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Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:28:00 - [1] I like using small craft. The following two ships I've used extensively in combat and they work quite well in their intended role- killing interceptors or other t1 frigates: Destroyer: High- Prototype Cloak, 7 x 250mm II Med- MWD II, SB II, TP II Low- Gyro II, Tracking Enhancer II Rigs- Mestasis I, Collision Accelerator I Jaguar: High- 250mm II x 3, arbalest standard launcher Med- AB II, TP II, Named Medium Shield Extender, Kinetic shield deflection amp II Low- Micro K-exhaust core augmentation, overdrive injector II, gyro II Rigs- Kinetic and Explosive shield resist Tracking Guide stats: Shooting at a crow w/ a transversal velocity of 13km/s and chances of hitting. No target painter used: 10km 15km 20km 25km 30km Dessy 19% 45% 62% 55% 33% Jag 0% 3% 19% 21% 15% Now with a TP: 10km 20km 30km 40km 50km Dessy 38% 62% 76% 64% 38% Jag 5% 21% 38% 32% 20% Keep in mind that this is with the worst possible speed/ situation of the target. Jag DOES shoot more often and has a much better tank. It would be nice if it also got a tracking boost. It eats much slower interceptors. Now the following setup is for a Muninn that I'm mulling down the road. I have not flown an assault ship but I'm wondering if this would work in a fleet role. Feedback please: Muninn: High - 650mm II x 6, Arbalest Assault Launcher x 2 Med - Large Named Shield Extender, Named MWD, TP II Low - Gyro II x 3, Tracking Enhancer II, Damage Control II Rigs - Mestasis Rigs II x 2, (tracking enhancers- cost 60 mill a piece) Stats off of Tracking Guide shooting at a vagabond w/ 7km/s transversal speed: 10km 20km 30km 40km 50km 60km 70km W/O TP- 8% 60% 80% 87% 70% 42% 18% With TP- 30% 77% 89% 92% 74% 45% 18% I call this a "gunslinger" setup. Going for tracking rather then range. To the point- has anyone tried this in combat to see if it's feasible? It's obviously not a solo ship. But it COULD hit a nano ship quite easily.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:32:00 - [2] While the Destroyer SEEMS like a perfect ship for this function you have to realize some simple facts of life: 1) You wield less firepower than a nano boat 2) A nano boat can slow down and take your dessy apart in short order. Is it possible to make the ship work in such a role? Probably but I'd expect high attrition rates among the destroyer pilots. Luckily you can lose hundreds of dessys per nano ship lost and still come out ahead in terms of isk lost.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:35:00 - [3] About that muninn. Why? Couldn't they just warp off? I would think the huginn/rapier would render a muninn pretty much obsolete for that kind of thing considering afterwards they won't have any speed left to avoid you. That and you wouldn't have to worry about them just MWDing out of range. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:41:00 - [4] Originally by: Derek Sigres While the Destroyer SEEMS like a perfect ship for this function you have to realize some simple facts of life: 1) You wield less firepower than a nano boat 2) A nano boat can slow down and take your dessy apart in short order. Is it possible to make the ship work in such a role? Probably but I'd expect high attrition rates among the destroyer pilots. Luckily you can lose hundreds of dessys per nano ship lost and still come out ahead in terms of isk lost. It depends on what type of nano boat you have in mind. I've killed interceptors in this. I've rarely lost in one vs one or even in three vs one. A ship bigger then an inty? I'm warping out.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:42:00 - [5] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 13/07/2008 01:36:02 About that muninn. Why? Couldn't they just warp off? I would think the huginn/rapier would render a muninn pretty much obsolete for that kind of thing. I fly a huginn, and that thing can rip ceptors by the dozen if you fit it right. That and you wouldn't have to worry about them just MWDing out of range. I was more thinking anti-vagabond then anti-interceptor. I can shoot farther then a rapier can web. I view the Muninn as a possible nano solution......
