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iudex State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.21 02:41:00 - [1] Since many of us Caldari don't have turret skills but are well trained in missiles, using turrets is not always an option. Warping to the nano-gang in a fast frig with a web turned out to be a problem, since the frig got blown up in the process quite often. So this weakness leads to an increacreas in nano-ship use, i'm talking here in particular about faction warfare and the gallente nano gangs (e.g. invicta, who do terrorize our fletts quite often). So what we need are anti-nano solutions for those of us, who don't have lots of turret skills. One idea that we discussed today is the precision cruise missile Golem. I just tested it on the testserver, with marauder skill at 4 and 2x exlosion velocity rigs the precision cruise missiles have an explosion velocity of 3124 m/s. This should be enough for the very most nanos (even if they go like 4500m/s the damage from that cruises should still be significant) and can be increased with a 3% or 5% expl. velocity implant (and by training marauders lvl 5). I'm not sure now how this might work out, but since those nano cruisers (which are the main part of the gallente nano-gangs) have no tank but a high sig radius (due mwd), the golem precisions should hit them quite hard, need diffrent setups though to know how many volleys needed to pop such a cruiser. Ideas might be to bring 2-3 golems who fire synchronized and insta-pop a nano cruiser in one combined volley. But ofc. this needs a good team, people that know each other, to bring a golem in an anonymous fw-gang, might be a bad idea (after all the golems still cost like 700m+), i hope people who have the isk can test how this works out in combat. Another idea (for the economy class pilot) is a caracal with t2 assault missile launchers and precision light missiles (exl. vel. 4500m/s), problem here is the lack of range, maybe people can check what ranges they get with range rigs and implants. If you have any ideas how to fight nanos effectively with missiles, please bring them up so we can discuss it and work out a solution, as for the moment those of us who can't use turrets well are quite helpless against that nano-gang-harassment. _________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.50 // Angel Cartel +7.17 // Minmatar Republic -8.49 // Gallente Federation -9.53 Faction Warfare Rank: Lieutenant Colonel
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.21 02:55:00 - [2] For that sort of isk buying and flying nanos with cheap implants, rigs, and a nice fitting would be better. It'll be a better investment as you'll live longer and be less likely to die. Golems like you've described may as well be setup as a very expensive remote rep bs gang. A very expensive rr gang that'll be jammed by a single falcon. Don't bring non nanos to a nano fight. It is more important to focus on flying a proper nano setup than worrying about your missile skills. Many nanos have launcher slots. Once you're flying a proper nano you can work together to web the target so the missiles will work.
Greckor Monmouth THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.06.21 03:09:00 - [3] suicide frigs/inties, lots of em, get a web on the nanos and you will slow em, allows the slower cruisers and whatever else you have to get into web range.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.21 03:22:00 - [4] Originally by: Greckor Monmouth suicide frigs/inties, lots of em Toss in a nano logistics and the ceptors shouldn't die. A vaga can't do much to frigs with logistics behind them.
Steamroll McGee	Posted - 2008.06.21 03:59:00 - [5] Please please please bring a cruise missile golem to the fight with gallente. The gallente federation approves of this idea and/or service.
Radcjk Dark Star LTD	Posted - 2008.06.21 05:55:00 - [6] Spread out... They have to orbit or strafe you or sit still and die. Spread out in a pattern of 7-15 Kms in a 3D area (like when a gang comes through a gate) and it gets tricky for them to stay in warp disruption range and not hit a web or 5. Not the best tactic in the world along, but combined with other things you can do it works.
