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Valorian
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:11:00 -
[211]
Simple solutions to instajump bookmarks at gates (and insta dock bookmarks at stations):
If your ship is in warp but slowing down to near normal space speeds and comes within a certain distance of a gate (or station) have a "safety overide" drop the ship out of warp so that it acts the same (15km) as if it was warping to the gate (station) itself.
Alternatively if the safety overide detects a gate (or station) within a certain distance (say 5-10km and less) while still in warp just before dropping to normal space speeds, the overide kicks in and extends the warp distance by 1-2000 km.
Either option would make insta jump/dock bookmarks at these objects worthless.
An NPC Corporation is not the pilot of its ships and structures! |
DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:13:00 -
[212]
Everyone argues that removing instas *because* <random existing gameplay mechanic would cause failure>
The point is, with the removal of instas there would HAVE to be some balancing aspects:
1. A general way to speed up travel is desirable to keep the universe the same apparent size. If it becoems significantly longer to reach places that players can already reach, then travel is nerfed and players will get ****ed off and leave. You cant in a MMORPG take things away from players. They are a whiney lot and dont accept changes that negatvly effect them even if its something they never should have had and it effects the (inteded) game experience negatively.
2. Other methods to make indies survive gate camps. If instas are the only way to run blockades, and blockades are meant to be runnable, then indies need to be upgraded. Speed, Armor and Shielding could all be loaded on to make hardy indies that are difficult to take down.
I mean, sure, pirates like to blow stuff up. However, the game must be balanced to be fun for both (blockade) pirates and blockade runners. Which means that CCP *must* give sweet loving to indies until a desired % of indies encountering a "reference" blockade escape it one way or another.
That said - as a matter of principal - players should NOT be able to both run a blockade AND totally avoid "combat".
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eddie valvetino
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:14:00 -
[213]
 Originally by: Valorian
Simple solutions to instajump bookmarks at gates (and insta dock bookmarks at stations):
If your ship is in warp but slowing down to near normal space speeds and comes within a certain distance of a gate (or station) have a "safety overide" drop the ship out of warp so that it acts the same (15km) as if it was warping to the gate (station) itself.
Alternatively if the safety overide detects a gate (or station) within a certain distance (say 5-10km and less) while still in warp just before dropping to normal space speeds, the overide kicks in and extends the warp distance by 1-2000 km.
But Insta are good, not just for running blockades.. but just for getting around.
I agree it's not fun for the Pirate and less fun for the Haulers. but it can take an age to move stuff around.
Either option would make insta jump/dock bookmarks at these objects worthless.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) |
Bohr
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:16:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Telk Behm'shai
Alotta these post are very funneh. I am not a pirate, I use intas; a few, kinda scared to ask who has the most.  They are very usefull and very quick. They cheapen the EvE experience for both sides of the field (i.e. Retards: Pirates and NON-pirates), I agree they should be nerfed; in that you can use'em but they have some kinda draw back. Of what that would be I have no clue.
Please continue...
As i allready suggested. Let them have a dice roll miss of 0-10 kms, each time you jump to one, 5kms is added as a bonus for the time you took to make them, 0-10 is the uncertainty factor. Could be your lucky day or your worst nightmare coming true in the form of evil Viceroy (j/k)
Still think it could be done easilier by keeping them in game, but if a group of people is strongly against them and another is strongly for them, some solution or a middle ground has to be reached.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:17:00 -
[215]
Originally by: NeoMorph
Viceroy how many times have you got to be told... THE DEVS ARE NOT GONNA DO AWAY WITH THE INSTAJUMPS!!!!
If they did it would do away with the Warp Disruptor Field Emmiters...
Not going to say any more on the subject as this is just like a child screaming at the parents over and over just to get their own way.
Viceroy: "Daddy CCP I wanna get rid of instajumps"
Daddy CCP: "Sorry son but we have given you Warp Disrupter Emmiters... you will have to make do with those instead!"
Viceroy: "Daddy CCP I wanna get rid of instajumps.... Pleeeeeeeeeeeease"
Daddy CCP: "I'm sorry but repeating yourself wont make it happen"
Viceroy: "PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE Daddy CCP!!!"
Daddy CCP: "NO.... I've made my decision and you screaming about it wont change my mind but people will really think you are just a crybaby you know."
Viceroy: "I WANT INSTAJUMPS GONE.... MWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
Daddy CCP: "Keep it up and I will have to send you to your room young man!"