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:43:00 - [6] Edited by: DubanFP on 13/07/2008 01:44:51 Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Originally by: Derek Sigres While the Destroyer SEEMS like a perfect ship for this function you have to realize some simple facts of life: 1) You wield less firepower than a nano boat 2) A nano boat can slow down and take your dessy apart in short order. Is it possible to make the ship work in such a role? Probably but I'd expect high attrition rates among the destroyer pilots. Luckily you can lose hundreds of dessys per nano ship lost and still come out ahead in terms of isk lost. It depends on what type of nano boat you have in mind. I've killed interceptors in this. I've rarely lost in one vs one or even in three vs one. A ship bigger then an inty? I'm warping out. Also I'd like to say "why tracking enhancers?". Tracking computer with script = 60%+ tracking. Tracking enhancer = 9.5% tracking bonus. To add to the above comment. A vagabond is just going to run. A huginn will obliterate the vagabond, or at least render him vulnerable to friendlies. _______________ CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Carth Reynolds	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 13/07/2008 01:36:02 About that muninn. Why? Couldn't they just warp off? I would think the huginn/rapier would render a muninn pretty much obsolete for that kind of thing. I fly a huginn, and that thing can rip ceptors by the dozen if you fit it right. That and you wouldn't have to worry about them just MWDing out of range. I was more thinking anti-vagabond then anti-interceptor. I can shoot farther then a rapier can web. I view the Muninn as a possible nano solution...... Anti inty roles are done better by sniper ships simply because they are fair enough away to be fairly insulated from the fighting, at least in my opinion. Shoehorning a dessy into an anti-vaga style role is juuuuust shy of suicide. The vaga has more EHP and more firepower, and once the vaga pilot realizes he's getting pegged handily he will either slow down and unleash his superior firepower or he's just going to run. I like the idea of the dessy being used in such a role but I think you'll find that BC's are probably the better option for the task. Greater EHP, and pulse lasers and autocannons can handily track a great many of the nano ships with ease (If you're caldari or gallente you'll probably be relying on precision missiles and drones). Plus, even a fairly lightly gunned BC still outguns many of the T2 ships, and it doesn't tank much firepower at all to worry a nano boat if you can actually connect with regularity.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:51:00 - [8] TP is better then a tracking computer. And the easiest answer is b/c it fits.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:56:00 - [9] The only acceptable Muninn fit: [Muninn, Gatecamp Muninn] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M Standard Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Standard Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Targeting System Subcontroller I Targeting System Subcontroller I Warrior II x5 If you can somehow justify to yourself the lack of a MWD, a third sensor booster would work wonders. :) -Liang -- The Universe has a really good firewall. Why else do you think nobody has hacked the Universe yet?
P'uck	Posted - 2008.07.13 05:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Liang Nuren If you can somehow justify to yourself the lack of a MWD, a third sensor booster would work wonders. :) imho on a muninn the DCUII doesn't do that much, and a sigamp II isn't that bad...
Gor Kraon Minmatar Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.13 05:43:00 - [11] Can also leave the missiles off and put drone links on. Lets you assist drones from 70+km out without issues.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.07.13 05:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Gor Kraon Can also leave the missiles off and put drone links on. Lets you assist drones from 70+km out without issues. The Muninn has no business being 70km from the action. Load RF EMP and get up there on the gate like a man. :P -Liang -- The Universe has a really good firewall. Why else do you think nobody has hacked the Universe yet?
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.07.13 06:14:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Gor Kraon Can also leave the missiles off and put drone links on. Lets you assist drones from 70+km out without issues. The Muninn has no business being 70km from the action. Load RF EMP and get up there on the gate like a man. :P -Liang My favorite part was the skill remark. That made my day
Gor Kraon Minmatar Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.13 08:08:00 - [14] Ah, the might as well fly a cane setup =D.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.07.13 09:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 13/07/2008 01:36:02 About that muninn. Why? Couldn't they just warp off? I would think the huginn/rapier would render a muninn pretty much obsolete for that kind of thing. I fly a huginn, and that thing can rip ceptors by the dozen if you fit it right. That and you wouldn't have to worry about them just MWDing out of range. I was more thinking anti-vagabond then anti-interceptor. I can shoot farther then a rapier can web. I view the Muninn as a possible nano solution...... Rapier can web up to 100km+...
