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Upcoming Missile Launcher and MWD changes = BAD, What do you think?

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Hanilein	Posted - 2004.05.21 21:17:00 - [31] Edited by: Hanilein on 21/05/2004 21:19:30 Originally by: Nightfang Edited by: Nightfang on 21/05/2004 16:50:24 I fly nothing but frigates, and for the large part I think these are great changes. What I cannot stand for is that CCP doesn't seem eager to fix Cruise Missile agility before releasing this balancing to TQ. As it is now Cruise missiles have been given 50% more speed (close to 100% on some ships), which means that there is no way frigates will ever be able to escape. This would have been fine if they would have changed their agility, but they haven't. Frigates will suck now, for sure. Every BS able to mount 2 Cruise Missile launchers will mean 3+ km/s death to any frigate out there, 5+ km/s instadeath if it's a Raven... Right. The only "weapon" of a frig - pure speed - will be gone. and the second nerf is the signature radius. If someone with a turret shoots at you while you are at 7000m/s you will be hit. Frigs becomes obsolete...
ActiveX	Posted - 2004.05.21 21:20:00 - [32] You guys are talking like turning on the mwd is like turning on a huge neon barn that floats around yer lil ship... ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000
Falbala	Posted - 2004.05.21 21:21:00 - [33] Well, I guess I am going to stop selling MWDs and start producing missile launchers .
Shadowsword	Posted - 2004.05.21 21:52:00 - [34] Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/05/2004 21:55:05 From what I saw, there's a lot of whiners here claiming that frigates will be useless, and that everyone who agree with the proposed changes is a BS-only user... Well, it was previsible, but I have yet to see a coherent argument about the removal of Cruises from frigates. Yes, you'll have less firepower against a battleship, and you'll need more than 2 salvoes from 2 Kestrels to kill a Moa. Will any of you dare suggest that it's not the way it's supposed to be? For all your talk about balancing, you conveniently skip over the fact that the current missile frig VS turret frig balance is completely screwed up! Hopefully the changes will stop the frig VS frig combat from becoming a "first webbed=first dead" fest. About the MWD possible change, I'll remind you that Tomb said that MWDs were intended to approach a target of flee from it, and that AFs were intended to boost the speed of hte frig while orbiting. Edited for spelling.
Shadowsword	Posted - 2004.05.21 21:53:00 - [35] Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/05/2004 21:55:40 Double post
Bella Verde	Posted - 2004.05.21 21:57:00 - [36] The thing that needs to be done NOW is... FIX THE MISSILE AGILITY!!!
YuuKnow	Posted - 2004.05.21 22:02:00 - [37] I think all the changes are good. Except the cap relay stuff, that's just plain mean.
RagnarH	Posted - 2004.05.21 22:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Hanns The only people who will like this change are the people who only fly Battleships, and think Battleships should be the only thing used for combat, and belive me theres alot of you out there! Read the word B-A-T-T-L-E-S-H-I-P ever wondered what BATTLE mean it's for battle Stop the bull**, CCP makes the rule, CCP does what they want to do and u can't do a ** about that, and they dont give a flying fu.ck about you posting you on the forums This char is perm banned on forums :S
Demangel	Posted - 2004.05.21 22:23:00 - [39] I'd say CCP is making about 90% good changes, and 10% hasty/poor changes. I'll just list the bad things first: 1: Delaying the agility changes for missiles: If these don't come to TQ at the same time as the other changes, EVE is about to become a very flame filled place... 2: I agree the relays might need a nerf, but the shield boosting thing is kinda confusing at best, if it works the way it sounds, it's completely unimportant to most PVP pilots because they usualy don't bother carrying a shield booster in a frigate anyway. I only carry one for NPC combat for emergencies, or so I can MWD out of range and boost my shields and come back at full strength. Stacking bonus nerf is a better choice... 3: I ADORE being able to travel and fight in my interceptor at over 3KM/s, and I can completely understand that they are imbalanced for this (or there would be a real reason to use AB's instead). However, the method by which they are fixing this is silly and very arbitrary... It's like what my friend calls a Bandaid fix. IE not fixing the problem, just covering it up... I would much rather CCP had done any one of the following instead: 1: Made it so you lose a massive amount of agility when this thing is turned on (Ie you can still turn, but very sluggishly so orbiting at over 1KM/s below 10KM range is simply not going to happen smoothly. 2: Make it so you can't turn at all while active. 3: When you normal go to warp all your modules get interferance from the warp engines... But how come I can use them when my MWD is being used? Isn't it based on the same kind of energy/interferance? So how about you make it I can't activate offensive modules while I'm MWD'ing? MUCH better fix. As the MWD will be more useful as intended, quick range changes. 4: Similar to #1, drones should be changed at the same time this patch hits tranq. Why? I fear my own races ships will be overpowered due to heavies wiping out frigates and things. Thus suffer a bigger nerf than they deserve to quell flaming when the drones finaly get fixed. Overal however the intentions of the patch are sound, and while some people think the patch is going to ruin thier chances of winning combat, if you look at this from the big picture, EVERYBODY is both LOSING and Gaining. Anyway we'll see... I've got my fingers crossed that this patch finaly starts making EVE combat more interesting and less bizzare. Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
