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Todes
Caldari
First Caldari Regiment
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:12:00 -
[1]
Wardecs onilitia corps provide a very unstable element into the Faction Warfare experience.
Most of the payers in FW are inexpeencd players, with thiese wardecs they have no place that they can consider safe. even getiscouraged with Facton Warfare.
Th fct that tiese new players have nowhee t g to recoupe thier losses means that they leave FW There muste some way to del with thisprblem, such as a massive fee for deccing FW cops, or wardecingte whole militia, or even not allowing it
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:14:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Todes
they have no place that they can consider safe.
Oh no. |
Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:15:00 -
[3]
It is just one of the risks that are corps have if a FW player doesn't want to get attacked by non-militia forces then don't join a militia corp, just fight with the relevant factional militia force. |
Todes
Caldari
First Caldari Regiment
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Rhanna Khurin
It is just one of the risks that are corps have if a FW player doesn't want to get attacked by non-militia forces then don't join a militia corp, just fight with the relevant factional militia force.
The crp I am with is one that suprts it's players to kp the players in the militia and fo hiese new players to learn frome more exprenced players, rather tha trial and error |
Zancera
Eye Of The Storm.
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:20:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Zancera on 29/06/2008 11:21:51
I'd critizize your spelling, but your idea is worse. If people don't like the idea of being wardecced, they can stay in NPC corps. FW corps shouldn't be treated differently just because many of their players are inexperienced. |
Slade Hoo
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:21:00 -
[6]
That would be a great idea...i would join a Corp (that siged up for FW) and never leave my highsec...so im in a corp and immune to wardecs. awesome feature.
This is expoiting wardec mechanics.
Join the NPC FW-Corps and you are fine. |
Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:22:00 -
[7]
If a corp that had joined the militia was made immune to being wardecced (by non enemy militia player corps) then i imagine this could be abused. |
Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:23:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 11:25:42
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 11:24:19
Milta Wardecs need to be fixed.
If the Alliance is immune to milta wardecing them, then why not vice versa? Just now Alliances can interfere with FW Milita corps and Milita cannot wardec them back.
E.G Alliances interfering with Milita is nuts. Either let alliances join a faction or let them get sec loss for pirateing factions.
E.G 2 in a system of neutrals, milita gang can be attack by random Alliance members who have a wardec but rest of milita gang cannot help otherwise they get sec loss. This is silly. |
Xercies Ravere
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:26:00 -
[9]
Ok you were a bit hard to read but i think I got the general statement. Wardecs agains Player corps in Militia should go ahead, otherwise people could exploit a system where you are in the militia you are immune to war decs. So I think if they had that system every corp would go into militia to stop them selves being war deced. Anyway being war deced means there are more targets  |
Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Xercies Ravere
Ok you were a bit hard to read but i think I got the general statement. Wardecs agains Player corps in Militia should go ahead, otherwise people could exploit a system where you are in the militia you are immune to war decs. So I think if they had that system every corp would go into militia to stop them selves being war deced. Anyway being war deced means there are more targets
If you wardec a milita corp, then the whole Milita needs to be able to fight back.
E.G Playercorp is running a 20 man gang of milita. 3 of the 20 are under wardec. FC watches his gang get kileld in highsec and the rest of gang cannot help otherwise be concorded in high sec, or lose sec rating in low sec.
This is the problem. Alliances can freely pick people to wardec so they are 100% immune from rest milita gang thought the eve universe.
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Lucai
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:36:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 11:36:44
Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 11:36:32
While i do understand where your frustration comes from, this is how wardecs work. As soon as you join any player corporation, be it a mining consortium, an industrial corp, faction warfare corp or a mercenary group, you are open to war declarations from other player corps.
Thats EVE.
You currently have the very real option of joining an NPC corp to take part in factional warfare, as one unfortunately cant declare war on them.
Regarding the point that the npc FW corp is essentially structured like an alliance, and hence should provide the same protection from wardecs on single member corps, i would personally rejoice in it being so, as then the whole "alliance" should be targetable by other entities.
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Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO
If you wardec a milita corp, then the whole Milita needs to be able to fight back.
E.G Playercorp is running a 20 man gang of milita. 3 of the 20 are under wardec. FC watches his gang get kileld in highsec and the rest of gang cannot help otherwise be concorded in high sec, or lose sec rating in low sec.
This is the problem. Alliances can freely pick people to wardec so they are 100% immune from rest milita gang thought the eve universe.
I think that the idea of a alliance/corp that wardecs a militia corp should not give a security sec hit is good.
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Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:42:00 -
[13]
Quote:
If you wardec a milita corp, then the whole Milita needs to be able to fight back.
Does not sound fair to me.
