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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Halete
Almost Epic
20
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Posted - 2012.03.16 07:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 07:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
You're right, as an almost purely Frigate pilot of over a year now looking to use T2 Frigates for the long-term this is my hidden agenda.
It has nothing to do with the fact what you're suggesting offers such insane ISK efficiency for such ridiculous ship bonuses.
It definitely also has nothing to do with, just as importantly, what you're suggesting would in the long run lead to a complete homogenization of ships seen in space.
Actually scratch that, let me train the one weapon system I haven't for Frigs (lasers) for my infinite AFTerceptors.
Additionally, training all weapon systems to V should open up the Uber Weapon Systems skill that offers a flat 10% damage increase per charge, per level. Choosing to have diversity and flexibility should not only do exactly that for you - making you more versatile - it should also make you flat out more effective than someone who strictly specializes in an area.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
20
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Posted - 2012.03.16 07:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Train Industry and Social. I just improved your ISK effiency by a gigantic amount and wrapped up your thread for you - whilst answering your "extra training should equal higher effiency" dilemma. For the record, my not-so-long-term goal is to train all IV and Vs in all applicable skills for all racial frigates. I still think your suggestion is poorly placed even though this would be an inevitably gigantic buff to me personally.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
20
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Posted - 2012.03.16 08:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
1) It should. Specializing should get you a certain ship classes advantages faster, period. Cross-training still allows you to be more diverse and opens up faction ships.
2) Because generally those are more effective ships and do more ISK's value in damage during their life-span. This is relative on how experienced the pilot is, mind you.
3) You're telling me to see the "big picture" butyou're choosing to ignore the wealth of skills that give you more ISK effiency.
4) There is no injustice or imbalance. Let me break it down for you: You want ALL THE SHINY SHIPS but not at SHINY SHIP prices and you don't want to train GET-SHINY-SHIP-FASTER skills because you want SHINY-GUNS skills. Also, you think it's unfair that the people that get 25% of the SHINY SHIPS accomplish that faster than people who get ALL THE SHINY SHIPS.
Guess it's my folly then, but good luck in your endeavor with this hilarious over-buff proposal.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 08:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
I probably shouldn't justify that rant with a response, but regarding the ISK efficiency segment; I should've mentioned that I was speaking relatively and "ISK damage done" wasn't the best term to use.
A small nano-gang with a half-competent FC is generally going to be very efficient. That said, in fleet engagements certain ships won't always cut it. You won't deploy a ton of cheap frigates against a Titan (assuming the Titan has a support fleet... I've known of frig blobs catching lone Titans) typically.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 08:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think both are viable if you're cross-training with a goal in mind (being able to fly certain ships) and not just training all skills in a ship size for ***** & giggles. Pirate faction ships are particularly nice in this case. If you're training intelligently this isn't much of a commitment.
That said if you have one specific ship in mind training non-applicable skills isn't worthwhile. Shocking.
Maybe I can petition for Mining skills to make my Minmatar guns stronger, too.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
20
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Posted - 2012.03.16 09:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Halete wrote: Maybe I can petition for Mining skills to make my Minmatar guns stronger, too. Since essentially what you're saying is that training in multiple areas should be an absolute global buff even when you're not using skills relevant to what you're flying. This is real progress we are making now. Yes this is exactly what I mean, not for mining skills applying to guns of course, I do hope that was merely sarcasm. Instead with gun skills in general having a smaller effect to other races guns and ship skills in general having a smaller effect in other races ships. I am looking at something as small as a 3% overall usefulness increase if need be. Beggars can't be choosers and you got to start somewhere.
No, we're not making progress. No, it wasn't sarcasm. If you want to train [random skills] and get a bonus to your other skills, I want to train [random skills] and get a bonus, too.
Basically, your complaint seems to boil down to "a Titan pilot with a dedicated skill plan is much more efficient in SP than a Titan pilot who trains for literally years of skills that DON'T APPLY to his Titan". Well, no ****?
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
20
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Posted - 2012.03.16 10:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Oh dear is correct.
I use the mining example because it doesn't and should not effect non-mining traits.
