF AB speed 225%: 1649 m/s Webber -95% AB Speed: 55 m/s MWD speed: 201 m/s Specialty AF AB speed -45%: 906 m/s Specialty AF AB speed -35%: 1116 m/s Looking at these numbers, reducing the amount taken from a webber by 50% would still allow a frigate to be flying at a reasonable speed. And I'm trying to have this be a role bonus so they keep their current bonuses. Oh man, please show your work. I'm not following your math. First off, my base speed is only around 490 or so. With the AB on, it is around 1100. MWD speed of 4000 is not attainable because of the ship's large mass. But, lets say that with the 225% AB bonus, this ship will hit around 1560. (480 + 225%(480)) Apply 90% web. Speed = 156. Reduce Web effectiveness by 50% (another AF role bonus) thus making it a 45% web. Apply 45% web to 1560 = 858. That's actually not too bad. Very reasonable. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.20 08:16:00 - [22] I like it! To quiet the concerns about people strapping a mwd on and being unwebbable at mwd speed rather then ab speed why not just a negative bonus? Like the destroyer ROF penalty? Like this: Frig bonus 1: Drone bay or gun tracking or gun optimal or missile velocity Frig bonus 2: Drone damage/hitpoints or gun damage or gun rof or missile damage AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive.
Aidan Ordway The Reappropriation Committee	Posted - 2008.06.20 09:05:00 - [23] Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Aidan Ordway Basing this off the values of your frigate: Base speed: 733 m/s AB speed (Base + 150%): 1100 m/s MWD speed (Base + 550%): 4031 m/s Specialty AF AB speed (Base + 225%): 1649 m/s Webber -95% AB Speed (AB speed -95%): 55 m/s MWD speed (MWD speed -95%): 201 m/s Specialty AF AB speed (AF AB speed -45% [10% per level reduction bonus]): 906 m/s Specialty AF AB speed (AF AB speed -35% [12% per level reduction bonus]): 1116 m/s Looking at these numbers, reducing the amount taken from a webber by 50% would still allow a frigate to be flying at a reasonable speed. And I'm trying to have this be a role bonus so they keep their current bonuses. Oh man, please show your work. I'm not following your math. First off, my base speed is only around 490 or so. With the AB on, it is around 1100. MWD speed of 4000 is not attainable because of the ship's large mass. But, lets say that with the 225% AB bonus, this ship will hit around 1560. (480 + 225%(480)) Apply 90% web. Speed = 156. Reduce Web effectiveness by 50% (another AF role bonus) thus making it a 45% web. Apply 45% web to 1560 = 858. That's actually not too bad. Very reasonable. I had forgotten to take the OD into account, so I was going off of the 150% increase of an AB II and calculated what I thought your base speed was compared to 1100. I've edited the quote a bit to hopefully help clarify things a bit.
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.20 09:14:00 - [24] Im bored so here goes a full list of what I had in mind: Keep current slot layot, reduce their weight to 10.000 kg or so below their t1 hull and make the bonuses like so: Jaguar: Minmatar frig bonus 1: 7.5% bonus to small projectile turret tracking per level Minmatar frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to small projectile turret rate of fire per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Wolf: Minmatar frig bonus 1: 10% bonus to small projectile turret optimal range per level Minmatar frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to small projectile turret damage per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Retribution: Amarr frig bonus 1: 10% reduction in small energy turret cap use per level Amarr frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to small energy turret damage per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. *Note on retri, move a low to a med slot, its a frig ffs, it needs a scram!* Vengeance: Amarr frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to rocket damage per level Amarr frig bonus 2: 5% bonus capacitor recharge time per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Enyo: Gallente frig bonus 1: 7.5% bonus to small hybrid turret tracking per level Gallente frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to small hybrid turret damage per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Ishkur: Gallente frig bonus 1: 5 m3 bonus to drone bay per level (base drone bay 50 m3) Gallente frig bonus 2: 10% bonus to drone damage/hitpoints/repair amount/mining yeald per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Harpy: Caldari frig bonus 1: 15% bonus to small hybrid turret optimal range per level Caldari frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to small hybrid turret tracking per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Hawk: Caldari frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket velocity per level Caldari frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket kinetic damage per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive.
the thorn Tres Viri	Posted - 2008.06.20 09:21:00 - [25] how about giving them a bonus like: - 15% less heat from all modules except MWDs per level AS
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.20 09:21:00 - [26] Hi, its me again. I did a mock-up of a jaguar fit. 3 OD II, 2 polys and a Gistii A-Type AB (to emulate the effect of the AB bonus would have on a t2): 1931 m/s. Yes, I have maxed skills. With plants that would be something like 2400-ish. A rapier usually goes about 5-6000 so no "instant death of the rapier".
