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Cead Lothian State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:43:00 - [241] Originally by: Dihania You must understand that corporations part of FW are not special. The only special corporations ever are npc ones. Say.. corp A, player owned, is in militia. BUT they also mine and sell on market and haul and mission run in a certain area of high sec. Corp B is annoyed by this because it is "their turf". So corp B declares war on Corp A. I do not see any imbalance. See, but they are, their special because of the fact that they are not permitted to enter half of high sec without getting shot at, effectivly providing a safe haven that jade seems so against in his earlier posts. You cant be against having 'protected' areas for corps, and then have your very own areas and not see theirs some sort of imbalance.
Dihania Gallente Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:44:00 - [242] you my man are obtuse. I stop posting in this pig hole of a thread. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:47:00 - [243] Edited by: Lucai on 02/07/2008 23:53:32 Cead, the difference is, you say FW corps cant attack us in Gallente Space, if we were holed up there. BUT any corp in eve can wardec us and attack us whereever they want in empire. The fact that FW corps have to worry about the Navy in some regions is their choosing. So these corps can leave FW for a few days if necessary, hire mercenaries, whatever, and hit us wherever they want. Thats not exactly a "safe zone". If Navies protected all FW corps then NOBODY could hit them in their highsec without having the Navy after them. The majority of EVE can attack us whereever they want, and that does include you if you wanted to. Thats the reason there is no imbalance as claimed. You confuse a corp or two not being able to attack us everywhere, by their choosing, without worrying about the navy, with all of EVE not being able to attack a corp in a certain area without NPC involvement.
Ayrianna Nagaya	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:51:00 - [244] Originally by: Jade Constantine The bottom line is you want controlled arena pvp where you get to fight in lowsec and get protected in highsec but sorry Eve is not the game you are looking for. We have decided to mess with your muster in hisec and assassinate your command and control because you have formed a corporation associated with the Militia - if you want to be "safe" in hisec disband the corporation. If you are sick to see a CSM rep advocating this position then you are sick with the majority of players who elected me. You are in the minority here and need to appreciate that on this issue you are the one that needs to shape up and learn to play the game of eve as it is rather than trying to whine into existence the idealized game of eve that exists in your mind. The moment you formed a "command and control" corp in the Caldari Militia you became a target. You decided to raise your head from the barricades - don't act surprised about it when somebody decides to shoot you in the face. This is eve online - not my little pony online. Actions have consequence. Deal with that. No I am in the majority. Look at the thread of people wanting you gone in the Assembly Hall. I'm not even in Militia. It doesn't effect me at all. but I know whats going on. I talk to people. I observe whats going on. I do exploration in a Buzzard in Black rise. I see the fights passivly. I fly trade routes in LoneTrek and see SF camping the gates. I am upset that you are getting a DISTINCT advantage over other people. FW was designed to fight in low sec. Not be camped by a greifing alliance in high sec.
Marlana Eston	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:51:00 - [245] -SF- Jade, Luc. The point isn't that you've been driven to the opposing factions space or not. I think the point they are making is that you have the option of going to opposing faction space and they do not. I'm sure you're interested in finding a solution to make the situation more balanced, yes?
Cead Lothian State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:51:00 - [246] Originally by: Dihania you my man are obtuse. I stop posting in this pig hole of a thread. my dear fellow thats not the right attitude at all!. corps in militas are different because their constrained by the militia rules. They could as you rightly say disband and become part of the npc corp and they'd be immune. But who does this really benefit? the wardeccers? i cant imagine they'd be greatly pleased if theirs noone to fight. What im arguing is that their should be an equal cost to both the corps in the war dec. The militia members are constrained by the high sec areas they can enter. Its only reasonable to suggest that the aggressors should be under a similar disadvantage.