Just like Spaceship Command skills do not and should not effect ships outside of their racial or multi-racial ships. And even then you have a bunch of SC skills that apply to ship classes of ALL races.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
21
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Posted - 2012.03.16 10:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Pure gold.
Thank-you for this.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
21
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Posted - 2012.03.16 10:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Crellion wrote:My answers inserted. Regrettably I am not smoking anything 
Gallente, right? I blame the Quafe.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
22
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Posted - 2012.03.16 10:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Crellion wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Quote:Quote:One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence. YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE? I do not. But you haven't really made your case on why this is a "bad" thing. Why shouldn't people who want an extra 15 to 25% advantage over T1 ships pay through the nose to buy/lose it? Honestly... what you are proposing is called "power creep" and it can only end in very bad things down the road. Because the whole of EvE is based on paying more as the only way to get better vessels. I think this si just to make us run the treadmill for CCP electricity. It might be unavoidable but the occasional respite would be nice. What I am proposing is not a tech II ship. No increas ein slots, resists, base stats, none of that. But a vessel that requires to have mastered all races to fly it, is decidedly tech I (in prices and mindset) but better than the exisitng tech I of its class. Somewhere close to tech II but not quite there would be nice. Freely available to all dirt cheap however. Nothing like faction ships. I think this would be a welcome change from always having to pay more to get more. Cut down the grinding a bit too. Shock horror...
HTFU. ISK cost is the crux that balances ships of all sizes, tiers and pilot ages.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
22
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Posted - 2012.03.16 11:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
"I'm going to twist what you said and accuse you of not understanding."
Nice Ad Hominem, but I do understand.
Notice how I didn't say ISK price was the only factor.
Note how pilot age is referring mainly to the minimum time it takes to step into x ship with relevant core skills.
I'm getting quite sick of you attacking me and not my arguments because you don't have a good response.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
22
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Posted - 2012.03.16 11:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Halete wrote:"I'm going to twist what you said and accuse you of not understanding." Nice Ad Hominem, but I do understand. Notice how I didn't say ISK price was the only factor. Note how pilot age is referring mainly to the minimum time it takes to step into x ship with relevant core skills. I'm getting quite sick of you attacking me and not my arguments because you don't have a good response. Then I ll attack you no more go in peace. PS When quoting leave the original text there for all the world to see please...
I wouldn't inflict that on people's mouse wheels for the sake of that.
The fact is even now you're not properly responding to my points, instead you try to paint me as being plain wrong or an idiot even though every other person here is echoing the same things I am - except for one person who just welcomed the idea of new hulls period.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
22
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Posted - 2012.03.16 11:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
I can't really comment on that entire post, because it was based on the consideration that my post was about how "ISK was the only way to get the advantage". It never was. I said ISK was a central - but not the only - balancing factor concerning ship hulls. By making essentially better hulls compete with their lower tech counterparts for pricing, you're creating a huge power creep based on age / aggregate SP. It's a gap that new pilots won't be able to fill in short order, because they'd have to up their current training plan several-fold compared to what a new pilot needs now to be able to catch up to an old pilot in a specific role.
But, several people have said this besides myself, which you'd appreciate if you took the time to process what they're telling you. It isn't just me.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
22
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Posted - 2012.03.16 12:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Here's the problem:
You seem to think I don't understand your suggestion. This is shown by your need to reiterate it constantly and say I don't understand constantly even when people are very, very clearly responding to your suggestion and showing they understand.
I have, this entire thread. Everyone has, this entire thread. Nobody likes it.
Here's the other problem:
"It does however fix current imbalance."
You're adamant that this perceived imbalance is real, but it isn't. This is what everyone is telling you. There is no imbalance to fix. If anything, cross-training is on the strong side.
Here's the third problem:
Nobody likes a "Discussion" thread where the OP blows everyone off who is trying to show them the other side of the coin.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
22
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Posted - 2012.03.16 12:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Well even if you did misinterpret some of what Tippia said, I'm glad you acknowledge that one of the half a dozen people telling you the exact same thing is sensible.
Not sure exactly what I did to get blown off... or the rest of us, for that matter.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
23
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Posted - 2012.03.16 15:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
The carrot to cross-train is already there. Explain how you're finding 2 races fit 99% of situations?
