Originally by: goodby4u

---

Well, I dont know about the pin issue(im not a politician), but with the national anthem its second nature in america to put your hand on your heart whilst it is played, so much that not doing so is very deliberate.

Though I care more about the issues, I would love to hear his justification for not doing so.

---

Originally by: Roxanna Kell

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You are insane.

---

Originally by: Victor Valka

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Well, I dont know about the pin issue(im not a politician), but with the national anthem its second nature in america to put your hand on your heart whilst it is played, so much that not doing so is very deliberate.



Though I care more about the issues, I would love to hear his justification for not doing so.

---

With all due respect to national traditions.

Doing neither of the above really makes you a patriot. Any tool can put up a show.

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Well, I dont know about the pin issue(im not a politician), but with the national anthem its second nature in america to put your hand on your heart whilst it is played, so much that not doing so is very deliberate.

Though I care more about the issues, I would love to hear his justification for not doing so.

---

Originally by: Amoxin

---

My vent is talking to me in a devil voice...

---

Originally by: Atomos Darksun

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Well, I dont know about the pin issue(im not a politician), but with the national anthem its second nature in america to put your hand on your heart whilst it is played, so much that not doing so is very deliberate.

Though I care more about the issues, I would love to hear his justification for not doing so.

---

He also hates babies.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/07/2008 17:51:56

Patriotism is like religion - excellent for controlling the minds. Some people will believe Obama is unpatriotic because it was on CNN and there is nothing you can do about it. Every man has to realize what is behind the smoke and mirrors for himself I think.

Follow the money. As always.

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Well, I dont know about the pin issue(im not a politician), but with the national anthem its second nature in america to put your hand on your heart whilst it is played, so much that not doing so is very deliberate.

Though I care more about the issues, I would love to hear his justification for not doing so.

---

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich

---

You can even get a midget with a camera to sit on the floorboard.

---

Originally by: Patch86

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Well, I dont know about the pin issue(im not a politician), but with the national anthem its second nature in america to put your hand on your heart whilst it is played, so much that not doing so is very deliberate.

Though I care more about the issues, I would love to hear his justification for not doing so.

---

Has it occurred to you that, if he'd have been thinking about it, he'd ALMOST CERTAINLY have put his hand over his heart, patriotic or not? Theres absolutely no possible advantage for him to be seen not to do it, and every possible disadvantage.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people don't automatically put their hand on their heart during the anthem- only no-one notices unless they're a presidential candidate. Its certainly not common practice in the rest off the world.

---

Originally by: Patch86

---

Has it occurred to you that, if he'd have been thinking about it, he'd ALMOST CERTAINLY have put his hand over his heart, patriotic or not? Theres absolutely no possible advantage for him to be seen not to do it, and every possible disadvantage.

---

Originally by: Atomos Darksun

---

He also hates babies.

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Edited by: goodby4u on 03/07/2008 18:03:17

Originally by: Patch86

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Well, I dont know about the pin issue(im not a politician), but with the national anthem its second nature in america to put your hand on your heart whilst it is played, so much that not doing so is very deliberate.

Though I care more about the issues, I would love to hear his justification for not doing so.

---

Has it occurred to you that, if he'd have been thinking about it, he'd ALMOST CERTAINLY have put his hand over his heart, patriotic or not? Theres absolutely no possible advantage for him to be seen not to do it, and every possible disadvantage.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people don't automatically put their hand on their heart during the anthem- only no-one notices unless they're a presidential candidate. Its certainly not common practice in the rest off the world.

---

Incorrect, if youve ever been to a large place in america(such as a baseball game etc)EVERYBODY stands up and EVERYBODY takes their hat off and puts their hand on their heart.

---

Originally by: Tarminic

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Edited by: goodby4u on 03/07/2008 18:03:17

Originally by: Patch86

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Well, I dont know about the pin issue(im not a politician), but with the national anthem its second nature in america to put your hand on your heart whilst it is played, so much that not doing so is very deliberate.

Though I care more about the issues, I would love to hear his justification for not doing so.

