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Wardecs on militia corps

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Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 11:39:00 - [1] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 11:40:08 Beware of that thread mentioned by Babel, while i applaud the creation of such a thread for discussion, Arlenna uses the initial post mostly to spread falsehoods and misinformation.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 11:58:00 - [2] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 12:04:49 Originally by: Steel Tigeress I see someone not getting re-elected if they hold new elections. Because they use game mechanics as intended? /sigh. Anyway, i just read the whole thread, the first 2 pages are partly nice discussion, Todes original post is even unbiased and objective besides her probably being frustrated, and then apparantly some idiot with his dozens of alts took over shouting exploit for no reason whatsover. For fear this wont help ill probably leave this thread be anyway, but please stay on topic, being the current and possible future ways to treat wardecs on militia corps, my brain already hurts. This is a critical issue, without having an easy solution visible. Dragging it down to the level of kindergarten fights is not helping anyone.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 13:28:00 - [3] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 13:35:59 Bear in mind that the jurisdiction over empire wars and all other hostilities in empire space lies in the hand of CONCORD. A lot of people argue with "logically" and "in the real word" and from an empire point of view. RP wise, and also logically, if CONCORD allows single capsuleer alliances/corps to declare war on single corps in a militia, thats its, full stop. There is nothing the empires can do about it. The militias are NOT concord registered alliances and thus stand outside the usual procedures concerning empire wars. One could say concerning concord sanctioned empire wars, the militias dont exist. Concord is the entity governing all such affairs in empire space, as can also be seen from recent events, and the empires are more or less helpless when its operative. The RP question should not be "What would lie in the interest of the empires", cause that would be open war, which was stopped by CONCORD. The RP question is what does CONCORD want? And CONCORD (as does CCP) does not seem to want, i would say, entire militias involved in empire wars with whole capsuleer alliances. While they provided a valve for the recent aggressions in the form of allowing the current form of factional warfare, they understandably want to keep it controlled and "small". The empires probably would of course want to react harsher, but they are not the ones in charge.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 13:52:00 - [4] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 13:54:54 I agree the real problem is the absence of a real governing body inside the militias. If there was one it would be easy. If one has a working way to reach such a decision, another way to implement it could be the following: 1) Corp A declares war on Corp B, which is member of Militia C 2) the war is active like normal between A and B, A pays fees and so on 3) at any time the militia can have a vote to declare war on any entity that has an active war with one of its members. The war would be consentual then 24 hours after the vote. To start a vote sufficient support (tricky point) is needed. 4) likewise a vote can be called to end the support of the war. If thats successful the war goes back to point 2 after 24 hours 4) if corp A retracts the war on Corp B, as the war is not consentual anymore and the militia cant pay fees, the war ends. Advantage would be that the militia is not stuck forever, and doesnt have to immediately decide on support. E.g. if some corp is declaring on one of its member corps, one can first wait and see if the war has any impact at all, and if it looks like Corp A wants to keep it up longterm, before reacting. Sufficient support for starting a vote would e.g. be a number of Directors from player corps, while the agressed corp always has to support the issue to reach a vote. Only one vote per war could be advisable to reduce the "clutter". So youd have to decide if you want to vote early, and maybe not gain enough support, or to endure the war a bit first, and convince other militia members in the meantime.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 13:56:00 - [5] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:04:40 Cause player corps are always player corps, no matter if they support a militia or not. They are, at the core, independant capsuleer entities, and as such entitled to wage war against each other, even in empire if sanctioned by concord. Removing that mechanism would, apart from removing one feature as old as eve, create other problems as was stated several times in this thread. E.g. what if i wanted to declare war on two corps, one member of the Amarrian, one member of the Minmatar militia, to remove their research poses from empire? What you essentially want is, to break basic EVE gameplay and mechanics in order to "fix" one issue of FW. Is that right?