Aidan Ordway The Reappropriation Committee	Posted - 2008.06.20 09:28:00 - [27] I personally think that the 50% webber bonus, inability to fit a microwarp drive, and the boost to Afterburners should be a role bonus rather than simply replace their current bonuses. Replacing their current bonuses will significantly nerf these ships and their viability for PvE and PvP. However, if they are given a role bonus that allows people to be more versitile with their fittings and not have to use a MWD, it wouldn't be an outright buff, but wouldn't be a nerf either. The alternative is always to fix the "nano problem" that I've heard so much about, but who knows?
Kenji Kikuta	Posted - 2008.06.20 11:34:00 - [28] Edited by: Kenji Kikuta on 20/06/2008 11:34:51 In MY oppinion, dogfight concept requires a new ship type. These ships will be piloted as FPS. For this concept to work properly, dogfight ships has to do very little damage to ther ships than dogfight types as they are "one man" ships in. One could describe them as pods with an extra hull. Their signature radius will be extremely small so that no other ship types than dogfight ones can actually harm them (exception being area weapons). This i would like to see in EVE as it would bring another dimension to the game.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 14:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Kenji Kikuta Edited by: Kenji Kikuta on 20/06/2008 11:34:51 In MY oppinion, dogfight concept requires a new ship type. These ships will be piloted as FPS. For this concept to work properly, dogfight ships has to do very little damage to ther ships than dogfight types as they are "one man" ships in. One could describe them as pods with an extra hull. Their signature radius will be extremely small so that no other ship types than dogfight ones can actually harm them (exception being area weapons). This i would like to see in EVE as it would bring another dimension to the game. Not so. You want to see how this ship will work? All you need to do is some basic frigate PvE, where you don't get webbed as soon as you load the overview. Get a Rifter. Outfit it with autocannons and run a level 1 mission. Orbit each target at 1500-2000, and let loose with the AC's. The ship turns and weaves, using its speed to evade enemy fire. That's the effect I'm looking for. What's this FPS crap? Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 14:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Draahk Chimera I like it! To quiet the concerns about people strapping a mwd on and being unwebbable at mwd speed rather then ab speed why not just a negative bonus? Like the destroyer ROF penalty? Like this: Frig bonus 1: Drone bay or gun tracking or gun optimal or missile velocity Frig bonus 2: Drone damage/hitpoints or gun damage or gun rof or missile damage AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Nice! This, I REALLY like. The MWD penalty brings it all together. Thanks for the input. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.

VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.20 14:32:00 - [31] Edited by: VJ Maverick on 20/06/2008 14:33:00 Originally by: Draahk Chimera Jaguar Minmatar frig bonus 1: 7.5% bonus to small projectile turret tracking per level Minmatar frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to small projectile turret rate of fire per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Dear Santa. I promise that I will be a very good boy :) Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Merroki	Posted - 2008.06.20 18:51:00 - [32] I dislike half of this idea. Having a web immunity bonus suggested as a solution at all just screams out the inherent problems with the mwd module, hence everyone carrying super web. One aspect of the problem is as follows: in order to effectively web a ship with mwd, the web has to slow it down a LOT. This in turns makes any other ship go absolutely nowhere, and so people start coming up with hacks like this for ships that just don't work as a result.. Fixing the root of the problem instead of applying layers of band-aid is always better. Making ab in general faster on while actually removing mwd altogether from everything, would be a good general solution in this age where ships outrun many old game features and metrics, such as signature radius, missile explosion velocities, targeting ranges, grid ranges, you name it. A faster AB will make up for a lack of mwd, and the game interface and many other game mechanics (sig radius anyone?) will work a lot better with a somewhat boosted AB instead of mwd. Do you like your slowboating to the mission objective too?
