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CSM - CCP Meeting 001 - 0022 Shares, Dividends and Stock Market

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CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2008.07.10 14:08:00 - [1] Eyj= (CCP) understood the need for improving stock trading, but setting up the underlying infrastructure would be complex. He strongly believes that financial auditing and reporting should be dealt with by the players. However, this would result in problems with alts and accountability, as it would be hard to provide consequences to fraudulent characters. In Eve, trust would also be a problem, as players are discouraged to trust other people with their investments as precedented by other game mechanics. This might mean that the whole stock market would ended up to be controlled by only a few individuals with sufficient reputation, while it would be impossible for new parties to get any kind of position in this system. CCP does not plan to build this system if only a few people will benefit from it. CCP encourages the CSM and players to think about these issues and how players can be held accountable for financial audits and records, as well as come up with possible mechanics and solutions. Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email "It's not worth doing something unless you are doing something that someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing."

Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.07.10 16:54:00 - [2] Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely. At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality?
Malafet Caldari Industrial Cast-a-ways	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:07:00 - [3] Some simple ideas that may help, make all Corps that sell stock, have their financial records open to the public the way real Corps do. Also have all stock pay out and selling set, if the corp says they pay 10% of their stocks value, make the corp pay 10% even if that means that the corp's account go under(Also don't allow Members to leave a corp until the corp balance is back above 0isk, or possibly draw from any member that has financial control in the corp, leaving them with more responsibility to their stock holders), or have it draw from "all" the Corp members personal Accounts(this will also push corps that sell stock to work together), this will deter corps from pulling their funds from the stock holders. Also Stock Value should depend on profits from sells on the market and through contracts not Player run Audits, it wouldn't be that hard to make a financial Algorithm that totaled the values of items made and sold based on in corp players skills! I would also like to see more in the area of accountability, I am a stock holder in several Corps and I have found that most corps don't even pay dividends, so stock value is basically what some plays says they want to sell the stock they own in a corp. Which means that corp stocks are being sold from player to player, and the only person that makes any profit is the corp, because even if they only get 1 isk/per stock without some kind of payout they make all profit! ~Malafet~
Lieutenant Isis Gristle Industries	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:10:00 - [4] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely. At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality? Contracting shares would be all that is required to make a more secure method available. The community would then be in a good position to make externally supported stock markets using the API key much they way that EBANK does now with ISK. The potential for scams is still there which is a good thing too.
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:24:00 - [5] Corp Shares are one of my pet peeves. At present there is only one form of Corp Ownership: Total solo Dictatorship. Whoever owns 51% of the shares effectively owns 100%, and those with less own nothing. For example, in the recent disbanding of my old corp, Vendetta Underground, I owned 23% of the total shares. Yet the CEO was able to take all of the corp assets as his personal property and my 23% had NO VALUE AT ALL. Since I had decided not to follow what I thought was a corrupt and inept leader, I wanted to cash in the shares accumulated as rewards for years of service to the corp. Instead, all the share ownership did was allow me to see the theft being committed by my CEO, but not to challenge it. It shure would be nice if there was a way that individuals could invest in a corp and be secure in their investment. Trusting anyone in Eve is the stupidest thing you can ever do, so that's out. We need a game-enforced method for share ownership to be a tangible asset invulnerable to theft.