Then it should be also possible that the non-militia corp is able to wardec the whole militia. |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:44:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Esmenet on 29/06/2008 11:45:55
Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO
Originally by: Xercies Ravere
Ok you were a bit hard to read but i think I got the general statement. Wardecs agains Player corps in Militia should go ahead, otherwise people could exploit a system where you are in the militia you are immune to war decs. So I think if they had that system every corp would go into militia to stop them selves being war deced. Anyway being war deced means there are more targets
If you wardec a milita corp, then the whole Milita needs to be able to fight back.
E.G Playercorp is running a 20 man gang of milita. 3 of the 20 are under wardec. FC watches his gang get kileld in highsec and the rest of gang cannot help otherwise be concorded in high sec, or lose sec rating in low sec.
This is the problem. Alliances can freely pick people to wardec so they are 100% immune from rest milita gang thought the eve universe.
It would be great if the militia follows the same rules as a normal alliance, but you will probably regret it when the militia gets a bunch of wardecs from alliances out to have some fun. |
northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:45:00 -
[15]
I don't think Corporation should join in the first place. If this going to be such a problem then remove the corporations and have NPC corp only to do FW. I dont understand why they have Corps in the militia anyhow. Other wise leave it as it is! |
Todes
Caldari
First Caldari Regiment
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:47:00 -
[16]
First thing first, I do appologize for the typos, As fo th FW.... as was said, it i roughly structured like an alliance, Wouldn't t b logical for an entire militia to respond to a war decloration upon one ofit's member corps?
Thats my personal opinion, the other recommedations were mearly 5% ideas just a glimmer of an idea.
Just a small recommendation..... Before you flame I recommend looking at the entre thing, the other idea proposed and comet on all, not just one
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Lucai
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:52:00 -
[17]
In a way i agree with you Todes. It would be nice if the militia would work like normal alliances. Just be aware that this is a double-edged blade.
Be careful with what you wish, for your wishes may become true.
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FlameGlow
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.29 12:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lucai
In a way i agree with you Todes. It would be nice if the militia would work like normal alliances. Just be aware that this is a double-edged blade.
Be careful with what you wish, for your wishes may become true.
Can be, as long as wardec on entire militia makes you unwelcome in it's empire as per current rules for militias. |
Xonkra
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.29 12:54:00 -
[19]
buy a nwk eyboard o rtry some le sons |
Lucai
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.29 13:05:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 13:07:36
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Lucai
In a way i agree with you Todes. It would be nice if the militia would work like normal alliances. Just be aware that this is a double-edged blade.
Be careful with what you wish, for your wishes may become true.
Can be, as long as wardec on entire militia makes you unwelcome in it's empire as per current rules for militias.
While this sounds like the most logical thing at first there are problems.
E.g. an industrial player corp that has nothing to do with FW could join up just to get the protection from the empire. Essentially they would be invulnerable as even if people declared on their militia they could never attack them.
Or pirate corps camping entry points from 0.0 to highsec could join FW just to get protection against wardecs. If local anti-pirate corps or alliances would declare on them to drive them off or keep the gate safe, these anti-pirate corps would be forced out of the highsec region by NPC navies and unable to use or defend the chokepoint camped by the pirates at all.
In short, giving everyone who joins a militia protection effectively full protection from all war declarations allows for a multitude of exploits and would make the hole system a farce (war declarations are to wage highsec war, but you cant do that if they never leave their navies jurisdiction, so essentially they are fully protected from wardecs).
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Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.06.29 13:07:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lucai
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Lucai
In a way i agree with you Todes. It would be nice if the militia would work like normal alliances. Just be aware that this is a double-edged blade.
Be careful with what you wish, for your wishes may become true.
Can be, as long as wardec on entire militia makes you unwelcome in it's empire as per current rules for militias.
While this sounds like the most logical thing at first there are problems.
E.g. an industrial player corp that has nothing to do with FW could join up just to get the protection from the empire. Essentially they would be invulnerable as even if people declared on their militia they could never attack them.
Or pirate corps camping entry points from 0.0 to highsec. If local anti-pirate corps or alliances would declare war on them to drive them off or keep the gate safe, these anti-pirate corps would be forced out of the highsec region by NPC navies and unable to use or defend the chokepoint camped by the pirates at all.
In short, giving everyone who joins a militia protection effective full protection from all war declarations allows for a multitude of exploits (war declarations are to wage highsec war, but you cant do that if they never leave their navies jurisdiction, so essentially they are fully protected from wardecs).
Milita corps can be ganked by enemy milita in high sec. Many haulers and a golem got ganked on gates by enemy milita.
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Lucai
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.29 13:10:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 13:16:13
You can maybe do quick suicide strikes.
But try camping a gate in hostile navy territory in an attempt to catch the 0.0/highsec chokepoint pirates, or try to camp in an enemy corp while being under full attack of a hostile navy.
There is no reason whatsoever that any player corp doing exactly nothing for FW and "their" empire they should get navy protection. And as they are player corps but the "alliance" is an NPC one you cant enforce them "pulling their weight" in any way. Joining FW for completely different goals than taking part in FW cant be prevented.
