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Xavier Cardde
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Posted - 2004.05.21 16:32:00 -
[1]
Why is this anyway that they figure they should put in chnages 90% of the people absolutely hate?
Missiles,MWD AND Interceptors are now useless
Great job CCP thumbs up for screwing over your own game.
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Death Siren
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Posted - 2004.05.21 16:55:00 -
[2]
What exactly do you hate about them?
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mahhy
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Posted - 2004.05.21 17:00:00 -
[3]
Ever hear about a vocal minority? Its usually the case when people don't like things that they are the more vocal ones, compared to those who do. Way of the world it seems... assuming 90% of the players don't like the patch is a bit much, since I'd be willing to bet maybe 10% of the playerbase even reads the forums 
I'm just gunna wait and see how it all works out. If its a complete disaster then its time to yell and scream 
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Death Siren
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Posted - 2004.05.21 17:02:00 -
[4]
I honsetly have no idea what they are doing to the MWD's.
As far as the missiles and interceptors go I like the new changes. Trully the Interceptors do not need cruise missiles to be effective in battle. If you ever encountered one flown by a good pilot you would know that.
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fluffle
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Posted - 2004.05.21 17:09:00 -
[5]
... it'd be nice to survive long enough to *have* a good battle though.
currently the missile changes mean that cruise have the same agility as before but now travel at 5.5km/sec, which makes them rather painful versus frigates and interceptors :/
--
Go Here if my sig looks grey, and next time use a good browser.
This is the way things have to be, the wise men wisely said.
So we believed... but some did not,
and though we never knew, the wise men wisely had them shot. |
Selak Zorander
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Posted - 2004.05.21 17:30:00 -
[6]
I have been following these threads because i like to keep informed but a few things I would like to dispute mentioned so far:
1. As also mentioned above, I doubt 100% of the player base reads these forums, and I see a vocal minority that continually posts (they have almost every other post in the thread) they hate the patch/changes whatever and everyone else is optimstics or wants to see it before they judge it.
2. So far as I understand, larger missiles (torps and cruise) are not getting a speed increase yet. the Dev Blog only says the lighter or smaller missiles are getting a significant speed increase. To me that refers to Rockets, Lights and maybe Heavies.
I am part of the non-vocal majority, why because I do not have a problem with the changes and no I do not fly a Battleship. I mostly fly a low tech cruiser or frigates. I look forward to being of more use than just cannon fodder in a fight though I have purposely avoided fights because I know that currently that is all I am. Another target to send one round at so that I blow up and don't have to be worried about again, but then that is the life of a relatively new player that have barely a million skill points.
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wamingo
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Posted - 2004.05.21 17:38:00 -
[7]
people who do not like these changes are people who dislikes changes alltogether, and if not, it's because they're profitting greatly and perhaps even unevenly from the current state in either case they need to be completely and utterly ignored.
The changes in the dev blog are all very positive and a great step towards proper balance.
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Drakxter
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Posted - 2004.05.21 18:10:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Drakxter on 21/05/2004 18:13:04
Just how did you get to the 90% of us hates them?
I love most of them, just af few I find strange, mostly the one about the cap relay and the strange -10% to shield boosting modules.. Why should only those that use shield boosting have drawbacks to using them?
I say keep the -25% to shield recharge and then also keep the -10% (btw I use shield boosters, so I aint helping me self here  )
-------------
Most tired of thing atm:
- Mods on the forum saying: "Please use the bug report page to submit bugs, the forum is not the place to post them." and then closing a topic. |
Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.05.21 18:29:00 -
[9]
There's one change I'm glad about and that's the cruise missile nerf. Not that I think they should be kept from cruiers (I don't) but frigate dogfights are pretty stupid right now, as it's essentially a test to see who can fire and outrun the most cruise missiles. The skill set involved is pretty limited, and it isn't NEARLY as much fun as frigate fight without big missiles and drones.