Horizon Taker Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.07.13 10:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 13/07/2008 01:36:02 About that muninn. Why? Couldn't they just warp off? I would think the huginn/rapier would render a muninn pretty much obsolete for that kind of thing. I fly a huginn, and that thing can rip ceptors by the dozen if you fit it right. That and you wouldn't have to worry about them just MWDing out of range. I was more thinking anti-vagabond then anti-interceptor. I can shoot farther then a rapier can web. I view the Muninn as a possible nano solution...... Rapier can web up to 100km+... Yes, if they overheat a domination webber with max skills...
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.07.14 12:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Horizon Taker Yes, if they overheat a domination webber with max skills... Actually there's a possibility to put an officer web on rapier and web targets from horrible distances, like 150 km+. The webbing factor is low OFC, and its a joke fit really, but it is there if anyone wants to try it :) --- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again!
Dotard Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.14 13:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Liang Nuren The Muninn has no business being 70km from the action. Load RF EMP and get up there on the gate like a man. :P -Liang Why would you fit Artillery if you are NOT going to be at a distance? For up close and personal, would not A/Cs be the better choice? --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Crellion Art of War	Posted - 2008.07.14 13:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen Originally by: Horizon Taker Yes, if they overheat a domination webber with max skills... Actually there's a possibility to put an officer web on rapier and web targets from horrible distances, like 150 km+. The webbing factor is low OFC, and its a joke fit really, but it is there if anyone wants to try it :) Woot! You mean the Wotan(Worban Groblar Hakim cant remember) modified web and 5xrcuII set up with a rack of rocket launchers? :D Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Mamarto Minmatar Dead Pirates' Society Valhalla Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.14 13:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen Originally by: Horizon Taker Yes, if they overheat a domination webber with max skills... Actually there's a possibility to put an officer web on rapier and web targets from horrible distances, like 150 km+. The webbing factor is low OFC, and its a joke fit really, but it is there if anyone wants to try it :) Woot! You mean the Wotan(Worban Groblar Hakim cant remember) modified web and 5xrcuII set up with a rack of rocket launchers? :D It's webalicious!
Caffeine Junkie 2 Guys In Motherships	Posted - 2008.07.14 13:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Mamarto Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen Originally by: Horizon Taker Yes, if they overheat a domination webber with max skills... Actually there's a possibility to put an officer web on rapier and web targets from horrible distances, like 150 km+. The webbing factor is low OFC, and its a joke fit really, but it is there if anyone wants to try it :) Woot! You mean the Wotan(Worban Groblar Hakim cant remember) modified web and 5xrcuII set up with a rack of rocket launchers? :D It's webalicious! And you lock the guy 210km out.....how? There are many places in this game where battles are fought and won, EFT isn't one of them.
MaidMarion Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.14 14:55:00 - [22] Edited by: MaidMarion on 14/07/2008 14:55:37 I think the point of the setup was simply to show the max range of the various webbers with maxed out skills with cs support.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.07.14 15:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Dotard Why would you fit Artillery if you are NOT going to be at a distance? For up close and personal, would not A/Cs be the better choice? Because you can lock things before they get moving, and ocassionally instapop a friggie/inty. Really it's for killmail whoring... -Liang -- The Universe has a really good firewall. Why else do you think nobody has hacked the Universe yet?
