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Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.27 11:12:00 - [31] Originally by: Ulviirala Vauryndar Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Go to low sec or 0.0 and stop complaining. Rabble rabble rabble and rabble rabble, stop posting. Im sorry but eve isnt crowded if there are several areas that are void of population like low sec. If you think it is crowded, go somewhere else. If you dont like to go there, dont complain about it being crowded. Eve universe as a whole is big enough. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Hatch Minmatar Bug-Blatter Beasts of Traal	Posted - 2008.06.27 17:05:00 - [32] he's too chicken**** to mine in low sec
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.06.27 18:25:00 - [33] Originally by: Hatch he's too chicken**** to mine in low sec Given the poor tanking/escape ability of barges (outside the hulk maybe) can one really blame him? Combat mechanics heavily favor the attacker, and mining defenders are already at a significant disadvantage. Frigate/Cruiser/BS mining is a bit more viable but the number of times you have to jump from belt to station rapidly makes it not worth it. One could also bring a gang that MIGHT be able to kill the attacker before they pop your paper-thin barge but again it is not much extra reward (if any) requiring more people to accomplish. Every lowsec system I run through I see giant 'roid belts. They are so because no one mines them.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.06.28 12:05:00 - [34] Nerf highsec L4s. Those are virtually unlimited (agents will give more missions no matter how many people lag the system) and cause a significant influx of high end minerals with refined loot. Without readily available high end minerals in highsec , lowsec and 0.0 mining would become profitable again. And people would assemble mining ops as they used to.
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.28 13:21:00 - [35] Originally by: Stakhanov Nerf highsec L4s. Those are virtually unlimited (agents will give more missions no matter how many people lag the system) and cause a significant influx of high end minerals with refined loot. Without readily available high end minerals in highsec , lowsec and 0.0 mining would become profitable again. And people would assemble mining ops as they used to. Actually, it'd be better to not nerf the missions, but the loot. Atm, there is no point in manufacturing T1 ever because people can get better mods than what anyone can manufacture by doing a few crappy missions or killing some belt rats and getting meta/named mods If there were some extra cost to "repair" looted meta mods before they could be used, and no meta 1 T1 mods were dropped (only drone compound style loot), then there might be more demand for T1 manu, more opportunities for manufacturers and more demand for minerals --- But the real problem is security. It is a lot harder to create than destroy in Eve and most miners are, quite rightly, doing risk vs reward and cost analysis on mining in low sec and seeing it just isn't worth it
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.06.28 17:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Hatch he's too chicken**** to mine in low sec Actually with the price of trit its mostly simply smarter to mine in high sec as you earn more cash with much less risk and a lot less hassle.
Creh Ester	Posted - 2008.06.29 12:30:00 - [37] Originally by: Stakhanov Nerf highsec L4s. Those are virtually unlimited (agents will give more missions no matter how many people lag the system) and cause a significant influx of high end minerals with refined loot. Without readily available high end minerals in highsec , lowsec and 0.0 mining would become profitable again. And people would assemble mining ops as they used to. That 0.0 mining would become more profitable again seems credible to me. But I'm very unsure why that is relevant at all or to what it is relevant. As for lowsec mining, that's IMO nonsens. A few years ago I was on some well equipped and well organized alliance lowsec mining ops. It is my perception that changing game mechanics & economics have made such operations even less viable since. Anyway: Mining yield is down all the way to something between 10% and 50% for the invested time, due to the mining operation becoming disturbed. Factor in that you need a lot of pilots in combat support instead of miners & haulers. Finally add the cost of a few ship losses. Result: Crap! A lowsec operation inevitably attracts attention. It's an excellent opportunity for lots of PvP fun. People quickly call around and assemble a party. They will mostly know exactly the predispositions and what they need. (This is strictly not theoretically relevant but to make matters worse: The combat support team will fairly early become bored and decide to go ratting. "Call us if there is a need". Then some 15 minutes into the ratting they will decide that there is no harm in checking out the next system. ...And next...) Realistic lowsec mining is IMO something else. Lowprofile, quiet single man operations in affordable getaway cruisers. But then income/time is on a completely different scale. To ask that older EVE players should do that with their game time is simply crazy. I find a lot of the risk/reward suggestions popping up in many forum threads utterly unrealistic. I don't understand why. What is lacking in peoples thinking ability? Are they so blinded by their own brilliant understanding of the risk/reward concept that they don't realize that there has to be a reward at all? It often seems so. In real life we have to work to support ourself. The same is true about EVE. (Unfortunately EVE is founded on a grind play concept). But while we have to live in RL, we don't have to play EVE. There has to be a reason. People who think they can move players around in EVE with the more shallower risk/reward schemes often appears to have completely forgotten that. They seem to assume that players will be forced to do whatever to be able to sustain themselves. Already here we have an enormous failure of EVE. But that is a very big subject and not directly on topic so I'll just leave you with one thing to pounder: One of very few things I've found actually enjoyable to do for its own sake is to fly L2 missions in a T1 frig. Do I do it? - No! I need to forward myself so I need to do L2s quickly so I can raise my standings with the corp. Or I need to do L4s to make isk. Or something else. The needs that EVE already put on game time are so great there is little room for luxury play. And every change that CCP makes since and including Revelation seems to make that situation worse! Why? Have they lost their minds? What are they aiming for?