Pwett QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:37:00 - [6] Turn shares into something that we can contract. Everything else will sort itself out. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
HawkBlade Starlancers	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:46:00 - [7] Originally by: CCP Wrangler This might mean that the whole stock market would ended up to be controlled by only a few individuals with sufficient reputation, while it would be impossible for new parties to get any kind of position in this system. This is already the case as embodied by EGSE brokers. As stock market itself is far to complex even for real life professionals to police, thus I agree that it should be off the agenda. However not being able to transfer shares in a method secure for both parties is a crime that continues to this day. Shame on you for not even admitting to your negligence on this. Until secure trading includes shares, all discussion is pointless and you, CCP, empower only few with reputations at the cost of everything else.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:51:00 - [8] I'm not sure how much it'd help, but one thing I'd like to see a well-trusted character do is become an auditor for public corporations. You don't need to run it, just monitor the books. It'd probably help stave off a lot of scamming. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Ricdics Corporate Placement Holding	Posted - 2008.07.10 18:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I'm not sure how much it'd help, but one thing I'd like to see a well-trusted character do is become an auditor for public corporations. You don't need to run it, just monitor the books. It'd probably help stave off a lot of scamming. Where have you been? It's been happening for months dude and there are multiple characters who do it. Pop your head into the Market Discussions forum one day, it's a whole new world in there.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.07.10 18:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Ricdics Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I'm not sure how much it'd help, but one thing I'd like to see a well-trusted character do is become an auditor for public corporations. You don't need to run it, just monitor the books. It'd probably help stave off a lot of scamming. Where have you been? It's been happening for months dude and there are multiple characters who do it. Pop your head into the Market Discussions forum one day, it's a whole new world in there. Not a part of the game I play, sorry. I stand corrected. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Athre The Higher Standard	Posted - 2008.07.11 02:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely. At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality? ^^ this Regarding Auditors there is much they can do with API to substantiate the claim of someone starting an IPO EXCEPT tell the difference between a BPO and BPC - anyway that could get fixed CCP? No mater what the auditor's findings its only on what has been done up to that point, no assurance the person requesting venture capital will actually do as they say....
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2008.07.11 05:36:00 - [12] Why should the stock market be any different than the rest of the game? I mean alts are used by everyone to avoid involving their corps/alliances. They are used to post with, haul goods to empire, sell items and buy items. I fail to see how they would be any more detrimental to the stock market. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.07.11 13:16:00 - [13] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely. At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality? Exactly. Creating a secure way to sell AND buyback shares would be step 1. We already have auditing in the form of the API (increase the amount of information from the full API though). From there everything would already fall into place, and design mechanics issues would become readily apparent. When WE the players say we want a stock market. We are not asking for an entire new UI overhaul, new windows, major additions. We are asking for a secure and easy way to transfer shares between players. Make shares contractible... the market will create itself.
Tribalist	Posted - 2008.07.11 16:34:00 - [14] Should a Corp decide to go public. Create two types of Stock. Voteing and Non-voteing stock. Stock Valuation: For non voting Stock. 1. The full value of the Master wallet & a Corp set percentage of each other corp wallet division. (set between 2% and 10%) The master wallet cannot be less than 20% of the total of all Isk in the corp. Should it fall below that it auto drafts from the other wallet divisions eqauly to bring it's self back to 20%. 2. non-voting stock can be sold and traded freely between players. 3. Non voting sock can be sold back to the original corp. at current value (based on valuation #1) (this will create a stock that fluctuates in value which is a good thing for investors/ speculators based upon the strength/ health of the corp issuing the stock) It also does not kill corp management by having voting stock out there in the hands of the masses. Voting Stock: 1. Can only be issued by the CEO 2. Is valued at the Full Value of the all Wallet Divisions divided by the amount of stock issued including the non-voting stock) 3. The CEO through the corperation can at any time buy the stock back at full value. This creates ownership in a corp for corp members / directors. It still allows the Corp to get rid of a "problem member" by buying thier voting stock back. I would like to see some way of Tagging corp assets, for instance if the corp buys a Moros then that moros is tagged as a corp asset and cannot be sold or contracted out of the corp, except by successfull vote. Regardless of who currently has possetion of it. The asset would also contribute value to the corp stock. Any one coming into possetion of said asset would be notified that it belongs to XYZ corp, that XYZ corp has been notified of its whereabouts, and that thier use of it constitutes "agro" and that they can be fired upon without concord intervention. This would curb a lot of corp theft or at least give the injured corp some recourse. (More PVP! ) Just a few suggestions Tribe Tribe Friend's don't let friend's drive the Imicus
Matalino Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.07.11 21:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe Could start by just allowing shares to be able to track through journal, and the ability to contract/trade them securely. At the very least CCP could maybe consider this functionality? This! Accountability and trust are issues that extend fair beyond the scope of just the stock market. No attempt to address those issues would be effective if approached only with the intent of creating a foundation for the stock market, as it must address all aspects and styles of game play for it to effectively protect those investing into the stock market. All that we are asking for is the means to contract/trade shares securely.