Patri Andari Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.14 16:30:00 - [24] Sorry to see your thread get hijacked in this manner m8. Especially since I have had similar questions regarding the effectiveness of painters, tracking mods and rigs as a counter to nano, both against interceptors and nano HACs. I have little experience in this area and, as you see happening, any serious attempt to propose an alternative to the known anti-nano tactics on the boards gets trolled at worst or at least diverted from the original discussion. The problem with nano ships is twofold. 1. They can break off from most engagements when the odds are not in their favor. 2. When they engage, or at least enter weapon range, their speed makes them take little or no damage. If I am understanding most of the responses so far they seem to be saying the following: Rapier with damage support is the best option for solving both problems above. I got it. Let's just say for argument's sake that using a Minmatar Recon ship would be optimal in *every* situation involving countering a nano HAC and put that response to rest. Now on to the OP. Could a Muninn fitted as in the OP, or some variation there of, be effective in putting some serious hurt on a nano HAC that chooses to engage? This seems to be being offered as an alternative that only addresses a solution to problem 2 above. Notice how he does not have tackle gear in this setup? Obviously this is for gang work. It is assumed that the Muninn described above has no chance of keeping a Vagabond that does not want to continue the fight from leaving in a 1v1. I think we can consider that issue solved. Has anyone tried this or any similar setup that utilizes pimped out tracking and target painting in anti-nano work? What has been your observations? I apologize for stepping on your well laid out post Zarnak but I have an interest in keeping it on track and would really love to hear from those with experience. If you use this setup I would love to hear how well the setup worked for you. Patri P.S. Zarnak could you consider the effects of being boosted by an oneiros or a scimitar with their tracking link bonuses in your equations? I suck at maths but I am also unsure how tracking links are penalized for stacking. A fool usually thinks he is a genius
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.07.14 16:45:00 - [25] Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 14/07/2008 16:45:57 Patri sums up my original goal quite nicely. I have used the jaguar and dessy setups very successfully against interceptors. They usually run off after getting knocked into structure but I do have several kills from pilots who delayed a few seconds from getting out of range. The thread was originally this: these small craft handily deal with small nano--- would a similar cruiser sized ship also be capable of dealing w/ a nano HAC all things being equal? I had given up on the thread after responses of "destroyers can't go after vagabonds" and "the Muninn needs range to kill inties." I'm at a crossroads on what to train in this character. I haven't tried the Muninn. It's alpha is considerable. It even has a higher DPS then a pure nano Vaga. It's shield buffer is less. Could it work? The numbers suggest I can hit it at any range at any speed and hit it HARD. Sensor boosting would always be a plus and give more options. Target painters are proven to increase the chance to hit by 15% or more up to optimal. Tested in combat. Proven. I have the kill mail on a polycarboned/ faction fit crow, stiletto, and hyena to prove it. And quite a few more vanilla setups.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.07.14 16:53:00 - [26] I can run the numbers on tracking assistance when I get home. On something like the Muninn it might be an overkill. Assuming the vaga is orbiting at 10km at 7km/s at the worst possible angle you still have a 30% chance to hit it with the above setup. Most won't be orbiting that close at that speed.
Patri Andari Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.14 17:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf I can run the numbers on tracking assistance when I get home. On something like the Muninn it might be an overkill. Assuming the vaga is orbiting at 10km at 7km/s at the worst possible angle you still have a 30% chance to hit it with the above setup. Most won't be orbiting that close at that speed. I look forward to it m8. Patri A fool usually thinks he is a genius
Megan Maynard Minmatar Heretic Militia	Posted - 2008.07.14 19:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Liang Nuren The only acceptable Muninn fit: [Muninn, Gatecamp Muninn] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M Standard Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Standard Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile Targeting System Subcontroller I Targeting System Subcontroller I Warrior II x5 If you can somehow justify to yourself the lack of a MWD, a third sensor booster would work wonders. :) -Liang With gang support, like a tackle and web, AC munnin is straight up nasty. NASTY.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.07.14 19:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Megan Maynard With gang support, like a tackle and web, AC munnin is straight up nasty. NASTY. Your AC Muninn will put the inty into 3/4's shields at 15km, while I instapop it. I know which one I'll take. TBFH, I think you're crazy for using an AC Muninn. You're wasting the bonuses on the ship. I've used one... the Vaga does it better. -Liang -- The Universe has a really good firewall. Why else do you think nobody has hacked the Universe yet?
Megan Maynard Minmatar Heretic Militia	Posted - 2008.07.14 19:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Megan Maynard With gang support, like a tackle and web, AC munnin is straight up nasty. NASTY. Your AC Muninn will put the inty into 3/4's shields at 15km, while I instapop it. I know which one I'll take. TBFH, I think you're crazy for using an AC Muninn. You're wasting the bonuses on the ship. I've used one... the Vaga does it better. -Liang Which are? ROF bonus, tracking speed bonus, damage bonus. Not seeing the waste there. (Optimal range bonus with a weapons system that sucks hard like arty's. I'll stick with autos.)

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