Viceroy: "But DADDY CCP... I REALLY WANT THE INSTAJUMPS GONE!!!!!"
Daddy CCP: "Sorry... that's it... I'm taking away your posting priviliges. Now go to your room.
THATS ABSOLUTLY HILARIOUS! HO HO HO!!! l0l0l!!
BAD Viceroy for posting image! - Orestes
OMG LOLLERSKATES! IT DOESNT GET ANY BETTER THAN THAT!!!
Ok, next trollish post with little point and failing humour?
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:22:00 -
[216]
Quote:
As i allready suggested. Let them have a dice roll miss of 0-10 kms, each time you jump to one, 5kms is added as a bonus for the time you took to make them, 0-10 is the uncertainty factor. Could be your lucky day or your worst nightmare coming true in the form of evil Viceroy (j/k)
You know, its not that I think thats a bad idea, but i think its more cruel than just removing instajumps altogether 
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Drakxter
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:24:00 -
[217]
Originally by: NeoMorph
Viceroy how many times have you got to be told... THE DEVS ARE NOT GONNA DO AWAY WITH THE INSTAJUMPS!!!!
If they did it would do away with the Warp Disruptor Field Emmiters...
Not going to say any more on the subject as this is just like a child screaming at the parents over and over just to get their own way.
It would not do away with warp disruptor fields.. You know why.. Becuase they can be used to stop people from warping away from star gates, roid belts, stations. Stop people from warping to close to installations, like deployable stations. Stop people from getting close to roid belts.. Hell you could still use them at gates ones insta jumps are gone, to stop people from warping in to close.
They wont be made useless, and if you think that, your narrow minded.
The rest of what you said was just trolling/flaming, and not needed.
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Most tired of thing atm:
- Mods on the forum saying: "Please use the bug report page to submit bugs, the forum is not the place to post them." and then closing a topic. |
Bohr
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:26:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Viceroy
Ok, next trollish post with little point and failing humour?
That wold be you 
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:27:00 -
[219]
Quote:
It would not do away with warp disruptor fields.. You know why.. Becuase they can be used to stop people from warping away from star gates, roid belts, stations. Stop people from warping to close to installations, like deployable stations. Stop people from getting close to roid belts.. Hell you could still use them at gates ones insta jumps are gone, to stop people from warping in to close.
They wont be made useless, and if you think that, your narrow minded.
The rest of what you said was just trolling/flaming, and not needed.
Not to mention mobiles can effectivly stop people using microwarpdrives, since they leave them out of warp further from the gate, allowing time for web+scramble.
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Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:38:00 -
[220]
so you say instas can't go because then you can't bypass blockades with your indy anymore? sorry, but imo you're not supposed to run or bypass blockades in a single unescorted indy. if you can i think something is wrong.
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Per'Ardua Ad'Astra
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:42:00 -
[221]
Originally by: DeFood
 This is NOT about Piracy!
Sheesh!
FFS! Are you a complete MORON?
THIS IS ABOUT PIRACY! If its about "realism" why the f**k hasn't there been a 10 page descussion on the lame collision-detection and warping through objects etc etc, or any of the other "unrealistic" aspects of this game??? Is it because those aspects don't prevent pirates getting easy prey by any chance?
All you muppets bleating on about this having nothing to do with PvP and piracy, stop insulting everyone's intelligence FFS.
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Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2004.05.19 10:52:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Per'Ardua Ad'Astra
FFS! Are you a complete MORON?
THIS IS ABOUT PIRACY! If its about "realism" why the f**k hasn't there been a 10 page descussion on the lame collision-detection and warping through objects etc etc, or any of the other "unrealistic" aspects of this game??? Is it because those aspects don't prevent pirates getting easy prey by any chance?
All you muppets bleating on about this having nothing to do with PvP and piracy, stop insulting everyone's intelligence FFS.
i wonder if that makes me a pirate then.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 11:00:00 -
[223]
Yes - every day I launch, insta BM out to my favorite belt, and gate camp while mining away.
Too, I perform vicious acts of piracy when I insta from one end of gallente to Caldari space in my Iteron V.
I am particularly merciless, and podkill all come'ers when running kill missions for an agent, using insta's to get to and from the common spawn locations.
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Pychian Vanervi
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Posted - 2004.05.19 11:06:00 -
[224]
Insta jumps really need to go as Viceroy says. I have to say I feel like a hypocrite writing this as I have recently started using them. Mostly because of the ribbing I got from my corp about my policy of none use.