iudex State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.21 06:21:00 - [7] Thanks for the replies, but that are not the solutions i'm looking for. We are not trained for nanos, nor do caldari have many ships that qualify for a good nano boat (slow in general, only few lowslots etc). I don't think we can beat them on their field of expertise. There are some good turret pilots and ew-specialists, but they are the minority, the vast majority comes with missile ships, since they have their skills there and know that ships well / feel comfortable flying them. We need solutions with missile ships. _________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.50 // Angel Cartel +7.17 // Minmatar Republic -8.49 // Gallente Federation -9.53 Faction Warfare Rank: Lieutenant Colonel
Artemis Rose Eleckrostatik	Posted - 2008.06.21 06:29:00 - [8] Originally by: iudex Since many of us Caldari don't have turret skills but are well trained in missiles, using turrets is not always an option........So what we need are anti-nano solutions for those of us, who don't have lots of turret skills. You trained missiles. Of all the things you could train, you picked missiles and you need to understand you have certain advantages for doing that, and certain disadvantages. You can't expect game change because your particular weapon system is reaping all the benefits in other aspects of gameplay and you are currently suffering right now. Missiles have a lot going for them, but for the sake of game balance you can't do everything. Working as intended. Invicta has you purely outclassed right now. You can't blame them for not wanting to fight on your terms. The nano craze is born from being faced by bigger blobs, its one way few can fight many with great success. A Rapier/Huginnin/Hyena would do it. Dual webs, maybe some target painting. Electronic Warfare is good. Cap warfare is good. Other nano ships are good. Maybe your golems will work. There are countless tactics to fight them. You made your bed when you trained your missile skills. You can probably say they have served you very well over the course of your Eve career. __________________________________________________ Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat.
JVol The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons	Posted - 2008.06.21 06:35:00 - [9] IMO< Nannos are a great addition to eve, they give not so good PvP'ers a leg up in combat. Should they be nerfed? Hell no !! Heres the answer(s). 1) make neuts and webs have more trainable skills. Skills to increase their range, their drain/web percentage. Sick of nanofgs?? Then you spend a bit of time getting your t1 web/neut to hit 15-17km before you overheat it. THEN when the gents who scream, "FIT A WEB/NEUT if you wanna kill nannos" actually have something instead of the useless hollow advice they generally spout. What good is a neut or a web that only reaches 12-13km when they orbit you from 19km plus? Useless!! It would make a one v one's in BC sized ships and smaller viable again. At this time only heavy neuts are viable, that means CCP is saying you need a BS to counter a nano cruiser. unbalanced in any stretch of the imagination Currently if your caught by a nano ishtar in your 'tank' ishtar( replace 'ishtar' with any other ship in the game if you like that can be nannoed, same outcome ) your just dead, your web or your neut you so wisely fit is useless,(unless of course your using rare faction gear) and the nano knows this. Ships of the same class and race should not be invulnerable to each other just because of their speed. 2) Give the missiles that were designed to kill fast movers enough love to actually harm fast movers, either outright buff them or add skills to further increase expl velocity ect. 3) Seems to me nanos are here to stay. like it or not. If you guys are going to get what you want, = game balance, stop asking for what CCP clearly doesn't want to give and start asking for what they what they are more likely to give... skill sets designed to ACTUALLY counter an obvious imbalance. Once a guys be-bopp'n thru the belts in his '*******' ( place any ship under BS here )and gets jumped by a nano version of his same ship AND his training and fitting ACTUALLY either help him kill or escape his nanno counterpart without having to have a hugin/rapier/hyena in his back pocket you will see this nanno trend dry up to a large extent. Now, BATHE YOUR WOMEN AND BRING THEM TO ME!! JVOL has spoken! :)
cianide pro	Posted - 2008.06.21 08:17:00 - [10] Edited by: cianide pro on 21/06/2008 08:19:05 By checking all the kills made by nano ships and checking how many nanos are killed ccp knows that nanos are out of balance. Or they nerf nano's ingame or a boost ( change bonus )on some other ships to have more ways to counter them. for example make the heavy precision missiles in combination with a nighthawk so that this will hit nano's with decent damage. Like this you create another way to counter this nano supremacy and on top make an caldari pve ship more intersting for pvp also.
