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Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.05.17 12:32:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: WhiteTiger
Really, I think this is a dead topic. Viceroy's idea of stopping everything 15km from the gates was already tried on Chaos once and people didn't like it. Mobile Warp disruptor where added into the game instead. If you are too cheap or lazy to use a one then I don't think you deserve an easy kill.
One problem is the CCP has been very slow releasing new tech. It might take many small disruptor to block a gate, but there are 2 larger sizes planned. With the largest 40km size blocking at gate really won't be hard at all. Now, of course you can't use them in .4-.1, but I don't really think all the people at CCP think that there should be combat at the gates in these systems and you might see changes to stop that.
Read the thread not just the first post.
It's not just about catching people at gates.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.17 12:49:00 -
[92]
This is not a (pure) PvP issue
Speaking as a committed carebear with no (current) interest in low sec or 0.0 space, and running blockades:
InstJumps ruin the game in several ways:
1. They are an outright immersion breaker - if I *can* warp to within 0meters of a structure why doesn't the UI let me.
2. They **** up agent missions by making average mission completion times insanely short - making missions impossible to complete by any players that *dont* like abusing exploits.
3. They "cheapen" the process of building ships. Even in save 0.9 space I dont need to trade off cargo space for speed. My slow ass indy can be kitted out for maximum cargo with no change to travel times.
4. They hide other gameplay issues.
4.1 The anger vented by players whenever the possibility of removing insta jump BMs is mentioned doesnt mean we should keep insta jumps - it means that the 15K run to gates is too damned slow.
(The possiblity exists of course that too many players are whiney asses who cant be arsed to reconfigure their indy for speed not cargo.)
4.2 Gate ganking too is not an exuse to keep them. If its too easy to gank people at a gate without insta jump BMs, then some alternate way to discourage gate camping, or to make evading camps easier, needs to be developed.
In conclusion: I agree totally with Viceroy's sentiment that insta BMs must go. If, as a result of their removal, Zombie Inc. ganks me repeatedly - thats fine. CCP will know then they have a balance issue to deal with, and im sure they will.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.05.17 12:51:00 -
[93]
people are arguing about using mobile warp disrupters better but they can only be used in 0.0.
I am involved in corp wars within the empire and many of my enemies use instas to jump past me and despite what some people say on irc, it is next to impossible to catch someone using instas even in my interceptor warping faster than they are.
Follwing Vice's idea solves that imbalance as enemy fleets within empire space can safely move past ours as the interferance from warp and immediatly jumping makes it impossible to catch them.
I agree, travel times do suck and many people use instas just to lower travel time and not avoid camps.
As Estios pointed out we all have strategic bm's which are for eg. 100k or 1000k gate spots. And we dont want to lose them with a bm wipe.
I support Vice's idea, people wil have to use 'travelling' loadouts with multiple mwd's etc to run camps if they happen to warp into them.
We could do with a few more routes into 0.0 I guess as well but that is a discussion for another thread.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Malius
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Posted - 2004.05.17 13:17:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Malius on 17/05/2004 13:52:05
I'm all for insta bookmarks going, if some other way of countering the mind numbing, boring, tedious traveling to anywhere aspect in this game is put in.
.. I have less a problem with insta bm's, as I do with safespots and logging out.
1. Get covert ops or something else to find safe spots faster in the game now. (I know you can use scanner, it takes too long).
2. Make ships stay in the game when logged out in space for at least 5 minutes, and not warp away.
You can leave insta's in (if mainly to keep me from going insane while traveling long distances), if 1 and 2 are properly implemented, unless someone docks you will be able to get them.
Edit: Sure are a lotta people using alts to agree with themselves .. heh course this is Zombie we're talking about :) Anyway, wanted to at a 3rd point to the 2 above.
3. Make docking at a station take up to 2 minutes, if the target is engaged.
Implementing these 3 points, and you move pvp away from the gates potentially, but still have the option of quick travel through insta bookmarks.
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C0yote
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Posted - 2004.05.17 13:37:00 -
[95]
Didn't CCP state recently that thay want to move pvp away from the gates. If this is the case I doubt the will remove insta's.
insta's do have good and bad points
If you are doing a lot of hauling insta's do stop you going rapidly insane.
If you are involved in pvp they are a right royale pain.
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Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2004.05.17 13:44:00 -
[96]
I'm for it. Get rid of 'em.
I make my living from trading minerals as well but still agree with this.
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Drakxter
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Posted - 2004.05.17 13:51:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Mr Resident
So - simple solution. Put in a ten (example) second delay while the ship negotiates with the gate before jumping. This still keeps the advantage of Instajumps (they speed up travel) but allows the campers time to ply their evil trade :-).