---

Has it occurred to you that, if he'd have been thinking about it, he'd ALMOST CERTAINLY have put his hand over his heart, patriotic or not? Theres absolutely no possible advantage for him to be seen not to do it, and every possible disadvantage.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people don't automatically put their hand on their heart during the anthem- only no-one notices unless they're a presidential candidate. Its certainly not common practice in the rest off the world.

---

Incorrect, if youve ever been to a large place in america(such as a baseball game etc)EVERYBODY stands up and EVERYBODY takes their hat off and puts their hand on their heart.

---

I don't.

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Your from america?

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Originally by: Tarminic

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Your from america?

---

Sure am.

I dunno, it always seems like a really pretentious way to show patriotism since everyone just does it reflexively. I intentionally don't do it for that very reason.

I'll stand up because I don't want to be the only douchebag sitting down in a crowd of people, but I don't say the pledge or put my hand over my heart.

---

Originally by: P'uck

---

if it TRULY is a reflex it really is a bad thing.

also i dont like how some people think patriotism equals unconditional love for your country.

---

Originally by: Amoxin

---

My vent is talking to me in a devil voice...

---

Originally by: Atomos Darksun

---

Originally by: P'uck

---

if it TRULY is a reflex it really is a bad thing.

also i dont like how some people think patriotism equals unconditional love for your country.

---

This.

Patriotism is just a scheme to make the government have more control...

And being fined for not putting your hand over your heart?

WHAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE A HAND?

That would suck. But it is just the fed's wanting more control. Look at what's happening in the EU right now.

---

Originally by: Elliot Reid

---

I'm from the UK, England, and I hate our national anthem as I am anti monarchy. I am however, patriotic to my country.

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Originally by: goodby4u

---

Infact you can get fined for not standing at attention and putting your hand on your heart when they play the national anthem where I live.

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Originally by: El'tar

---

I WOULD WARRIOR FOR WOMAN BELONG TO ME!

---

Originally by: Maridius Secundus

---

Well, as i remember it the main issue was that Obama refused to for a long time to not wear a lapel pin of the usa. That and the fact that his wife said that "this is the first time im proud to call myself an american" made people question his patriotism.

---

Originally by: Lennit Purn

---

Even better is the people who insist on calling him Barack ******* Obama, just to make him sound scarier

---

Originally by: Atomos Darksun

---

He also EATS babies.

---

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich

---

hugging babies

---

Originally by: Lennit Purn

---

Originally by: Lennit Purn

---

Even better is the people who insist on calling him Barack ******* Obama, just to make him sound scarier

---

H-U-S-S-E-I-N

Why did it censor that?

---

Originally by: Lennit Purn

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Infact you can get fined for not standing at attention and putting your hand on your heart when they play the national anthem where I live.

---

And you're American? Bull. I'll bet you one million ISK and an apology that you can't find that statute.

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Originally by: Lennit Purn

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Infact you can get fined for not standing at attention and putting your hand on your heart when they play the national anthem where I live.

---

And you're American? Bull. I'll bet you one million ISK and an apology that you can't find that statute.

---

Its not something for everybody, its for anybody thats on this particular airforce base.

Note that you can get fined, most of the time it just merits either a bad letter or a trip to the commander's office.

---

Originally by: Julius Kalmaris

---

So I was watching CNN the other day and there was this big hoo-haa about Obama not loving America and not being a patriotic American. As I watched more I found out that the reason this was being said by McCains grunts was because during a rally Obama didn't have his hand over his heart while the anthem played.

---

Quote:

---

Sec. 301. National anthem

(a) Designation.ûThe composition consisting of the words and music
known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.ûDuring a rendition of the national
anthemû
(1) when the flag is displayedû
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at
attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with
their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder,
the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute
at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until
the last note; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face
toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag
were displayed.

---

Originally by: Ademaro Imre

---

Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 03/07/2008 19:41:20

Originally by: Julius Kalmaris

---

So I was watching CNN the other day and there was this big hoo-haa about Obama not loving America and not being a patriotic American. As I watched more I found out that the reason this was being said by McCains grunts was because during a rally Obama didn't have his hand over his heart while the anthem played.