Dihania Gallente Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:57:00 - [247] I swallow my words.. I post again. Yes you have a disadvantage. But you chose it. Just like the pirate in the example I gave you. Want to move freely? than leave FW. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.02 23:57:00 - [248] Edited by: Lucai on 03/07/2008 00:04:37 Cead please read my post. Youre still confusing one or two corps with all of eve. FW corps would gain "protection" from all of eve, without all of eve being able to do something against it. We could gain "protection" from one or two corporations, as long as these choose to allow us to have it. They can remove it any day. If someone really had the problem of us hiding somewhere, why not form a new corp for some time, take in seasoned PVPers from the FW crowd and declare war on us? Or leave FW for a few days to give us a rough beating? You cant tell me that leaving FW for a few days is asking too much if someone wanted to hunt us down so desperately. Repeating myself, to all the whiners, play the game, bring it on. Were thirsting for more opposition.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:07:00 - [249] Originally by: Ayrianna Na*a No I am in the majority. I don't believe that word means what you think it means. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:08:00 - [250] militia is an alliance, the agro system should be same, wardec a corp in an alliance and the entire alliance is at war with you,
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:09:00 - [251] militia is an alliance, the agro system should be same, wardec a corp in an alliance and the entire alliance is at war with you, now for a smiley flag
Cead Lothian State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:10:00 - [252] Edited by: Cead Lothian on 03/07/2008 00:10:46 Edited by: Cead Lothian on 03/07/2008 00:10:15 Originally by: Lucai Edited by: Lucai on 02/07/2008 23:53:32 The fact that FW corps have to worry about the Navy in some regions is their choosing. see, by wardeccing a corp in the militia you yourself are making a choice to become hostile to that faction. Would it be safe to say that both parties are making the choice to become involved in fw mechanics? Im not unsympathetic to the problems rp alliances have had getting involved with fw, but i dont think allowing them a significant advantage is the way to go about solving it. Originally by: Lucai Thats the reason there is no imbalance as claimed. You confuse a corp or two not being able to attack us everywhere, by their choosing, without worrying about the navy, with all of EVE not being able to attack a corp in a certain area without NPC involvement. admittedly corps 'hiding' in a militia for the added navy protection could be an issue. What your saying though is that a imbalance should be kept because the alternative is worse? Im sure theirs some smart fellas somewhere that can work out a solution that doesnt gimp one side or the other. p.s. i actually posted the one before this before you reposted so bear with me!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:10:00 - [253] Originally by: masternerdguy militia is an alliance, the agro system should be same, wardec a corp in an alliance and the entire alliance is at war with you, We certainly wish that was the case CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:12:00 - [254] Edited by: Lucai on 03/07/2008 00:12:16 Originally by: masternerdguy militia is an alliance, the agro system should be same, wardec a corp in an alliance and the entire alliance is at war with you, I personally would love that. Saves a lot of isk on wardecs, and provides much more value per wardec CCPs official stance regarding FW corps is currently and sadly: Quote: They are still normal player corps. They are not technically joining an alliance, and dont gain the "protection" that being in an alliance gives you. And, as said multiple times, if it were like you wish for, prepare to get steamrolled by 0.0 alliances. Be careful what you wish for, cause it could become reality.
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:14:00 - [255] Originally by: Lucai Edited by: Lucai on 03/07/2008 00:12:16 Originally by: masternerdguy militia is an alliance, the agro system should be same, wardec a corp in an alliance and the entire alliance is at war with you, I personally would love that. Saves a lot of isk on wardecs, and provides much more value per wardec CCPs official stance regarding FW corps is currently and sadly: Quote: i wish it would be the way i wished! id love to take some shots at goonswarm They are still normal player corps. They are not technically joining an alliance, and dont gain the "protection" that being in an alliance gives you. And, as said multiple times, if it were like you wish for, prepare to get steamrolled by 0.0 alliances. Be careful what you wish for, cause it could become reality.
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:16:00 - [256] Edited by: Lucai on 03/07/2008 00:18:18 Cead, no worries about posting order, i think you still get your point across. The bottom line being the current system is okish, but very unsatisfying for all parties involved. Im very open to other solutions, but just giving all FW corps navy protection wont really solve the problem at hand, wont be more fun for anyone, but create some more problems. it cant really be exploited, as its essentially the same that applies to all non-alliance corps.