Vodalus	Posted - 2004.05.21 23:33:00 - [40] Well, this is going to pretty much ruin the game for me. It seems to be not much more than a PvP nerf. I think that CCP finally caved in to all the carebears and the whiners. I've seen these sort of drastic changes in PvP in other games, and it didn't seem to bring any of them down, but it did end up making a lot of people leave, simply because they got hosed by an ill-conceived attempt at "game balance". Anyways, Eve was really fun for me while it lasted. I'm sure it will live on, and I'm sure I'll find another game to play (or maybe I'll start doing something that doesn't require me to sit on my ass for hours at a time). -------------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: Oveur EVE is primarily a PVP game
Watanabe	Posted - 2004.05.22 00:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Hanilein Right. The only "weapon" of a frig - pure speed - will be gone. and the second nerf is the signature radius. If someone with a turret shoots at you while you are at 7000m/s you will be hit. Frigs becomes obsolete... Not really true, while a BS will be able to lock up a frig faster, large guns will be unable to track frigs (even more so than today). Drones are getting nerfed as well. Missile agility will suck at start (close range). Meaning you will need frigs to kill frigs, or mount cruiser/frig turrets on battleships.
Lallante	Posted - 2004.05.22 00:19:00 - [42] A lot of people seem to think Frigs will be easier to hit if they have a MWD on now. You clearly havnt played on chaos: Tracking is so bad now, that my apoc couldnt hit another apoc with transverse speed 137m/s (normal speed with no MWDs or Overdrives or anything) at its optimal range about 1/2 the time. Its ***** ridiculous. Even with this Sig radius boost for using a MWD, a frig WILL be unhittable if its going faster than 1km/sec. Trust me on this. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa**
Vaco	Posted - 2004.05.22 02:01:00 - [43] Edited by: Vaco on 22/05/2004 02:02:52 I think most frigate pilots are worried about cruise missiles. For those of you saying that this is a good change, I ask you: frigates are not intened to carry large missiles, and this I agree with, they lack slots when compared to a cruiser (I know this is a diff class ship), the only thing they can do is avoid missiles and turrets. They do that by going fast. If you make the frigs slower and having a large signature radius (which will effect hit %) how are they supposed to avoid the dammage that they cant tank? Ya sure they can run away but then they are not helping out in combat. Plus when these missiles have 40k+ range you have to run pretty damn far. I have played with ABs and I have not been able to go fast enough to outrun missiles. I think the mwd nerf will be the end of frigates in combat as electronic warfare platforms, or for any use.
Left	Posted - 2004.05.22 02:11:00 - [44] I am personally not worried about frigate damage output being nerfed via the removal of Cruise missles, but MWD nerfs... ack... Drones not being fixed yet, ack... Cruise missles hauling ass and not having crap agility yet... ack... Guess I better train this account to do something other than fly an interceptor. It was what was keeping a spark in the game for me.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.05.22 03:23:00 - [45] People are right they're not bad. Overall, they're a disaster. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
MrPops	Posted - 2004.05.22 06:13:00 - [46] TomB is suffering from a little bit of, shall we say, obsessive compulse disorder? He is stuck on a balancing and nerfing loop with no way of getting out. I believe the fever struck sometime before the end of beta. I hope he recovers soon so he ca go back to creating new and unique content for this wondeful game we play. "The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is." Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
Matrix Aran	Posted - 2004.05.22 08:07:00 - [47] The problem I see is that they are only releasing one half of the balance. If you wanna do it, take your time. I dont care if it take 3 years, get it all done at once. As for the changes, from what I see they will still keep everything in check, you'll just have to relearn how to fight, which in my opinion. Always fun to come on to a new map or setup for a game and watch everyone try to get a footing. Lets you see who are the skilled players, the ones that pick it up fast, and who are the thick players, the ones who take ages to learn a new trick.
Arnt	Posted - 2004.05.22 14:44:00 - [48] I got the feeling this mwd nerf will hurt short range weapons too, like blasters.
Eris Discordia	Posted - 2004.05.22 15:21:00 - [49] I think it belongs on the Ships & Modules forum I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage Mail [email protected] if you have any questions.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.05.22 16:13:00 - [50] This is a pretty horrible change to find out about after training for a god-damn month just to get at interceptors. If the developers are going to arbitrarily add major drawbacks to using certain ship types, could they maybe trim down the training time required for them to something more manageable than 28 days? Then you can play with balance all you want. That said, the MWD nerf itself is stupid - microwarps are an absolute and undeniable necessity for frigates which already have to deal with enough to be combat-viable; making them light up like a christmas tree while moving at high velocity is pretty unrealistic and probably an ill-thought stopgap measure. A better nerf might be a simple stacking nerf against dual microwarps, so that a second MWD gives like, 25% the benefit of the first. Whatever.