---

Which McCain "grunts?"

Is is the law of the United States outlined in Title 36, section 301 about how to respect the flag, and it was re-amended as of 1992-1996. A United States Senator should be well versed in such simple customs, especially one who want to the th President. Throughout a man's life in the US, it is inconceivable that a man would not see what happens around him during the display of the Flag and the rendition of the national anthem. Six year olds know what to do. The only excuse BHO has, is that he has no respect for the flag or the national Anthem. If a Senatior does not know what to do, it is because he is absolutely incompetent, or as other may say, unpatriotic.

Quote:

---

Sec. 301. National anthem

(a) Designation.ûThe composition consisting of the words and music
known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.ûDuring a rendition of the national
anthemû
(1) when the flag is displayedû
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at
attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with
their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder,
the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute
at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until
the last note; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face
toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag
were displayed.

---

oh - and in before the lock.

---

Originally by: Ademaro Imre

---

Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 03/07/2008 19:41:20

Originally by: Julius Kalmaris

---

So I was watching CNN the other day and there was this big hoo-haa about Obama not loving America and not being a patriotic American. As I watched more I found out that the reason this was being said by McCains grunts was because during a rally Obama didn't have his hand over his heart while the anthem played.

---

Which McCain "grunts?"

Is is the law of the United States outlined in Title 36, section 301 about how to respect the flag, and it was re-amended as of 1992-1996. A United States Senator should be well versed in such simple customs, especially one who want to the th President. Throughout a man's life in the US, it is inconceivable that a man would not see what happens around him during the display of the Flag and the rendition of the national anthem. Six year olds know what to do. The only excuse BHO has, is that he has no respect for the flag or the national Anthem. If a Senatior does not know what to do, it is because he is absolutely incompetent, or as other may say, unpatriotic.

Quote:

---

Sec. 301. National anthem

(a) Designation.ûThe composition consisting of the words and music
known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.ûDuring a rendition of the national
anthemû
(1) when the flag is displayedû
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at
attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with
their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder,
the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute
at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until
the last note; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face
toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag
were displayed.

---

oh - and in before the lock.

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

this guy the 1mil, I mean WOW.

---

Originally by: Lennit Purn

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

this guy the 1mil, I mean WOW.

---

Nope. I wanted proof that he could be fined for not saying it. The flag code is a statute, but without a fine or any kind of punishment.

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Originally by: Lennit Purn

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

this guy the 1mil, I mean WOW.

---

Nope. I wanted proof that he could be fined for not saying it. The flag code is a statute, but without a fine or any kind of punishment.

---

Meh I guess, but it is fineable on our base, though most of the time it only merits either a trip to the commanders office or a warning.

---

Originally by: Tarminic

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Your from america?

---

Sure am.

I dunno, it always seems like a really pretentious way to show patriotism since everyone just does it reflexively.

---

Originally by: Ademaro Imre

---

How? It not a reflex. No one in any public event is surprised by the National Anthem being played. Everyone knows when it will happen, in fact - it is usually _announced_ to give honors to the singer and or band. Bystanders typically are hushed up in 30 seconds if they were not paying attention. Everyone knows where it will be sung, where the flag will be, or the general direction, or where the source of music will be. A sporting event is not halted in the middle of the game to play the anthem, its done before the game. Its not reflex, its intelligence. The first verse of the national anthem which is typically the only verse sung, is less than three minutes. People wanting to show their little effort in patriotism for three minutes is not pretentious. Its not pretentious to stop at a red light or stop sign.

---

Quote:

---

People wanting to show their little effort in patriotism for three minutes is not pretentious. Its not pretentious to stop at a red light or stop sign.

---

Originally by: Ademaro Imre

---

Originally by: Tarminic

---

Originally by: goodby4u

---

Your from america?

---

Sure am.

I dunno, it always seems like a really pretentious way to show patriotism since everyone just does it reflexively.