Cead Lothian State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:18:00 - [257] Edited by: Cead Lothian on 03/07/2008 00:18:57 Originally by: Lucai Edited by: Lucai on 03/07/2008 00:04:37 Cead please read my post. good god damn my friend your just too quick :(( Originally by: Lucai Youre still confusing one or two corps with all of eve. FW corps would gain "protection" from all of eve, without all of eve being able to do something against it. actually, (and ive just remembered this so it applies to my previous post as well!), its actually possible to join a militia and to war dec other corporations within it, which would mean its impossible to be immune. (i possibly might have that wrong but i remember some people mentioning it in other threads)
Marlana Eston	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:18:00 - [258] I love threads like this because there is a possibility here for improvement for the game. We have a CSM here that has the power to push certain issues... There has already been one proposal about FW: Letting those in npc militia join a wardec to help their brothers and sisters out at no cost. Good stuff. Why the reluctance to accept there is a disparity in this currect wardec system with regards to FW? A non-FW corp can declare and find solace in opposing space if they so choose. The targets of the dec, being involved in FW can't follow up and punish them without npc's on them. This alt is still sitting at a safe in KBP... I'd have thought -SF- would be jumping all over a comprimise. Obviously, you can't let the FW-corp roam unmolested in highsec opposing faction space. You could easily have a mechanic where if you dec a FW-corp you are "disrupting" war and get harassed by all faction police or some derivitave of that. Wouldn't -SF- have jumped at something like that for RP reasons?
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:20:00 - [259] Edited by: Lucai on 03/07/2008 00:21:19 Originally by: Cead Lothian Originally by: Lucai Edited by: Lucai on 03/07/2008 00:04:37 Cead please read my post. good god damn my friend your just too quick :(( Originally by: Lucai Youre still confusing one or two corps with all of eve. FW corps would gain "protection" from all of eve, without all of eve being able to do something against it. actually, (and ive just remembered this so it applies to my previous post as well!), but its actually possible to join a militia and to war dec other corporations within it, which would mean its impossible to be immune. (i possibly might have that wrong but i remember some people mentioning it in other threads) Sorry about the speed, but youre not much slower, causing me to reply that fast Yes, you can declare war on other corporations within your militia. But you will get hefty standings hits for shooting them, and quickly be kicked out. So thats no help, really. (and its kind of weird in the first place anyway)
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:29:00 - [260] Originally by: Marlana Eston I love threads like this because there is a possibility here for improvement for the game. We have a CSM here that has the power to push certain issues... There has already been one proposal about FW: Letting those in npc militia join a wardec to help their brothers and sisters out at no cost. Good stuff. Yep one was a good proposal and I was happy to support it. Quote: Why the reluctance to accept there is a disparity in this currect wardec system with regards to FW? A non-FW corp can declare and find solace in opposing space if they so choose. The targets of the dec, being involved in FW can't follow up and punish them without npc's on them. They are free to leave the militia and pursue if they wish. Its really not a problem. Especially not in the example raised in this op of course since we (being the anarchist corp in the OP) have pretty much moved all our kit to Caldari hisec anyways. + As the Dead Parrots have shown the presence of faction police doesn't stop a well prepped gang going wherever it chooses. On balance this alleged "disparity" is not something that persuades me. Quote: This alt is still sitting at a safe in KBP... I'd have thought -SF- would be jumping all over a comprimise. Well to my mind the allowing other corps in the militia that the wardecced corp is in counter declare for free is just that compromise. Quote: Obviously, you can't let the FW-corp roam unmolested in highsec opposing faction space. You could easily have a mechanic where if you dec a FW-corp you are "disrupting" war and get harassed by all faction police or some derivitave of that. Wouldn't -SF- have jumped at something like that for RP reasons? Problem is the mechanic goes further than RP and makes wardec avoidance a real possibility for corps simply joining FW and sitting in the appropriate hisec knowing they now have additional protection from faction police. I'm very opposed to the notion that wardecs between corps should become more difficult or that any form of partial wardec immunity is to granted to player entities. The answer is letting more players get involved in the war. We reached this compromise pages ago and it ended in a thread on the assembly hall. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:31:00 - [261] Originally by: Marlana Eston I love threads like this because there is a possibility here for improvement for the game. We have a CSM here that has the power to push certain issues... There has already been one proposal about FW: Letting those in npc militia join a wardec to help their brothers and sisters out at no cost. Good stuff. Why the reluctance to accept there is a disparity in this currect wardec system with regards to FW? A non-FW corp can declare and find solace in opposing space if they so choose. The targets of the dec, being involved in FW can't follow up and punish them without npc's on them. This alt is still sitting at a safe in KBP... I'd have thought -SF- would be jumping all over a comprimise. Obviously, you can't let the FW-corp roam unmolested in highsec opposing faction space. You could easily have a mechanic where if you dec a FW-corp you are "disrupting" war and get harassed by all faction police or some derivitave of that. Wouldn't -SF- have jumped at something like that for RP reasons? Me personally, i dont like FW corps to get any kind help with wardecs by NPCs. Nobody else does, so why should they. I would rather have small starter mining or industrial corps get some kind of protection before people actively willing to PVP getting it. Read e.g. threads like this one and we can talk again. So id prefer a solution where involvement of NPCs in wardecs is not necessary. Whatever that solution may be, the whole militia acting as one alliance, FW corps being able to join into wars for free, and so on, im perfectly fine with that.