Macmuelli Meltd0wn Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.07.12 19:50:00 - [16] Edited by: Macmuelli on 12/07/2008 19:53:30 A market around shares would be realy interesting. My personal thoughts: Corporation Shares should be only avaibale from Npc s corps. The should be gettable on a realy hard and expensive way, which gurantee u a monthly dividende upon the buisness which was done for the corp. ( Tax from Trades on there stations/ mineral refining etc...) A way for modern/industrial pvp if peoples try to push buisness on Stations (npc- corporations)to get more dividende each month. If u know that your enemie corporation owns shares of Station.... u will not do trades there, because u will not make them rich.(Theorie) About trust: Peoples should be able to found "Fonds". This should be adapted like founding an alliance. Like "Corporation A.B.C. investment found". The founder had to pay a fee of 500 million isks as a base capital into a npc shareholding bank. From this moment the bank announce that a new "fond" is avaiable, and offers "Fonds-shares". Pa example. 1 million shares for 500 isks each. To buy shares from this bank u will need some "new " broker skills. Upon the level u will be able to buy limited numbers of shares. The Npc- shareholding bank returns 50% of the incoming money back to the founder of the fond. ( on a seperate fond wallet). "The rest stays in line" "The founder is able to split the corp tax and can set a special "fond tax".( limited to 15%) Example: Fonds wallet = 250 mio isks corp tax = 100 % fond tax = 15% (from every incoming corp tax goes 15 % seperate into the fond wallet) Monthly incoming: 1 bn isks = fond wallet: 400 mio isks ( end of the month) Shareholding bank wallet ( fond capital) = 500 mio( basecapital to cover the shares) + 250 mio from the share owners which had buy shares = 750 mio isks Fond wallet:= 400 mio isks =( 350 mio less then the shareholding bank wallet) To get a dividende, the fond wallet must be minimum 750.000.001 isks. This isks should be splitted then in a % to raise up the fond-base-capital + a payout % tax. Upon the raise up of the Basecapital, the worth of the shares raise up. U can sell them to the shareholding bank. u had to pay a tax then. If the fond wallet is less then the shareholding wallet, the worth of the shares fall down. Not realy risky. But as the founder u should be able to "ask" the shareholders to get a credit on the "fond wallet". To buy a bpo pa example. Pa example: The " Fond wallet" = 750 mio isks. U need 280 mio isks for a bc bpo. The shareholders vote Yes. The founder is able to buy the bpo via this fond wallet and is limited to the 280 mio isks. Bpos buyed by this wallet are "flagged" and a part of the fond. Selling it is only doable via a vote by the shareholders. Something like this could cover the trust issue. If the founder want to buy a carrier from this money and the shareholders vote Yes. It is there own risk if the carrier is destroeyd. The "insurance" money goes into the fond wallet then. Perhaps something like this could be worth think about. Not perfect! But keep the stone running. breg mac HStt de MSkelb÷rger ierst n Menschen in sin Haart inschlottn, denn kann diese Mensch sich opn Meckelb÷rger full und gonz verlatten." evefan since 2003
Xornicon Altair Woopatang The Red Skull	Posted - 2008.07.12 20:51:00 - [17] All other ideas aside, let's make the stocks in a corp directly representative of the amount of money in the wallet of the corp. So, if there's 1000 shares and there's 1,000,000 ISK in the wallet, each share is then worth 1000 ISK. In this way, as a corp wallet grows, then, realistically, so does the value of the stocks. And thusly, if someone wishes to sell his or her stock in the corp, there can be an automatic system in place to pay them the value of their stocks out of the corp wallet. Also, in this way, the CEO or Directors of a corp can never take more money out of the corp wallet than is the value of their stocks, thus preventing a corrupt CEO from pilfering 100% of his corp's value overnight and leaving everyone else with nothing. If a CEO holds on to 100% of the corp stocks, then, he is still the dictator at the top, but, as soon as he starts to sell stocks off, there's potential for him to loose control. As a side note: To encourage CEOs to offload more stocks, make it so that votes through shares require a 2/3 majority, rather than a 50% majority. Though, this may encourage them to hoard more stocks than offload... ah well. The Red Skull: http://www.eve-syndicate.com/index.php
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.07.13 19:52:00 - [18] I'm not in shares, ipo and all this stuff BUT why shares aren't available on the market ? This wouldn't work ? Fetchez la vache !