sliver 0xD exiles. The Kadeshi	Posted - 2008.06.29 14:25:00 - [38] Originally by: Ulviirala Vauryndar Now I know there are classes that makes asteroid growth one, two or three times a week. I have yet to visit a systems with more than three times a week. These days will be Monday, Friday and Wednesday during downtime. they respawn after a set time. not after dt but also in the midle of the game. time it right and you should be able to farm it beter. also the hole object of roids running out is to get more players into 0.0 and lowsec. all the good experienced players are still mining the roids that are ment for the new players. you are all complaining about it but you should thank yourselfs for it.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.06.29 16:37:00 - [39] Originally by: Creh Ester As for lowsec mining, that's IMO nonsens. A few years ago I was on some well equipped and well organized alliance lowsec mining ops. It is my perception that changing game mechanics & economics have made such operations even less viable since. Anyway: Mining yield is down all the way to something between 10% and 50% for the invested time, due to the mining operation becoming disturbed. Factor in that you need a lot of pilots in combat support instead of miners & haulers. Finally add the cost of a few ship losses. Result: Crap! A lowsec operation inevitably attracts attention. It's an excellent opportunity for lots of PvP fun. People quickly call around and assemble a party. They will mostly know exactly the predispositions and what they need. (This is strictly not theoretically relevant but to make matters worse: The combat support team will fairly early become bored and decide to go ratting. "Call us if there is a need". Then some 15 minutes into the ratting they will decide that there is no harm in checking out the next system. ...And next...) I think the idea is that you establish an alliance with a decent intel channel and try to take over and control an area of lowsec. However then you might as well go for 0.0 where the profits are much better and where the tools to control an area of space is better.
Creh Ester	Posted - 2008.06.29 17:24:00 - [40] Originally by: sliver 0xD also the hole object of roids running out is to get more players into 0.0 and lowsec. all the good experienced players are still mining the roids that are ment for the new players. Maybe. I certainly don't understand CCP. And the case that I think you might be right well illustrates that. Because if you're right it kinda raises more questions than it answers. If limiting spawning in highsec means the experienced players vacuum up all the roids that are meant for the new players: - Why is that a good thing for EVE? If limiting spawning means that there will be an 'early bird' competition for time slots, that will heavily discriminate against certain players (time zones, job, etc): - Why is that a good thing for EVE? Why would less highsec ore mean that more players would move into 0.0? Because they would earn better? Industry is limited by either absolute available financing or minerals. In either case: limiting trit availability will not only raise value of trit but also lower value of hi grade minerals. Because they're not needed to the same extent any more. So limiting highsec ore won't necessarily shift more earning advantage into 0.0. And you already earn much better in 0.0 than in hisec. It appears that earning isk is not the sole motivating factor. And that there is some kind of rejection of 0.0 gameplay. From that aspect it's hard to undestand why reducing ore in hisec would cause people to move. And is getting more people into 0.0 the only thing CCP have got going for themselves? Why is that the miracle medicine that will solve all of EVE's problems?

Jawas Gallente	Posted - 2008.06.29 17:43:00 - [41] With low respawn rates and far less profit from mining in general than most other trades, it's hard to get newer players into mining now. Who wants to sit in a belt for 10 million per hour at most when they could be earning twice that doing missions or ratting? A freshly respawned belt after being mined out completely takes me a little over an hour to mine out again. Total return is just 12 million isk and that's considering I have perfect refine skills and good standings so the station doesn't take any. You can imagine the disappointmet of a new player earning half that due to poor refine skills and low standings while their friends earn twice that even if they are only doing lvl3 missions. It's really just pushing mining into the macro bot hands. I bet the macro users are rubbing their hands with glee at the ever decreasing number of real player miners out there taking the roids from the belts.