Marlana Eston	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:36:00 - [262] Edited by: Marlana Eston on 03/07/2008 00:36:36 Thanks for the answer Jade, Luc. I wasn't wanting to present any solution. I understand how complicated this is. I just put that out there to help demonstrate my point that there is an unbalance as far as npc intrusion. I see a problem, but no easy fix.
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.03 00:42:00 - [263] Edited by: Lucai on 03/07/2008 00:43:56 Yep, i agree, there is a small imbalance. But so far i havent heard of anyone actively "abusing" it, and there are imho usable workarounds. The problem at hand, the rest of the militia being rather helpless if they dont want to pay high fees to wardec the aggressor on a per corp basis, is a vital one though, in my opinion. While this is a game mechanic working as intended by CCP its rather unsatisfying, or even frustrating for the people involved.
Bertie Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.07.03 01:28:00 - [264] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Skyy Originally by: Jade Constantine We're in Caldari Space. And we're at exactly the same risk we place you at. Wardec means you can shoot back. Stop crying "exploit" and start fighting back. Honestly, at the moment you are just embarrassing yourselves. Roll-eyes smiley is all very well but perhaps you'd like to answer the point? Your hypocrisy really knows no bounds. You have spent the last two pages of this thread choosing to ignore valid comments against your position on this matter, instead electing to only respond to less well-articulated arguments. The fact stands that despite your claim of this being an RP element, your actions are clearly and simply using slightly imbalanced game mechanics to provide you with a massive advantage. Only you have the capability to pick apart fleets - with Concord protection in hi-sec. Only you can sneak around looking for blob fights, and get some easy kills while your wardec'ees are otherwise engaged. Only you can run back to Gall or Minnie space whenever you choose as a safe zone. I suggest there is a reason you are only at war with Caldari corps right now - and that is that picking on one faction at a time allows you maximum advantage in your current strategy. That strategy being to blatantly abuse the *****s in the framework of FW for your own gain. Plain and simple. You sneer at the choices of those who are leaving their Militia corps to avoid your griefing. Yet if I were a weak, unimaginative player looking for cheap PVP thrills comfortable in the knowledge that the advantage is firmly on my side guess what I would do? Yup I'd look to sign up to SF. You are preying on the inexperienced, and only doing so knowing that the odds are firmly stacked in your favour. Bravo! I am suitably impressed. [/IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/Denrace/bertieorange.gif[/IMG]
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.03 01:52:00 - [265] Yeah, thats like totally why we argue it should be changed. Because we just want to prey at a few helpless caldari FW command corps, instead of having a target rich environment. Or honestly what we want is declare on a FW corp and then hide somewhere, snickering all the time about our genius. Hello?
Ayrianna Nagaya	Posted - 2008.07.03 01:58:00 - [266] Originally by: Lucai Yeah, thats like totally why we argue it should be changed. Because we just want to prey at a few helpless caldari FW command corps, instead of having a target rich environment. Or honestly what we want is declare on a FW corp and then hide somewhere, snickering all the time about our genius. Hello? You guys are so totally full of bull crap. If you were able to take on the ENTIRE Caldari Militia at once you would get your faced stomped in. You are a weak alliance that can't fight against any real alliances in 0.0 so you conduct empire wars on the weak targets that you can gank. SF are a bunch of RP gankers and always will be.
Steel Tigeress Gallente Steel-Wolfs	Posted - 2008.07.03 03:08:00 - [267] Originally by: Lucai BUT any corp in eve can wardec us and attack us whereever they want in empire. The fact that FW corps have to worry about the Navy in some regions is their choosing. So these corps can leave FW for a few days if necessary, hire mercenaries, whatever, and hit us wherever they want. Thats not exactly a "safe zone". If you choose to attack a FW corp, that is YOUR choosing, and you should pay the price of being at war with their NPCs. This reminds me sooooo much of the old Privateer debates right befor they got nurfed to he** and back... they screamed "We arnt abusing anything!" All the way up untill the bitter end. I would have just hopped that somone elected to be a CSM would have the balls to be the bigger man and realize they are guilty of exactly what they are accusing others of...