Dex Nederland Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.07.13 21:19:00 - [19] A corp's value though is not represented by the sum of its wallet divisions. If the corporation has static assets like a POS, this adds value to the corporation. Products for sale by a corporation (stored or on the market) also add to the value of a corporation. So how do you determine the true value of a corporation? If the the wallet never total more than 1b for example, but it has 2 corporate Freighters & 1 Rorqual, how much is the corporation worth? Founder Heiian Society
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.07.13 23:01:00 - [20] I don't think a corp stock market needs to be incredibly complex. In fact, in order to encourage Player participation it's important that any system is not to obscure - remember this is a game first and foremost. I think we need to understand why a player would want to purchase shares in a corp, and base a system around that. In my view a player would want to buy shares for 3 reasons: 1. Mid term investment & on ward sale: the player intends to sell the shares at some stage for more than the purchase price. 2. Long Term Income generation: the player intends to keep the shares an make his money back via dividends. 3. Political Control: the player wants a say in what the Corp does, from the base of being able to vote on issues, propose votes all the way up to full Corp ownership. The share seller is selling these attributes - the expected dividend, political control and potential share value. In order to achieve 'trust' in the share option the purchaser should be able to see the following: 1. The historic dividend pay out per share and the next dividend payout value / share. (this means dividend payouts should be a automated feature). 2. The percentage of ownership. e.g 1000 shares = 25% ownership. How much ISK the Corp wallet has, how many POS's or BS it has is largely irrelevant provided the corp shows a consistent history of dividend pay outs. After all not all Corps make ISK purely from a physical activity (e.g a corp that makes ISK by making Alliances). To buy, or not to buy... Its a risk, always will be. But the dividend payout will act as a guide to the historic reliability of the corp (regardless of its income method). A corp with a long dividend history will be seen as more reliable, hence its shares will be worth more and so on. In order to make this process reasonably user friendly any 'stock market' should show the following: Corp: Share value over time. Dividend payout over time. The share 'item' should show: Sell value. % ownership Next dividend payout. The next dividend payout is guarunteed - no one can reduce the corp wallet below the dividend payout of all shares in that given period. I would suggest dividends are paid weekly - in order to provide sufficient div history data and a more dynmaic market. % ownership Ownership allows you to have a % value in all votes, including the ability to propose votes and see who else has varying degrees of ownership. A host of 'sanctionable' actions could come into play here such as - increase div payout, surrender war, declare war, release more shares, lock master wallet at % value and so on. (One interesting aspect of shares not yet explored is that they could be surrenderd by a corp as means of canceling a war dec: in effect a 'win' condition). C. VITOC - Amarr Corp for Faction Warfare!