---

How? It not a reflex. No one in any public event is surprised by the National Anthem being played. Everyone knows when it will happen, in fact - it is usually _announced_ to give honors to the singer and or band. Bystanders typically are hushed up in 30 seconds if they were not paying attention. Everyone knows where it will be sung, where the flag will be, or the general direction, or where the source of music will be. A sporting event is not halted in the middle of the game to play the anthem, its done before the game. Its not reflex, its intelligence. The first verse of the national anthem which is typically the only verse sung, is less than three minutes. People wanting to show their little effort in patriotism for three minutes is not pretentious. Its not pretentious to stop at a red light or stop sign.

---

Originally by: P'uck

---

edit: And I think obama just didnt pay attention because as someone (patch86?) said earlier: there's no real advantage but every possible disadvantage in it for him.

---

Originally by: Ademaro Imre

---

It is the law of the United States outlined in Title 36, section 301 about how to respect the flag, and it was re-amended as of 1992-1996.

<...>

(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at
attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with
their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder,
the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute
at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until
the last note; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face
toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag
were displayed.

---

Originally by: Tarminic

---

They aren't doing it because they want to show their patriotism, they're doing it because they've been prompted to and everyone around them is doing it, and they don't want to stick out. If they wanted to show patriotism they'd do it when they weren't being prompted.

---

Originally by: Emily Spankratchet

---

Wow.

It's probably because I'm a pinko, wet, Guardian-reading limey, but the idea of legislating behaviour to be observed during the national anthem astounds me.

Of course, somebody will now point out that there's been a similar law in the UK since 1711, but still...

---

Originally by: Xen Gin

---

Edited by: Xen Gin on 03/07/2008 21:08:24
I hate the British national Anthem, but I'm patriotically Welsh and British, so its allowed.

---

Originally by: Julius Kalmaris

---

So I was watching CNN the other day and there was this big hoo-haa about Obama not loving America and not being a patriotic American. As I watched more I found out that the reason this was being said by McCains grunts was because during a rally Obama didn't have his hand over his heart while the anthem played. Oh and he wasn't wearing an American flag pin on his jacket.

You have to be kidding me right? I know politicians from one end of the spectrum to the other are morons but this is just ridiculous. Critisize a guy's patriotitism for not placing his hand over his heart and wearing a 50.cent pin made in China?

Now I'm not American, unless you consider Canada a state, but does one really need to place his hand over his heart for the nations anthem to show that their patriotic? Or wear a pin to boot. Can the guy not just listen to the anthem, understand the meaning to it, and thank it, his countrymen and founding fathers in his own way?

---

Originally by: Emily Spankratchet

---

Originally by: Ademaro Imre

---

It is the law of the United States outlined in Title 36, section 301 about how to respect the flag, and it was re-amended as of 1992-1996.

<...>

(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at
attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with
their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder,
the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute
at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until
the last note; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face
toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag
were displayed.

---

Wow.

It's probably because I'm a pinko, wet, Guardian-reading limey, but the idea of legislating behaviour to be observed during the national anthem astounds me.

Of course, somebody will now point out that there's been a similar law in the UK since 1711, but still...

---

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich

---

You can even get a midget with a camera to sit on the floorboard.

---

Quote:

---

Beyond a loyalty to AmericaÆs ideals, beyond a willingness to dissent on behalf of those ideals, I also believe that patriotism must, if it is to mean anything, involve the willingness to sacrifice û to give up something we value on behalf of a larger cause. For those who have fought under the flag of this nation û for the young veterans I meet when I visit Walter Reed; for those like John McCain who have endured physical torment in service to our country û no further proof of such sacrifice is necessary. And let me also add that no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters on both sides.

<snip>

Of course, precisely because America isnÆt perfect, precisely because our ideals constantly demand more from us, patriotism can never be defined as loyalty to any particular leader or government or policy. As Mark Twain, that greatest of American satirists and proud son of Missouri, once wrote, ôPatriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.ö We may hope that our leaders and our government stand up for our ideals, and there are many times in our history when thatÆs occurred. But when our laws, our leaders or our government are out of alignment with our ideals, then the dissent of ordinary Americans may prove to be one of the truest expression of patriotism.

