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Kurenin
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Posted - 2004.05.16 17:44:00 -
[61]
Why are you talking about apocs with railguns.
Megabeam > 425.
Also, Armageddon has the highest DoT using megabeams and 2 Heat Sink II I think
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[22:02] <Kurenin> anyhow, on a more serious note, what did you think of those ideas?
[22:02] <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
Inactivity wins you. |
Baun
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Posted - 2004.05.16 17:45:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Baun on 16/05/2004 17:49:25
 Quote:
Quote:
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Torpedo I
Slow and sluggish missiles only able to hit slow moving objects in semi-straight line from launch destination.
Damage: 450
Max Skilled Damage: 562.5
Ballistic Control System I: 601.875
Speed: 1000
Max Skilled Speed: 1250
Max Ship Bonus Speed: 1875
Flight Time: 20 secs
Max Skilled Flight Time: 25 secs
Max Base Distance: 20 KM
Max Skill & Ship Bonus Distance: 46.875 KM
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Yes, and they take 37.5 seconds to reach max range at max skills.
They are thus STILL the blasters of the missle family, but they do way less damage (but have better range) than the blasters of the hybrid family.
None of this changes the fact that the Apoc does more damage under ideal circumstances than the Raven AND has better defense, ALL without having to sack any slots for fitting enhancers.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.05.16 17:48:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Kurenin
Why are you talking about apocs with railguns.
Megabeam > 425.
Also, Armageddon has the highest DoT using megabeams and 2 Heat Sink II I think
Cap and powergrid requirements. It can fit 8 railguns and fire them all while running its defense without running into significant cap problems. An apoc cannot even fit 8 megabeams much less fit them all and fire them all while running an X-L booster ad infinitum.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.05.16 18:04:00 -
[64]
a apoc can never fitt 8 425 and shield tank without using 1 or 2 co-processors...
"We brake for nobody"
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.05.16 18:55:00 -
[65]
raven still a dud ?
where do you live ? Raven isnt a dud, never was as long as it could fit 8 oremium large size weapons AND shiedl or armor tank at the same time.
Instead, it needed and got a downward correction to its fitting abilities.
Apoc is³ber tho, certainly with even more powergrid.
And an apoc CAN fit 8 large turrets and still armortank to hell and back easily if these new changes get in.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.05.16 18:59:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
a apoc can never fitt 8 425 and shield tank without using 1 or 2 co-processors...
wtf ? You kidding me ?
One or two cpu's for fitting 8 large turrets ?
Withwhat in medslots ? an XL shieldbooster MWD and two other cpu intensive modules ?
an even if you need a cpu in lows, you still have more then neough to fill with cap relays.
the megathron, actual intended user of the 425 railgun, can't fit 5 of them and a XL shieldbooster without adding a CPU in lows.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.05.16 19:08:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
a apoc can never fitt 8 425 and shield tank without using 1 or 2 co-processors...
wtf ? You kidding me ?
One or two cpu's for fitting 8 large turrets ?
Withwhat in medslots ? an XL shieldbooster MWD and two other cpu intensive modules ?
an even if you need a cpu in lows, you still have more then neough to fill with cap relays.
the megathron, actual intended user of the 425 railgun, can't fit 5 of them and a XL shieldbooster without adding a CPU in lows.
what do u mean? that a apoc (625 cpu) dont need a co-processor? wtf?
"We brake for nobody"
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qrac
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Posted - 2004.05.16 19:10:00 -
[68]
Quote:
an even if you need a cpu in lows, you still have more then neough to fill with cap relays.
they're getting nerfed!
an apoc can't fit 8 425's without using either cpu's or named stuff.
Quote:
the megathron, actual intended user of the 425 railgun, can't fit 5 of them and a XL shieldbooster without adding a CPU in lows.
ehh... if the apoc can fit 8 how can't the megathron fit 5??
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.05.16 20:20:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Sorry guys, but the big loser here is the TEMPEST. The Raven is going to be very, very useful, as are the apoc, armageddon, megathron, and typhoon, with their grid increases and new bonuses. The tempest gets a marginal grid increase, but it still cant fit anything more than 5 of anything without grid enhancing modules.
I'm not so sure you are correct. Let's not panic just yet. Just because something didn't get major improvements, does not mean that it was screwed over. Tempest was pretty good to begin with.
It could be that the rest of the ships were fubared and needed fixing. 