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.07.13 23:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Dex Nederland A corp's value though is not represented by the sum of its wallet divisions. If the corporation has static assets like a POS, this adds value to the corporation. Products for sale by a corporation (stored or on the market) also add to the value of a corporation. So how do you determine the true value of a corporation? If the the wallet never total more than 1b for example, but it has 2 corporate Freighters & 1 Rorqual, how much is the corporation worth? Thats true, but its not relevant here. The only consideration is - Can the corp make its dividend payments? It might achieve that by liquidating all its material assets (POS's, ships etc), having its members mine until their eyes bleed, singing on vent for isk or stealing a Titan and flogging it. What's important is whether you judge you'll make a return on your investment through dividends. C. VITOC - Amarr Corp for Faction Warfare!
Dapanman1 Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative	Posted - 2008.07.14 01:07:00 - [22] How about a way to vote to consolidate shares. My corp has a few dozen shareholders (no idea why) and 90% of them are inactive characters, effectivly making corp votes meaningless. Sig removed for inappropriate content.~~~Applebabe
Riprion Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.07.14 03:05:00 - [23] Edited by: Riprion on 14/07/2008 03:06:29 I don't understand why everyone is trying to take all the risk out of owning stock. Owning stock is risky. That is why the reward can be great. Here is what I think should be done. Make stock a physical item like ammo. This would allow it to be openly traded on the market. The corp would produce "stock certificates" at the station where it is going to make it's IPO. The stock would be offered for sale and traders would buy that stock. Making it a market tradeable object would also provide basic charts that traders could use to work the market. The corporation would set up a dividend percentage that they could change through an announcement, maybe through an automated email to all stakeholders. Lowering a dividend would probably cause the price of the stock to fall just like RL. The corporation would be required to issue fiscal reports on a quarterly basis. The price of the stock would drop if profits were down from the previous quarter just like RL. CCP should just let the market take care of things. As far as voting stock is concerned there could either be voting and non-voting stock or the corporation would just have to maintain 51% stake. More likely they would need to maintain a much smaller stake as voter apathy permits control with a stake in the 20% range. In order to make the stock object work it might be able to function like a reusable neural implant. When you buy the stock object you would file it "read: implant it", and that would create a flag that would allow you a vote. Each one adds up and the voting mechanics would call that property to see how many votes you get. CCP shouldn't be too concerned about scams. Even with a ton of regulation RL still has Enron potential. Look what happened when that scandal broke. Everyone realized that a previously highly valued stock was worthless and the price plummeted. This is exactly what should have happened. As I said before, owning stock is risky. The value of the stock absolutely should not be directly tied to a corp wallet or asset valuation. This is because the amount of money in the wallet or assets do not represent future profitability, especially for a financial or trading corp. Future profitability is a factor that typically reflected in price. The stock is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay at a given moment. From many of the comments, it sounds like players think that stocks are bonds and the dividend is the interest. Stocks create a massive inflow of capital into the corp at the IPO, but after that, stock value increases help the stake holders in the corp only from the increased valuation if they sell stock, or if used by the corporation as assets that can be borrowed against. In conclusion, stocks are risky. Stocks are not bonds. Stocks should be market tradeable objects that are out of the control of the corp, unless they buy them back and go private. Market tradable objects would automatically enable charting. Lastly, voting stock could be be modeled after implants that would alter a "vote" property. I'm interested to hear what others think about this idea.