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 03:44:00 - [268] Originally by: Bertie Your hypocrisy really knows no bounds. You have spent the last two pages of this thread choosing to ignore valid comments against your position on this matter, instead electing to only respond to less well-articulated arguments. There really haven't been valid counter-arguments. All anyone is hearing from the Caldari Militia members on this issue is complaining that their corps can be wardecced in hisec. Its that simple. You are complaining about a mechanic that has been with Eve since the beginning of the game in 2003. Now it appears you want protection from wardecs while in a player corp and it simply doesn't fly. You have complete freedom to leave the militia if you choose and fly wherever you wish. You have complete freedom to remain in the militia with your corp and fight back. Nobody is tying your hands and preventing you from playing the game except your own lack of fighting spirit. Come on man, you joined Faction Warfare! There is a clue in the name. You should be prepared to fight. Quote: The fact stands that despite your claim of this being an RP element, your actions are clearly and simply using slightly imbalanced game mechanics to provide you with a massive advantage. Only you have the capability to pick apart fleets - with Concord protection in hi-sec. Only you can sneak around looking for blob fights, and get some easy kills while your wardec'ees are otherwise engaged. Only you can run back to Gall or Minnie space whenever you choose as a safe zone. We are running nowhere and currently stand largely un-opposed in Nourvukaiken system where we have slaughtered some of your brothers at arms and are challenging you to do your worst. This is time for you to stand proud and represent the Caldari Militia and show you aren't cowardly dogs. Organize, hire fighters, get your allies to counter wardec. Do something, anything other than bring these continual pathetic cringing whines to the forums. This has gone beyond discussion of game-mechanics and into the realm of throwing your toys from the pram. Play the game and stop weeping about the unfairness of the universe. Eve is not My Little Pony online. Here let me make it easy for you. I'm laughing at the Caldari Militia. You are a joke. Tibus Heth is a joke. Your entire nation is a joke. If you can't handle a war get out of your spaceship and go take up flower-arranging. Quote: ... Yup I'd look to sign up to SF. Sorry we only accept passionate warrior-poets and daring freedom fighters. We don't hire beaten dogs. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 04:08:00 - [269] Edited by: Ulstan on 03/07/2008 04:13:50 Quote: All anyone is hearing from the Caldari Militia members on this issue is complaining that their corps can be wardecced in hisec. Funny, because that's not what I've been arguing at all. I'm pointing out a clear imbalance in that one side has faction NPC support and the other doesn't. And all we're hearing from Jade is that an imbalance that favors him should continue to exist. Jade and SF are arguing that they should continue to receive faction navy support while their foes do not. I don't find that an admirable stance, either from a balance viewpoint, or from a role play viewpoint. As avowed anarchists, receiving NPC naval support should be anathema to SF. But then, they've never done a particularly good job of following through with their role play, instead preferring to shelter under the wings of the very organizations they pretend to disdain and spurn. An actual corp of anarchists would relish the chance to be at war with all four factions, branded as notorious outlaws and criminals from one end of the galaxy to the other, relentlessly hounded by the foul minions of the law in all but the most desolate trackless wastes of space. They would not be sheltering behind the ranks of the gallente navy and squalling with terror at the thought of losing that shield. Tsk! For shame! I had no idea the caldari navy had struck such terror into the quaking hearts of SF - they lengths to which they will go to insist they should not and cannot face these terrors of their nightmares is spectacle to behold. It will no doubt hearten the hearts of the Caldari Navy to hear they are held in such dread esteem by SF. Quote: You have complete freedom to leave the militia if you choose and fly wherever you wish Interesting. You would then be in favor of a policy that the only way to fight militias is to join the opposing militia? This is the only logical position if one wishes to remain consistent. After all, you do have complete freedom to leave your alliance and join up for whichever militia you wish :p
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 04:12:00 - [270] Originally by: Ulstan An actual corp of anarchists would relish the chance to be at war with all four factions, branded as notorious outlaws and criminals from one end of the galaxy to the other, relentlessly hounded by the foul minions of the law in all but the most desolate trackless wastes of space. One could counter than an actual Caldari Faction Militia member wouldn't be weeping openly on the forums rather than defending his nation in space. Two can play the "your roleplay is wrong" card Ulstan. Ultimately this is a silly thread and its a silly issue. Its only fit for RP posturing at this point. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!

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