The bad idea about this is: What about those that dont use insta jumps, they now have to wait even longer. The fly time + 10 sec delay.
No, stop insta bookmarks by working by not allowing people to jump any close to stargates/stations/any bigger objects then 15km.
And add the "auto MWD/AB" idea which one of the other posters came up with.
Thats the way foward if you ask me 
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Most tired of thing atm:
- Mods on the forum saying: "Please use the bug report page to submit bugs, the forum is not the place to post them." and then closing a topic. |
Imhotep Wade
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Posted - 2004.05.17 14:28:00 -
[98]
Personally I think this is a side issue.
I believe the security at gates is far too strong. Pirates should be able to kill gate security and take over the gate till reinforcements arrive to blast them away. The current gate security should depend on th enumber of jumps through the gate.
high jumps means gate owner will want high protection, but low jumps means low protection. Who can affort maximum protection at every single gate?
Once gate security is removed, pirates should be able to shut down the gate every few minutes, with proper skills. gate should automatically reset though so as not to bog the game down completely.
Thats just a shot in the dark. I feel strongly that gate defence is too perfect and should vary much more.
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Serak Tur
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Posted - 2004.05.17 15:19:00 -
[99]
I say leave them alone. I don't care if my enemies use them or not (and they do). They are counterable.
-Serak Tur
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Aldelphius
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Posted - 2004.05.17 15:26:00 -
[100]
With the changes to mining in 0.0 space after chaos, mining has slowed dramatically, except in systems close to stations. imo the majority of insta-jumps are used to travel in 0.0 space.
the reason devs have not removeds them yet is because t would cause a collapse of high minerals in the player driven economy model, which is opposite what the devs want. With the introductions of mobile refinerys and other POS i think we will finaly see a fix to the insta jump issue.
mega and zyd are abundant in 0.0, its just no one wants to make the effort to haul it to empire because of low constant demand for them. Much better to keep them in the corp for internal ship building. who wants to mine-refine-haul-sell @ npc prices when there are many other things you can do to make just as much money?
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.05.17 18:22:00 -
[101]
Viceroy,
While although I understand what you're trying to say it doesn't actually have any statistical proof to back up your claims.
The basic arguement is that they hinder/prevent PvP from occuring and make it possible to make too much ISK per hour.
However these BMs have been in since day one and there are still many ships lost daily and it is quite easy for a pair of individuals to rack up 4-10 quality (cruiser and above) kills per night (2-3 hours of play).
As for how it affects trade/mining etc... You actually have no frame of reference for this one since BMs have been in since day one. If BMs were to go away then the ISK being made would/should go down accordingly. However I doubt your qualifications for knowing if the current figure is too high/low. So in this case it's not the BMs you have a problem with but the amount of money a person can make. If they reduced the amount of ISK that could be made from BM affecting activities it would solve this percieved problem for you as well.
Which leaves us one true reason why BMs should go away and that is PvP. Like many game devs your first reaction is to somehow limit the player. Try looking at it from a different perspective. CCP could add more stuff to do in space and stimulate more and more people to fly around, this would undoubtedly increase the daily casualty count by increasing the targets and reducing time between kills.
TBH I am against nerfs on general principal. I would always rather see a solution that offers more to its players and can still have an affect on what the percieved problem is.
Anyway, sorry but I'll choose option 3 in this case.
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Mr nStuff
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Posted - 2004.05.17 19:35:00 -
[102]
Yes. Option 3.. MWD (Mobile Warp Disrupters)
You set these things up at a gate. And it stops an insta-jumper in his tracks.
It's grrrreaaaat.... oh.
5 R&D Agents, 10months, Zero BPO Offers..
Onboard navigational [Planetary Avoidance] computer.
My account will be suspended at the end of the current play period.
Expires on 19. September 2004 |
BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.05.17 19:49:00 -
[103]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 17/05/2004 19:50:35
Instajumps have to go. But a bookmark wipe must also be done, after the f11 safespot is made impossible, to prevent people from warping to their existing lame **** bookmarks
Remaking a few 100k bookmarks will take time for those of you who have them, but that 4000 AU **** has to go.
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Drakxter
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Posted - 2004.05.17 20:07:00 -
[104]
They dont have to do a total wipe. They just need to remove the ones that are locations in empty space. Those that was made on a container that aint there anymore.. Now ofcourse, it all depends on how they safe the waypoints data..
Also the "safespots" they should be able to clear without to much trouble, as they just need to remove all those "outside" the system. (a set amount of AU from the sun.)