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.21 08:22:00 - [11] Cerberus's. With Assault Launchers and precision lights there's you answer. 94 Km range, 8.5Km/s missile velocity and 4.5 Km/s explosion velocity. 200+ consistent DPS (with 2 BCU II's)at anything in range. Add 2 missile explosion velocity rigs if you are facing intys or vagabonds. bring 4 or 5 of these and a basilisk to keep them healthy and those nano's wont bother you much. And if you are fighting nano-Ishtars take some EM precision lights as EM is usually the lowest resist on any T2 Gallente ship. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
JVol The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons	Posted - 2008.06.21 09:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Tozmeister Cerberus's. With Assault Launchers and precision lights there's you answer. 94 Km range, 8.5Km/s missile velocity and 4.5 Km/s explosion velocity. 200+ consistent DPS (with 2 BCU II's)at anything in range. Add 2 missile explosion velocity rigs if you are facing intys or vagabonds. bring 4 or 5 of these and a basilisk to keep them healthy and those nano's wont bother you much. And if you are fighting nano-Ishtars take some EM precision lights as EM is usually the lowest resist on any T2 Gallente ship. At best you slightly wound the stupid ones with that, the semi smart ones just disengage. If you intend on killing them with any ship class besides hugin/rapier/hyena CCP will need to make cruiser sized neuts / webbers reach out to the orbiting distances of nannos. The introduction of t2 disruptors increased the orbiting range of nanos to 'safe' distances. An overheated domi web is ONLY 19.4km. BTW nice cerb setup, but a drake will do it better, over 8k exp velocity with 3 rigs, but you still cant kill a nanno cause you cant lock em down. For the sake of argument we should be talking about nano counters in a one v one setting. If you NEED more than one ship to counter the SAME ship only nannoed, that's just wrong man :) The devs stated that they nerfed WCS because they feel once someone 'commits' to pvp, they shouldn't just be able to bail anytime they want, and that's exactly why nanos are so common, even given their major weaknesses. Allow players ****ed off by nannos to train up web/neut skills that increase range and all of the sudden nannos are on a different, but even playing field.
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.21 09:45:00 - [13] Edited by: Tozmeister on 21/06/2008 09:46:38 Since most nano's are paper thin 200 DPS is not 'slightly wounding' them. no it's not going to kill them outright but it will force them to disengage and that's job done. Especially in a FW situation as the OP has stated as this allows you to control the space around a control point or bunker using caldari missile ships. The precision light cerb meets the Op's criteria in the best possible way. I did mean to edit my post and add drakes as an option but they are decidedly second best to a cerb even with rigs as the cerbs missile velocity and missile flight time are what gives you the range. A triple velocity rigged drake can only reach out to 59 Km max and it can't do noticeable damage to a ship travelling more then 6.5 Km/s Yes you can argue about the overall lack of missile counters to nano's but that's derailing this thread without answering the OP and there are already dozens of other threads about that topic you can add your comments to. edit:- typo +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
iudex State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.21 10:23:00 - [14] Ye cerbs are a nice idea, i dismissed the light precisions too fast since they have quite a short range, and thos nanos approach fast, engage and get back to like 100km, but with a cerb + velocity rigs + range imps it might actually work. Need to train cruiser 4 tho to test it _________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.50 // Angel Cartel +7.17 // Minmatar Republic -8.49 // Gallente Federation -9.53 Faction Warfare Rank: Lieutenant Colonel
Squatdog Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.21 11:09:00 - [15] Precision Caracal works fairly well and has a reasonable tank. The trouble is that: 1- It has sucky DPS 2- The Nanoboat will just run if the situation doesn't favour the pilot.
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.21 11:39:00 - [16] Originally by: cianide pro Edited by: cianide pro on 21/06/2008 08:19:05 By checking all the kills made by nano ships and checking how many nanos are killed ccp knows that nanos are out of balance. Or they nerf nano's ingame or a boost ( change bonus )on some other ships to have more ways to counter them. for example make the heavy precision missiles in combination with a nighthawk so that this will hit nano's with decent damage. Like this you create another way to counter this nano supremacy and on top make an caldari pve ship more intersting for pvp also. If ccp found them out of balance they'd been nerfed in FW patch or even trinity, nano has been going on for a year and have gotten a nerf in the past. In the past you nano'd battleships =D. I agree with precision missiles, they need to be buffed to do same amount of damage (percentage wise) to a nano that a turret does currently (Aka if turret does 400 paper dps and does 100 on nano then missiles who do 200 on paper does 50 on nano etc.). ______________________________________________ Euriti - I'll continue my nerd forum rage!
