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Salpad	Posted - 2008.06.26 04:56:00 - [31] Originally by: Hexxx Things will look differently in 3 to 4 months I think. What are you referring to? What will happen in 3-4 months? Will EVE change in some way? -- Salpad
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.06.26 08:18:00 - [32] While it's true that I've never charged for an audit (and I have no plans to do so), I do usually ask for an opportunity to invest in the scheme (or CEO) in question, or at some future point if they've already sold out. Good investment opportunities are rare and tend to become oversubscribed in a matter of hours, so this alone makes the job worthwhile. Some people might argue that this creates a conflict of interest, but I'd say that it creates a strong incentive for me to be thorough. Most people, me included, buy shares/bonds for the dividends, not the potential resale value, so I look for long-term viability. Also, if I invest, I have a good reason not to abuse my privileged access to confidential information. Shadarle is quite right, too - public trust is just as valuable, if not more so, than anything else I've mentioned. I'm not currently planning on launching any IPOs or bonds myself, though. I'm busy enough with one or two audits per week. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri 20:1 low-end compression
Amrumm Rhetorical Devices	Posted - 2008.06.26 09:53:00 - [33] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro While it's true that I've never charged for an audit (and I have no plans to do so), I do usually ask for an opportunity to invest in the scheme (or CEO) in question, or at some future point if they've already sold out. <snip> Some people might argue that this creates a conflict of interest, but I'd say that it creates a strong incentive for me to be thorough. <snip> This makes a lot of sense to me. The auditor gets a guaranteed right to invest up to a certain amount in the bond/IPO (10-20%), either personally or have friends take those shares.
Mazzarins Demise Profit Development and Research Association	Posted - 2008.06.26 12:51:00 - [34] Edited by: Mazzarins Demise on 26/06/2008 12:51:04 Will we have the issue of potential audit scammers coming out of the woodwork, receiving both compensation and your API key? The respectable people who audit for us now are only human and not everyone can be perusing the forums 24/7. Some will fall through the *****s. Or is the amount of compensation not a vast amount of money to worry about? Just a thought really.
SencneS Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2008.06.26 13:42:00 - [35] Edited by: SencneS on 26/06/2008 13:45:14 There are so many issues with IPOs, audits, and reservations. I personally don't like the idea of having to reserve or bid on x amount but it has to be done in EVE's world if you want any part of the IPO. Auditors usually get paid by the IPO to perform a simple check. To be an auditor you need to be a trusted figurehead for the community, someone who everyone knows will tell the truth. Even a heavy paid Auditor that is unknown will have shallow response from the community, so celebrity good standing people make good auditors. And if any Auditor fails they'll have a hard time getting another audit. The community shuns them, people start calling the Auditor a scammer and the one that actually did the scamming gets softens the blow to their own rep because they can say "Hey the auditor said it was OK" Auditors take ALL the risk and put their reputation on the line to help someone sell an IPO. Auditors help CEO's sell shares, and help customers buy those shares, yet the CEO is the one that pays the auditor and if anything goes wrong the customers are the ones throwing the auditors names in the dirt when something goes wrong. In all honestly Customers have no right to bad mouth an auditor unless they PAY for the audit. The way auditors are today really shouldn't be this way. Considering all they do is confirm the CEO's statements about assets and ability to perform what is said by the CEO. An Auditor can't FORCE a CEO to work or to pay dividends or give the money back. That's just not an auditors job. Yet the community here seems to hold Auditors in the same light as the CEO themselves. In sort - The auditor performed their jobs just fine, go whine at the CEO if something goes wrong, if you purchase shares/bonds in any company in EVE you are still taking all the risk. All an Auditor does is say "According to what the CEO has said, I can confirm s/he has the capacity and ability to perform as stated." Auditors are not guarantees, it's as simple as that. Amarr for Life
Salpad	Posted - 2008.06.26 16:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Amrumm Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro While it's true that I've never charged for an audit (and I have no plans to do so), I do usually ask for an opportunity to invest in the scheme (or CEO) in question, or at some future point if they've already sold out. <snip> Some people might argue that this creates a conflict of interest, but I'd say that it creates a strong incentive for me to be thorough. <snip> This makes a lot of sense to me. The auditor gets a guaranteed right to invest up to a certain amount in the bond/IPO (10-20%), either personally or have friends take those shares. Could we all agree that Kazuo is designated a Trusted Auditor, in here, and that he therefore, along with other Trusted Auditors in the future, gets dibs on 15% of all bond and stock IPOs, provided that he performs an audit, even if others manage to reserve all the stocks before he posts to the thread? In essence, I'm proposing that he gets the right to be first in line, and that we may collectively designate others to also be Trusted Auditors, and (again, collectively) remove that status from people whom we no longer trust? -- Salpad