-------------
Most tired of thing atm:
- Mods on the forum saying: "Please use the bug report page to submit bugs, the forum is not the place to post them." and then closing a topic. |
Mr nStuff
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Posted - 2004.05.17 20:18:00 -
[105]
They would have to warn people weeks in advance if they did something like this. Think of all the people that have secure containers out in the middle of no where. You just remove their bookmarks, it's going to take months for the GMs to move everybodies secure containers to a place that they could reach them again.
2.. They are going to make elite ships that can warp to players anywhere.
3.. If they do make elite ships to do that, they should also make a counter to it. A module that you can fit which would make you safe at a safespot. Cloaking?
Ok.. I'm talking BALANCE.. So if you have a problem with balance. Don't read this post. oops too late. 
5 R&D Agents, 10months, Zero BPO Offers..
Onboard navigational [Planetary Avoidance] computer.
My account will be suspended at the end of the current play period.
Expires on 19. September 2004 |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.05.17 20:44:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Viceroy
But my argument isnt the counterability of instajumps. They are counterable, although it requires great effort. Many people will start saying "use mobiles! camp the other side!" in a desperate attempt to save their precioussssssss instajumps that have turned them all into furry monsters over the past months.
Instajumps have to be removed, they are seriously screwing up every aspect of the game at the moment, from mining/trade to pvp. Even most of the people that use them agree, they are the devil in disguise and must destroyed!
So here are three proposals;
1) The right choice; Remove them completely. Put a 15km dome around all stargates that function like mobile warp disrupters, except that they dont constantly warp scramble, just stop all ships at 15km no matter what.
...
Constructive criticism is welcome
You pointed out yourself the solutions to instajumps and yet you refuse to use them since they "require great effort".
Train up that skill to level 3 and use the mobile warp disruptors.
If that is too hard I know a nice big fat Veldspar roid down in New Caldari that hasn't got an instajump.
¼©¼
a history |
Bohr
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Posted - 2004.05.17 20:50:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Viceroy
Hanielin, I'm sorry to say that you;
1) Have no idea how warfare in EVE is conducted
2) Have no idea how alliances operate
3) Have no idea how pirates find their prey
4) Have no idea how the EVE economy works
5) Have no idea how PvP in EVE is connected with everything else
You have no experience in this area, you are talking out of spite. I'd take your post apart, but it doesnt even have 1 good point, so sorry ;-)
Care to elaborate?
Anyway. A solution could be an uncertainty factor when jumping to a location of 0-5 or 10 kms. Could give the campers that precioussss time to insta gank a hauler or courier ship, and for us fledglings a reason for bad things to happen to us. Problem solved and all should be somewhat content.
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Kanaan
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Posted - 2004.05.17 20:51:00 -
[108]
Viceroy you have made plenty good points on this topic and I must say that I am convinced.
The only point that I disagree with would be the wiping of all bookmarks. Our corporation being PVP orientented has many many supply cans located in systems under contention. This saves us having to jump 4 or 5 systems to get more ammo and that sort of thing. Also alot of the fluffier sort also have ships parked out in low traffic systems that they use for mining and such. If the bookmarks were wiped there would be literally billions of isk worth of stuff floating in space unable to be retrieved by their owners.
The only solution I could see to this they way you have suggested, would be to give people ample warning to remove their gear from space. This however would result in the loss of plenty of indy's trying to get all of that gear out of our more dangerous systems, not to mention the time involved.
The idea of a 15k bubble around the jumpgate would make any of the insta-jumps worthless while allowing the frequently used "strategic" BM's to stay in place.
As this post is on pg. 6 I don't expect many people will survive through the previous 5 pages to get here so...
War does not decide who is right but who is left. |
DJTheBaron
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Posted - 2004.05.17 21:11:00 -
[109]
isnt the solution to simply not inable bookmarks within 20-15k of either colidable objects with the concord excuse being something like due to colisions or dangerous warp traffic in docking/jumping zones etc
tho im not sure how ccp could detect and remove/handicap existing cordinate bookmarks unhless they just neft them all as the ligitimate bookmarks are for colidable structres
__________________________________________________
Scum, your all scum. |
Rizmordan Hillgotlieb
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Posted - 2004.05.17 21:11:00 -
[110]
/me holds his "instajump carebear bookmarks" tight to his chest and sings Sergio Mendez...