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.06.21 11:46:00 - [17] One of the problems with dealing with nanos is that some counters tend to be rather SP-intensive, relative to counters to other tactics. For example, Minnie recons and moar nano work well, but take a lot of SP to achieve. Also Logistics. Even remote-repping BS with heavy neuts is rather more SP-intensive than the typical FW gang of T1 cruisers and BC. The precision Caracal does work, however. Yes, its DPS is kinda feeble, and the range isn't great either, but it will cause damage. Ten Caracals, all firing Sabretooth Precision, will deliver up to around 6000 volley damage every 5-6 seconds. The Ishtar fit I just threw together has around 14000 EHP against EM. Thirty volleys, hitting over 12 seconds, would be enough in that case. However, this all assumes an Ishtar travelling less than 4.5 km/s, and TNP V for all our Caracals, and the Ishtar conveniently staying within ~40 km range, etc etc etc. But it's certainly better than just spamming Scourge.
cianide pro	Posted - 2008.06.21 11:47:00 - [18] To use light precision missiles ( anti interceptor ammo ) on cruiser size ships against cruiser size targets looks to me that the heavy precision missiles are not working like they should, THESE heavy precisions should be the ammo to be used in this anti nano instead the lights. maybe this is something where have to be looked into.
Clansworth Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.21 11:56:00 - [19] I would like to see webs scriptable... so you could install a web focusing script, and get double range, and halved effectiveness. New Prospector Class
Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.21 11:58:00 - [20] 1) Lob a stupid amount of heavy and cruise missles at them. 2) Warp in 111 Condors with mwd web and nano 3) Pop FW Solutions ltd You do lose 5 frogs or so for every nano hac you kills oc but that puts you 2.5 mill v 250 mill ahead so no biggie... (kag him and kill his pods and you can quadraple your lead!!!) Anyway rumor has it that 1 or 2 proper vorps are thinking of joining Caldari (due to the easy status req) in which cae you will be shown how its done first hand ;) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.06.21 12:28:00 - [21] You do realize there is no nano problem, right? A single heavy neut shuts a vaga down. Fit 2 on a raven and a web for f's sake. It's pretty easy. Lots of good suggestions already: rapier/hugin, curse, ecm, the list goes on. It's just another tactic and most of them hit like sissy's while moving fast anyway. You do also realize that polycarbs are 50 mil a pop in most places, and those fancy t2 ships took months and months of training and require a good deal of pilot skill to use properly? Nano's are fine. Stop whining. That said, precision heavy's could use a bit of an explosion velocity buff.
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.21 12:40:00 - [22] There's a thread here regarding precision heavys and them being broken. worth reading and bumping. To the OP, if you don't have skills for a cerb yet but are doing plenty of FW missions then the CN caracal now has an extra launcher slot and 2 extra low slots (for damage mods) over a standard caracal, and an extra rig slot over a cerb. You can even fit 3 explosion velocity rigs and use CN bloodclaws for even more damage in a CN caracal and still do serious damage to anything travelling upto 5km/s. Range is limited though, compared to the cerb, and it's tank is weaker. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Nanetha	Posted - 2008.06.21 12:41:00 - [23] Originally by: Angelonico You do realize there is no nano problem, right? A single heavy neut shuts a vaga down. Fit 2 on a raven and a web for f's sake. It's pretty easy. Lots of good suggestions already: rapier/hugin, curse, ecm, the list goes on. It's just another tactic and most of them hit like sissy's while moving fast anyway. You do also realize that polycarbs are 50 mil a pop in most places, and those fancy t2 ships took months and months of training and require a good deal of pilot skill to use properly? Nano's are fine. Stop whining. That said, precision heavy's could use a bit of an explosion velocity buff. Quoted for absolute truth.