Amarr ships needed SOME kind of boost. As for the Raven, I think the powergrid reduction did it a great disservice. CPU is useless if you have no powergrid to use it with (not that I have this problem much).
Reducing the CPU load of the shield boosters will help the Tempest immensely. So will the slight increase in powergrid. Having 5-6 1400mm on is nice, but there are other setups which are far more useful and efficient in terms of powergrid use, and lowering the cpu load while increasing grid can only help.
I'd rather have my Tempest's powergrid raised and my cpu load eased, then have the cpu increased and the power grid nerfed (aka. as in the Raven).
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Lord Zap
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Posted - 2004.05.16 20:38:00 -
[70]
Originally by: YuuKnow
Edited by: YuuKnow on 16/05/2004 16:12:27
Originally by: Lord Zap
Originally by: Jazz Bo
Originally by: de meyer
Why should a raven beat an apoc?
When a scorp will totally dominate it?
There is no way a lone Scorpion can kill the new improved Apoc alone. Tons of cap and a recharge of 110 seconds?
Where are you getting this figure of 110 seconds from?! As far as I was aware the fastest capacitor charge time you could get on an Apocalypse was 145 seconds unless using Capacitor Flux (which is pointless) with energy systems ops 5 and 7 cap relays.
That aside, these proposed changes look like they will make the game even more imbalanced. At present a shield tanked apocalypse with 6 x 425mm rails 2 x H-50 arbs will beat, by way of outlasting, pretty much any other ship, the proposed changes only look set to make it even more uber. I also don't have the answer :/ but these changes will not help matters one bit.
How can a apoc can equip 6 x 425's, 2 x H-50 arbs, 2 x shield harderners, and a XL SB, without running outta CPU?? Are you referring to a setup made of entirely named and techII goods?
Not entirely, I Seem to remember being able to equip them with only a named XL booster. And trust me although the setup doesnt do as much damage outright as a megathron you will still beat him because your cap is so strong.
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Lord Zap
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Posted - 2004.05.16 20:42:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Baun
Edited by: Baun on 16/05/2004 16:56:50
Quote:
8 rails do 211,7 dmg/s.
6 siege do 225,7 dmg/s.
Please verify this. Post the calculations.
I don't think this is correct, but even if it is it doesn't change the fact that the Apoc wins and is able to out shield tank the Raven, while the Raven cannot even fit 2 of its high slots.
Surely any calculation for missile dot must factor in the range of the target.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.16 21:03:00 -
[72]
How much cpu would 8 425mm's take (with weapons upgrades 5)?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
qrac
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Posted - 2004.05.16 21:23:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
How much cpu would 8 425mm's take (with weapons upgrades 5)?
didn't u read the thread? ;)
420 cpu.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
TheFatman
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Posted - 2004.05.16 22:15:00 -
[74]
Just read through the thread, but it seems TomB is missing the mark somehow, or I am missing his.
I thought what they were attempting to do, was get Amarr pilots to use lasers?
From what I am reading here, it looks like the proposed changes won't do it, because the buffs, still don't give amarr pilots any reason to choose lasers over the 425s, since using lasers doesn't give them as good an advantage over using 425s and using all the extra cap to tank.
Why don't they give the Amarr a damage modifier when using lasers? Or am I just being naive, because to me it looks like that will be the only way to convince Amarr ship users to use lasers. Any other way and it seems people will just switch to guns that use much less cap and do the same if not more damage, when used on amarr ships.
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Jorlin
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Posted - 2004.05.16 23:05:00 -
[75]
i think (and hope) the changes are done with the upcoming advanced skills in mind. we have only little knowledge about them...only what eve-db or other tools tell us about it (and the data might change).
like:
Advanced Weapon Upgrades
i didn't even calculate if it will be of any use to me...
no police, no summons, no courts of law;
no proper procedure, no rules of war;
no mitigating circumstance;
no lawyers fees, no second chance! |
Baun
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Posted - 2004.05.17 01:48:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Lord Zap
Originally by: Baun
Edited by: Baun on 16/05/2004 16:56:50
Quote:
8 rails do 211,7 dmg/s.
6 siege do 225,7 dmg/s.
Please verify this. Post the calculations.
I don't think this is correct, but even if it is it doesn't change the fact that the Apoc wins and is able to out shield tank the Raven, while the Raven cannot even fit 2 of its high slots.
Surely any calculation for missile dot must factor in the range of the target.