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.06.26 16:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Salpad stuff Collective agreements are like any other community. Held hostage to the lowest common idiot. However I am enjoying the debate and discussion, this is how service markets adjust to the environment. By sharing ideas, experiences, and (hopefully) coming up with mutually agreed upon standards. For instance, all of us agreeing on what auditors get smacks of hubris. We, here, can not impose our will upon all that come in here. So saying that we think auditors should get first dibs isn't going to work. However, those of us who do auditing can look at this and discuss what common practices we ourselves will adhere to in the practice of our services. And this is where the brain storming comes in hearing from all of you since you are all both of our two target market demographs. Investor and Investee, your comments help us to find the path to our own gain without it being at your expense. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Salpad	Posted - 2008.06.26 17:17:00 - [38] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Salpad stuff Collective agreements are like any other community. Held hostage to the lowest common idiot. However I am enjoying the debate and discussion, this is how service markets adjust to the environment. By sharing ideas, experiences, and (hopefully) coming up with mutually agreed upon standards. For instance, all of us agreeing on what auditors get smacks of hubris. We, here, can not impose our will upon all that come in here. So saying that we think auditors should get first dibs isn't going to work. However, those of us who do auditing can look at this and discuss what common practices we ourselves will adhere to in the practice of our services. And this is where the brain storming comes in hearing from all of you since you are all both of our two target market demographs. Investor and Investee, your comments help us to find the path to our own gain without it being at your expense. You auditors could agree on a practice of saying that you're willing to perform an audit only if you get a reservation of X% of the share, where I stand by my previous suggestion of 15 as a good value for X. That way, auditors don't have to visit the group six times a day to be sure to get in on the good IPOs. The question then becomes: who decides who does the audit. The IPO issuer, or the investor community? -- Salpad
Epidemis	Posted - 2008.06.26 19:51:00 - [39] Get the OP some cheese with that wine? An auditor is a special position not everyone can fulfill due to the need for confidentiality. In the past it has been handled by a few trusted sources without any monetary reward, but perhaps that will change, who knows? However it's ******** to get angry with those post, if you dont want to do it for free, then ignore it. It's that simply. Dont clutter these forums with garbage like that.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.06.26 20:42:00 - [40] Originally by: SencneS The way auditors are today really shouldn't be this way. Considering all they do is confirm the CEO's statements about assets and ability to perform what is said by the CEO. An Auditor can't FORCE a CEO to work or to pay dividends or give the money back. That's just not an auditors job. Yet the community here seems to hold Auditors in the same light as the CEO themselves. I agree with most of what you say, but I think you're being a bit pessimistic about this last part. I frequently make it clear that I am constrained by the tools I work with, and I think the vast majority of people here are sensible enough to make their own assessment in the light of the limited information I provide. What my sort of auditing is good for is weeding out the most blatant or half-hearted scam attempts, and encouraging people to be cautious and to think for themselves. So far, at least one such attempt has been stopped in its tracks in the face of this approach, and I consider that a success, even though I was never actually approached to look at it. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri 20:1 low-end compression
jna Black Ash Enterprises	Posted - 2008.06.26 21:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Epidemis Get the OP some cheese with that wine? An auditor is a special position not everyone can fulfill due to the need for confidentiality. In the past it has been handled by a few trusted sources without any monetary reward, but perhaps that will change, who knows? However it's ******** to get angry with those post, if you dont want to do it for free, then ignore it. It's that simply. Dont clutter these forums with garbage like that. I knew there'd be someone who wouldn't let me down! Anyways, as it happens I've enjoyed reading the ensuing discussion (about auditors, their role, responsibilities and remuneration) quite a lot, even though it has little-to-nothing to do with my post. ------------------------------------------------- Caeleste naves interretis res gravissimas sunt
Rho'varo Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.06.26 22:29:00 - [42] Have common auditors been audited themselves? Is there a "web of trust"? Features & Ideas: Winding Up Learning Skills