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:09:00 - [6] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:10:47 Originally by: nVChicky But there are other corps that are not in FW that would still be able to be wardec'd, atm the only people who are getting exploited are those in FW. The only problem I see with stopping it is that corp's who dont wish to be wardec'd join FW - but then they still cannot enter opposing FW space and can be attacked by opposing Militias - was this not the idea of the expansion......... Oh, yes and those who dont wish to participate in FW feel left out, aww bless, why not just continue to wardec those who also aren't participating in FW and play your own game....... So what you are asking for, essentially, is for the server to be split/sharded, into one with people who do take part in FW and those who dont? Great idea
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:15:00 - [7] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:15:39 Yep, this is about FW gameplay, and not about breaking regular gameplay, what some seem to be so inclined to do. Think up solutions that dont break core gameplay and still manage to protect FW from being blobbed by mega-alliances, like e.g. drykor did, and youll have earned my respect.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:21:00 - [8] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:25:37 Originally by: Ecky Ptang ...Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? ... Yes, you would, but for the last time, you dont have a saying in the matter, CONCORD has your hands bound. With corps inside the same militia wardecing each other your solution is already in place btw, shooting them should inflict a standing loss, see the Guide. Why should a FW corp get more protection from wardecs than e.g. a mining corp of 5 people, all less than 2 weeks old? If at all they should require less, as they apparantly want to participate in PVP.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:30:00 - [9] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:35:04 Originally by: Ulstan Quote: If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own. Wait, what, this doesn't happen? It absolutely should. It was my understanding it already worked this way. People asking for their militia corps to be immune to war decs are off base, but any corp that does war dec them should defacto be 'at war' with that factions NPC navies. (and lose standing appropriately for each pod kill, etc) Great idea again So if i have a corp owning space in 0.0, i will enlist with one militia, and "war or not" anyone shooting me will lose standings. It would at least require some measure if the corp just joined for "protection" or if they actively fight for the empire. People being kicked out of the militia if they dont pull their weight or something.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:46:00 - [10] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:53:57 Originally by: Ulstan Read again. Only people actually at war with you would take the standings hit. If you're in 0.0, you're fair game no matter what, so no people would bother to declare war on you. I can't believe you're making such flimsy excuses. The exact wording was "-war or not." So read again. Plus read Jades post, she came up with a more empire-centric example of the problem. Most importantly, do militia members get standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias?* Can¦t find any mention of this in the devblogs or guide. If no, then why should anyone else attacking militia members get standing hits. * direct standing hits for aggression, not derived from your faction standing increasing by doing FW missions
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:57:00 - [11] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:57:44 Originally by: Jade Constantine I would support a system where by the militia kept a list of all incoming active wardecs against its corps and allowed ANY milita corp to join one of these wars completely FREE just by clicking a "help militia ally" button and waiting out the 24 hour timer. (with another 24 hour timer to withdraw the help of course). This would allow players in the Militia to aid player corps against attacks from player corps and would hopefully address the issue in a way that encourages pvp and consequence in Eve online. Now that sounds like a useful and relatively easy to implement solution. You would still have members of the militia NPC corp being left out from helping, but there the problem of the absence of a governing body to make decisions is hard to fix. So i still like the idea a lot
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:59:00 - [12] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 15:01:42 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Khyle ...Most importantly, do militia members get direct standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias? ... At the moment I do not believe they do. Which should instantly silence all people asking for non-militia corps fighting militia corps getting standing hits imho. Can we get a definite answer on this? nVChicky, Ulstan, ...?
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:16:00 - [13] Many thanks at nVChicky! Makes sense, sort of. If a newbie fights in a militia for a few weeks, he shouldnt have huge negative standings, probably for the rest of his time in eve. And if the empires "forgive you" fighting against "them" inside hostile militias, why should it be different for people fighting their militia without belonging to a hostile one. Admittedly the whole thing doesnt make so much sense RP wise, but from a game design perspective it does i guess.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:25:00 - [14] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 15:26:38 Originally by: nVChicky The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant. The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance. /signed, for the first part. The alliance part, i personally dont care honestly, but i guess some FW people probably wouldnt want Goonswarm and others invading their space.

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