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Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:05:00 - [181] Originally by: Pithecanthropus [ You have to listen to reasonable arguments from both sides, and as it loks now you already made your decision. That's a shame. Seeing no one in Eve has a chance to even argue the point when you can't even be open to other beliefs. I am very happy to listen to reasonable arguments. Ad hoc silly personal attacks and personalizing the issue as exampled by the poster above me however just get ignored. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:14:00 - [182] Originally by: Nitalya ... Stop being narrow minded Nitalya. Many people exclusively participate in empire wars pre FW. Not everything revolves around 0.0 warfare. If you can't accept that a roleplay corporation operates under roleplay principals you will never understand. If if you don't like it, war dec. It's a beautiful aspect of the single shard. I rather not sit in 0.0 ratting away, then get called up for a blob on POSes and all the other associations that people wrongfully consider eve endgame. I didn't know you work for CCP and are marketing factional warfare for them. Obviously your single statement is exactly all encompassing of FW is meant to be.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:19:00 - [183] Edited by: Ulstan on 02/07/2008 17:20:04 The issue is a very simple one: militia corps cannot enter enemy hi spec space without being attacked by faction navies. Therefore, to keep things fair, people who war dec militia corps should be unable to enter their hi sec space without being attacked by their faction navies. Any other arrangement breaks the parity and balance and leaves one side with a safe haven for which the other side has no equivalent Quote: However both of these complaints are the result of actions the FW corp chose - chosing to remain in the Militia under the FW corp, and choosing not to enlist your fellow militia corps in a counter-wardec. Kelsin, be reasonable here. I could just as well push for miltia corps being 100% immune to war decs by saying that you being unable to war dec them is a result of your choosing not to enlist in the militia. I have no sympathy with militia corps saying they should be unable to be war decced or complaining about lack of support - these are the exact same issues facing any other player corp not in an alliance. However, unlike other player corps, these player corps are part of the officially sanctioned military arm of their state - as such, they are at war with the NPC navies of enemy states. It is only fair that they be granted the NPC navy protection of their own state. Jade is attempting to have it both ways - he wants militia corps to have all the disadvantages of being in a militia, with none of the advantages. I have already shot down his little straw man of how militia corps aren't really part of the militia and thus don't deserve NPC protection. If this were true, they wouldn't be getting attacked by the enemy NPC navies, since they aren't really part of the militia. Jade continues for an imbalanced situation where his side has a significant advantage over the other. While this is not shocking or unexpected behavior, I think we can expect better from a member elected to the CSM. I am not pushing for my side to have a significant advantage - I want both sides to be on an equal playing field. Quote: The individual members of the FW associated corps do not need Caldari standings. Jade, this is completely false. If the individual members of an FW corp do not have Caldari standings, that corp, and all pilots in it, will be ejected from the militia. I've seen it happen repeatedly. It's even happened in the middle of ops to our scout. "Dude you are missing lots of WT's in here" "Oooooh hey my corp just got kicked from the militia because we didn't have high enough standings"
Nitalya Amarr Das Reich.	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:20:00 - [184] if ccp wanted alliance to take part in FW dont you think they would have bult them into the system. face facts SF your on a fishing expedition in hopes that ccp will see the flaw in there ways(from your POV) and make FW so you guys can do what you want. and i still didnt see any answers to my questions about hwy your awsome anarcho RP alliance isnt at war with all factions like you claim you want to be but only 4 corps in one faction?