Sophie Daigneau Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.26 22:54:00 - [43] I'm personally very against any sort of reservation for these sort of things. You put up your isk, that's your dibs period. I recently raised an additional 20b(on top of another 75b already outstanding) internally with Goonswarm and the way I ran it I had a set price per share and folks sent isk to a designated character in increments of the number of shares they wanted. I kept track of that characters wallet and when it crossed the threshold of # of shares being sold I yelled stop and refunded the last few people. Doing it this way made giving out shares even easier since all I had to do was run an api export and copy/paste from excel. I believe where things went wrong here is that people started posting feeler threads just to see if there was any support for their idea, part of which would include others posting how much they'd be willing to invest in the IPO. This is fine, and I think serves a useful purpose to the person running the IPO to see if its even worth moving on to the raising isk step. These feeler threads and isk raising threads have now merged together and is not something that is healthy either from an isk raising, or from an investing standpoint.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.06.26 23:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Rho'varo Have common auditors been audited themselves? Is there a "web of trust"? Actually, my own data is readily available to ebank members and various others. Just to answer this question. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.06.27 01:47:00 - [45] Originally by: jna Not that Shar (or I, for that matter) have egos that need massaging, ofc, but this comment from the recent 4B bond struck me. Originally by: Shar Tegral Imho, too many people keep saying "I'll reserve x till an audit is done." That's saying, "I'll hog the opportunity unless someone else does the hard work of researching things out for me, Oh & nothing for them". I couldn't agree more. It's getting to the point I'm wondering about writing a little bot that simply posts a reply to any post in this forum reading "1B reserved pending audit", leaving me a nice handy get out if it turns out to be rubbish. Discuss, all you "reserve until someone else does all the work" posters. Flames welcome. I'd agree with this for a couple of reasons. First, if people want to passively invest they should put their money in some of the banks, not IPO's. I'm not saying anyone should stop them, I'm saying no one should be doing auditting for free so that complete strangers can feel more comfortable about the investment. Right now there are too many investors and too few investments, it would serve some of the lazier investors right if they were burnt on a few investments that they couldn't be bothered to research or have researched for them. Second, the auditors should be paid for by the investors, and seek information specific to the IPO based on what the investors are looking for. The folks who have auditted for free are very generous, even philanthropic, but that schema is not sustainable. The auditors should be paid by the potential investor(s) and they should be able to examine & verify IPO performance, or other objectives determined by the investor(s).
Rebunus Troth Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.27 02:24:00 - [46] Auditors should get paid whether they wish to remain altruistic and continue to work for nothing or not. If the idea is to begin to model a secondary market then compensation for market research is an good step in that direction. 5% of an IPO startup funding as a fee paid by the investors is piddly compared to potential losses and is generally paid for within the first month. The shares held in reserve for an auditor is also a good monetary incentive and has the added bonus of increasing the attractiveness of the IPO should they choose to take the option. 1. IPO presented 2. Reserves until audit 3. Audit 4. Payment for audit results by individuals sent to their evemail If an IPO is started that is complete garbage then I imagine that the auditor will notice very quickly and can just say no without taking any payment. This also relies on the people paying for the results to remain quiet so that the auditor still gets their money though. Oh, and hi market discussions folder. Trading is great.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.27 04:31:00 - [47] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 27/06/2008 04:32:04 I'm not clear what the problem is. If I were to IPO, I'd certainly expect to compensate an auditor for their services. And I'd be upfront about it. Volunteer auditors are unhealthy in the long term. Open conflicts of interest are ok. People can then decide whether the information presented (and what they can dig up themselves) is good enough.
Maestro Del'Tirith Del'Tirith Holdings	Posted - 2008.06.27 04:33:00 - [48] Somebody above ^^ posed the question of who gets to decide on the auditor, the IPO issuer or the investors. The answer is pretty simple...the only person who has the API key to hand out is the IPO issuer. The investors can sway the issuer to utilize a particular auditor by suggesting it in the thread, but in the end it has to be the decision of the person with the key. I chose Kazuo for my bond because I liked the way I saw his other audits performed...I frankly did not even bother asking who should audit, I just contacted him in game before I ever issued the bond and had him post it in tandem with my bond offering. I will probably contact him again for any future public ventures, because I believe he provides a good viewpoint and am very happy to see that he also raises concerns. That said, if I see that Kazuo has performed an audit, I am more likely to invest based on his feedback than if somebody else performed the audit. Does this mean I can force an IPO issuer to use Kazuo? Probably not. But it is something I will keep in mind when deciding whether to invest. Any bond or IPO issuer worth investing in has taken the time to read the forums and knows whose word would be trusted in this. If they haven't taken that time, they haven't benefited from the market knowledge here or learned from the past mistakes of other IPOs and bonds...why would I want to invest in that?