The reason they have to go is because its just gameplay killing. In escence you by pass most of the possible encounter you will have traveling point A to B. It all well and good saying travel times would be too long if they were removed, well so what, it would mean indy pilots who were hard core could set up business's for that purpose alone. Market prices would be a lot more diverse region to region as hauling cost would be figured into the item cost.
Fleets would have to take into account the slower ships on their ops, not just all insta jump to war. Small frigate skirmish's would be the initial encounters folled behind by the heavy hitter.
Regions would be more like communities, relocation would be more difficult so player would get to know their local corp neighbours. Where as now you can pretty much up sticks and go any place without the worry of a 2-3hr travel time.
Escorts for haulers would be another viable business or corp role.
I could go on about the benifits of having them removed but, I guess its going to be a lost cause.
Until players realise the big picture of the reason and not that they make travel quicker and help make billions of isk then maybe we could see it implimented.
And for all the player who talk rubbish about it reducing the fun and making the 2hr a night players game pointless, well I am such a player and I have had nothing but fun.
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It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
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Pychian Vanervi
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Posted - 2004.05.19 11:07:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Per'Ardua Ad'Astra
FFS! Are you a complete MORON?
THIS IS ABOUT PIRACY! If its about "realism" why the f**k hasn't there been a 10 page descussion on the lame collision-detection and warping through objects etc etc, or any of the other "unrealistic" aspects of this game??? Is it because those aspects don't prevent pirates getting easy prey by any chance?
All you muppets bleating on about this having nothing to do with PvP and piracy, stop insulting everyone's intelligence FFS.
I guess I must be a pirate at heart then!!!
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It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
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Vigo Barboza
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Posted - 2004.05.19 11:09:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Viceroy
I'm not saying its impossible to counter instajumps. I'm not saying mobiles suck and they dont work at all (although they fail a lot). I'm not saying its IMPOSSIBLE to jump with a ship and web/scramble him on the otherside. These are all possible.
The thing is, the use/aquiring of instajumps doesnt balance the reward for their use at all. They are free, easy to use, easy to aquire. None of their counters are like that. Instajumps are all-win, no-lose, unlike mobiles/jip camping or using inties.
They should have a drawback, since they dont, they should be removed.
.......
When you have an indy with 5 expanders, you should be;
1) Slow
2) Vulnerable
3) Profitable
(1&2 are the risk, 3 is the reward)
When you have an indy with 5 nanofibers/wcs, you should be;
1) Faster
2) Less-vulnerable
3) Less-profitable
(See that the risk is reduced and so is the reward)
Its not that hard to understand, you just have to let go of your preciousss bookmarks and get a clue;
If you're set up for speed/survivability, you should have a much greater chance of survival.
If you're set up for maximum profit (cargo space/warfare), you should have much less chance of survival.
Battleship with double mwd + wcs/nanofiber should be safe.
Battleship with 32896263 tachyon + 2986 damage mod should be dead.
That is the whole concept of TRAVEL, just like the rest of the game. If you sacrifice your REWARD, you get less RISK. If you want maximum REWARD, you have to take the RISK.
Agree with all this.
I Suggest Viceroy fits out a Badger with expanders (not nanos) and runs a few blockades to see how fautless his IJBMs are.
Solution is simple - fix the counters (make the bubbles more reliable) Make BMs non copyable or non transferable (if you want them you have to invest time/effort/ships in making them...)
Recruitment
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Sqalevon
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Posted - 2004.05.19 11:12:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Per'Ardua Ad'Astra
Originally by: DeFood
This is NOT about Piracy!
Sheesh!
FFS! Are you a complete MORON?
THIS IS ABOUT PIRACY! If its about "realism" why the f**k hasn't there been a 10 page descussion on the lame collision-detection and warping through objects etc etc, or any of the other "unrealistic" aspects of this game??? Is it because those aspects don't prevent pirates getting easy prey by any chance?
All you muppets bleating on about this having nothing to do with PvP and piracy, stop insulting everyone's intelligence FFS.
Have u ever tried to kill someone who had instajumps ?
I've tried, and the only time i was succesfull was when I equiped enough smartbombs to blast the enemy's ship away. ( wich only works in 0.0 )
Killing someone who has Instajumps is next to impossible, especially in Empire space, cause it limits your ways of making sure he gets away ( u cant use mobile warp disruptors, or use the smartbombs to kill small ships. )
That is the problem !