I was as wrong as I could be
To let you get away from me
I'll regret that move
For as long as I'm livin'
But now that I've come to see the light
All I wanna do is make things right
So just say the word
And tell me that I'm forgiven
You and me
We're gonna be better than we were before
I used you then but now I intend
To fess up and use you even more
This time you can be sure
I'm never gonna let you go
I'm gonna store you in "people and places" forever
Gonna try and make up for all the times
I didn't use you so
Gonna hold these bookmarks close to me
From this day on we're gonna be together
Oh I swear this time
I'm never gonna let you go
Looking back now
It seems so clear
I had it all when you were here
Oh you gave it all
And I took it for granted
But if there's some life left in you
Some flicker of use
That still shines through
Let's work it out
Let's talk about second chances
Wait and see
It's gonna be
Sweeter than it was before
I used you then but now I intend
To dedicate myself to using you even more
This time you can be sure
I'm never gonna let you go
I'm gonna store you in "people and places" forever
Gonna try and make up for all the times
I didn't use you so
Gonna hold these bookmarks close to me
From this day on we're gonna be together
Oh I swear this time
I'm never gonna let you go
Posting for Numbnutz |
Kipkruide
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Posted - 2004.05.17 21:16:00 -
[111]
hmm, discussed before, 2-3 times, dismissed before. nuff said.
they didn't create the mobile warp jammers for nothing, go buy some.
And as usual the most ferverent supporters seem to be pirates claiming to make the game better for everyone. uhm lol.
as was said before many times it will **** off a lot more people then it will help. Although i do see some personal benefit since i don't move around much anywayz :).
oh guess that's option 3
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Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.05.17 21:21:00 -
[112]
Cant believe I missed this thread, but I definitely agree with Viceroy here, instajumps are a pain in the ass.
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Earthan
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Posted - 2004.05.17 21:34:00 -
[113]
Yes Viceroy keep it up , im with you... what the hell am i saying? supprting Viceroy, a pirate??
But seruisly insta jumps shoulod go cant decide if first or second of your options Viceroy, more 1.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Bohr
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Posted - 2004.05.17 21:35:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Viceroy
Ceverus, I said that because I knew a certain breed of vicious creatures would try to make this all about pirates and anti-pirates, unfortunatly your desperate attempt to make it so has failed. I will destroy you preciousssssss instajumps!
Now that is a very neutral and intellectual assumption 
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Keyes
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Posted - 2004.05.17 21:37:00 -
[115]
Simple equation folks...
Blockade Runners:
Uses Insta-Bookmark = Very Reliable (Very Good)
Penalty if Bookmark fails = Lethal (Very Bad)
Campers:
To Counter Insta-Bookmark = Not very reliable (Very Bad)
Penalty if Camping Fails = Near Nothing (Very Good)
See? The rewards and setbacks even up. Insta-bookmarks are easy because the slightest failure using them is fatal. Countering them SHOULD be very difficult because failing to catch a runner is what? near no penalty unless they "happen" to have buddies who manage to catch you before you warp out? And honestly folks, the odds of a gate camper being ganked are almost nothing, donĘt kid yourself. I really shouldnĘt have to go into detail about that.
Anyway thatĘs my 2 cents. Sorry if someone else mentioned this before, too many entrees to read.
Keyes-
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Amiga A4000
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Posted - 2004.05.17 21:58:00 -
[116]
I shall show my age now, how about adding an element of risk to a bookmark - anybookmark. Some of you will remember Elite the first pirate, mining trading space sim to really make its mark.
Anyway at certain times when you JUMPED you'ed go into another dimension and encounter the dreaded Thargs, well a simular mishap could apply to bookmarks, say 90% of the time, like all mechanical and electrical set ups they work perfectly but that odd 10% throws up a shortfall or longjump slightly off the required destination, say 15 20 or 30 klicks. This would make everyone wary of using them, making them sort of exciting for 0.0 and giving pirates another advantage in "their" territory.
Don't flame me it's only an idea.
Don't try to be a great man,
just be a man and let history
make it's own judgements.
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Horus Kahn
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Posted - 2004.05.17 22:01:00 -
[117]
Nice post Viceroy - Insta jumps are simply not in the spirit of a game like this. CCP please do your stuff.
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Bohr
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Posted - 2004.05.17 22:06:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Lao Tzu
It's not just about catching people at gates.
But it sure as hell is also about camping
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GoGo Yubari
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Posted - 2004.05.17 22:09:00 -
[119]
Agreed 100%.
Option 1. Now.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.05.17 22:30:00 -
[120]
I kind of glazed over after the first two pages of flames and counter-flames.
Can someone explain, in a few short snappy sentences, the advantage of killing instajumps completely, rather than using warp disruptor modules to kill them at the gate you're camping?
I can think of these:
(1) Killing them completely means the gankers don't need to spend any money.
(2) Killing them completely means the gankers don't need to risk losing them if a force comes in that they can't handle.
Since neither of these is a bonus (they just encourage mindless ganking) ... what's the benefit?
I can see an argument from Viceroy that the disruptor modules don't work properly - he may even be right, I don't use the things  - but that's an argument for fixing the modules. It's no argument at all for killing instajumps.
What's the argument?
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
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