CCP had to do this or there'd be very little interest in any interceptor other than the crow. I'm *pretty sure* CCP didn't invent interceptors expecting that a solo Crow would be able, fairly easily, to destroy any other frigate or cruiser in the game :/
BW
 Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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grappler
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Posted - 2004.05.21 23:32:00 -
[10]
seems to me the only people really upset about the change in missles is the people who were basically using them as an exploit, which is basically what it is. there is no reason that 2 caracels should be able to take out a battleship, that pretty much takes all use for battle ships out of the game accept for the cases where you can just get far far away and blast stuff. why should you be able to put the sstrongest missles available in the game on a cruiser? you cant get a set up on a cruiser that has a large tachyone laser in there so if you cant equipe one cruiser with the strongest laser around why should you be able to equip one withthe strongest missle around? I really wish that people wouldnt get mad. you found a loophole in something and now its being fixed so deal with it
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sableye
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Posted - 2004.05.21 23:45:00 -
[11]
I must admit I like the changes I think it'll bring better balance especially between missle frigs and non missle frigs, I'll feel the hurt as well there's nothing more I like doing than hunting npc's with my kestral but I'll just have to adapt by getting a cruiser missle boat.
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Katt
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Posted - 2004.05.22 01:46:00 -
[12]
Amusing how everyone here likes them. Add me to the list of pro-changes-people.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.22 02:46:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/05/2004 02:47:11
It's been about 50/50, which is amazingly negative on the scale of things.
(given the number of people who haven't examined the changes and who just trust CCP, the general abscence of many people because they don't feel CCP is listening - not that *I* do, but I feel it's important to argue the points anyway...)
I don't dislike change. I don't "exploit" missiles
To those who think I do, well - you're wrong. I want a fun, balanced game. And the current balance is almost there. So of course CCP are changing everything.
Selak Zorander, the speed changes are in. Physics ones are not.
As for interceptors, gun ones now rule. This is pretty much unquestionable - they do 5x and more the damage of missile ones, and can allways survive the initial light missile salvo. So missile interceptors are now utterly pointless.
Frigates in general are until misile physics change, and even then webs need to chage radically or frigates will STILL be useless.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Andrew Jade
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Posted - 2004.05.22 08:48:00 -
[14]
The whole point about the vocal minority is the correct one. In every society people who are happy and content usually stay quiet and enjoy the system. Any changes that come they learn to adapt and change. As people have said there is a very load vocal minority who kick up a stink and try to force their way. Just look at all the pirate chars etc who constantly whine.
The changes present a crucial element in making the use of smaller vessels more important and with Shiva we will be seeing the elements for more experianced players to have a good fight aswell. The introduction of battlecruisers and dreadnoughts will mean that Old players will have their big bad asss ships while newer players can actually take part in PVP without having to fly a battleship or an elite frigate.
As someone said in another thread, 'people whined when the first MWD nerf came in, you dont want that the way it was, people whined at the combat changes with castor, there isnt anyone who wants the old system back'
I seriously hope CCP ignores the vocal minority and goes by the amount of silence from the rest of the populace. The majority of players are quiet happy learning new aspects and adapting to changes.
-AJ-
WTB: Large faction smartbomb with good range. Top isk paid.
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Jim Steele
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Posted - 2004.05.22 10:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: fluffle
... it'd be nice to survive long enough to *have* a good battle though.
currently the missile changes mean that cruise have the same agility as before but now travel at 5.5km/sec, which makes them rather painful versus frigates and interceptors :/
They are updating the whole missile physics system, but this wont happen in the next patch unfortunately.. i think they are making cruises less agile, i.e. if a target is close they fly past and cant turn quick enough to track it, would end up on an eccentric, eliptical orbit flying out of control whereas at long range against big targets they would have longer time to turn and thus be more acurate.
Death to the Galante |
Duke Droklar
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Posted - 2004.05.22 12:03:00 -
[16]
I dont have a problem with frigs not using cruise. However with the speed increase of missiles frigates are going to be nearly useless.
Right now frigates can take on a BS that IS NOT properly equiped for solo travel. A properly equiped BS can still take on 5+ frigs and kill them all if the pilot knows what he's doing. IF he doesnt he has no business traveling solo without a scout. In RL one fighter aircraft can take out the largest of fleet vessels. It's only due to mixed fleets that they can protect themselves and the current state of the game is a mirror reflection of this modern warfare fact.
IMO CCP needs to only make small balancing adjustments rather then major swings in a game that is already nearly perfectly balanced.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.22 13:56:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/05/2004 13:58:11
Andrew Jade,
It's not the pirates who are whining. It's, frankly, a good deal of the more experienced players.