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 03/07/2008 21:31:44
*sigh*

People could, you know, actually try to inform themselves of what Obama's position is on this. He actually just gave a whole, long speech on patriotism just a few days ago and it was widely regarded as one of the better political speeches in a long time (actually this guy is an amazing speaker...his speech on racism in the US last March was considered the best political speech in 40 years).

I'll help you out, here's a part of it from the link I just gave:

Quote:

---

Beyond a loyalty to AmericaÆs ideals, beyond a willingness to dissent on behalf of those ideals, I also believe that patriotism must, if it is to mean anything, involve the willingness to sacrifice û to give up something we value on behalf of a larger cause. For those who have fought under the flag of this nation û for the young veterans I meet when I visit Walter Reed; for those like John McCain who have endured physical torment in service to our country û no further proof of such sacrifice is necessary. And let me also add that no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters on both sides.

<snip>

Of course, precisely because America isnÆt perfect, precisely because our ideals constantly demand more from us, patriotism can never be defined as loyalty to any particular leader or government or policy. As Mark Twain, that greatest of American satirists and proud son of Missouri, once wrote, ôPatriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.ö We may hope that our leaders and our government stand up for our ideals, and there are many times in our history when thatÆs occurred. But when our laws, our leaders or our government are out of alignment with our ideals, then the dissent of ordinary Americans may prove to be one of the truest expression of patriotism.

---

Sounds brilliant and spot on to me.

---

Originally by: Ademaro Imre

---

Originally by: Tarminic

---

They aren't doing it because they want to show their patriotism, they're doing it because they've been prompted to and everyone around them is doing it, and they don't want to stick out. If they wanted to show patriotism they'd do it when they weren't being prompted.

---

I think you are trying to reach to far into peoples minds. People do not randomly stand and sing the national anthem at public events. Being a tradition of starting a public event with the National Anthem, and then a convocation sometimes, people know there will be a specific time for the Anthem.

---

Originally by: Slade Trillgon

---

Ding. I had heard about this, but had not heard it. Ditto on him being a great speaker. the first time I heard him I had flashes of JFK in my head, not that I remember JFK at all.

Slade

---

Originally by: Tarminic

---

So can a tradition be a true expression of patriotism? If it's something you're expected to do then how patriotic is it compared to expressing your patriotism outside of a scripted event?

My point is that I think saying the Pledge of Allegiance is part of a tradition, and traditions are no more than sets of practices passed down over time. If you're expected to do something, is doing so truly an act of patriotism of an act of conforming with a tradition? Personally, I believe the latter.

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Obama is stunningly good in his speeches. They do indeed have to go back to JFK for a politician who was as eloquent and thoughtful in his speeches.

Obama's speech on race was just jaw dropping good. Consider this is a politician giving a speech on racism in America (one of the few third rails in politics...they just - do - not - go there). Done during a bitter campaign. Done when he was being held to account for things the minister of his church had said. Instead of throwing his minister under the bus in traditional political fashion and muttering empty platitudes he explained the issue then proceeded to have a frank and thoughtful and eloquent discourse on racism in America.

His speeches inspired Will.I.Am of the Black Eyed Peas to take portions of Obama's inspirational concession speech from New Hampshire and turn it into a music video. He did another video here (as an aside anyone know who the sexy as hell woman is speaking in Spanish at 0:45...maybe it's the accent...I dunno).

BUT! If you want a real eye opener watch McCain's speech on the same night that Obama clinched the Democratic nomination. Contrast that to Obama's victory speech also done that same night.

When you are all done with that come back and let's talk.

---

Originally by: Slade Trillgon

---

Sorry, I cannot finish watching that McCain video at this moment. I have to take him in small doses, due to him being one smug individual. Other then that in the first 15 minutes of the video he had said absolutely nothing I have not heard him say since the beggining of the presidential campaigns.

Slade

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

I hear you. I recall one pundit opining that he looked like old cottage cheese in lime jello (with that green background).

Mostly watching it is worthwhile for the juxtaposition it provides to Obama's speech. The differences are stark and jump out at you right away (e.g. all of McCain's few dozen supporters giving weak applause at appropriate times to Obama's thousands drowning him out).

