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Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.03 22:11:00 - [61] and its things like that that make me want to commit mass murder. all the trappings of a fascist state. Next it'll be that you're not a patriot of the fatherlan-ahem motherland if you dont wear an armband of the Flag...
Ademaro Imre Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.03 22:16:00 - [62] Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 03/07/2008 22:22:26 Originally by: Tarminic So can a tradition be a true expression of patriotism? If it's something you're expected to do then how patriotic is it compared to expressing your patriotism outside of a scripted event? My point is that I think saying the Pledge of Allegiance is part of a tradition, and traditions are no more than sets of practices passed down over time. If you're expected to do something, is doing so truly an act of patriotism of an act of conforming with a tradition? Personally, I believe the latter. Yes, it is patriotism. No one expects anyone to create their own verse for a national anthem for example. So, that tradition is certainly passed down. Many in the US would like America the Beautiful to be the national anthem, but its not and they can still be patriots. A law abiding citizen is still a law abiding citizen even if they do not like or agreee with any of the laws. During certain moments in history - patriots have sacrificed for their country. The wouldn't want to do it - but they still did. Showing respect for your flag, and your country is a patriotic act. No one is forced to do it, and everyone can choose not to do it. If someone feels pressured to do it because they lack the courage to let others know they have no respect for the flag, then that is their personal decision to do whatever they want to. The aim of politics is to keep the populace alarmed and clamorous to be saved by menacing it with imaginary hobgoblins. The urge to save humanity is a false front for the urge to rule it.
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.07.03 22:34:00 - [63] They know Obama is in with a very good chance, so they're starting to fling whatever mud they can. They already started it off with a "terrorist fist jab" on Fox. I mean, wake up. Not just the USA, the UK as well and I'm sure others. The Nartzis would be proud. "They didn't salute the flag properly so we rounded them up and put them in a camp. It's for the good of the country." I have no time for our (UK) government, and it's precisely because I do love my country that I want to see them out and someone else Less Bad (tm) in their place to run things.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.07.03 22:39:00 - [64] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Obama is stunningly good in his speeches. They do indeed have to go back to JFK for a politician who was as eloquent and thoughtful in his speeches. Obama's speech on race was just jaw dropping good. Consider this is a politician giving a speech on racism in America (one of the few third rails in politics...they just - do - not - go there). Done during a bitter campaign. Done when he was being held to account for things the minister of his church had said. Instead of throwing his minister under the bus in traditional political fashion and muttering empty platitudes he explained the issue then proceeded to have a frank and thoughtful and eloquent discourse on racism in America. His speeches inspired Will.I.Am of the Black Eyed Peas to take portions of Obama's inspirational concession speech from New Hampshire and turn it into a music video. He did another video here (as an aside anyone know who the sexy as hell woman is speaking in Spanish at 0:45...maybe it's the accent...I dunno). BUT! If you want a real eye opener watch McCain's speech on the same night that Obama clinched the Democratic nomination. Contrast that to Obama's victory speech also done that same night. When you are all done with that come back and let's talk. Sorry, I cannot finish watching that McCain video at this moment. I have to take him in small doses, due to him being one smug individual. Other then that in the first 15 minutes of the video he had said absolutely nothing I have not heard him say since the beggining of the presidential campaigns. Slade