joemina	Posted - 2008.07.21 04:20:00 - [24] There are three things that need to happen. 1) Stocks need to be able to be traded securely from corp to player and player to player, like items are currently traded. This will allow people to sell and buy stocks at market prices that are determined by how people value the corporation and its stock. 2)Corps need the ability to distribute dividends Corps should not have to distribute dividends. It should be optional. Buyers of stock of corps that don't distribute dividends would be buying stock based in speculated increase in price and control of the company. Distributing dividends would help make a corporation's stock look more interesting to investors. These dividends should be automatic but not be guaranteed. Guaranting dividends takes the risk out of the stock and would raise stock prices artificially. The corp should have the option to be able to set a dividend price per share at a beginning a period, also with the option not to have a dividend payment for that period. This way, the corp can control its dividend payment period and make sure it has enough ISK to cover the dividend per shares. Again, this factor would help buyers determine what price they would like to pay on the market. At the end of the period, the money would be taken from the corp wallet and distributed among the shareholders. If the corp does not have enough money in the corp wallet to cover it dividend. The corp wallet should be emptied and zeroed. 3)Players need to be able to see dividend and stock price history of the corporation This will help players determine which stock to buy at what price based on the reliability of the company in the past. The history will show when corps don't meet their dividends, dividend per share, price and frequency of dividends. Even if this is done off-line or out of game this would be fine, research companies stock history off-line and buy it in game. Most people do this for their ships, outfitting, etc. already anyways, so that's not that big of a deal. If you guys are worried about corruptful CEO's, have an insurance system where corps can have the option to have there dividend's guaranteed by having them backed by a NPC corps. This would allow newer corporations to help gain reliability and trust from their investors. One could take into account the corps standing with the NPC and CONCORD to determine how much of the dividends the NPC would be willing to guarentee for a price. This would prompt a new stat to keep track of also, % of dividend guaranteed to the investor even if company wasn't able to pay up For example Corp ABC has: -1 mil shares -100 isk per share dividend declared at beginning of period(100 mil in ISK paid to investors) -Corp has good standing with NPC corp and has paid NPC corp X amount to insure 20 mil in dividends. - At end of period corp only has 85 million in wallet. -Corp Wallet ends up with 5 million --First it will take from the corp wallet( 85 milllion) and if there isn't enough, the corp gets all the insurance from the NPC (20 million) So the investors get their ISK, but the corp takes a hit in standing with the NPC corp. The magnitude of the hit should be based on the size of guarantee. The blame should also be shared throughout the corporation, slightly decreasing every player in the corp's standing with that corporation. This would discourage corps from missing their dividend numbers and encourage corp members to work together to achieve this. Also if the corp looses enough standing it shouldn't be able to get the same guarantee, or a guarantee at all until the corp regains its standing with that corporation. Like i said though, this will just artificially raises the price of stock through a fake sense of security. There will always be people trying to rip you off. That's part of the risk of investing. And like real life, one doesn't have to have stock to be successful in EVE, so if you don't like the risk just don't invest.
Ohne Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.04 20:39:00 - [25] Didnt read through all the replys but I belive a stock market is not a possibility unless CCP is ready to punish people for fraud. Without that, a stock market will always be some half assed attempt just to look nice and wont really produce any good tbh. Maby you could make some special rules around corporations that list their corp into the stock market to prevent people from scamming. Stock market needs investors and they wont come unless they can not only trust the corp but also know that if he trys to run off with the isk, he will be dealt with. I know CCP wont punish people for scamming, and I support that. However a stock market cant work without a little bit of law.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.04 21:37:00 - [26] Until eve can handle a rights issue with shares, then going any further is rather pointless. -- Billion Isk Mission
J Kunjeh	Posted - 2008.08.04 21:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Riprion Edited by: Riprion on 14/07/2008 03:06:29 I don't understand why everyone is trying to take all the risk out of owning stock. Owning stock is risky. That is why the reward can be great. Here is what I think should be done. Make stock a physical item like ammo. This would allow it to be openly traded on the market. The corp would produce "stock certificates" at the station where it is going to make it's IPO. The stock would be offered for sale and traders would buy that stock. Making it a market tradeable object would also provide basic charts that traders could use to work the market. The corporation would set up a dividend percentage that they could change through an announcement, maybe through an automated email to all stakeholders. Lowering a dividend would probably