I know, cause i ran enough blockades, sometimes in my industrial.
and before we get the "u can always catch a ship on the other side"
In some cases thats impossible, ( chokepoints on 0.0 - Empire boarders )
Like HED-GP or B-VIP9, and there are more situations, that are plain frustrating.
This is about PvP in general, both Empire corp wars, Pirating, and Alliance wars.
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Sqalevon
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Posted - 2004.05.19 11:15:00 -
[228]
I forgot to mention, Indy's being able to haul extremely fast and quite riskless
And complete BS fleet being too mobile my oppinion.
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Gabriel Karade
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Posted - 2004.05.19 11:44:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 19/05/2004 11:45:44
I agree with the idea of a 15Km hard limit around stations/gates, particularly from a role-playing perspective for æcollisionÆ avoidance (or from the station POV warping in within the 15Km limit results in the station manager banning you from docking for endangering his station through recklessness  )
However I have some suggestions for some other additions:
1. Local channel removed in Non-Empire space and Empire space with security status of below 0.5. In high security highway systems and the like fair enough, perhaps it would be a CONCORD/Navy requirement for space-lane users to broadcast ID in these systems, but not in the un-patrolled backwater of Empire/open space. Alternatively leave it in place but make joining the local channel optional in systems below 0.5. If you want to communicate with a stranger in system youÆd have to have them in scanner range first..
2. æNumber of pilots in spaceÆ removed from non-Empire space. I would however leave in Ships/Pods destroyed (the insurance companies/CONCORD would probably log the details of system a ship is lost in with an insurance payout).
The effects of both of the above would mean it actually possible to sneak around systems in anonymity which benefits both pirates (prey does not bolt at the first sign of pirate in local allowing sneak attacks) and miners/haulers (Pirates/hostile forces would have to actively patrol to detect you). Obviously this would favour those competent in the usage of the scanner.
It would also add more dynamics to large scale actions; no more blob wars, proper ambushes/scouting/rearguard actions, as fleets would not automatically know if the enemy in system or the strength of the enemy in system.
3. Increase number routes in/out of above systems. Again for increased æsneakingÆ around and to force patrolling to catch people.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Aeir
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Posted - 2004.05.19 11:55:00 -
[230]
Apparently people in AUNENEN didn't get the word about "Insta-jumps" yesterday. So the theory about "everyone uses them" is totally wrong. See my sig...
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Jav Rendei
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Posted - 2004.05.19 12:01:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Jav Rendei on 19/05/2004 12:05:33
I don't think these bookmarks should be nerfed. What I do believe though is that there should be a limit as to their use.
To create a bookmark I'd introduce a new skill - Advanced Navigation. I'd make this skill a rank 8.
The character who created the bookmark is the ONLY person who can use it - no more copying or trading bm's.
For every level of Advanced Nav you learn you're allowed to create say 10 bookmarks (giving a maximum of 50 in total)- if you want to create a new one but have reached the limit for your particualr skill level, an old one must be deleted first.
These proposals would limit the use of bm's but not completely nerf them. Eventually, only the players who are dedicated enough to put the skill-learning time in and take the time to go out and actually create them will use them.
Limiting people to no more than 50 bookmarked gates (assuming someone learns Advanced Nav. all the way to level 5) represents a tiny fraction of all the gates in EVE. I really don't see how that can detract from the realism of the game.
When you've been playing the game for a year or so, travelling the same old routes day after day going about your business - believe me bookmarks are a godsend. So I say no to nerfing them, but yes to limiting their use.
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Trebalas
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Posted - 2004.05.19 12:24:00 -
[232]
I didn't read all the previous posts, but while reading I had an idea, a consensual one ;)
Instajump bookmarks are great, but SHARING them kills the game...
Setting them is time expensive, so they cost something to the one who creates them. But on the other hand, once created they become free to give away to your corp mates or friends. Initial creation cost divided by unlimited instantiations makes them free in the end...
So my idea would be give them a cost, either by limiting the number of their uses or by restricting their copying. Maybe they could be managed in the same way blueprints are : original bookmarks (infinite or limited number of uses), bookmarks copies (limited number of uses, creating a copy would require time/money/skill...).
From another perspective, the issue is that they're both an User Interface stuff (during creation, use) and an ingame merchandise (once copied), this merchandise being free. In the highly capitalistic world of EVE, this seems a little strange ;)
That's just a starting idea. Feel free to use and comment. Hope it will help...
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chillz
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Posted - 2004.05.19 12:55:00 -
[233]
Killing instas would kill hauling.
Would you ever attempt to haul anything valuable from 0.0 back to Empire in a ship that does 150m/s and takes a couple of minutes to get to warp speed?