Creh Ester	Posted - 2008.06.29 17:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Esmenet I think the idea is that you establish an alliance with a decent intel channel and try to take over and control an area of lowsec. Been there, done that. Before Revelation that was possible (and fun) thanks to the 5/10 plexes. The earnings you could get from those made all the wasted hours and vast losses acceptable. But even then you couldn't accomplish security enough for undisturbed mining. Being constantly present in force and trying to control a system works much as a standing invitation for PvP parties. And they always get to prepare themselves well and decide time and place. But it was possible. Thanks to the 5/10 plexes. Not for mining. But for plex farming. I have actually seen CCP suggest that lowsec should be policed by players. But that represents such total cluelessness about their own game that it's way off the scale of any stupiditymeter. It simply can't be successful with current mechanics and economics. Quote: However then you might as well go for 0.0 where the profits are much better and where the tools to control an area of space is better. Agreed. A completely different thing.
Feilamya Minmatar Pelennor Swarm Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.06.29 20:42:00 - [43] Asteroids grow? Damn, you must have been watching them for HOURS!
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.06.30 06:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Stakhanov Nerf highsec L4s. Since missions recieved the added bonus of salvage material... maybe it really is time to cut down the loot (or remove it entirely)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.06.30 18:57:00 - [45] Originally by: Nekopyat Originally by: Stakhanov Nerf highsec L4s. Since missions recieved the added bonus of salvage material... maybe it really is time to cut down the loot (or remove it entirely) "The added bonus of salvage" was introduced at the expense of lesser quality loot and at the added cost of more time (salvage is way slower than looting). Then the loot was made larger, some refining nerfed and the faction loot in mission nefed again. TY for suggesting to nerf it again.
Ellein Adall	Posted - 2008.07.01 04:54:00 - [46] What about changing the trit values in the ore? I have noticed the amount of trit in a belt is that of 10mil trit and thats in a lowsec rarely mined belt. BTW spent all day with a friend in lowsec system and mined wihtout any harm. I just warp to a SS and another and another till they leave or log after 5 min of running around. most lose interest even if you are in a hulk.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.01 06:34:00 - [47] Originally by: Ellein Adall Edited by: Ellein Adall on 01/07/2008 05:31:52 What about changing the trit values in the ore? I have noticed the amount of trit in a belt is that of 12mil trit and thats in a lowsec rarely mined belt. BTW spent all day with a friend in lowsec system and mined without any harm. I just warp to a SS and another and another till they leave or log after 5 min of running around. Most lose interest even if you are in a hulk. And how much of your time was spent running around? How much of your ore was destroyed while in a jetcan (or how much time yu spent delivering it to station every time your ship was full)?
Ulviirala Vauryndar Gallente Cohortes Stellaris ParadoXon Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.09 21:29:00 - [48] Originally by: sliver 0xD Originally by: Ulviirala Vauryndar Now I know there are classes that makes asteroid growth one, two or three times a week. I have yet to visit a systems with more than three times a week. These days will be Monday, Friday and Wednesday during downtime. they respawn after a set time. not after dt but also in the midle of the game. time it right and you should be able to farm it beter. No, they do not respawn after a set time. They respawn during downtime and depending on the system during the above named days. If this was about forcing more people into low/0.0 for convenience, it certainly doesn't work on me. I was an eager miner once, but today when you need to scout for belts and only find some asteroid remains or Hulks at work and give up, I lose my motivation to play EVE for that day almost entirely. There are options. You didn't need options back then though. A very few mission provide descent amounts of Ore but it's not an everyday mission, I believe most missions have asteroids rather for decoration. I can't just grind a couple of Level 4 missions until I get a descent mining deadspace. If you're into manufacturing you're not searching only for Veldspar anyways and it's not all about most profit either. That said, it makes me as a miner really, really unhappy. With THAT situation at hand, what would you need an Orca for? The ship itself is very, very nice but with these belts, it'd probably be an awful capital-sized joke. Unfortunately, your signature is not 22239 bytes, it exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches I fail, regards to Cortes - Ulvi