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:29:00 - [185] Originally by: Nitalya if ccp wanted alliance to take part in FW dont you think they would have bult them into the system. face facts SF your on a fishing expedition in hopes that ccp will see the flaw in there ways(from your POV) and make FW so you guys can do what you want. and i still didnt see any answers to my questions about hwy your awsome anarcho RP alliance isnt at war with all factions like you claim you want to be but only 4 corps in one faction? We have set them all militias -10. We don't have the power to wardec militia, nor war dec every militia corp. Be patient we will get to you. Oh wait your not in factional warfare. As for CCP not wanting alliances to touch factional warfare: READ. How many times does it take to get through to your head? Not on militias, but corps yes. Originally by: CCP Dionysus Edited by: CCP Dionysus on 19/05/2008 18:55:13 Originally by: Elaron 1) Will it be possible for entities (that is, corporations and alliances) who are not part of the formal Factional Warfare mechanic to declare war on the Militia corporations themselves? 2) Will it be possible for entities (that is, corporations and alliances) who are not part of the formal Factional Warfare mechanic to declare war on player corporations that are members of the Militias? 3) Will it be possible for player corporations who are signed up for the factional Militias to issue war declarations on other player entities, signed up or not? 1) No. They are NPC corps, and like any NPC corps you cannot declare war. 2) Yes. They are still normal player corps. They are not technically joining an alliance, and dont gain the "protection" that being in an alliance gives you. You will have to pay normal wardec costs etc though. 3) Similarly to above - yes.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:39:00 - [186] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: However both of these complaints are the result of actions the FW corp chose - chosing to remain in the Militia under the FW corp, and choosing not to enlist your fellow militia corps in a counter-wardec. Kelsin, be reasonable here. I could just as well push for miltia corps being 100% immune to war decs by saying that you being unable to war dec them is a result of your choosing not to enlist in the militia. I don't think I'm being unreasonable. If it were the case that FW corps were immune to wardec, what you said would be a perfectly reasonable argument. My point is that FW corps DO have a recourse under the current system. They can participate in FW and be immune to wardecs by being in the NPC Militia Corp. What the OP is asking for is that they have those advantages AND be able to be a player corp. Quote: However, unlike other player corps, these player corps are part of the officially sanctioned military arm of their state - as such, they are at war with the NPC navies of enemy states. It is only fair that they be granted the NPC navy protection of their own state. ... I am not pushing for my side to have a significant advantage - I want both sides to be on an equal playing field. The behavior of the NPC Navies is a sticky point, but again you're looking at it from a skewed perspective. You, the Caldari Militia have the Caldari NPC Navy on your side to balance the Gallente NPC Navy on the side of the Gallente Militia. In a conflict between a Caldari Militia Player Corp and (for example) the Star Fraction - where is our NPC Navy? The Caldari Navy is an anti-Gallente tool, not a pro-Caldari tool. In conflict with non-Gallente/Minmatar, you're on your own. And yes it's unfortunate that if that conflict takes you into Gallente space, you are aggressed by the Gallente Navy, but then you made that choice - both to be in the Caldari Militia and to enter Gallente space. There's no fairer way to lay it out, frankly. On a side note, you won't find much traction with the "A CSM member should behave in such and such a way" argument. I'd drop it if I were you because it's just unbecoming and has no bearing on a discussion of game mechanics, and makes your arguments seem like they can't stand up on their own.
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:42:00 - [187] Originally by: nVChicky Edited by: nVChicky on 02/07/2008 17:40:13 We can't have everything and I would personally settle for this Just because a Corp is in FW means they are not immune to aspects of War Dec's therefore they should have the ability to aid from other FW Corps as the non-FW Corp can aid its attack with other non-FW Corp. This isn't the end of the problem BUT will make 'fairer' gameplay. As per my post it may not please everyone but this post is a solution that would please a majority and would make the game fairer: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=812583&page=1
Lord Frost Minmatar Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:55:00 - [188] Edited by: Lord Frost on 02/07/2008 17:55:58 Edited by: Lord Frost on 02/07/2008 17:55:13 Originally by: Jade Constantine I am very happy to listen to reasonable arguments. So you think it's not a reasonable argument that declaring war on a militia corp not only gives you a safe haven for the war, but also enables a broken mechanism that lets you enter Caldari high sec systems? However, letting your war targets unable to follow you in Gallente space? Do you think leaving a militia to fight your war is viable counter, when your roleplay tactics claim the war in the first place is due because they are claiming territory in Black Rise. Aren't there TWO factions claiming that space as well as independent corps and alliances? I'm sorry FW wasn't made for alliances, and I'm sorry you have to sink to these levels... but even I know its currently a broken system. It would be nice to hear from other CSM's in this thread, as your opinion is quite lacking a thought out constructive opinion of the Eve community.