I don't think ANY of the major changes should go in.
But, practically, CCP seem to be determined that they do. And some of them will be a disaster - without the missile physics changes, cruise missiles *doom* any frigate which flys anywhere near a BS.
(and that's just ONE of many things I could say)
This...isn't much fun, no? I honestly believe that that kind of thing will drive away players if it persists for more than a few days.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Malius
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Posted - 2004.05.22 15:35:00 -
[18]
I don't see anything good from all these changes.
They should just go for the simple approach and remove all this other garbage that is making everyone so unhappy. Really, with every tweak it seems to get uglier and uglier. So why not:
1. Remove wrecking shots from misses.
2. Fix drones so they only hit within their range.
3. Remove cruise missles from standard launchers (so they still fire heavy).
That's all that's needed at first, then some fine tuning can be done. They seem to be taking the sledgehammer approach though to tuning combat.
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Andrew Jade
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Posted - 2004.05.22 16:12:00 -
[19]
I did not say it was pirates whining about these changes mearly mentioning it in passing.
As for the changes, yes I agree that the missile physics need to be changed along with the speed. However Im saying that the vast majority of people dont hate these changes that are being proposed. Most are fine with them and will simply adapt easilly.
CCP have not screwed anything over they are simply making the process that was started with the castor changes to combat complete. Any experiance PVper will adapt easilly. I myself have been PVPing for around 9 months now and Im looking foward to the changes.
Change is something which is good and something which anyone who claims to be a top class PVP player should and will be able to adapt to easilly.
-AJ-
WTB: Large faction smartbomb with good range. Top isk paid.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.22 16:47:00 -
[20]
Malius - that and a few other minor tweaks* are all that is needed for the current situation IMO as well.
(*Like altering the Dom bonuses to something more sensible and making torpedos more worthwhile, as well as cutting missile production costs at least a little)
Andrew Jade - yea, the TOP class pilots will adjust. Shame about the majority of players, eh?
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.22 17:46:00 -
[21]
I like the changes.
I like them even more because it'll seriously screw with Omega Corp's tactics.
Which is always a good thing
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Andrew Jade
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Posted - 2004.05.22 18:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Malius - that and a few other minor tweaks* are all that is needed for the current situation IMO as well.
(*Like altering the Dom bonuses to something more sensible and making torpedos more worthwhile, as well as cutting missile production costs at least a little)
Andrew Jade - yea, the TOP class pilots will adjust. Shame about the majority of players, eh?
The average player will aslo adapt easilly. looking on the forums it seems that alot of the 'top' players are also the ones making the most fuss. So yes even those who complain will adapt, but i expetc most will aswell.
I dont see why they wouldn't.
I also agree with Josh 
-Aj-
WTB: Large faction smartbomb with good range. Top isk paid.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.05.22 18:28:00 -
[23]
You'll just have to trust CCP to truly balance things out - they haven't worked as hard as they have to screw it up.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Johnson McCrae
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Posted - 2004.05.22 19:55:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Johnson McCrae on 22/05/2004 20:02:13
The game is for those who do the following:
Learn, Adapt, Conquer
The rest are the sheep we prey upon. 
edit: always be sure you use the RIGHT word, (pray, prey, sounds same, but not) 
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya!
[ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.22 20:32:00 -
[25]
Well in that case why are they doing this in the first place? There is no overiding problem I can see what would make them to it, Joshua.
And no, I *DON'T* trust devs to understand what's going on in their own game. Take UO and EQ as examples of why this is necessary.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Duke Droklar
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Posted - 2004.05.22 20:48:00 -
[26]
Wrong Josh. Omega Corp has adapted to every change since beta 4 and has always kicked arse and will continue to do so. It is those that have been unable to adapt to the current state of the game that are whining about changing it.
Regardless of the fact that we will adapt, the simple fact is that the current state of the game is balanced and is the most fun we've had since beta. It requires a mixed fleet which is something many do not want. They prefer the Battleship blob bore wars of old.
With these changes it will make the frigs nearly useless which means that a good portion of the community will not be able to participate competitively in fleet battles. Newer players will be left out of the wars for as long as it takes them to get into BS's as that will be the only thing worth while in combat. Small corps will be at the mercy of corps with BS's.