Demtalin le'Mercennaire The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.27 06:02:00 - [49] I have 2 suggestions which may help. 1) Potential IPO's/Bonds have to get an audit before they post a thread OR 2) Only people who purchase stock after an audit post has been made can buy the stock. Posts made before this point which say "pending an audit" are void, if you want to buy before an audit you have to make the commitment. Those are just 2 possibilities. -------- Billy Jean is not my lover
Ricdic Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.06.27 06:09:00 - [50] I don't think there is any major prerequisite to becoming an auditor. In the case of Kazuo, he wasn't really a prominent MD member however he wasn't afraid to put his hand up and offer to run such a service. At first most people didn't know him. I knew Kazuo through Zzz as he has been quite prominent in the alliance however most didn't. Rather than having a pre-existing reputation to offer his auditing services through, he built his reputation through offering this service and providing good results whenever he done so. In the case of Shar Tegral for example, he already has a pretty solid reputation, through his own business operations, his old websites and his affiliation with EBANK so he didn't necessarily need to prove himself. I want to encourage people to take up an auditor position. It is a relatively easy job with the most important aspect being trust. Trust that the auditor is providing all the information they can pertaining to the issue, and trust that they are not using the information they have seen for personal gain. The latest person interested in such a role is SoleDeo Gloria. He has offered to audit a corp who listed their IPO here a few days ago. Whilst that operation itself has an extremely low chance of success regardless of audit outcome he still wants to give it a shot, and that's what it's all about. When I always talk to people about thinking outside the box, and doing things that aren't mainstream or heavily competed with this is the kind of thing I mean. There is a demand for auditor services and the supply is just a few people who do it as non-profit organisations in their spare time. EBANK were considering RIPO's. Basically where we audit the corporation ourselves, we buy all the shares, and we then resell them (maybe at a small markup) with our "secured" tag on it. So basically if the corp goes bust, EBANK covers the deficit. Obviously we would only do this with corps we ourselves believed would succeed. Anyway this may or may not be something we are still doing once the stock exchange is done, it hasn't yet been confirmed. But if none of our internal members want the position there may be room for an auditor position in this area. Whilst I don't think auditing positions are a huge part of a person's IPO success/failure chances, I do think they can be used to get a good indication on a player's performance pre-IPO to indicate success potential post-IPO. Having said that, it's only a matter of time before someone fakes a month of heavy trades in order to get a decent sized IPO scam. This is probably my biggest concern at this point, as many investors jump to throw money into an IPO that has simply had an audit done on it. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=500043 Largest Empire Research Alliance in EVE!
Jackie Fisher	Posted - 2008.06.27 08:10:00 - [51] Out of curiosity how long does it take to perform an audit?
SoleDeo Gloria Minmatar Mission Runners Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.27 11:37:00 - [52] Originally by: Ricdic EBANK were considering RIPO's. Basically where we audit the corporation ourselves, we buy all the shares, and we then resell them (maybe at a small markup) with our "secured" tag on it. So basically if the corp goes bust, EBANK covers the deficit. Obviously we would only do this with corps we ourselves believed would succeed. Anyway this may or may not be something we are still doing once the stock exchange is done, it hasn't yet been confirmed. But if none of our internal members want the position there may be room for an auditor position in this area. I formally place my hat in the ring for this position! My EVE Online Screen Captures Blog
Banni Vinda Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.06.27 12:38:00 - [53] Originally by: SoleDeo Gloria Originally by: Ricdic ...But if none of our internal members want the position there may be room for an auditor position in this area. I formally place my hat in the ring for this position! Are you reserving your right to apply, pending an audit of the the position being offered?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.06.27 12:45:00 - [54] Originally by: Ricdic EBANK were considering RIPO's. Basically where we audit the corporation ourselves, we buy all the shares, and we then resell them (maybe at a small markup) with our "secured" tag on it. So basically if the corp goes bust, EBANK covers the deficit. Obviously we would only do this with corps we ourselves believed would succeed. Anyway this may or may not be something we are still doing once the stock exchange is done, it hasn't yet been confirmed. But if none of our internal members want the position there may be room for an auditor position in this area. Now see, there is a public position I could get into. I have enough time to pour over someones books and see if they are up to snuff.