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 17:57:00 - [189] Edited by: Ulstan on 02/07/2008 18:04:04 Quote: I don't think I'm being unreasonable. If it were the case that FW corps were immune to wardec, what you said would be a perfectly reasonable argument. My point is that FW corps DO have a recourse under the current system. They can participate in FW and be immune to wardecs by being in the NPC Militia Corp. What the OP is asking for is that they have those advantages AND be able to be a player corp. I don't remember specifically what the OP asked for, but I think it was something I didn't agree with. I'm not saying the war dec mechanics should be changed, I'm saying the NPC navy issue needs to be balanced to be fair for both sides. Quote: The behavior of the NPC Navies is a sticky point, but again you're looking at it from a skewed perspective. You, the Caldari Militia have the Caldari NPC Navy on your side to balance the Gallente NPC Navy on the side of the Gallente Militia. In a conflict between a Caldari Militia Player Corp and (for example) the Star Fraction - where is our NPC Navy? Eugh, what? Your NPC navy is back in gallente hi sec space, just like the caldari militia NPC navy is in Caldari hi sec space. The difference is your NPC navy will shoot at the caldari militia but the caldari militia navy will not shoot at you. Ergo, gross imbalance :p Quote: The Caldari Navy is an anti-Gallente tool, not a pro-Caldari tool. The caldari Navy is used only for defending caldari hi sec space, not taking the war to the enemy space. It's very much a 'pro caldari' tool. Quote: On a side note, you won't find much traction with the "A CSM member should behave in such and such a way" argument. I'd drop it if I were you because it's just unbecoming and has no bearing on a discussion of game mechanics, and makes your arguments seem like they can't stand up on their own. I completely disagree. If a member of the CSM stoops to arguing for blatant imbalances that favor him, I think that is highly relevant to the playerbase. Jade's double standards are what is unbecoming here, not members of the community he was elected to serve calling him out on it. I understand that you are loyal to Jade and want to defend him no matter what, but think of how this will look to those members of the community not in SF. And it would only make my arguments seem they couldn't stand up on their own if one had a reading disorder. The fact that my arguments (and those of many others in this thread) do stand up on their own is why I can level such a charge against Jade in the first place.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:12:00 - [190] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: The behavior of the NPC Navies is a sticky point, but again you're looking at it from a skewed perspective. You, the Caldari Militia have the Caldari NPC Navy on your side to balance the Gallente NPC Navy on the side of the Gallente Militia. In a conflict between a Caldari Militia Player Corp and (for example) the Star Fraction - where is our NPC Navy? Eugh, what? Your NPC navy is back in gallente hi sec space, just like the caldari militia NPC navy is in Caldari hi sec space. The difference is your NPC navy will shoot at the caldari militia but the caldari militia navy will not shoot at you. Ergo, gross imbalance :p No, that's the Gallente Militia's Navy, not Star Fraction's. It would be extremely imbalancing for a Player Corp to be able to join the Caldari Militia in order to protect themselves against 3rd party aggression by having the NPC Navies fend off any wardecs. You'd have player corps signing up just for the free NPC protection, and not in order to fight their Faction enemies. Quote: The Caldari Navy is an anti-Gallente tool, not a pro-Caldari tool. The caldari Navy is used only for defending caldari hi sec space, not taking the war to the enemy space. It's very much a 'pro caldari' tool. Let me rephrase my point: The Militias' purpose is to enable the fighting of their enemy faction, not to enable the fighting of anyone the Militia members are in conflict with. The Militias aren't meant to be a haven for a Player Corp seeking to avoid attacks by 3rd party corps, and having the NPC Navies act as guard dogs for Player Corps falls outside the purpose of factional warfare. CCP won't ever set up a situation like you're asking for simply because people would join the Militias to enjoy the Faction Navy protection whilst pursuing non-Militia business.
Nitalya Amarr Das Reich.	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:16:00 - [191] just so you know i am part of the caldari milita... with my corp.. i get your point we just have to agree to disagree... FW was release with a major flaw. and its not like im some kind of alliance or RP hater. i just truly believe that player alliance of any form have no place in FW. and i do get that it sucks for the rp alliances out there that cant enjoy FW due to game mechanics. lets try and look at this from anotther point of view here.. lets say alliance A is at war with alliance B..... well alliance C found a way to wardec only ONE corp in allianceA.. do you tink the other corps in allianc A would think this is fair or an honorable act? and i know game mechanics wont allow that but thats where the major flaw with FW is ccp didnt want alliances wardecing militias so the basicly made it a NPC alliance that cant be wardec as a whole but corps in it can.