Terminus adacai	Posted - 2008.06.21 20:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Artemis Rose Originally by: iudex Since many of us Caldari don't have turret skills but are well trained in missiles, using turrets is not always an option........So what we need are anti-nano solutions for those of us, who don't have lots of turret skills. You trained missiles. Of all the things you could train, you picked missiles and you need to understand you have certain advantages for doing that, and certain disadvantages. You can't expect game change because your particular weapon system is reaping all the benefits in other aspects of gameplay and you are currently suffering right now. Missiles have a lot going for them, but for the sake of game balance you can't do everything. Working as intended. Invicta has you purely outclassed right now. You can't blame them for not wanting to fight on your terms. The nano craze is born from being faced by bigger blobs, its one way few can fight many with great success. A Rapier/Huginnin/Hyena would do it. Dual webs, maybe some target painting. Electronic Warfare is good. Cap warfare is good. Other nano ships are good. Maybe your golems will work. There are countless tactics to fight them. You made your bed when you trained your missile skills. You can probably say they have served you very well over the course of your Eve career. The OP is not blaming game mechanics or blaming anyone. He is simply looking for some outside the box thinking to counter the nano tactic.... I have 3 mil sp's in missiles and a bit more to go, but have been working on turrets and EW for last 4 months to counter nanos. I'd suggest you find out whom in your fleet can use what and get a few of em out of their missile boats. The idea about spreading the force out sounds great as well. The nanos will be much less likely to make straffe runs and it makes calling the primary that much more difficult. Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.06.21 20:44:00 - [25] Dont spread out, you'll get bumped away from the fleet and popped one by one (or maybe they just wont bother bumping and primary the lone sheep) CCP could start with putting some serious buffs into precision cruise/heavy missles, enough to put the fear of god into the standard cookie cutter vagabond setup (how much shields does a t2 fit vaga have? 14k?) and with enough ships (say 5) shooting the improved missles there should be a good chance that they get a kill. Should those 5 ships fresh from their nano kill run into a small gang of inty's and ordinary cruisers they should get slaughtered ... rock/paper/scissors, isnt that what this game is supposed to be about?
Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.21 23:51:00 - [26] It would be unfair to expect precision missiles to suffer no reduction in damage against nanos. I think they should suffer about the same (or possibly even more) reduction that turrets do overall. Since turret damage reduction against nanos depends on transversal, which is relative, while missile reduction against nanos depends on their velocity, which is absolute, precision missiles could wind up doing more damage than turrets against nearby nanos and less damage than turrets against far away nanos. Or they could do less in both cases, that's fine too. Really, all that's needed is minor tweaks to the explosion velocities of heavy precision missiles. We don't want one weapons systems inexplicably useless against a commonly used tactic while all others have counters, but nor do we want missiles to just wtfpwn nano ships. I think one should aim for an explosion velocity that lets missile ships hurt nano ships enough that they don't particularly feel like sticking around to fight if the odds are against them, but not something that's going to just blow them out of the sky. Anyway, as much as it may hurt to be told to train another weapons system, I encourage caldari militia to train rails or ECM rather than waiting for CCP to 'do something'. Enough of those in a fleet and you'll be able to drive off nanos.
Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.21 23:54:00 - [27] Quote: Warping to the nano-gang in a fast frig with a web turned out to be a problem, since the frig got blown up in the process quite often. Yes, we'd need to use multiple very fast tacklers. Many would die, but hopefully the nano ships would be tackled enough for the fleets dps to take them down. Even if we lose about 5 tacklers per nano ship, I think we'd come out ahead. True dual polyed nanos are NOT cheap.
Squatdog Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.22 00:03:00 - [28] Precision Heavies are GARBAGE. A cookie-cutter Vaga does 200+DPS while orbiting at 4,600ms and 300+dps at 600ms, while rocking 8,500 shield with T2 resists. All this costs a whopping 130isk (no, you DON'T NEED Polys).
soldieroffortune 258	Posted - 2008.06.22 00:35:00 - [29] finally a caldari thinking and sharing ideas of how to stop "nano noob gallente" fleets, instead of complaining about how it should be cut out ah i remember all the convos in local and some threads on how the caldari were going to slaughter the gallente in this war, and all you have done is taken one measly system, while we inflict twice as many casualties with half as many personnel runs away, ducks for cover, and hops into his measly incursus to avoid being targeted and losing to much money from being killed
Suitonia interimo Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.22 03:51:00 - [30] Train for HEAT, and invest in a 40mil, 13km faction web (gallente navy / shadow serpentis). works like a charm and you can fit it on a precision heavy missle drake/Cerberus. with heat you get a 16.9km web which is plenty long for screwing most nano's over. ---

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