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.07.03 22:54:00 - [65] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 03/07/2008 22:55:27 Originally by: Slade Trillgon Sorry, I cannot finish watching that McCain video at this moment. I have to take him in small doses, due to him being one smug individual. Other then that in the first 15 minutes of the video he had said absolutely nothing I have not heard him say since the beggining of the presidential campaigns. Slade I hear you. I recall one pundit opining that he looked like old cottage cheese in lime jello (with that green background). Mostly watching it is worthwhile for the juxtaposition it provides to Obama's speech. The differences are stark and jump out at you right away (e.g. all of McCain's few dozen supporters giving weak applause at appropriate times to Obama's thousands drowning him out). P.S. Amazed you actually watched it. Yet more proof EVE has some of the best people around. Doubt many WoW players would be caught dead watching a political speech. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.07.03 23:04:00 - [66] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I hear you. I recall one pundit opining that he looked like old cottage cheese in lime jello (with that green background). Mostly watching it is worthwhile for the juxtaposition it provides to Obama's speech. The differences are stark and jump out at you right away (e.g. all of McCain's few dozen supporters giving weak applause at appropriate times to Obama's thousands drowning him out). P.S. Amazed you actually watched it. Yet more proof EVE has some of the best people around. Doubt many WoW players would be caught dead watching a political speech. Yes, I wathced it I am well known in my neck of the woods for torturing myself on occasions . Plus I am stuck at work with nothing to do at this point. Only 50 more minutes. But it was good to see Obamas speech on race again. I am still not sold on him though. We need some more stinking parties. A nation of 300 million people and we still have only two viable parties. That is just a little backwards. Slade
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.07.03 23:16:00 - [67] Originally by: Ademaro Imre No one is forced to do it, and everyone can choose not to do it. If someone feels pressured to do it because they lack the courage to let others know they have no respect for the flag, then that is their personal decision to do whatever they want to. Fair enough. I disagree that it's a binary action, i.e. Putting hand on your heart = patriotic and not putting your hand on your heard = not patriotic. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.07.03 23:43:00 - [68] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 03/07/2008 23:43:58 Originally by: Slade Trillgon We need some more stinking parties. A nation of 300 million people and we still have only two viable parties. That is just a little backwards. Slade Maybe. I kind of agree and have thought the same but the calculation is not necessarily as simple as it seems on the face of it. Sometimes you can get a rule by minority (as in fewer people). Say conservatives have 45%, liberals have 45% and libertarians have 10%. Libertarians in the middle of those two becomes the swing vote and effectively dictate what happens. The other two parties have to suck up to them and they get power out of all proportion to how many people they actually represent. IIRC Israel once had a government that operated under this mechanic and it was screwy (admittedly that was a long time ago and I have no idea how it is today...might even be misremembering it was Israel so don't hold me to it). Not saying there shouldn't be more parties. I agree and often am sick of my only two choices and wish for another. Just have to be careful what you wish for. You just might get it. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.07.03 23:48:00 - [69] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 03/07/2008 23:43:58 Originally by: Slade Trillgon We need some more stinking parties. A nation of 300 million people and we still have only two viable parties. That is just a little backwards. Slade Maybe. I kind of agree and have thought the same but the calculation is not necessarily as simple as it seems on the face of it. Sometimes you can get a rule by minority (as in fewer people). Say conservatives have 45%, liberals have 45% and libertarians have 10%. Libertarians in the middle of those two becomes the swing vote and effectively dictate what happens. The other two parties have to suck up to them and they get power out of all proportion to how many people they actually represent. IIRC Israel once had a government that operated under this mechanic and it was screwy (admittedly that was a long time ago and I have no idea how it is today...might even be misremembering it was Israel so don't hold me to it). Not saying there shouldn't be more parties. I agree and often am sick of my only two choices and wish for another. Just have to be careful what you wish for. You just might get it. True to all that. After saying that I am off for now. Slade