Vasta Valdreth	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:21:00 - [192] Edited by: Vasta Valdreth on 02/07/2008 18:22:32 I don't know why this has to be so difficult or hard to understand! All corps should be war dec-able!!! If the corp is part of a militia the militia should be able to assist the corp that is enlisted as their ally with no penalty! If you don't want to be auto at war for war dec on a player corp in a militia at least give the whole militia kill rights for war dec on one of their enlisted allies. War Dec a militia? I don't see the problem if you got the isk to pay for such a huge war fee since if I remember right the fee is based on pilot count. Treat the militias like an alliance; or a slightly modified version of such which would give just kill rights to the militia for the corp that war decs another in the militia.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:22:00 - [193] Quote: No, that's the Gallente Militia's Navy, not Star Fraction's Uh, no. The gallente militia have no more control over it than you do. The gallente NPC navy will attack the caldari militia you have war decced when they enter gallente hi sec space. The caldari NPC navy will not attack you when you enter caldari hi sec space. This is a clear and significant imbalance. Either (a) Make the gallente navy not attack caldari militia corps when they've been war decced by non FW militia or (b) Make the caldari navy attack non FW corps that have wardecced their militias. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I don't particularly care which method you're more in favor of, but those are the only two methods to remedy the imbalance. Quote: You'd have player corps signing up just for the free NPC protection, and not in order to fight their Faction enemies. Yes, people looking to avoid war are going to join a corporation that puts them instantly at permanent war with about 8,000 - 10,000 pilots and gets faction navies to shoot at them. If they even have the standings, that is. Anyway, as we've seen, the faction navies are not a gaurantee of safety in hi sec, so it would be rather foolish for industrialists, haulers, etc, to join the militia for the 'free' NPC protection because you'd just get ganked by fast moving small nimble gangs of enemy militia (as caldari have done in gallente hi sec spec repeatedly and gallente have done at least once in jita). It's not 'free' NPC protection at all, it's to compensate you for being at war with thousands of pilots FOREVER and not being able to enter vast swathes of hi sec.
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:25:00 - [194] You guys realize that trying to ague with Jade or ANY SF is just an excercise in frustration, right? She will take ANYTHING you say and put her spin on it as she has done for the past 5 years. She is a politician alright. And just one whole has ONLY been concerned about her and SF's point of views for those same number of years. She doesn't want things balanced as it would put her and her corp at a distinct disadvantage. IF she REALLY wanted balance, she would not be arguing the points over 7 pages. She is still butt hurt by not being allowed to enter her ALLINCE into FW and will pretty much argue anything that will allow here to clai playing FW without any of the consequences, such as having to LEAVE the alliance to sign up for it or face the factions NPC's navies just as the FW corps/factions have to. Its quite simple Jade...really it is. - You declare war on a faction CORP, that corp is part of that faction and hence you will have to face that factions NPCs, PERIOD! You WILL NOT have the luxury of wardeccing an entity that cannot roam to other NPC faction space without being shot and you get to sit in the war-decc'd corps home space without the exact same disadvantage of the friendly NPCs shooting you. That is PURE and simple imbalance. If you try to say it isn't, then you admit that you dont care about balance and only want your cake and eat it too. That is the GIST of what is being said here. If you can't get that, then why are you sitting on the CSM in the first place? If you can't support game-balancing issues for the whole of EVE, then you need to step down off the CSM as you FAIL to fullfill your obligations you gave your sworn word you would do.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:28:00 - [195] Originally by: Ulstan Either (a) Make the gallente navy not attack caldari militia corps when they've been war decced by non FW militia or (b) Make the caldari navy attack non FW corps that have wardecced their militias. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I don't particularly care which method you're more in favor of, but those are the only two methods to remedy the imbalance. Quote: Ummm... method (A) would just lead to abuse. You don't want 1 man corp deccing all of caldari militia to run into Gallente space freely. Method (B) is the ONLY viable option --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:28:00 - [196] Originally by: Nitalya the more i read the compleet garbage that comes from jade and the rest of SF mouths i understand what this stunt is all about... SF is all bent out of shape cause FW wasnt created for alliances with them in mind, it was created for the individual player and small corps to give them an idea of what alliances are like and give players access to fleet battles and the like. rather than go to war with other RP communitys that are still in tact SF decided to point out a flaw in the FW system allowing allinces to influence faction warfare with minimal risk to themself. and whats truly sad about his is the sandbox nature of eve will allow a few jacka$$es to ruin the game experience of many. simple fact SF is trying to bully ccp into changing FW to suit there agenda at the expence of other players game experience. and as a member of the CSM jade should be ashamed of himself for not takeing the proper actions to get this issue resolved, instead they take the same aproach a small child would. they claim to hate all empires but only agress a few small corps in one. SF can stand behind RP all they want but its simple they are cowards and there leadership has proven to me that they dont deserve my respect or the respect from anyone in the eve community. would like a good explination as to why caldari was chose over the other 3 factions and why they wont wardec a real alliance? and i really want to point out one more time CCP has give OVER HALF the regions in eve to alliance to do as they wish why is it so hard to understand that CCP would five something for the indidual player and small corps to do. you know for poeple that dont want to deal with egomaniacs like jade constintine or sir mole. I reeally think this post says it all. I hate to think that.. but from everything SF and Jade try to argue points directly to this thought.