Thus whatever you try it will always be broken and open to exploits.
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Lucai
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.29 13:30:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 13:33:17
On second thought, i dont get the whole problem and agree with northwesten.
You can join the NPC FW corp and you currently dont have to worry at all about war declarations.
It wont stop you from organising yourselfes in dedicated chat channels or voice comms, sharing assets or whatever.
It may not be as convenient as having a player corp, but if you want all the advantages you also have to live with the drawbacks.
All this discussion of how it should be, there is no easy solution by changing the system. But by joining the NPC corp you get all benefits of all proposed solutions, so why dont you do that?
See you in space, Todes.
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Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.06.29 14:32:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 14:33:46
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 14:33:26
The fact you can join a NPC milita corp makes a mockery of the alliance wardec.
20man milita mixed gang. The alliance can attack the 2-3 wardecees and the rest of the milita can only watch helplessly.
Either fix it so enemy milita can fight without sec loss/concord or fix it.
Also people in the same milita can wardec each other which is the height of stupididy. I mean, the system needs to be fixed. A Caldari enemy can join the caldari milita and wardec caldari minita corps and caldari navy wont step in. There is no RP reasoning for allowing Gallente greifer corps to operate this way. It is only ok if the rest of the milita steps in. |
Rooker
Lysian Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.29 19:44:00 -
[25]
In theory, it sounds bad that a corp could have alliancelike (new word, I claim it!) protection and be basically immune to wardecs. In reality, it is a moot point. Corps are already immune to wardecs, since CCP refuses to prohibit people jumping into infinite numbers of alt corps for as long as necessary for the wardeccers to get bored of it. These same people could just as easily bail into the NPC militia corp anyway, so again it is a moot point.
I'll give the perfect example of why the current mechanics don't work very well. This happened yesterday.
Star Fraction has wardecced First Caldari Regiment. A battleship/tackler blob moved towards Old Man Star yesterday, including a few people from First Caldari, then sat in a Mexican standoff with a large Gallente battleship blob on the other side of a gate.
Star Fraction followed the fleet, then swooped in and popped a couple of First Caldari people in small ships, then zoomed away. They did this in perfect safety, because the rest of us had no "legal" right to open up on them. Every side of the militias seem to have adopted a NRDS policy, because criminal aggro is too big a pain in the ass. There are too many neutrals following us around waiting for somebody to turn red and we don't want to have to sit an entire fleet in a safespot for 15 minutes waiting out the timers.
They were also perfectly safe from pirates jumping in while they were aggressed, because no sane pirate is going to criminally aggress himself in front of an 80-man blob. Those who have done so in the past have been instaganked.
This is just ludicrous. I don't know what the best balance would be, but what we have right now just isn't working very well. |
Lucai
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.29 21:44:00 -
[26]
First off youre not the only one unhappy with the situation. Entities like us, CVA, and others are essentially kept out of FW by the current system. Our options are very limited, resulting in the situation we have right now.
Concerning us being in "perfect safety" to pick targets out of your fleets, we are talking about lowsec space here. Using "perfect safety" is a bit far fetched there.
If you want to counter terrosism, you cant always play by the rules. Enough ships get killed every day in lowsec by pirates, anti-pirates and lots of people taking down targets of opportunity, all under fire from gate guns.
It was your decision alone not to stop us, but to sit by idly. |
Apoctasy
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.06.29 21:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Todes
they have no place that they can consider safe.
Oh no.
What is 'safe' in Eve? Not getting podded each time you undock? I dunno, someone explain this concept to me... |
Shagrath Neptune
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.06.29 22:15:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Shagrath Neptune on 29/06/2008 22:17:13
Limiting FW to only the NPC corps will make FW a big failure. Do you have any idea how many corps have joined FW or how many have been created so that members of corps who belong to an alliance can have their members participate? At least half {probably more} of the FW pilots belong to a real corp. Those players will NOT join the NPC corp if CCP were to change it. {which there is zero chance of happening now anyway. We are three weeks in and they aren't going to all of a sudden tell those corps they are out.  }
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Lucai
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.29 22:22:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 22:24:28
If you are in a "real" corp, you know that at any time, anyone can declare war on you for no reasons at all.
Why should that fundamentally change when you get involved in FW?
Were more or less talking about new players here, who do not want to be targetable by wars and still participate in FW.
For them, my advice was to join/stay in the NPC corps.
Being in a player corp = being targetable by empire wars. Thats EVE, always has been, if you like it or not, and discussing this would be a completely different topic.
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Jocian Orem
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Posted - 2008.06.29 22:58:00 -
[30]
I dunno, would it be possible to code it so that you don't get flagged/take a sec hit for engaging someone who is aggressed on someone in your gang/fleet? Not just on the war dec alone, but after they had actually aggressed on them. |
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