P.S. Amazed you actually watched it. Yet more proof EVE has some of the best people around. Doubt many WoW players would be caught dead watching a political speech.

---

Originally by: Ademaro Imre

---

No one is forced to do it, and everyone can choose not to do it. If someone feels pressured to do it because they lack the courage to let others know they have no respect for the flag, then that is their personal decision to do whatever they want to.

---

Originally by: Slade Trillgon

---

We need some more stinking parties. A nation of 300 million people and we still have only two viable parties. That is just a little backwards.

Slade

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 03/07/2008 23:43:58

Originally by: Slade Trillgon

---

We need some more stinking parties. A nation of 300 million people and we still have only two viable parties. That is just a little backwards.

Slade

---

Maybe.

I kind of agree and have thought the same but the calculation is not necessarily as simple as it seems on the face of it. Sometimes you can get a rule by minority (as in fewer people). Say conservatives have 45%, liberals have 45% and libertarians have 10%. Libertarians in the middle of those two becomes the swing vote and effectively dictate what happens. The other two parties have to suck up to them and they get power out of all proportion to how many people they actually represent. IIRC Israel once had a government that operated under this mechanic and it was screwy (admittedly that was a long time ago and I have no idea how it is today...might even be misremembering it was Israel so don't hold me to it).

Not saying there shouldn't be more parties. I agree and often am sick of my only two choices and wish for another. Just have to be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

---

Originally by: Ademaro Imre

---

No one is forced to do it, and everyone can choose not to do it. If someone feels pressured to do it because they lack the courage to let others know they have no respect for the flag, then that is their personal decision to do whatever they want to.

---

Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz

---

Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 04/07/2008 00:39:53
I have more than enough reasons to detest him. Not putting his hand on his heart, not wearing a pin, or having an unfortunate middle name aren't even on the radar.

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz

---

Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 04/07/2008 00:39:53
I have more than enough reasons to detest him. Not putting his hand on his heart, not wearing a pin, or having an unfortunate middle name aren't even on the radar.

---

It's Not The Economy Stupid
(Paid for by smart people who want a smart president)

---

Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz

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Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 04/07/2008 00:39:53
I have more than enough reasons to detest him. Not putting his hand on his heart, not wearing a pin, or having an unfortunate middle name aren't even on the radar.

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It's Not The Economy Stupid
(Paid for by smart people who want a smart president)

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Thanks for illustrating my point!

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz

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Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 04/07/2008 00:39:53
I have more than enough reasons to detest him. Not putting his hand on his heart, not wearing a pin, or having an unfortunate middle name aren't even on the radar.

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It's Not The Economy Stupid
(Paid for by smart people who want a smart president)

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Thanks for illustrating my point!

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You must own an oil company or work for Halliburton.

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Originally by: Victor Valka

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Doing neither of the above really makes you a patriot. Any tool can put up a show.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 03/07/2008 23:43:58

Originally by: Slade Trillgon

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We need some more stinking parties. A nation of 300 million people and we still have only two viable parties. That is just a little backwards.

Slade

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Maybe.

I kind of agree and have thought the same but the calculation is not necessarily as simple as it seems on the face of it. Sometimes you can get a rule by minority (as in fewer people). Say conservatives have 45%, liberals have 45% and libertarians have 10%. Libertarians in the middle of those two becomes the swing vote and effectively dictate what happens. The other two parties have to suck up to them and they get power out of all proportion to how many people they actually represent. IIRC Israel once had a government that operated under this mechanic and it was screwy (admittedly that was a long time ago and I have no idea how it is today...might even be misremembering it was Israel so don't hold me to it).

Not saying there shouldn't be more parties. I agree and often am sick of my only two choices and wish for another. Just have to be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

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Originally by: Micheal Dietrich

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You can even get a midget with a camera to sit on the floorboard.

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Originally by: goodby4u

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Infact you can get fined for not standing at attention and putting your hand on your heart when they play the national anthem where I live.

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Originally by: P'uck

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Well, I think a war stopped is definetly better than a war "won".