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.07.03 23:55:00 - [70] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 03/07/2008 23:55:20 Originally by: Ademaro Imre No one is forced to do it, and everyone can choose not to do it. If someone feels pressured to do it because they lack the courage to let others know they have no respect for the flag, then that is their personal decision to do whatever they want to. It is not always about disrespect to the flag. People can disagree with their government and not salute the flag in protest. Or burn it or whatever. Some others have said it much better than I can so: - No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots. ~Barbara Ehrenreich - Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. ~Hermann Goering - The heights of popularity and patriotism are still the beaten road to power and tyranny; flattery to treachery; standing armies to arbitrary government; and the glory of God to the temporal interest of the clergy. ~David Hume - We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it. ~Edward R. Murrow - "My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober." ~G. K. Chesterton - The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is nanve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair. ~H. L. Mencken - Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive. ~Henry Steele Commager I got more. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Ruhige Schmerz E.M.P. Industries Malum Exuro	Posted - 2008.07.04 00:12:00 - [71] Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 04/07/2008 00:39:53 I have more than enough reasons to detest him. Not putting his hand on his heart, not wearing a pin, or having an unfortunate middle name aren't even on the radar.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.07.04 00:32:00 - [72] Research have shown the m=ron swing vote becoming increasingly important. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Ren Surkova Down In Flames	Posted - 2008.07.04 00:43:00 - [73] Edited by: Ren Surkova on 04/07/2008 00:46:06 if anything obama isn't black enough never mind not patriotic enough he needs to be blacker
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.07.04 00:58:00 - [74] Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 04/07/2008 00:39:53 I have more than enough reasons to detest him. Not putting his hand on his heart, not wearing a pin, or having an unfortunate middle name aren't even on the radar. It's Not The Economy Stupid (Paid for by smart people who want a smart president) -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Ruhige Schmerz E.M.P. Industries Malum Exuro	Posted - 2008.07.04 01:38:00 - [75] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 04/07/2008 00:39:53 I have more than enough reasons to detest him. Not putting his hand on his heart, not wearing a pin, or having an unfortunate middle name aren't even on the radar. It's Not The Economy Stupid (Paid for by smart people who want a smart president) Thanks for illustrating my point!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.07.04 02:56:00 - [76] Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 04/07/2008 00:39:53 I have more than enough reasons to detest him. Not putting his hand on his heart, not wearing a pin, or having an unfortunate middle name aren't even on the radar. It's Not The Economy Stupid (Paid for by smart people who want a smart president) Thanks for illustrating my point! You must own an oil company or work for Halliburton. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Royaldo Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.04 03:52:00 - [77] actually first time ive seen mccain do a speech. -first impression: dear god hes old. 10 sec pass -second impression: wow hes still alive!
Ruhige Schmerz E.M.P. Industries Malum Exuro	Posted - 2008.07.04 05:24:00 - [78] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 04/07/2008 00:39:53 I have more than enough reasons to detest him. Not putting his hand on his heart, not wearing a pin, or having an unfortunate middle name aren't even on the radar. It's Not The Economy Stupid (Paid for by smart people who want a smart president) Thanks for illustrating my point! You must own an oil company or work for Halliburton. You assume that because I detest Obama that I endorse McCain (or Bush)? How very narrowminded of you.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.07.04 05:28:00 - [79] Hooray! Obama FTW! Oh, go here You're not afraid of the dark, are you?