cause the price of the stock to fall just like RL. The corporation would be required to issue fiscal reports on a quarterly basis. The price of the stock would drop if profits were down from the previous quarter just like RL. CCP should just let the market take care of things. As far as voting stock is concerned there could either be voting and non-voting stock or the corporation would just have to maintain 51% stake. More likely they would need to maintain a much smaller stake as voter apathy permits control with a stake in the 20% range. In order to make the stock object work it might be able to function like a reusable neural implant. When you buy the stock object you would file it "read: implant it", and that would create a flag that would allow you a vote. Each one adds up and the voting mechanics would call that property to see how many votes you get. CCP shouldn't be too concerned about scams. Even with a ton of regulation RL still has Enron potential. Look what happened when that scandal broke. Everyone realized that a previously highly valued stock was worthless and the price plummeted. This is exactly what should have happened. As I said before, owning stock is risky. The value of the stock absolutely should not be directly tied to a corp wallet or asset valuation. This is because the amount of money in the wallet or assets do not represent future profitability, especially for a financial or trading corp. Future profitability is a factor that typically reflected in price. The stock is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay at a given moment. From many of the comments, it sounds like players think that stocks are bonds and the dividend is the interest. Stocks create a massive inflow of capital into the corp at the IPO, but after that, stock value increases help the stake holders in the corp only from the increased valuation if they sell stock, or if used by the corporation as assets that can be borrowed against. In conclusion, stocks are risky. Stocks are not bonds. Stocks should be market tradeable objects that are out of the control of the corp, unless they buy them back and go private. Market tradable objects would automatically enable charting. Lastly, voting stock could be be modeled after implants that would alter a "vote" property. I'm interested to hear what others think about this idea. This is much more in line with what I believe a stock market in Eve should look like. I would support something along these lines.
Ohne Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.04 22:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Riprion Edited by: Riprion on 14/07/2008 03:06:29 CCP shouldn't be too concerned about scams. Even with a ton of regulation RL still has Enron potential. Look what happened when that scandal broke. Everyone realized that a previously highly valued stock was worthless and the price plummeted. This is exactly what should have happened. As I said before, owning stock is risky. The value of the stock absolutely should not be directly tied to a corp wallet or asset valuation. This is because the amount of money in the wallet or assets do not represent future profitability, especially for a financial or trading corp. Future profitability is a factor that typically reflected in price. The stock is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay at a given moment. From many of the comments, it sounds like players think that stocks are bonds and the dividend is the interest. Stocks create a massive inflow of capital into the corp at the IPO, but after that, stock value increases help the stake holders in the corp only from the increased valuation if they sell stock, or if used by the corporation as assets that can be borrowed against. The difference from EVE and Enron is that the goverment deals with companys that go bankrupt and puts the people responsible behind bars. Unless theres something to prevent people from walking away with ISK that they got for shares, I dont belive there can be a succesful stock exchange. However If CCP would be willing to monitor this and deal with stock fraud differently than the regular scammers, there might be a chance.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.05 08:37:00 - [29] RL has most scams falling under effects baised legislation insted of intent baised. So someone who finds a loophole to scam can still get thrown in jail if they are working against the "Spirit of the law", even if he did not break any rules. Thats all because of all the scams Conrad Black did in the past due to the loopholes he found. How you going to add in effects baised legislation in eve? You cannot so all you can do is gives the share trading tools to the players and keep out of the scam side. Even something simple as doing a rights issue would create problems. Is the company creating new shares to scam people? Or are they creating new shares with intent of giving their customers them for free and so the shares become more liquid? I would like it to work but its just going to be a nestbed of scams. -- Billion Isk Mission
Seamus OReilly	Posted - 2008.08.05 14:32:00 - [30] Quote: Here is what I think should be done. Make stock a physical item like ammo. This would allow it to be openly traded on the market. The corp would produce "stock certificates" at the station where it is going to make it's IPO. The stock would be offered for sale and traders would buy that stock. Making it a market tradeable object would also provide basic charts that traders could use to work the market. I like this idea. There should also be some short-selling functionality. This would add a new dimension to inter-corp warfare. Of course, I'd like to see futures contracts with items, too.

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