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.22 05:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Merroki I dislike half of this idea. Having a web immunity bonus suggested as a solution at all just screams out the inherent problems with the mwd module, hence everyone carrying super web. One aspect of the problem is as follows: in order to effectively web a ship with mwd, the web has to slow it down a LOT. This in turns makes any other ship go absolutely nowhere, and so people start coming up with hacks like this for ships that just don't work as a result.. Fixing the root of the problem instead of applying layers of band-aid is always better. Making ab in general faster on while actually removing mwd altogether from everything, would be a good general solution in this age where ships outrun many old game features and metrics, such as signature radius, missile explosion velocities, targeting ranges, grid ranges, you name it. A faster AB will make up for a lack of mwd, and the game interface and many other game mechanics (sig radius anyone?) will work a lot better with a somewhat boosted AB instead of mwd. Do you like your slowboating to the mission objective too? You've used a lot of words here and I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into it, but crap, for the life of me I cannot figure out what your position is and what you are arguing against or commenting on. So you are OK with the AB bonus but not the web resistance? Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Kinkie Yuuki	Posted - 2008.06.22 10:54:00 - [34] Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 22/06/2008 10:54:20 Quote: Vengeance: Amarr frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to rocket damage per level Amarr frig bonus 2: 5% bonus capacitor recharge time per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Hawk: Caldari frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket velocity per level Caldari frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket kinetic damage per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Since these ships will be up close and personal, rockets would most likely be used on the hawk, thus giving it only 5% bonus to kinetic on rockets vs 5% bonus too all dmg on the vengeance!! And the velocity will be useless, rockets already go out to 10+ km.
Alex Medvedov Soliders Of Eve Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 11:34:00 - [35] Edited by: Alex Medvedov on 23/06/2008 11:34:41 Yes web resistance and AB speed boost could turn AFs into dangerous little beasts... I really like the idea and mwd penalty would stop AFs from interfering with ceptors. Please let it happen
Deadeye Devie	Posted - 2008.06.23 12:18:00 - [36] Edited by: Deadeye Devie on 23/06/2008 12:20:00 so far i love the ideas, and its EXACTLY what ive been saying for about the past 3-4 months....tho i would be a lil worried about 100% web resist....perhaps between 60-90% resists, thus making it possible to catch one, but at the same time still make them slippery. this way they will still be formidable dogfighters, yet not invincible.75% resist at max (15% per lvl if u were gonna do it that way) would still make them hard to catch, but not unfairly balanced. They are a great class, but we cant get too carried away with what we want, instead mix that in with what is fair and what gives them an edge as well as a weakspot for skilled pod-pilots to use to kill us. No ship should be 100% invulnerable to anything TBH and this even goes for small ships. apart from that....spot on! no tackling bonus, no tackling mentioned at all (thats intie and eas role) /SIGNED!!!! Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both.
Rachael Malace	Posted - 2008.06.23 17:26:00 - [37] Edited by: Rachael Malace on 23/06/2008 17:35:27 The Harpy is kind of left out in the cold here... While there are fits for the harpy that include blasters, I feel that the spirit and intent of the ship is as a long range sniper. While the bonus to AB make sniper fits stronger, the web immunity bonus makes little to no sense. Its bonuses should reflect the fact that it is a mini-moa, as its current bonuses do. The only modification I could recommend is a mass decrease, agility increase, addional PG/CPU.
Rachael Malace	Posted - 2008.06.23 17:48:00 - [38] Just as the interceptor class is split into two roles maybe the rolses of assault frigates should be split. On the one hand a Dogfighter role and on the other an Escort Role. Escort ships should be able to provide cover and support for their dogfighting breathren as well be able to escort transports that might be more susceptable to ambushes. Its role should be to act as a distraction to hostiles while the main force escapes. In order to make it a survivable role they should have 1 point of wcs built in, so they can escape. To make sure that they aren't used as a more survivable tackle, the use of scrams should be penalized. Taking the OPS chart... 1. Assault Ship Skill Bonus 1: 10% bonus to AB speed increase per level 2. Assault Ship Skill Bonus 2: ship specific 3. Role Bonus: +1 WCS 4. PENALTY: -100% to effectiveness of MWD. 5. PENATLY: +100% to scrambler and disruptor cap usage 6. Standard T2 resistances. 7. Standard T2 slot layouts 8. Retain mass from T1 hull
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:05:00 - [39] Originally by: Rachael Malace \ 5. PENATLY: +100% to scrambler and disruptor cap usage This is for the "escort", not the dogfighter, right? Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Zirconium Blade Ass Pounding Space Monkeys	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:39:00 - [40] I think, in honor of the guy from Alfa, we should rename our new improved ships to Asalt Frigates.