If you pull back your army, what will happen? Iraqis will chase you back to michigan, or what?

Nothing will happen, and people can finally stop dying for someone else's profit.

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Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

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Or have you forgotten about 9/11?

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Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

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stuff

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Originally by: P'uck

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Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

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stuff

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Sounds as if you really believe they're fighting for peace...

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Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

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Business wants peace more than the hippies do.

Wars blow things up and disrupt things like ... for example ... oil production.

Business hates that.

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Quote:

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Or have you forgotten about 9/11?

You know - the thing that got us to do what we should have done 10 years ago in Iraq?

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Wow immy scored - Xorus

Originally by: P'uck

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You're forgetting in which way war is good for business.

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Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

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Well, I've passed on enough jewels of wisdom for one day.

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Originally by: goodby4u

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If you dont believe me go to your nearest airforce base and find a way in, they play the national anthem at 5 pm wherever it is and the rules are as follows.

If your in a car whilst its playing you must pull over and stop.

If your not in uniform you must stop and stand at attention with your hand on your heart facing the direction of the anthem.

If your in uniform you must salute the nearest flag to you, this is null and void if there is no nearby flag and you must revert to rule two.

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Originally by: El'tar

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I WOULD WARRIOR FOR WOMAN BELONG TO ME!

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Originally by: Micheal Dietrich

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I've taken note lately that god really promotes racism.

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Originally by: Fabien Aldric

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Obama hates America, therefore God hates Obama. Anyone who voted or votes for that negro is committing a grave sin against your Lord and Saviour. Vote for McCain if you support saving the souls of innocent misguided muslims by sending them directly to God.

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Originally by: Fabien Aldric

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Originally by: Micheal Dietrich

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I've taken note lately that god really promotes racism.

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Shut up, democrat. God loves our country, and obama hates it since he doesn't even know what to do with his monkey hands when the anthem's playing. God hates abominations like that.

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Originally by: El'tar

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I WOULD WARRIOR FOR WOMAN BELONG TO ME!

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Originally by: Fabien Aldric

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Obama hates America, therefore God hates Obama. Anyone who voted or votes for that negro is committing a grave sin against your Lord and Saviour. Vote for McCain if you support saving the souls of innocent misguided muslims by sending them directly to God.

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Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

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Originally by: P'uck

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You're forgetting in which way war is good for business.

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Horse manure.

Stable governments with citizens that make enough money to buy your stuff are what's good for business.

War torn nations with impoverished citizens aren't good for anybody.

Democracies don't make war on each other because most people don't care enough about going to war unless they've got a really good reason.

But governments led by fanatics religious, political or otherwise do.

Wars are NOT good for business.

Peace, with lots of happy consumers is good for business.

As I said they'll make a buck anywhere they can but defense contracting is risky. Businesses don't like risk. They'd rather sell pop music or hot dogs than pour millions into development of a project that doesn't get selected or gets canceled. Obviously, you've got some defense contractors - but most businesses are not in the defense contracting business. Just take a look at all the defense contractors that don't exist any more. Look at all the mergers. They didn't merge because they wanted to - they merged because they had to.

But that is typical Liberal thinking and crap talk. Most Liberals don't know squat about business, because they think they're to good and noble to grub for money.

Conservatives think Liberals are to stupid to grub for money.

Neither one knows the other. They just swallow the silliness their friends all mouth and follow the current fads like the sheep they mostly are.


Well, I've passed on enough jewels of wisdom for one day. Time to go waste my time in a different way ... like maybe playing the game or watching cartoons.

Anyway, I wish Barack luck as President. Given the fact the poor man has no idea what he's doing he's really going to need it. But we survived 8 years of Ronald Reagan, we'll probably survive Barack Obama ... even if a few million people else where don't.

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Originally by: Fabien Aldric

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Obama hates America, therefore God hates Obama. Anyone who voted or votes for that negro is committing a grave sin against your Lord and Saviour. Vote for McCain if you support saving the souls of innocent misguided muslims by sending them directly to God.

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Originally by: Kalahari Wayrest

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Quote:

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Or have you forgotten about 9/11?