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.10 01:31:00 - [49] Originally by: Nekopyat Originally by: Hatch he's too chickenshit to mine in low sec Given the poor tanking/escape ability of barges (outside the hulk maybe) can one really blame him? Combat mechanics heavily favor the attacker, and mining defenders are already at a significant disadvantage. Frigate/Cruiser/BS mining is a bit more viable but the number of times you have to jump from belt to station rapidly makes it not worth it. One could also bring a gang that MIGHT be able to kill the attacker before they pop your paper-thin barge but again it is not much extra reward (if any) requiring more people to accomplish. Every lowsec system I run through I see giant 'roid belts. They are so because no one mines them. Are you even remotely familiar with the term mmo? A hint: MULTIPLAYER. Yeah that means if you don't cooperate and grab control of a system so you can mine there then tough luck if you take a chance and want to ninja mine an uncontrolled system. This game is about controlling and securing solar systems. I know you people from high sec don't grasp this concept because of extreme carebearing but that's how it works. Either you like it in high sec crowded baby safe space or you take control of systems with force (with friends/alliance) and you mine somewhere less crowded like low sec for example. Yeah, it's that easy. True story. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.10 05:23:00 - [50] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Nekopyat Originally by: Hatch he's too chickenshit to mine in low sec Given the poor tanking/escape ability of barges (outside the hulk maybe) can one really blame him? Combat mechanics heavily favor the attacker, and mining defenders are already at a significant disadvantage. Frigate/Cruiser/BS mining is a bit more viable but the number of times you have to jump from belt to station rapidly makes it not worth it. One could also bring a gang that MIGHT be able to kill the attacker before they pop your paper-thin barge but again it is not much extra reward (if any) requiring more people to accomplish. Every lowsec system I run through I see giant 'roid belts. They are so because no one mines them. Are you even remotely familiar with the term mmo? A hint: MULTIPLAYER. Yeah that means if you don't cooperate and grab control of a system so you can mine there then tough luck if you take a chance and want to ninja mine an uncontrolled system. This game is about controlling and securing solar systems. I know you people from high sec don't grasp this concept because of extreme carebearing but that's how it works. Either you like it in high sec crowded baby safe space or you take control of systems with force (with friends/alliance) and you mine somewhere less crowded like low sec for example. Yeah, it's that easy. True story. Lyra Skydancer using the secret move: when you don't have good arguments, use teh "it is a MMORPG" reason. Are you waguely aware that low sec systems can't be secured? Or are you so used to the carebeering sections of 0.0 where you can hide behind several ****epoins guarded by friend with bubbles?

Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.10 14:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Hatch he's too chickenshit to mine in low sec No, it's that mining in lowsec is just shy of suicidial. If you don't have support you WILL be killed eventually doing it and of all the mining ships only the exhumers have any means of defense (A Caracal can pop a retriever in two volleys with noob skills). I have mined more than I like to admit simply because it's the least involved way of making ISK you can get. That being said, in spite of the fact I can fly a Hulk and have "decent" mining skills (I estimate about 75 - 80% of max yield but I've never done the math) I seem to make as much these days as I did when I had a retriever. I actually sold my Hulk to my corp at a tremendous loss because even if mining requires very little intervention to work (and as such I can watch a movie, do homework or whatever else may be more interesting than watching the lasers cycle) the mere 1 - 2 million isk I get per hour just isn't worth it to me in the end. 0.0 Mining worked allright but in 0.0 (or lowsec for that matter) you're never free to just mine and ignore the game. In anything but a pimped Exhumer you're forced to get at least a 3 man gang together to make the thing work (hauler, miner, tanker) and since your hauler and tanker generally won't work for free you lose cash right there on top of the cash you lose for refining effeciency and taxes and so on. At the end of it all my only real issue is, given how little mining pays these days, why do people still do it? I guess I should be thankful - afterall without people to mine how would I have ships on the market to fly around until they explode? When I started Eve, people in hulks claimed they were making around 100 mil isk/hour - now I never hear miners brag about their ISK/hour income but I know that ratting was always a faster route to isk for me in 0.0 than mining was.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.11 01:58:00 - [52] Originally by: Venkul Mul Are you waguely aware that low sec systems can't be secured? Or are you so used to the carebeering sections of 0.0 where you can hide behind several ****epoins guarded by friend with bubbles? Wait you flame me because it is easy mode to hide behind friends in 0.0 and mine/rat? Why are you whining here if its so easy. Go do it yourself then. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.11 04:18:00 - [53] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Venkul Mul Are you waguely aware that low sec systems can't be secured? Or are you so used to the carebeering sections of 0.0 where you can hide behind several ****epoins guarded by friend with bubbles? Wait you flame me because it is easy mode to hide behind friends in 0.0 and mine/rat? Why are you whining here if its so easy. Go do it yourself then. I agree - there ARE places one can go to mine and do well - I just don't find it to be worthwhile personally.