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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.23 16:24:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Galen Darksmith
Might as well make the Amarr atheists.
Or have them accept heresy without as much as a blink?
*runs*
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Haverloth
1st Praetorian Guard
Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2008.06.23 16:43:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: Galen Darksmith
Might as well make the Amarr atheists.
Or have them accept heresy without as much as a blink?
*runs*
The Emperor is dead, long live the Emperor?
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http://www.amarr-empire.net |
Udyr Vulpayne
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.23 16:49:00 -
[63]
a few points:
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
...and the people support Jamyl Sarum.
and why exactly should the people support her all of a sudden when its very possible that she has turned into a traitor like kahnid II? as long as the people dont get an answer as to why its not a problem for her to still be alive i dont really see how they would universally support her. and more importantly why all other figures of authority would just accept her when there is such an easy case to be made against her.
as i said earlier i dont think its a horribly impossible storyline in itself it was just executed in a very bad manner. you cant just have an event of such high impact and then say nothing about it in public.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
> They don't want to die. These days they are all capsuleers but denied the use of clones, they can see real immortality but they are denied it.
is this mentioned specifically in the book? i was under the impression that you would need to have some special genetic traits to become a capsuleer and more importantly that it would be highly frowned upon if a high ranking amarrian noble stepped into a pod due to the purity issue concerning this jovian technology.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Nowhere is it written that the flesh of the Emperor cannot be cloned.
"The EmperorĘs position has always had a divine aura surrounding it and this led the Amarrians to belief that the flesh of the Emperor and other members of the royal families was sacred. This fact forbids the sacred flesh to be cloned, as the Amarrians consider this to make it impure."
from "amarr succession" one of the first chronicles.
the issue of impurity due to cloning/becoming a capsuleer was very important and very much an item of public discussion before this happend. so i really dont see how you can just ignore it as a minor detail.
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Ilany
BANK of HUZZAH FEDERATION
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.06.23 18:39:00 -
[64]
The book covers the reactions of the other heirs - they argue over what you are saying in one of the final chapters.
The public perception is not covered, but presumably this is something CCP will have to deal with in the coming months.
(The book ends just after the CONCORD announcement, so the Amarrian general public would not have had time to react either way, same goes for the Minmatar.)
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.23 19:12:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 23/06/2008 19:12:41
Someone finally managed to do what I have tried to whine info for here and there, and point me to an actual honest-to-god definition of "an Elder":
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=804922&page=1#9
I take back my whinage on the Elders not being explained properly anywhere. (Though I still think the news exposition was abysmal, if it really counted on the average player to remember that one quote from page 103 of Theodicy  )
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.23 19:32:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 23/06/2008 19:32:22
(meh, ignore)
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.23 20:08:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 23/06/2008 20:08:26
Answering myself based on Theodicy - can someone who has read the new book see if I contradict something there?
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
What do the "myths and legends" say the Elders are like? Who has returned exactly and from where - that is, according to our "general knowledge"?
This is not explained in detail, because it ICly would not be. According to Theodicy the Elders were always kept secret and hidden and obscured by legends, to protect their identities. Knowing this from legend, people in the EVE world would probably consider it natural that they do not know anything more. (Of course some would realize that this is a perfect place for a hoax, too.)
Quote:
Do we think the dead Elders have somehow been resurrected, or does that refer more to Tradition being substituted for Modern Government, or what?
I think most people would assume that these are not the same elders, but some new wise people chosen by some unspecified way.
Quote:
What do we know about these "the Elders"? Do they have names? Clans?
They have names and clans, but we would not know them, because they are kept hidden and mystical (but not magical! ;)) by custom and to protect them.
Quote:
Why do they have a claim to the leadership of the tribes?
The Elders do not so much lead themselves, but advise the more practical leaders, such as Midular and Shakor and all that jazz.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.23 22:34:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
What does it mean that the "Elders have returned"
Here's what there is:
When told the Elders have returned Keitan (who is both an ambassador and historian) claims that they aren't real. He states that "Ancient Mythology" can't be behind the forces arrayed at the Sanctuary he is led to.
They are described as seven white figures seven feet taller than a Sebeistor with indiscernible faces and no shape to their limbs but apparently human. The impression is given that this is just smoke and mirrors to impress Keitan and hide their true appearance.
Keitan recalls them as the "legendary Elders", the incarnation of the seven tribes. They are men and women chosen from each generation "dating back to antiquity", responsible for "absorbing the accumulated knowledge of the ages and using it to guide their journey towards the future". They are human but highly revered and are kept hidden from public view to keep their identities safe.
Since they are selected each generation then I assume that when one dies another is chosen and that this is the form of government the Minmatar held before the Day of Darkness. The Elders have been running things in the background, including the military buildup and the Nefantar's "sacrifice" of living amongst the Amarr to preserve the Starkmanir.
Hope this helps.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.23 22:35:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 23/06/2008 22:41:19
Originally by: Galen Darksmith
That's my point. Suddenly, we find out that the State is this huge corrupt failure.