You know - the thing that got us to do what we should have done 10 years ago in Iraq?

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*blinks* yeah what is the connection between 9/11 and the war in Iraq? I never understood that one

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Originally by: mamolian

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Is it surprising in anyway.. reading this thread.. That the average IQ is only 100? This is one ****ing fail thread. Get out.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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it was widely regarded as one of the better political speeches in a long time (actually this guy is an amazing speaker...his speech on racism in the US last March was considered the best political speech in 40 years).

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Yes, I'm positive that Obama didn't place his hand over his heard because he hates freedom. He's also apparently a Muslim and a Murderer.

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Originally by: Keorythe

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Perception is everything in diplomacy and foreign politics. If he's seen as unpatriotic, counter-culture, or radical by foreign leaders he's going to have a very hard time with his diplomacy.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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And will you stop with terms like unpatriotic? Nobody outside the US uses ancient terms like that anymore. This is not the 17:th century.

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Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

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Originally by: P'uck

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Well, I think a war stopped is definetly better than a war "won".

If you pull back your army, what will happen? Iraqis will chase you back to michigan, or what?

Nothing will happen, and people can finally stop dying for someone else's profit.

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Shows how much you know.

The same thing will happen that happened when we quit in Vietnam.



Millions of people will die.

Have you heard of Pol Pot who exterminated about a third of Cambodia's population?

Do you remember the hundreds of thousands of boat people who drown fleeing from South Vietnam after it fell?

All those people died because we quit and came home so we could sit on our asses and watch TV or go dance in the Disco's. Life was good in the USA and we all thought we were to good to go die in a rice paddy for someone else.

Maybe you don't give a damn if millions of other people die.

That would put you in the majority.

But that's why millions of people get killed all the time.

Rwanda.

The Congo.

Sudan.

Burma.

Somalia.

Not to mention all those that have already been killed in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

Look at the Ethnic Cleansing that went on in the former states of Yugoslavia - which was IN Europe - before anyone got up off that fat asses and did anything.



Oh ... and dying for someone elses profit ...

If we really cared about profit - we would have fraking left S a d d a m in charge. He'd have been more than happy to sell us all the fraking oil we wanted - and at a good price too. Hell - we could have let him keep Kuwait and he'd have been happy to sell us all the oil we wanted.

But - what would we do if he'd taken Saudi Arabia?

What would we be doing if he'd finished the nukes he was working on?

Or if we'd not dismantled those "fertilizer factories" he was producing his chemical weapons at?

And you know something?

Right now - all the crazys who want to die a martyr so they can get their 40 virgins - they're fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Maybe you'd like it if they did come to Detroit and drop a building.

Or have you forgotten about 9/11?

You know - the thing that got us to do what we should have done 10 years ago in Iraq?

The thing that got us to go into Afghanistan and put on the run the people who'd been bombing our ships, barracks and Embassies for years?

A war you "stop" because you quit is NOT better than one you've stopped because you won.

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Originally by: Aindrias

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/25/does-this-make-george-hw_n_88397.html

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/10/23/fox_friends_makes_a_big_deal_of_barack_obam_not_putting_his_hand_over_heart_during_national_anthem_but_bush_made_his_own_mistake.php

Let us put this to rest thanks!

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Originally by: HankMurphy

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It's ok to rip on Obama... but ripping on "insert term that indicates an incredibly low intelligence also possibly indicating brain damage" ppl?
That's just not cool man.
Not cool.

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Originally by: Malashek Vatrii

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You people think George Bush is dumb? I'd say he's a ****ing genius. He got you lot to vote him in.

TWICE.

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Originally by: Malashek Vatrii

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You people think George Bush is dumb? I'd say he's a ****ing genius. He got you lot to vote him in.

TWICE.

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Originally by: Micheal Dietrich

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You can even get a midget with a camera to sit on the floorboard.

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Originally by: Micheal Dietrich

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Edited by: Micheal Dietrich on 04/07/2008 23:36:23

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich

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God hates......

Man I've been lied to time and time again by others who tell me that god loves all his children.

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I am not very religious but I was raised Christian so you get a big QFT.