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.06.27 13:15:00 - [55] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 27/06/2008 13:18:15 Originally by: Jackie Fisher Out of curiosity how long does it take to perform an audit? Well, it depends on the level of detail & feedback requested. Once you've got all the tools set up, and you know what you're looking for, the technical side isn't too bad. The most time-consuming part is usually consulting with the CEO, discussing their plans, and checking that we agree on what I'm going to publish. There are lots of opportunities to make mistakes, and a single one could be quite unfortunate for either one of us. The facetious answer would be that the part that takes longest is convincing people, before you even begin, that you're not going to abuse a trusted position. I'm generally too lazy to take advantage of most information that comes in my direction - a large part of my income comes from my investments, or from fairly low-maintenance schemes where the competition is rather limited and unlikely to request an audit. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri 20:1 low-end compression
Jackie Fisher	Posted - 2008.06.27 13:44:00 - [56] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Well, it depends on the level of detail & feedback requested. Once you've got all the tools set up, and you know what you're looking for, the technical side isn't too bad. The most time-consuming part is usually consulting with the CEO, discussing their plans, and checking that we agree on what I'm going to publish. There are lots of opportunities to make mistakes, and a single one could be quite unfortunate for either one of us. The facetious answer would be that the part that takes longest is convincing people, before you even begin, that you're not going to abuse a trusted position. I'm generally too lazy to take advantage of most information that comes in my direction - a large part of my income comes from my investments, or from fairly low-maintenance schemes where the competition is rather limited and unlikely to request an audit. So, twice half it's length.
saracen9 Drunken Deeds	Posted - 2008.06.27 16:06:00 - [57] I actually came to the MD forum looking for something else but was astounded by the level of interest in my RL profession (at a Big 4 practice company). As someone who performs DD and PFI on a regular basis it would intrigue me to know whether Shar (who is clearly respected) and others are actually auditors in RL too? An initial answer to a question raised about payment to the auditor is that checks and balances need to be in place to ensure that the following broad principles are upheld: 1) Independance 2) Objectivity Obviously there are threats to the above but sufficient sa***uards should be in place. A simple example in RL is that any payment / gift received should equate to less than 5% of the individuals net worth. Anyway, will watch developments with interest
saracen9 Drunken Deeds	Posted - 2008.06.27 16:08:00 - [58] Originally by: Jackie Fisher Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Well, it depends on the level of detail & feedback requested. Once you've got all the tools set up, and you know what you're looking for, the technical side isn't too bad. The most time-consuming part is usually consulting with the CEO, discussing their plans, and checking that we agree on what I'm going to publish. There are lots of opportunities to make mistakes, and a single one could be quite unfortunate for either one of us. The facetious answer would be that the part that takes longest is convincing people, before you even begin, that you're not going to abuse a trusted position. I'm generally too lazy to take advantage of most information that comes in my direction - a large part of my income comes from my investments, or from fairly low-maintenance schemes where the competition is rather limited and unlikely to request an audit. So, twice half it's length. Hey, if we made it simple then how could we justify fees...
SoleDeo Gloria Minmatar Mission Runners Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.27 16:46:00 - [59] Originally by: Banni Vinda Originally by: SoleDeo Gloria Originally by: Ricdic ...But if none of our internal members want the position there may be room for an auditor position in this area. I formally place my hat in the ring for this position! Are you reserving your right to apply, pending an audit of the the position being offered? That! ^ My EVE Online Screen Captures Blog
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.06.27 16:57:00 - [60] Originally by: saracen9 As someone who performs DD and PFI on a regular basis it would intrigue me to know whether Shar (who is clearly respected) and others are actually auditors in RL too? Early in my life I took up accounting as a trade. However I joined the army (Who-rah Airborne!) before I went far enough to go for a CPA license. After Desert Storm I hung up my parachute, went into civilian life and became an IT geek. (Mind you I was one already in the Army mostly since computers were just starting to creep into the day-to-day.) I culminated my IT career as CTO for a corporation that, sadly, is no longer functioning. The dot com bubble bursting caught the company zigging when it should've been zagging. I was sufficiently retired by that point and I had started my next career step - the clergy. Now a days I chair most of the finance committees in the parish & dioceses as well as providing consultations with many seniors in our area. I also serve as a court appointed legal guardian for many seniors (w/o remaining family) who suffer from age related debilities. (Though over the past half year+ I have had to be assisted myself in providing some of this assistance.) To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.

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