Suddenly? The Caldari economy has been falling apart for ages, and the working masses have been rioting for a long time. Corporate corruption and greed at the expense of the people is the "flavor" of the State. A quick read through the news will show you this. Ishukone has been pretty much the only exception since Otro took over it's leadership and he was, like Heth, not a member of the elite before rising to his position.
As for the "will of the people" again, exactly. The leaders of the State have been ignoring it and it's come around to bite them in the ass. I have no idea where you get this idea about the "mental elite" the State certainly wasn't a meritocracy, though it is heading that way now. I don't see it ever having been there in PF to "toss out the window".
Originally by: Galen Darksmith
Heth isn't efficient. The man's sacrificed who knows how many lives over a lump of rock.
Yes, Heth is in my eyes quite unbalanced. But many among the "Patriots" have been suggesting just such a course of action for quite some time. The Caldari are efficient but they are hardly machines. I'm sure there are many Caldari who feel as you do, but I wouldn't advise them to advertise the fact.
Originally by: Galen Darksmith
He's worse than any corrupt CEO could have been, at least the CEOs didn't start a war that will likely end up devastating the already small Caldari population.
Now that's hardly true, Caldari has been steadily feeding itself to it's ruling body for some time. These people have wealth beyond reason while those who work for this wealth have almost nothing. How long would it have been before the State simply collapsed under the weight of it's own corruption? How long before these CEO's sell out their people to foreign interests to squeeze those last few ISK out of the corporations they are ruining. Heth has at least reversed this trend. The war has united the people and the economy is back on the rise as investors have renewed faith in the Sate.
Originally by: Galen Darksmith
Not to mention that he didn't get to where he was because he gave the appearance of being smart or clever in the first place. He got there because of the "will of the people."
He got there though the manipulation of both himself, executives, and the people by the Broker. That and the fact that the Caldari people are smart enough to see that their leaders have been lying to them for a very long time.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.23 22:36:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
and why exactly should the people support her all of a sudden when its very possible that she has turned into a traitor like kahnid II?
Because, while Khanid stole a titan, absconded with a large portion of the fleet, and divided the Amarr Empire, Sarum has returned with a fleet of ships, a superweapon, and has turned the tide of a massive invasion. More she has turned up at a time when the Empire is very much desperate for leadership in light of the long time without anyone on the throne and the effects of Karsoth's corruption, the depths and public effect of which we will probably never know.
the Scriptures don't say she can't return, she seems to have the backing of God, and people need a leader. I'd say there is almost no comparison between Sarum and Khanid.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
why all other figures of authority would just accept her when there is such an easy case to be made against her.
I've given the reasons stated. They make sense to me, but you can't please everyone.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
you cant just have an event of such high impact and then say nothing about it in public.
Yes, the lack of news on public response is pretty much a disgrace and the primary reason for me making this thread. So that the RP community who feel lost at the moment can get on with their virtual lives.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
[On heirs being capsuleers] is this mentioned specifically in the book?
Yes. Sarum is evidently a capsuleer, several prominent members of Theology Council are known to be capsuleers. It is evident that not all of them are capsuleers but some of them are. In addition their lifespans given Amarr implant technology would be long enough that the difference becomes quite small.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Nowhere is it written that the flesh of the Emperor cannot be cloned.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
"The EmperorĘs position has always had a divine aura surrounding it and this led the Amarrians to belief that the flesh of the Emperor and other members of the royal families was sacred."
Tradition is not Scripture. It's the peoples belief not the word of God.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
the issue of impurity due to cloning/becoming a capsuleer was very important and very much an item of public discussion before this happend. so i really dont see how you can just ignore it as a minor detail.
I'm not ignoring anything, please don't make this personal I'm just presenting the books "point of view" and defending it it's absence. That doesn't mean I universally agree with it.
To the point itself I imagine there was quite some controversy over purity when a Udorian family pretty much bought itself into becoming Heirs. The Amarr Empire is not unchanging and some changes in it's past seem to have happened very swiftly.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.23 22:38:00 -
[71]
My Mrs says I should order you all to read the book and stop being so charitable.
But I don't make a habit of listening to her so I'm still open for questions. Polite ones though, if the book differs from your RP vision or your interpretation of the backstory you can STFU or take it to TonyG.
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.24 03:08:00 -
[72]
I think the problem is alot of people thought they knew the PF, but found that they didn't and in many cases simply believe CCP are the ones wrong, and not them.
Galen, the State's problems have been out in the open for what, a year or more now? The sad state of the State isn't just out of the blue.
And people, stop comparing Sarum to Khanid, it's complete and utter nonsense. The two situations are so drastically different that it's scary to see people actually think both incidents are the same thing, that over simplifies things far, far too much.