Nitalya Amarr Das Reich.	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:37:00 - [197] Edited by: Nitalya on 02/07/2008 18:37:23 there is currently a post in the CSM assembly hall put to vote to have jade removed from CSM http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898 the leader of an alliance that acts in such a dishonorable manner has to right to sit on the CSM
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:44:00 - [198] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: On a side note, you won't find much traction with the "A CSM member should behave in such and such a way" argument. I'd drop it if I were you because it's just unbecoming and has no bearing on a discussion of game mechanics, and makes your arguments seem like they can't stand up on their own. I completely disagree. If a member of the CSM stoops to arguing for blatant imbalances that favor him, I think that is highly relevant to the playerbase. Jade's double standards are what is unbecoming here, not members of the community he was elected to serve calling him out on it. I understand that you are loyal to Jade and want to defend him no matter what, but think of how this will look to those members of the community not in SF. And it would only make my arguments seem they couldn't stand up on their own if one had a reading disorder. The fact that my arguments (and those of many others in this thread) do stand up on their own is why I can level such a charge against Jade in the first place. Ulstan, you have to recognize that what you see as a "gross imbalance" is not seen that way by many other people. Your arguments have flaws, and trying to augment them with personal attacks does them no favor. The element that must be recognized before you get into the question of balance is that of choice. In the example we're working with, Star Fraction didn't choose for the Gallente Navy to get involved. You just happen to be an enemy of them, by your own choices. I think that opting into Factional Warfare is done on the understanding that you're still a part of the Eve universe, and you accept the fact that you'll be at odds with the enemy Navies. If you really want to be protected from Wardecs then you have the option of joining the NPC Militia Corp. But if you want the advantages of being in a Player Corp you have to accept the dangers as well.
Vanguarder	Posted - 2008.07.02 18:52:00 - [199] Wait a minute, you mean JADE is a CSM??? what the hell is wrong with CCP?? Do they really feel it is ok to give official standing to someone who griefs others and exploits EVERYTHING possible, just to stroke her own ego? I blocked her from my chat channels about fifteen minutes after the first time she started demanding attention. I have only four people, who are not ISK spammers, on block. Funny that they are all so-called Star Faction. more like the hacking, exploiting grief squad .... and CCP allows their leader to carry a CSM tag? wow, I am so no impressed. OH and my dear SF friends, you can find me most days in Geztic system so feel free to come and grief / harrass me all you want, if you can find me.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 19:24:00 - [200] Edited by: Ulstan on 02/07/2008 19:25:09 Originally by: Kelsin I think that opting into Factional Warfare is done on the understanding that you're still a part of the Eve universe, and you accept the fact that you'll be at odds with the enemy Navies. If you really want to be protected from Wardecs then you have the option of joining the NPC Militia Corp. But if you want the advantages of being in a Player Corp you have to accept the dangers as well. I think that opting to war dec a factions militia is done on the understanding that you're still a part of the EVE universe, and you accept the fact that you'll be ad odds with the enemy Navies. If you really want to be protected by your own navies then you have the option of joining your factions militia. But if you want the advantages of war deccing an enemy factions militia, you have to accept the disadvantages as well. The issue is a very simple one: militia corps cannot enter enemy hi spec space without being attacked by faction navies. Therefore, to keep things fair, people who war dec militia corps should be unable to enter their hi sec space without being attacked by their faction navies. Any other arrangement breaks the parity and balance and leaves one side with a safe haven for which the other side has no equivalent. The simple fact remains that I am arguing for balance and parity, while SF and Jade are arguing for an imbalance that benefits them. Jade wants SF to get gallente navy NPC support while not facing caldari navy NPC opposition.