I agree, although in the case of Cruise Missles it will not make nearly as large of a differnce.
It is, however, pure comedy that TomB posts DOT for torpedos without factoring in range and that qrac thinks this is a good baseline comparison against Apocs with 425s. The simple truth is that Torpedos are the new short range missles but don't do nearly as much damage as short ranged hybrids while their long ranged equivalents also do less damage. Meanwhile the apoc still has way better defense.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.05.17 01:52:00 -
[77]
Quote:
raven still a dud ?
where do you live ? Raven isnt a dud, never was as long as it could fit 8 oremium large size weapons AND shiedl or armor tank at the same time.
Raven is currently a dud because its weapons are worthless at range and because it cannot fully tank without incredible mods and skills while having a full offense.
Now, its weapons are being made semi-viable at range but their RoF is being increased and they are being made restrictively hard to fit. It has improved on its old deficiencies whilst being handed new ones.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Shevaun Ashnirelim
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Posted - 2004.05.17 01:56:00 -
[78]
When a laser of sufficient intensity strikes an object, it can induce flash-vaporization with effects quite similar to explosion. How about adding some crystals that do thermal/explosive for chewing through hull? Lasers in Eve suffer from a ton of disadvantages... huge cpu/grid need, low damage potential, and huge deficits against armour/hull.
Might as well make them a bit more rounded, no other weapon suffers this horribly against a specific resistance type.
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Lord Zap
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Posted - 2004.05.17 02:01:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Baun
Quote:
raven still a dud ?
where do you live ? Raven isnt a dud, never was as long as it could fit 8 oremium large size weapons AND shiedl or armor tank at the same time.
Raven is currently a dud because its weapons are worthless at range and because it cannot fully tank without incredible mods and skills while having a full offense.
Now, its weapons are being made semi-viable at range but their RoF is being increased and they are being made restrictively hard to fit. It has improved on its old deficiencies whilst being handed new ones.
I think at present the Raven is uber only with the upcoming proposed change will it be sub-par.
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.05.17 02:07:00 -
[80]
Quote:
I think at present the Raven is uber only with the upcoming proposed change will it be sub-par.
How is it uber now?
Its missles are worthless at range and as such its high targetting range is a useless attribute. It is slow, slow targetting and is easy to target. It cannot armor tank effectively with the 20% Cap IIs that aren't on TQ and it is an inferior shield tanker to your Apoc of doom described earlier.
All in all it is a good close range ship, but it is hardly uber or unbalanced at the moment.
I do agree though that the changes will really make it sub par. To this effect please check out my newest post on fitting requirement tweaks.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Yuni
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Posted - 2004.05.17 02:53:00 -
[81]
what if they just increased hybrid fitting by 10cpu and gave gallente 50 more cpu on there ships. Apoc will be forced to use lasers then.
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.05.17 03:15:00 -
[82]
No, they would be force to use meta-modded railguns.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Yuni
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Posted - 2004.05.17 03:27:00 -
[83]
well obviously they would have to up the cpu req's on meta hybrids also.
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.05.17 03:29:00 -
[84]
They would, but a 10 base increase on the base 425s won't even bring carbides back up to OLD base CPU reqs on the base 425s.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Xeris
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Posted - 2004.05.17 05:35:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Baun
No, they would be force to use meta-modded railguns.
The sky is falling. We get it.
Now shut up already.
Too lazy to get my sig changed |
corporal hicks
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Posted - 2004.05.17 05:52:00 -
[86]
What I fail to see through all this thread is why you are complaining about the apoc getting more pw and mounting 8 425 rails ect and been this ubur shield tank. Please stop and ask yourself what can the apoc pilot do with that much pw fitting the guns he was ment to fit such as lasers ect.
I think until the apoc is tested with lasers on chaos this argument is pointless, I am sure the devs want apoc pilots on chaos testing apocs with lasers as opposed to 425 rails and 1400 artys.
I use projectile guns on minmatar ships, lasers on Amarr ships and hybrids on gallente ships I don't have any caldari ships so am not saying anything as regards the raven but i think imo you should use the guns best suited to your ship. Go test the apoc with lasers on chaos not with rails/projectiles or missiles then state your observations.
My 2 cents
" Stay Frosty "
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Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2004.05.17 05:57:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Arthur Eld on 17/05/2004 06:11:36
Originally by: corporal hicks
What I fail to see through all this thread is why you are complaining about the apoc getting more pw and mounting 8 425 rails ect and been this ubur shield tank. Please stop and ask yourself what can the apoc pilot do with that much pw fitting the guns he was ment to fit such as lasers ect.