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Udyr Vulpayne
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.24 06:26:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
The Scriptures don't say she can't return, she seems to have the backing of God, and people need a leader. I'd say there is little comparison between Sarum and Khanid beyond both having gone against tradition.
well the real difference is just that sarum succeeded at stealing the throne :)
my main point being that its not made public that she has the backing of god and everything is alright and such.
in the world of eve before these events leaving such an obvious way to attack her credibility wide open would have resulted in a ton of nobles and religious leader across the empire calling for open revolt in an attempt to get a bit of power of their own. we would propably be well on our way to a khanid II-style civil war right now. instead everyone just agrees that she should be handed the throne and is happy to serve under the new leader without at least trying to wiggle a bit more power out of it first.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Tradition is not Scripture. It's the peoples belief not the word of God.
i agree with this. its not scripture but it shows that there are widespread beliefs regarding these purity issues. before these events it was a very common issue people had with capsuleers. now its imply ignored.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
I'm not ignoring anything, please don't make this personal I'm just presenting the books "point of view" and defending it in it's absence.
ah sorry...that "you" in "so i really dont see how you can just ignore it as a minor detail." wasnt aimed directly at you but more at how the amarrian nobles/public can just go over this rater major change without much explanation.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.24 08:27:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Hope this helps.
YES, it does. Thank you very much. You rule.
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Vendrin
APEX Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.06.24 09:13:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Vendrin on 24/06/2008 09:13:49
http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/viewtopic.php?p=111187#111187
For those who want to know what kind of Prime Fiction has been established by the novel. Some plot exposition, but mostly just PF Facts.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.24 14:42:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 24/06/2008 14:42:49
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
well the real difference is just that sarum succeeded at stealing the throne :)
It seems to be Falek Grange (if that is who is within her mind) stealing the throne but otherwise, yes. It's all a matter of timing and actions after the fact. Had Khanid returned to the Empire and driven out the Minmatar shortly after his refusal to follow tradition during a period where no one has sat on that throne in years it may well have been him sitting on it. But he didn't he stole the Emperors stuffs and struck out on his own.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
in the world of eve before these events leaving such an obvious way to attack her credibility wide open would have resulted in a ton of nobles and religious leader across the empire calling for open revolt in an attempt to get a bit of power of their own.
Well firstly we have to consider that the tradition of suicide at te coronation of a new Emperor was to preserve stability. While she has broken that tradition in doing so she has preserved stability. The general panic over the Minmatar invading with Insorum and the Nefantar's betrayal, combined with the previously mentioned empty throne and reluctant heirs has created a situation where Sarum has so much support that standing against her would likely be political suicide.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Tradition is not Scripture. It's the peoples belief not the word of God.
i agree with this. its not scripture but it shows that there are widespread beliefs regarding these purity issues. before these events it was a very common issue people had with capsuleers. now its imply ignored.
Not ignored as such, there are of course concerns and these are raised many times in the book. But these tend to be the concerns of individuals who have little chance of standing against the capsuleers. We've become too useful a resource and too powerful a foe to start officially declaring the faithful amongst us impure or questioning whether each new clone is spiritually identical to the last.
An interesting thought related to tradition and Scripture is how the Cult of Tetrimon and their apocrypha would be handled by Sarum/Grange once she has ascended to the throne should they return.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
I'm not ignoring anything, please don't make this personal I'm just presenting the books "point of view" and defending it in it's absence.
ah sorry...that "you" in "so i really dont see how you can just ignore it as a minor detail." wasnt aimed directly at you but more at how the amarrian nobles/public can just go over this rater major change without much explanation.
I figured it wasn't intended personally, but I wanted to make sure that little seed didn't grow and tear the thread apart.
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Hope this helps.
YES, it does. Thank you very much. You rule.
Bah! Just doing CCP's job for them, it's a duty not a favor.
Originally by: Vendrin
Edited by: Vendrin on 24/06/2008 09:13:49
http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/viewtopic.php?p=111187#111187
For those who want to know what kind of Prime Fiction has been established by the novel. Some plot exposition, but mostly just PF Facts.
Dey tukk our Jurb! 
Well, not really, this is more a discussion on what we and the public should know/feel and the overall plot and I'd advise anyone who wants further OOC PF information, and who really is sure they won't be getting the book, to read the other thread.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.06.24 15:19:00 -
[77]
More infos please.
San Matari Official forums |
Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.24 15:51:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
More infos please.
On?
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Jenni Falorgen
FATAL 487
ICARUS Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:45:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
More infos please.
On?
meow |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:48:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Jenni Falorgen
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
More infos please.
On?
meow
Meow got adopted by the Jovian Empire and is now living a happy genetically enhanced life as the first feline pod pilot.
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Ideas for: Mining
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Shern
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.06.25 17:22:00 -
[81]
Sent you some info and you can borrow my book if you like, Scagga.
I wasn't too keen on the book. I think things needed to be explained more - it felt like things were just happening by 'fiat'. I wanted more detail. Perhaps too much was going on in the book, with it's four plotlines, one for each nation.
Big credits to Karen Midular and Admiral Neko, they seem to be asking questions about these 'elders'. |
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