Oh, sorry. You don't want to work for your gank.
You say there is not cost to instas. I've spent many evenings making them rather than mining. They cost you making money time so they aren't free.
The most sensible solution would be to make them so they couldn't be copied. Then if you're willing to put in the time making them you can use them.
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A gun and a packet of sandwiches.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - Hunter S Thompson
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.19 13:04:00 -
[234]
Originally by: chillz
Killing instas would kill hauling.
Would you ever attempt to haul anything valuable from 0.0 back to Empire in a ship that does 150m/s and takes a couple of minutes to get to warp speed?
Why in the 9 hells would you ever expect to succeed at such a stupid task? That is the whole bloody point. It should - point blank - not be possible to even attempt such utter stupidity.
Lets see. Industrial ships are: 1. Slow, 2. Unarmored, 3. Unarmed.
Clearly CCP intend for industrial pilots to enter and exit 0.0 space with loads of valuable cargo entirely unescorted with low risk.
not.
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chillz
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Posted - 2004.05.19 13:20:00 -
[235]
Edited by: chillz on 19/05/2004 13:24:26
I thought CCP wanted more people to go to 0.0 not less. If I couldn't get my stuff back to empire to sell / refine I wouldn't bother going in the first place.
We've made a few decent weekend sorties into 0.0 for some fun, high risk mining. Setting up the route cost a good number of evenings and shuttles. Yes we've lost ships to NPC's and pirates in our time, that's the risk you take. If we had no hope of getting anything back (It's not as if stations and refineries are dotted all over 0.0) those people sitting at gates would have an even more boring time of it.
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A gun and a packet of sandwiches.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - Hunter S Thompson
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Pychian Vanervi
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Posted - 2004.05.19 13:26:00 -
[236]
Originally by: chillz
Killing instas would kill hauling.
Would you ever attempt to haul anything valuable from 0.0 back to Empire in a ship that does 150m/s and takes a couple of minutes to get to warp speed?
Oh, sorry. You don't want to work for your gank.
You say there is not cost to instas. I've spent many evenings making them rather than mining. They cost you making money time so they aren't free.
The most sensible solution would be to make them so they couldn't be copied. Then if you're willing to put in the time making them you can use them.
This is exactly the point of the whole arguement about whether to keep or get rid of them. They are a feature of the game that allows ships to go something that they are clearly not designed to do.
As a indy pilot myself I am quite proud of my abilities when flying one. I have an Iteron V which I can fit both for speed and for blockade running, or for pure carrying power. With each of the above tasks I expect to lose out on something and gain another. Speed=less cargo
Shield=less speed
cargo=less shield
What insta BM's do is negate all of the above. You can have an indy with maxed cargo with no worry of speed or shield. So in escence you could just train Gallente lvl5 indy skill and nothing else and be able to haul well over 10k cargo with no worries of getting Nav skills at all.
Get rid of them there is no other way to do it to ensure ships have to use modules and skills to travel.
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It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
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Earthan
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Posted - 2004.05.19 13:27:00 -
[237]
Aeir it's propably no pirate camping but some bigger corps battle.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
chillz
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Posted - 2004.05.19 13:45:00 -
[238]
"As a indy pilot myself I am quite proud of my abilities when flying one" how many 50 jump trips do you make?
It takes me an hour or so using instas to go one way. I can't say I'd ever get in my Mammoth if I had to sit through 50 lots of approaching the gate at 162m/s.
-----------------------------------
A gun and a packet of sandwiches.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - Hunter S Thompson
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Fuse
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Posted - 2004.05.19 13:51:00 -
[239]
One thing about these guys they think they are the only ones playing this game. They glorify the pirate role in the universe. These nerf ideas are totally useless. They are whining because they are too lazy to use an interceptor to catch an Indy as it is decloaking to jump. What they want to do is have 3 or 4 ships waiting on the other side to podkill.
CCP IS ADDRESSING THE PROBLEM if YOU want to STOP someone you will have to throw down a mobile warp disruptor in the future (it is being tested coming soon(tm)).
They want the piracy reward WITHOUT the risk of loosing an interceptor or a mobile warp disruptor.
Trying to balance what is not broken delays the features in the game. If the devs try to please every Carebear or whining pirate the game development will lag and people will loose interest. It is NOT broken DON'T mess with it.
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Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2004.05.19 13:54:00 -
[240]
it is broken. an indy travels as fast as a frig. that is wrong.
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