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
23
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Posted - 2012.03.16 16:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
The thing I don't get is, I think almost every person in this thread is cross-training. It's not like this is a case of the Rock saying that Scissors is fine.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
31
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Posted - 2012.03.19 07:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'm not fundamentally against faction ships that require all racials. Seems like it could be cool.
... You know, so long as they aren't balanced as OP is suggesting. Also, there's a kind of bitter sweetness after seeing this thread get more support (against it) after being up for 40 hours and getting on the EVE forums (from the office, so don't even suggest sleeping).
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
31
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Posted - 2012.03.19 12:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
That's what everyone keeps telling you. What isn't there to understand?
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
31
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Posted - 2012.03.19 12:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
Okay, you can tell that (that you are silly people and this was your ploy all along!) to every single other person in this thread saying the same thing as me rather than singling me out as you continue to do.
Except then you'd be directly contradicting the point you keep making that you think the SPs should reward you with ISK efficiency etc. etc. and all the other points you have been reinforcing throughout the thread.
Sigh.
Just going to leave this here since you are undoubtedly going to point out how much of an idiot and wrong I am about that, whilst disregarding everyone else who was for the all-racial idea along with me.
ShahFluffers wrote:One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence.
Crellion wrote:
YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE?
Yep, merely suggesting all-racial with arbitrary values.
In unrelated news, you seem to have quite the vendetta against me so I'm going to vanish before someone says something regrettable.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
31
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Posted - 2012.03.19 13:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you insist;
I said everyone says YES (see #86). The reason no further explanation was offered is because people have repeated the same points over and over and I don't want to beat the dead horse. Cross-training for versatility is it's own reward.
Also, the reason it feels personal is because quite a few people are echoing my own posts, but you only single mine out with the belittling and demeaning comments - and you have insisted that I am either blatantly wrong or misunderstanding the entire thread, whilst offering very little foundations for why - and when it is not really me you should be addressing, but rather EVERYONE who is replying to you.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
32
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Posted - 2012.03.19 14:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
There's that "you've been wrong" card again. Again, I only echo what many other people are saying.
When I use sarcasm, hyperbole, deadpan humour and say things like "Miner Is should buff Projectile Turrets too", that's on purpose. It's not because I'm such a wildly idiotic, crazy person. It's to make myself sound ridiculous so that you have a frame of reference for how other-worldly your ideas actually sound to me.
Hope this clears things up,
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
34
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Posted - 2012.03.21 07:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Woah, I could've sworn OP finally acknowledged that he was wrong and that this thread could be wrapped up.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
35
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Posted - 2012.03.22 08:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
Regarding the previous post,
Considering he is referring to us all as being so 'cemented' in our ways in a derogatory fashion and is completely unironic, I would say tremendous troll.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
35
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Posted - 2012.03.22 08:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tremendous idiot works fine, too.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
35
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Posted - 2012.03.22 08:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
tl;dr for you folks just joining;
OP asks if trans-racial cross training is it's own reward.
Response is yes.
OP insists nobody understands him, then merely goes on to re-frame the same question.
Response is yes.
Repeat ad infinitum, occasionally using the word 'sentimental' incorrectly.
If this saved you five minutes of reading, you know where to leave your ISK.
This was a public service announcement.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
35
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Posted - 2012.03.22 08:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Halete wrote:tl;dr for you folks just joining;
OP asks if trans-racial cross training is it's own reward.
Response is yes.
...I disputed the value of this reward...
You may want to re-read,
Answer is yes, the value is what is being stated.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
43
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
It addresses the problem that this one guy doesn't feel that having all four races isn't enough of an advantage or worthwhile compared to training just one or two factions. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is the most prudent matter CCP has ever had on it's hands.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
43
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Why would I do that? I wholeheartedly support your quest on being a greedy so-and-so who wants to amass power for himself lazily by out of game means. It's the purest expression of the sand-box.
Now on to more pressing matters; my unprecedented support during your campaign surely cannot go un-noticed, a pittance of 100 million ISK would show good praise and ensure my position as your side-kick for this player movement for as long as it takes to get your voice heard.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Halete
Almost Epic
43
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Thank-you Crellion,
I await your correspondence with bated breath.
Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
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