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.07.04 05:47:00 - [80] Originally by: Victor Valka Doing neither of the above really makes you a patriot. Any tool can put up a show. That is true, but deliberately not doing either is saying something and I don't think it's saying he's patriotic.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2008.07.04 18:00:00 - [81] First off ... it's more than not putting his hand over his heart. However, putting your hand over your heart is expected. If his father taught him he didn't have to do it - then his father taught him wrong. And this attitude is the problem. You don't stand up, put your hand over your heart and sing the national anthem because you HAVE TO. You Stand Up. You put your Hand Over Your Heart and you Sing The National Anthem - BECAUSE YOU WANT TO. If you don't WANT to do that - then that says something. Typically it says: "I'm to good to do what everyone else does. I'm an individual and I don't want anyone telling me what to do. Just because everyone else is doing it - is reason enough for me NOT to do it. Just because someone is telling me I have to do it - I'm not gonna do it. I'm going to do what I want to do and to hell with everyone else." Now ... for the average person whom we already know doesn't give a damn about anything but getting laid, stuffing their face and being cool - who cares what they think. But for a person who's running for President of the United States? It shows that he DOESN'T get it. Anyone can SAY they're a patriot. What counts is what you DO. One of the things you DO - is to join the military. Especially if you're going to be Commander in Fraking Chief of the Fraking Military. One thing you DON'T do - is talk about Quitting a war your country is ALREADY IN. If you want to oppose going to war before it starts - that's fine. But once your nation is at war - you should support the war until you win. Why? Because the only thing worse than winning a war - is losing one. And how do you win a war? You win by making the other guy quit. Clausewitz said that in 1832. If you start talking about quiting - you are helping the other side. You are giving them hope that they will outlast you. Japan and Germany both declared war on the US in 1941 because they thought we were to soft and weak. They thought we'd quit. S a d d a m invaded Kuwait because he didn't think the world would do anything about it. Argentina invaded the Falklands because their leaders didn't think anyone would do anything about it. The Taliban let Osama into their country and supported him because they didn't think anyone would do anything about it. North Korea invaded South Korea because they didn't think anyone would do anything about it. See a trend there? You need some determination to deal with that. But the world is just chock full of people who don't want to do something that is hard - so they find some way to rationalize their way around it. Look at all the horse manure about Bush using the presence of WMD's in Iraq as an EXCUSE to do what should have been done 10 year before. The problem WASN'T that he had to come up with an excuse to go in and get rid of S A D D A M - it was that there was any question about doing that. sigh Hilary had some sense about her. She at least voted for the war in the first place. Barack didn't even do that. The man is brilliant. So was Hilary. So was Bill. No question about that. And yet - Ronald Reagan who was no mental giant (and whom I voted against) was a much better president. The problem with Brilliant People - and I have known a lot of them - is that they aren't as smart as they think they are. No one can know everything - but the brilliant person won't take advice from people who aren't as smart as he is - but who know more about the thing they're advising him on than he does. Lastly, what you want - is a moderate. You want a Liberal Republican or a Conservative Democrat. You want someone in the middle. Neither Barack nor Hilary was in the middle. McCain is. Proof of that is how much he is attacked by his own party. Barack is probably going to win though because he is new and shiny and after 8 years people are tired of the Republican's crap, the same way they were tired enough after 8 years of Bill & Hilary to put Bush in office.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.04 18:02:00 - [82] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 03/07/2008 23:43:58 Originally by: Slade Trillgon We need some more stinking parties. A nation of 300 million people and we still have only two viable parties. That is just a little backwards. Slade Maybe. I kind of agree and have thought the same but the calculation is not necessarily as simple as it seems on the face of it. Sometimes you can get a rule by minority (as in fewer people). Say conservatives have 45%, liberals have 45% and libertarians have 10%. Libertarians in the middle of those two becomes the swing vote and effectively dictate what happens. The other two parties have to suck up to them and they get power out of all proportion to how many people they actually represent. IIRC Israel once had a government that operated under this mechanic and it was screwy (admittedly that was a long time ago and I have no idea how it is today...might even be misremembering it was Israel so don't hold me to it). Not saying there shouldn't be more parties. I agree and often am sick of my only two choices and wish for another. Just have to be careful what you wish for. You just might get it. Italy, IIRC, still does have a political system dominated by coalition governments (the name for a government formed of two parties, teaming up to get a majority), as do many other European countries. Even Britain has coalition governments (although not in Westminster), particularly in the devolved parliaments. It can be bad, for the reasons you say. But there are examples of multi-party systems that do work. Take Britain's main Westminster parliament- in the last General election, Labour won with 35.3% of the vote, Conservatives became the main opposition with 32.3%, and Liberal Democrats came in third with 22.1%. Thats a bona fide three party system, and we've never had a coalition government for electoral reasons. ------ Originally by: Micheal Dietrich You can even get a midget with a camera to sit on the floorboard.