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.11 06:50:00 - [54] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 11/07/2008 06:54:09 Edited by: Venkul Mul on 11/07/2008 06:51:29 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Venkul Mul Are you waguely aware that low sec systems can't be secured? Or are you so used to the carebeering sections of 0.0 where you can hide behind several ****epoins guarded by friend with bubbles? Wait you flame me because it is easy mode to hide behind friends in 0.0 and mine/rat? Why are you whining here if its so easy. Go do it yourself then. No, I flame you because you suggest a 0.0 solution for low sec, while you should know very well that it can't be implemented in low sec. It is like saying "Low sec mineral have a low value" and replying "Go mine Arknor". And I flame you because you use the "this is a MMORPG bring more people" reply to try to quell discussion when you haven't good arguments.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.11 12:37:00 - [55] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/07/2008 12:37:04 Originally by: Venkul Mul No, I flame you because you suggest a 0.0 solution for low sec, while you should know very well that it can't be implemented in low sec. It is like saying "Low sec mineral have a low value" and replying "Go mine Arknor". And I flame you because you use the "this is a MMORPG bring more people" reply to try to quell discussion when you haven't good arguments. Seriously, you cant convince us that high sec money making needs another boost. It's already at a redicilous level. What are you, an isk farmer? ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.11 13:14:00 - [56] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/07/2008 12:37:04 Originally by: Venkul Mul No, I flame you because you suggest a 0.0 solution for low sec, while you should know very well that it can't be implemented in low sec. It is like saying "Low sec mineral have a low value" and replying "Go mine Arknor". And I flame you because you use the "this is a MMORPG bring more people" reply to try to quell discussion when you haven't good arguments. Seriously, you cant convince us that high sec money making needs another boost. It's already at a redicilous level. What are you, an isk farmer? Good dodge, but I was not speaking of high sec, I was speaking of your unapplicable suggestions. So Lyra, instead of trying to weasel out, stay on argument.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.07.11 13:34:00 - [57] Originally by: Venkul Mul Good dodge, but I was not speaking of high sec, I was speaking of your unapplicable suggestions. So Lyra, instead of trying to weasel out, stay on argument. My point is still valid. High sec isk farming needs no boost. End of story. ----------------------------------------- [Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.12 11:07:00 - [58] I think the Rorqual is being missed from the whole mining equation. Three things: a) Allow Rorquals in high sec. Just so people get used to them. From the sounds of things, belts get stripped so fast that having rorq's wouldn't make much difference anyway b) Give Rorquals triage mode. So they can RR miners and tank enemy gangs long enough for miners to find some defences, or those combat players ratting 3 systems away to come running back and help c) Boost retriever HP. Retriever is made of paper. If you can't even tank low sec rats, nevermind other players, and you have to put in that huge skills and isk investment into a hulk to even get to mine more than 5 minutes in 0.0, then it is no wonder ppl stick to high sec.
Nailus Wicked Crew	Posted - 2008.07.12 22:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Nekopyat Originally by: Hatch he's too chickenshit to mine in low sec Given the poor tanking/escape ability of barges (outside the hulk maybe) can one really blame him? Combat mechanics heavily favor the attacker, and mining defenders are already at a significant disadvantage. Frigate/Cruiser/BS mining is a bit more viable but the number of times you have to jump from belt to station rapidly makes it not worth it. One could also bring a gang that MIGHT be able to kill the attacker before they pop your paper-thin barge but again it is not much extra reward (if any) requiring more people to accomplish. Every lowsec system I run through I see giant 'roid belts. They are so because no one mines them. Are you even remotely familiar with the term mmo? A hint: MULTIPLAYER. Yeah that means if you don't cooperate and grab control of a system so you can mine there then tough luck if you take a chance and want to ninja mine an uncontrolled system. This game is about controlling and securing solar systems. I know you people from high sec don't grasp this concept because of extreme carebearing but that's how it works. Either you like it in high sec crowded baby safe space or you take control of systems with force (with friends/alliance) and you mine somewhere less crowded like low sec for example. Yeah, it's that easy. True story. Lyra Skydancer using the secret move: when you don't have good arguments, use teh "it is a MMORPG" reason. Are you waguely aware that low sec systems can't be secured? Or are you so used to the carebeering sections of 0.0 where you can hide behind several ****epoins guarded by friend with bubbles? And why cant you secure low-sec..... weve done it successfully for well over a year now
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.14 05:49:00 - [60] I think the reason one could say you can't secure lowsec like you can 0.0 is because you can't pop up bubbles in lowsec. Without a bubble it's a LOT harder to run a gatecamp, and without solid gatecamps you really aren't secure.



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