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 19:28:00 - [201] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 02/07/2008 19:31:04 Originally by: Ulstan I completely disagree. If a member of the CSM stoops to arguing for blatant imbalances that favor him, I think that is highly relevant to the playerbase. Jade's double standards are what is unbecoming here, not members of the community he was elected to serve calling him out on it. I understand that you are loyal to Jade and want to defend him no matter what, but think of how this will look to those members of the community not in SF. There are no imbalances or double standards here. In my opinion nobody from your side of the argument in this thread has made a convincing case Ulstan. I've suggested if you are convinced of your logic you should make an assembly hall post advocating the changes you personally feel are neccessary. Those members of the community who have "called me out" on this thread appear to be taking the wardecs in question very personally and are arguing from hot-temper and complaint that they should be expected to fight a space war rather than camp the TAMA gate in NOUV with the protection of NPC warships. But this is no surprise - a vocal minority of eve players have argued against any kind of non-consensual pvp combat in this game since 2003. Needless to say I don't take the "nerf-non-consensual-pvp" portion of this community seriously. Quote: And it would only make my arguments seem they couldn't stand up on their own if one had a reading disorder. The fact that my arguments (and those of many others in this thread) do stand up on their own is why I can level such a charge against Jade in the first place. Saying that people who disagree with you "have a reading disorder" is insulting and crass. And its this kind of poorly disguised smack talk that categorizes virtually everything your side of this argument has said this afternoon. You cannot expect people to be persuaded by a point of view that is incapable of addressing fact and in-game logic and needs to fall back on simple bad-tempered insults in lieu of any substantive discussion. Originally by: Ulstan The simple fact remains that I am arguing for balance and parity, while SF and Jade are arguing for an imbalance that benefits them. Jade wants SF to get gallente navy NPC support while not facing caldari navy NPC opposition. Where the heck have I said that a corp wardeccing a FW corp should get npc navy support? Thats utterly ridiculous. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 19:39:00 - [202] Originally by: Ulstan The simple fact remains that I am arguing for balance and parity, while SF and Jade are arguing for an imbalance that benefits them. Jade wants SF to get gallente navy NPC support while not facing caldari navy NPC opposition. Well, that may explain our disagreement - no one has said anything like that in this thread. What makes you think I'm arguing for an imbalance? My argument is that things are more balanced the way they are now than the way they'd be if Faction Navies shot at non-Militia players.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 19:46:00 - [203] Quote: There are no imbalances or double standards here. Jade, if you think there's no imbalance between one side in a conflict having NPC navy support and the other not, I really don't know what to say. I suspect this is mere demagoguery. However, if that is really your position, you should be willing to face the caldari Navy without having your opponents face the gallente Navy. And thus you should certainly be willing to support my proposal where you face the caldari Navy while your opponents face the gallente Navy. If you don't, you are, by your own words, proven a hypocrite. Quote: Saying that people who disagree with you "have a reading disorder" is insulting and crass. Oh please. Spare me the faux outrage and self-righteous preening. Don't you think you've overused that particular brand of evasion? I am not saying people who disagree with me are incapable of comprehending the written word, I am saying a specific assertion of Kelsin's is false. My claim that you are exhibiting behavior unbecoming a CSM follows from my argument that you are defending a clear imbalance that benefits you personally. The claim neither strengthens nor detracts from the arguments, as it rests upon the arguments and follows from them. This is a well established technique in debates and discussions and people who get confused by it and think the conclusion from a set of premises has any bearing on the truthfulness of those premises, as I said, are simply not reading clearly. This point concerns the methods and stylistic devices employed in constructing logical arguments, and is thus wholly outside the question of whether people agree or disagree with my point about war declaration mechanics. You've bewailed the lack of substantive arguments, but have repeatedly failed to address why you are defending the imbalance of one side obtaining NPC naval support in a war dec while their foe does not.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 19:56:00 - [204] Originally by: Kelsin Originally by: Ulstan The simple fact remains that I am arguing for balance and parity, while SF and Jade are arguing for an imbalance that benefits them. Jade wants SF to get gallente navy NPC support while not facing caldari navy NPC opposition. Well, that may explain our disagreement - no one has said anything like that in this thread. Did you read Jade's posts? This is the current situation and Jade is defending it. Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Ulstan I disagree whole heartedly with the idea what militia corps should be immune to war decs (No place in EVE is totally safe) but I also agree entirely that people who do war dec militia corps must be considered 'at war' with that militia's faction (actions have consequences) and be attacked by the faction navies... SF should definitely enthusiastically be behind this idea... Jade, use your position on CSM and get on this one! I'm actually AGAINST it as the current mechanics stand....