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.05.22 16:35:00 - [51] Hmm, not really. The way speed and SigRadius interact essentially means that a MWDing frigate is as easy to hit with these changes as it was before the changes. Meaning not at all. Travelling with 1xMWDspeed with the SigRadius changes means that even small guns can't hit your orbitting frigate. Kinda rough, as that's the only thing your malediction is actually gonna be intercepting frigs with [Heterocephalus glaber]
Ithildin	Posted - 2004.05.22 16:42:00 - [52] Yes, but what is the effect on the chance of scoring a hit for the ships the frigate is: 1. ignoring because it is orbitting it's target? 2. running away from? That the MWD will have no effect in a 1v1 situation, for the one getting attacked by the frigate, is clear. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.05.22 16:43:00 - [53] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/05/2004 16:44:43 Discorporation: Other peoples practical experience disagrees with yours. The thing is, even if that was true, if they can lock you quickly then can hit you with cruise missiles pretty easily in any case. Which is kinda fatal for a frigate. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
QuantumX	Posted - 2004.05.22 16:57:00 - [54] MWD nerf is bad, if it make you easier to hit, although I though signiture radius only allowed for quicker locking. And tracking was required for hitting fast moving objects. As for cruise on smaller ships, cool i can live with this. BUT i do not believe High Damage, wepaons like Torps and Cruise should not have the ability to destroy a friagte. they should not have the agility. Although they could have the speed. As long as high training missile skills add a good damage bonus to missiles, then spammed cruisers etc with rockets and light missiles from a fig should be ok. As the DOT wont be too bad. Anyway, I think CCP will be making a grave mistake to take away a frigates advantages and not balance those losses out buy allowing them the ability to avoid BS fire. Unless the BS are setup to kill frigs of course. ========================== I came i saw i got blown up!
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.05.22 17:49:00 - [55] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/05/2004 16:44:43 Discorporation: Other peoples practical experience disagrees with yours. The thing is, even if that was true, if they can lock you quickly then can hit you with cruise missiles pretty easily in any case. Which is kinda fatal for a frigate. Locking times are irrelevant, really.The only thing that matters to me, is wether my opponent can hit me. Don't really care about the time it takes for him to lock me [Heterocephalus glaber]
FireLord	Posted - 2004.05.22 18:22:00 - [56] the only thing thats 'Really Bad' (tm)about all of the missile changes is the fact that the changes to missle speeds (note i am not talking about what ships can fire them) has come without the changes to missile physics. The sheer speed of cruise missiles is going to mean any frigate, interceptor, and even any fastmoving cruiser that may have had a chance to dodge them if the changes to physics had been implemented, are going to get blown apart with ease. This is just sheer lunacy imo, i seriously think that ccp need to keep the speed of the heavy and cruise missiles down until the missile tracking is sorted.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.05.22 18:31:00 - [57] Discorporation - If they can lock you quicker, they can use cruise missiles quicker. So MWD's might well be a liability given you decelerate just before jumping (quick cruises catch up with you) "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
John McCreedy	Posted - 2004.05.22 18:58:00 - [58] Well I've been spamming the forum with my opinions and as you probably know, I consider it a terrible idea. It will kill mixed fleets, relegate other ship classes as stepping stones to a BS, make life immensley difficult for small, up and comming PvP corps whose members don't all have BS. The drones staying as they are means Drone Carriers rule supreame (in Cruiser Class). The RoF on the Raven (Cruise Launcher at a maximum attainable RoF of 22.5 secs) means it's gimped at long range. I could live with the changes of Launchers if Frigates could still fire Heavy Missiles and Cruisers fire Cruise. As it stands and given the timeframe for its implementation, I think they are the worst changes I've seen sice I started. Make a difference
Hanns	Posted - 2004.05.22 21:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Discorporation Locking times are irrelevant, really.The only thing that matters to me, is wether my opponent can hit me. Don't really care about the time it takes for him to lock me Only someone who dosent fly interceptors much, thinks locking times are irrelivant, Interceptors make Very good scouts with MWD, being able to move in and out of Camped Gates/stations without even being locked, but ad 500 to your sig, and even a scorp can lock you in a matter of seconds and have you warp scrambled and webbed before u can say "ohh sh1t" When Speed is removed as your primary defence, your interceptor goes boom boom! Now tell me locking times are irrelevant
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.05.22 21:33:00 - [60] Well - it lets any old BS with say a single sensor booster to to lock you very quickly, as opposed to the more extreme setups needed for that atm "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"

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