Rachael Malace	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:43:00 - [41] @VJ yeah I meant for escort not for Dogfighter with regards to the cap-usage penalty for scramblers.
Power's Urge Pixels Docks Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 21:14:00 - [42] There is NO "role" that would fit all the very different AFs. They should have a fourth distinct bonus, not even one of those that they have removed and replaced with something to make each of them less unique. What would be the difference between a "dogfighter" Harpy and Enyo, a Hawk and Vengeance ? So, no. Not at all, not in this shape and form. This would make them less interesting and all pretty much the same and give AF pilots no reason to even think about setups that work outside web range. They need to have their greatest weaknesses ironed out and built on their differences and strengths instead of becoming all the same ship with different weapons. Harpy and Hawk are long range ships, as is the Caldari tradition, and need to become better at that, not have any reason whatsoever to use them at long ranges removed. The Wolf is supposed to be a mid range artillery platform (with the correct bonus), hitting out to about 40km, which the Retribution can reach as well. The Ishkur can operate at 60km without drone links. This "dogfighter" proposal would reduce their versatility to a fraction of the current state because fighting anywhere outside 13km from your target would be a huge waste of potential - for eight originally very different ships that would all have to fight the same way or be pretty much useless. Again - any such extremely narrow "role" would work well for half of the AFs at most and severely break even the little the rest of them currently are.
VJ Maverick Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.06.23 22:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Power's Urge There is NO "role" that would fit all the very different AFs. They should have a fourth distinct bonus, not even one of those that they have removed and replaced with something to make each of them less unique. What would be the difference between a "dogfighter" Harpy and Enyo, a Hawk and Vengeance ? So, no. Not at all, not in this shape and form. This would make them less interesting and all pretty much the same and give AF pilots no reason to even think about setups that work outside web range. They need to have their greatest weaknesses ironed out and built on their differences and strengths instead of becoming all the same ship with different weapons. Harpy and Hawk are long range ships, as is the Caldari tradition, and need to become better at that, not have any reason whatsoever to use them at long ranges removed. The Wolf is supposed to be a mid range artillery platform (with the correct bonus), hitting out to about 40km, which the Retribution can reach as well. The Ishkur can operate at 60km without drone links. This "dogfighter" proposal would reduce their versatility to a fraction of the current state because fighting anywhere outside 13km from your target would be a huge waste of potential - for eight originally very different ships that would all have to fight the same way or be pretty much useless. Again - any such extremely narrow "role" would work well for half of the AFs at most and severely break even the little the rest of them currently are. Ummm.. did you read Rachael's idea for an "escort" variant? That's the other "half." So there you go for your Wolves, Harpies, and Retributions. Besides, even an idea that would only fix "half" the AF's is still better than the current state in which ALL of them are completely broken. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Adago Vilon Wise Guys Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2008.06.26 14:28:00 - [44] Edited by: Adago Vilon on 26/06/2008 14:31:55 Edited by: Adago Vilon on 26/06/2008 14:29:54 100% immunity is not the way to go IMO. Fitting a web on an AF would mean that you can basically tackle what you like because you can fit a NOS and enough tank and DPS to deal with drones for enough time for everyone and their dogs to get on the target. In fact I would probably disagree with the idea that AF's are 'dogfighters' in the first place because inties fill that role already. As someone else has mentioned, inties can do a comparable amount of DPS as it is and are more agile, we don't need the AF's to be more like them. I posted a suggestion a while ago about a new role for AFs as mini-command ships that realise significant benefits for only frig sized gang members. Essentially, each race's AF can give racial bonuses inline or otherwise with their CS counterparts. Frankly, if I was going out in a frig roaming gang (as I do), I would definitely have one or two along for bonuses. Furthermore, they would be perfect for FW as they are readily accessible to lower SP characters. Linkage Please de-alphabetise local! Sort it by time spent in local. I don't want to be at the top of local anymore. Ta!