Akara Tanashian Minmatar Conceptual Discontinuity	Posted - 2008.07.02 20:03:00 - [205] Anyone else think it's hilarious that the milita corps (I use the plural lightly, as I can only see Caldari whiners here), who've expressed an interest in PvP feel they need more protection from wardecs than a random highsec mining corp?
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 20:03:00 - [206] Real argument from war dec'd FW Corps: 'We have been war dec'd and cannot continue to fight with the militia due to extra wt's' 'We need to fight this! I want to be in a Player Corp and don't want to be 'popped' on sight by the war dec'ing Corp' 'We need some support we cannot do this on our own' Real argument from non-FW Corps: 'We want to join in on the war' 'We don't want to break our alliance, so lets war dec them to get a piece of the action' There is a similarity - Alliances. Those FW Corps that have not yet been war dec'd just wait till you are and you will see sense to my method of reasoning.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.07.02 20:16:00 - [207] Originally by: Akara Tanashian Anyone else think it's hilarious that the milita corps (I use the plural lightly, as I can only see Caldari whiners here), who've expressed an interest in PvP feel they need more protection from wardecs than a random highsec mining corp? No, it's NOT hilarious. It's not about protection, it's about the imbalance of safe zones. Wars are about fighting, but when you can dec a war and hide behind the safety of an opposing militias npc forces, then its a problem. Would it be a problem if you could only declare on ONE alliance corp? And not have that alliance able to help defend it? YES. Same case also applies here. Militias have no way to help defend their militia corps. Militias are not asking for that change, they are seeking a fairness is npc consequences. Simple... period. It's not a whine, its a valid discussion, so next time please offer more commonesense and class. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 20:21:00 - [208] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 02/07/2008 20:00:10 Originally by: Kelsin Originally by: Ulstan The simple fact remains that I am arguing for balance and parity, while SF and Jade are arguing for an imbalance that benefits them. Jade wants SF to get gallente navy NPC support while not facing caldari navy NPC opposition. Well, that may explain our disagreement - no one has said anything like that in this thread. Did you read Jade's posts? This is the current situation and Jade is defending it, as seen here: What I'm getting at is that you're charging that there are people arguing in favor of an imbalance. I'm correcting you by telling you we are arguing that no imbalance exists. You need to accept that the other side of the argument doesn't agree with your assessment of the current situation. My assertion stands that the end result of your scenario would be less balanced and more prone to exploitation than the current status quo. I don't think there is a better way to handle the NPC Navy involvement in FW than the way it is currently set up. The Wardec issue could use some tweaks, and I agree with the Assembly Hall suggestion nVChicky posted that would allow people to "opt-in" on wardecs to aid their allies. But I don't think your arguments regarding the Faction Navies are sound.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 20:42:00 - [209] Pithecanthropus, it's fine to want to engage in a discussion of game mechanics, but you derail the whole thing with that attitude. Rephrase it without the insults and we can talk.
Slave 775 Privateers	Posted - 2008.07.02 21:03:00 - [210] OH MY GOD !!! Some EVE players sunk to a new all time low. Its: "I want to PvP, but i don't want the enemy at my doorstep, they all have to be nice and shoot me at a far far away country." I'm nearly speechless. From the cover of the EVE Game Box: Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin.

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