I'm curious what the pro-change group thinks is so out of balance currently that it should require such an overwhelming nerf to frigate combat.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.05.22 21:19:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Xelios on 22/05/2004 21:28:24
How about being able to own anything in your path with a fleet of 40 ships that's worth less than a well outfitted interceptor? Do you honestly believe that's balanced? Or are you just whining that you'll no longer be able to gank battleships with cruise frigates?
A frigate will still be helpful in fleets after the patch, as will cruisers. They won't be AS helpful as they are now, but there's no reason they should be. Frigates launching cruise missiles has been rediculous, ever since beta I've wanted to see it changed as it would have fixed many problems before they even arose. It seems like you want any noob in a frigate to be as useful in a battle as a guy in a battleship with 10 million sp... I'm sorry that's not going to happen. Frigates have their role, and while they may not be terribly useful in a battleship fleet war they damn well shouldn't be, they cost 500x less than a battleship. Frankly the fact that 4 frigates can destroy a battleship is apalling and I am really amazed that you consider that to be balanced gameplay.
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Roko
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Posted - 2004.05.23 01:19:00 -
[28]
I agree with Xelios.
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croc-o bananes
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Mortuus
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Posted - 2004.05.23 05:11:00 -
[29]
I have to say I love the changes. I mainly fly a Rifter and I have to say these sound like fun. The MWD was never supposed to render a ship invulnerable to anything with a web and a frigate has no business with cruisemissles even though I do use them (Not going to gimp myself in a fight).
But honestly, I think a lot of the people complaining are upset because these changes force them to rethink combat, I have a corp member complaining that her Raven will be useless now. Hell that thing can still cram 6 cruise launchers on there no problem. So its no longer the premier damage dealer AND tank, sorry.
Missles still work, they just do the DPS for their respective ship classes that is now more in line with the guns they carry as well. With damage mods and skills for missles they should be fairly usefull.
MWD, its made to make travel and escape easier. Well now it will do that without making a frigate impossible to hit. Don't forget with the new tracking you'll be hard enough to hit anyway.
And how is an interceptor now worthless? I'd think that with the extra speed, shielding, and slots its now a much better frigate killer than before, which is what they are for. No longer do you need to worry about another frigate webbing you and launching 2 cruise missles up your rear. Fight might take more than a quick web finger and mashing the launcher button.
Anyway, good job with this game CCP, don't give in to the whiners, thats the doom of every MMORPG. Great changes coming up that look to improve the game as a whole for a long time to come.
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Andrew Jade
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Posted - 2004.05.23 05:44:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Andrew Jade on 23/05/2004 05:46:44
Quote:
I'm curious what the pro-change group thinks is so out of balance currently that it should require such an overwhelming nerf to frigate combat.
Cruise missiles are battleship based 'mother of all missiles' (paradise description) and are meant for long range battleship to battleship combat. They are meant to be fast and hard hitting but not massivly agile.
That in mind, fitting cruiser missiles on a frigate in many respects is like fitting a 1400mm cannon on a frigate. You talk about balanced fleets which is fair to a degree but 20+ frigates webbying, warp jamming, damning a BS then frying it with 100+ cruise missiles is not balanced. Dont get me wrong I have always surport mixed fleets and hate BS w***es. However it doesnt fit in with the game. It allows for fleets of frigates to take on fleets of Bs's which wasnt meant to happen.
With the changes (when they sort the missiles physics aswell as) it will mean that frigates are still effective, with the DOT of the new missiles coupled with the DOT of the current turrets then it will still work. The gallente frigates hit for 50 damage per second using just guns so you cant say that a missile nerf is making frigates useless.
As for intereceptors and people whining, they were never meant to be cruise missile using/spamming ships. Look at the name their sole purpous is to intercept other 'bomber' frigates. Thats why they have amazing tracking.
With the introduction of the new bomber class and black opsfrigates the class will still be as effective at BS ganking as it is. However it will fit in far better with the current game world.
Duke for someone who apparently has adapted well you do seem blind to certain aswpects of the changes.
And in case your wondering I fly a Rifter and the changes should be very interesting.
-AJ-
WTB: Large faction smartbomb with good range. Top isk paid.
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