yani dumyat	Posted - 2008.07.01 10:35:00 - [45] Some very good ideas in this thread, especially the logistics AF mentioned above by Adago. The AB/anti web dogfighter concept rocks for one reason - blob breaking. It would be nice if a specialist AF group could jump a stargate, take out one or two key cruisers / frigs and then maybe be able to esape but only if you're clever. To this end i would add a cap booster ROF bonus otherwise you'll be neuted, unable to use the AB and basically as good as webbed. Another niche that desperatly needs filled is an anti nano ship. Personally i'd like to see a % powergrid reduction for assault launchers/dual xxx guns, possibly combined with a DPS nerf if this made them too powerful though personally i don't think this would be nessecary because 4x assault launchers on a hawk is still less than 5x heavys on a caracal. This would allow the AF to fill 2 roles: 1) Anti nano support as these guns are generally quite fast and precision light missiles are the only missiles that can hit anything faster than a slug. 2) Solo PvP / small gang. Currently the only ships you can solo in are nano's because any other ship will be popped the moment you hit a gate camp, it would be nice to have the option of flying a shield or armour tank instead of a speed tank. The 2 biggest whines in EVE are nanos and blobs so giving the AF some love could go a long way to solving this without swinging the nerf bat elsewhere.
Arvald Caldari Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.01 16:09:00 - [46] Originally by: VJ Maverick OK. Lets go with that. How can ~100dps be exploited to kill a BS? Maybe a noob flying "Fisher Price's My First Battleship" but not a normal BS. i pull nearly 300 dps in my af's and yes i have soloed battleships in them before, it is overpowerd to have full web imunity Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you *are* paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face)
VJ Maverick Caldari Splinter Cell Alfa	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:07:00 - [47] Originally by: Arvald Originally by: VJ Maverick OK. Lets go with that. How can ~100dps be exploited to kill a BS? Maybe a noob flying "Fisher Price's My First Battleship" but not a normal BS. i pull nearly 300 dps in my af's and yes i have soloed battleships in them before, it is overpowerd to have full web imunity If you had read before posting, you would know that my proposal eliminates the T2 damage bonuses form assault frigates and retains only the base bonuses from the T1 hull. Show me which T1 frig does 300dps. Thank you for playing. Telling your girlfriend that you play EvE is like telling her about your herpes. Timing is everything.
Arvald Caldari Aurora Acclivitous Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:21:00 - [48] Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Arvald Originally by: VJ Maverick OK. Lets go with that. How can ~100dps be exploited to kill a BS? Maybe a noob flying "Fisher Price's My First Battleship" but not a normal BS. i pull nearly 300 dps in my af's and yes i have soloed battleships in them before, it is overpowerd to have full web imunity If you had read before posting, you would know that my proposal eliminates the T2 damage bonuses form assault frigates and retains only the base bonuses from the T1 hull. Show me which T1 frig does 300dps. Thank you for playing. ah well i only skimmed through it, and it was nearly 300 with the hardwirings and skills i have i pull about 280+ dps in an enyo if i realy pour alot of isk into it (which i do alot of the time) Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Stealthbomber combat (or as i like to call it: Just because you *are* paranoid don't mean there isnt a invisible demon about to eat your face)
Mahn AlNouhm The Bastards	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:44:00 - [49] Originally by: Kinkie Yuuki Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 22/06/2008 10:54:20 Quote: Vengeance: Amarr frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to rocket damage per level Amarr frig bonus 2: 5% bonus capacitor recharge time per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Hawk: Caldari frig bonus 1: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket velocity per level Caldari frig bonus 2: 5% bonus to light missile and rocket kinetic damage per level AF bonus 1: 10% increase in Afterburner speed efficency per level AF bonus 2: 20% reduction in webbed speed penalty per level Penalty: -100% speed bonus from MicroWarpDrive. Since these ships will be up close and personal, rockets would most likely be used on the hawk, thus giving it only 5% bonus to kinetic on rockets vs 5% bonus too all dmg on the vengeance!! And the velocity will be useless, rockets already go out to 10+ km. QFT. Give the Hawk some reasonable bonuses. Like, if you're going to pigeonhole it into kinetic damage, give it a 10 percent bonus per level. . . .


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