I think until the apoc is tested with lasers on chaos this argument is pointless, I am sure the devs want apoc pilots on chaos testing apocs with lasers as opposed to 425 rails and 1400 artys.
I use projectile guns on minmatar ships, lasers on Amarr ships and hybrids on gallente ships I don't have any caldari ships so am not saying anything as regards the raven but i think imo you should use the guns best suited to your ship. Go test the apoc with lasers on chaos not with rails/projectiles or missiles then state your observations.
My 2 cents
You can test the Apoc with lasers all you want, but it wont represent real world setups on TQ. I've used lasers on Amarr ships and I've used hybrids on Amarr ships and hybrids are far superior.
Edit: Some stats straight from the horses (TomB's) mouth.
Originally by: TomB
425mm Railgun I
Damage Multiplier: 2.75
Capacitor Need: 35
Rate Of Fire: 9562.5
Damage Multiplier Per Sec: 0.288
Capacitor Need Per Sec: 3.66
Damage Per Sec (Antimatter L): 13.80
Damage Per Cap Per Sec: 3.7714286
Mega Beam I
Damage Multiplier: 2.75
Rate Of Fire: 9000
Damage Multiplier Per Sec: 0.306
Damage Per Sec (Multifrequency L): 13.44
Capacitor Need: 70
Capacitor Need Per Sec: 7.78
Damage Per Cap Per Sec: 1.7285714
Amarr Level 5 Ship Bonus (-10% need per level): 3.89
Amarr Level 5 Damage Per Cap Per Sec: 3.4571429
Even with the new bonuses 425's have better range, more damage, and less cap use.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.05.17 06:02:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Xeris
Originally by: Baun
No, they would be force to use meta-modded railguns.
The sky is falling. We get it.
Now shut up already.
Thanks for wasting your own time trolling, please take your trash elsewhere.
Hicks:
I don't think you understand what I am saying.
Yes, the PG was increased to so apocs could fit more tachyons AND armor tank, but the reality is that if they using hybrids instead, they can mount comparable offense and have an INSANE defense.
The issue isn't what an Apoc is supposed to do, but rather what it CAN do. This was the same issue with a Raven that could out armor tank an apoc and fit 8 high level battleship weapons. In your mind this wasn't a problem because the Raven wasn't supposed to armor tank, but the reality is that if the shield tanking setup was inferior to the armor tanking setup than the Raven would armor tank regardless of what it should do.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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corporal hicks
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Posted - 2004.05.17 06:49:00 -
[89]
I understand Baun trust me. I think the main problems with the ships is that people can use weapons of other race's on ships with no penalty, imo this is a bit stupid as it makes no sense, that is all.
My suggestion to fix this type of shield tanking setups on ships by using guns that require less cap is to make all guns triple there pw requirements but give all ships of a particular race a -66% fitting requirement for there specific guns, ie a Tacyhon takes up 12000 pw or so but a Amarr ship has a -66% pw fitting requirement for lasers that way the players will try to use the best gun for there ships bonus's. If they do want to fit a nice 425 rail on there apoc it will take them 8250 pw to mount one of them. Remember Amarr ships would have hugh reacters to vent energy to there laser turrets and such and would be designed with lasers in mind all the way so how come it is so easy ingame to just rip out the old tach and throw in a shiny new 425 rail?
There should be a penalty for mounting guns on ships that were not designed to take them.
This would kind of get rid of the ubar apoc shield tank you are talking about and also make people use the guns that the ships were ment to use in the first place.
I can not fathom why anyone would mount 425 rails on a apoc but thats just me I like to play the game in a kind of common sense type of way and abit of realisim.
Again my 2 cents but I posted twice so must be 5 cents
" Stay Frosty "
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fras
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Posted - 2004.05.17 08:56:00 -
[90]
I havn't been able to get on Chaos since the changes  So I wont comment on setups etc. I think if we are really going down the route of Ravens having to shield tank(which I think is a shame), then the ships that have gotten a PG boost need to be forced to armour tank too, it's the only way of adding some balance to their huge grid.
I really am going to reserve judgment though, describing the Raven as "still a dud" doesn't inspire confidence to an objective post. The Raven has never been a dud on Chaos or TQ.
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