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.07.04 18:04:00 - [83] Originally by: goodby4u Infact you can get fined for not standing at attention and putting your hand on your heart when they play the national anthem where I live. Yeah thats freedom. --- Its dead, Jim.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.07.04 18:05:00 - [84] Well, I think a war stopped is definetly better than a war "won". If you pull back your army, what will happen? Iraqis will chase you back to michigan, or what? Nothing will happen, and people can finally stop dying for someone else's profit.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2008.07.04 18:26:00 - [85] Originally by: P'uck Well, I think a war stopped is definetly better than a war "won". If you pull back your army, what will happen? Iraqis will chase you back to michigan, or what? Nothing will happen, and people can finally stop dying for someone else's profit. Shows how much you know. The same thing will happen that happened when we quit in Vietnam. Millions of people will die. Have you heard of Pol Pot who exterminated about a third of Cambodia's population? Do you remember the hundreds of thousands of boat people who drown fleeing from South Vietnam after it fell? All those people died because we quit and came home so we could sit on our asses and watch TV or go dance in the Disco's. Life was good in the USA and we all thought we were to good to go die in a rice paddy for someone else. Maybe you don't give a damn if millions of other people die. That would put you in the majority. But that's why millions of people get killed all the time. Rwanda. The Congo. Sudan. Burma. Somalia. Not to mention all those that have already been killed in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. Look at the Ethnic Cleansing that went on in the former states of Yugoslavia - which was IN Europe - before anyone got up off that fat asses and did anything. Oh ... and dying for someone elses profit ... If we really cared about profit - we would have fraking left S a d d a m in charge. He'd have been more than happy to sell us all the fraking oil we wanted - and at a good price too. Hell - we could have let him keep Kuwait and he'd have been happy to sell us all the oil we wanted. But - what would we do if he'd taken Saudi Arabia? What would we be doing if he'd finished the nukes he was working on? Or if we'd not dismantled those "fertilizer factories" he was producing his chemical weapons at? And you know something? Right now - all the crazys who want to die a martyr so they can get their 40 virgins - they're fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe you'd like it if they did come to Detroit and drop a building. Or have you forgotten about 9/11? You know - the thing that got us to do what we should have done 10 years ago in Iraq? The thing that got us to go into Afghanistan and put on the run the people who'd been bombing our ships, barracks and Embassies for years? A war you "stop" because you quit is NOT better than one you've stopped because you won.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.07.04 18:31:00 - [86] Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Or have you forgotten about 9/11? I remember how the hijackers passport survived the crash, that was cool. --- Its dead, Jim.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.07.04 18:53:00 - [87] Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk stuff Sounds as if you really believe they're fighting for peace...
Asuka Smith Gallente The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.07.04 19:05:00 - [88] Anyone who votes for Obama or McCain are short-sighted fools who never opened a newspaper in their lives. Bob Barr '08.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2008.07.04 19:09:00 - [89] Originally by: P'uck Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk stuff Sounds as if you really believe they're fighting for peace... They're fighting for just the things they say we're fighting for. To try to create stable democratic governments in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Claiming it's all for big business or such is an ancient liberal red herring. Sounds as if you really believe that crap. Business doesn't work that way. Business wants peace more than the hippies do. Wars blow things up and disrupt things like ... for example ... oil production. Business hates that. Now of course, business people being the greedy little bastards we all know them to be, they, in the true tradition of American Capitalism (in the Revolutionary war ... 1/3rd fought for the Revolutionaries, 1/3 fought for the British and ... the other third sold to both sides) are going to take advantage of ANY situation to see if they can't make a buck off it it. But - over all - they'd really prefer not to have their oil supplies disrupted. And ... OBTW ... you do realize the difference between a Liberal and a Conservative don't you? The Liberal is a greedy little twerp who wants the government to take away the rich man's money and give it to him (or his pet causes). The Conservative is a greedy bastard who wants the government to leave his money in his pocket and to hell with those less well off than he is.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.07.04 19:11:00 - [90] You're forgetting in which way war is good for business.

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