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Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
18
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Posted - 2012.03.16 09:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. More versatility and better nerf-proofing is reward enough in itself.
Cross training already beats out specialisation, especially in the small/medium ship categories where you have the massive efficiency of Interceptor, EAF, Covops, Interdictor, HIC, HAC, Recon and Command skills applying to 4-8 ships each instead of 1-2.
(I'd add "Battlecruiser" as well, but that won't be true for much longer - it has historically been a very compelling argument, and in fact it's more important than ever to have BC 5 these days.) |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
18
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 09:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
In fact I'll go so far as to say that any serious PvP pilot should at minimum cross train to at least 1 more race to at least the Cruiser V / T2 medium weapon level. The benefits are simply too large to ignore. |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
18
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 09:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
What are you talking about? Getting access to 5 new T2 cruisers at level 5 is an incredible incentive to train another Cruiser 5.
Plus the ships you say you want already exist in the form of Pirate faction ships. |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
19
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Posted - 2012.03.16 10:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Pheusia wrote:What are you talking about? Getting access to 5 new T2 cruisers at level 5 is an incredible incentive to train another Cruiser 5.
Plus the ships you say you want already exist in the form of Pirate faction ships. Please read the previous answers as to why factions ships are not an answer here. Regarding what you say here I ask you to answer this: You can fly all cruiser sized vessels of two races. You are considering what to do next. You can train BS5 for one race or you can train cruiser 5 for another 2 races (or thereabouts). You think that these two incentives are equal? EDIT Not for Pheusia but in general. I dont mind for people to say yes I see what you are saying but I dont like the idea. First however I want to make sure that we all open our eyes and look at the true issue. Then I ll accept disagreement and bugger off.
I don't think the incentives are equal; it's way more advantageous to train the Cruiser 5s. (This is because the T2 BS are very limited for PvP, and there's not much you can really do with a BS 5 that you can't with BS 4)
To me it seems that you are stuck in a "bigger = better" mindset. And also that you want to break one of the fundamental tenets of EVE, which is that skills are capped. At the moment if John Q McNoob wants to train up Gallente Frigate 5, Interceptor 5 and T2 Light Blasters and fly a Taranis, he'll be as good as anyone else with those skills. Under your scheme, he'll have to train up the other 3 Frigate & 2 Small Turret skills as well. At a stroke you're almost tripling the hill that new players have to climb in order to reach skill equality.
Given the already strong advantages of cross training, I'd have to oppose your idea on this basis alone. |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
36
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 13:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Nnam Pir wrote:The big benefit of cross-training for other race's ships is the extra options. That alone is a big benefit. It was a huge benefit 5 years ago, especially from having one race to having two races vessels at your disposal. Is that still the case after all weapon systems and vessels beconing more and more same-ish over the years? Is it rwardign enough to go from 3 races to 4 as well??? Compared with the advantages of gaining other ship classes in the same type?
Y E S |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
39
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Posted - 2012.03.20 10:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Crellion wrote: Were there times when six HACs at your disposal just would not cut it and you needed desperately that last race to be competitive?
I'll answer that question on my own behalf: yes.
When you need a long range DPS ship to keep Falcons off the field, there's no HAC that will come close to the Cerberus. When you need a hgh speed anti-support/heavy tackle/hit-and-run ship, then other HACs are a poor subsitute for the Vagabond. When you need HAC that can use drones, then the Ishtar is the only reasonably choice. When you want to join an AHAC fleet, the Zealot is convincingly superior to the other HACs.
The Recons have distinct enough roles that the advantages of being able to use them all are too obvious to need explaining.
HICs are a little less obvious, but still, you will definitely want to be able to fly both a shield and an armour HIC. The Devoter is significantly better than the Phobos for "big fleet" work due to its resist profile and incredible EHP, while the Phobos is better for lo-sec work. There's not really much to choose between the Onyx and the Broadsword IMO.The Onyx is a little better at providing supplementary DPS, the Broadsword is more agile.
The true advantage I have been able to derive from cross-training rather than specialising is that when the FC announces "Tonight's fleet is a $DOCTRINE fleet" I am always able to fill at least one, usually more, role in the fleet in the ship best suited to it. If the FC wants to try out a concept Gallente Battlecruiser fleet, I can fly that BC. If he wants an all-Ishtar fleet, I can do that. If he's short on Interdictors, I can swap out to whatever spare dictor hull someone has lying around.
(The irony is that I am posting this with a relatively specialised alt; my main - Malcanis - is the omnitasker. But even this semi-specialised alt is busy cross-training right now, and she can fly the very few ships that Malc can't) |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
40
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 11:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Let's look at this a different way:
Everybody cross trains in one way or another.
Some players prioritize cross training across classes - from frigate to cruiser to ballteship to capital - to gain the versatility of being able to use different ship sizes. Other players focus more on cross training across races to gain the versatility of the different racial specialities. Many do a sort of compromise, racing to battlecruisers or battleships before starting to cross train to add racial versatility. Eventually if you keep on training you'll do both kinds of cross training to their logical conclusion and be able to fly "everything".
All we're really doing is arguing about the route to the final destination. It's not obvious to me that specialising in cross-training races should get a special bonus that specialising in cross training classes doesn't, any more than going 100 yards north then 100 yards west should lead you to a different destination or take less time than going 100 yards west then 100 yards north. |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
40
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 11:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Pheusia wrote:Let's look at this a different way: Everybody cross trains in one way or another. Some players prioritize cross training across classes - from frigate to cruiser to ballteship to capital - to gain the versatility of being able to use different ship sizes. Other players focus more on cross training across races to gain the versatility of the different racial specialities. Many do a sort of compromise, racing to battlecruisers or battleships before starting to cross train to add racial versatility. Eventually if you keep on training you'll do both kinds of cross training to their logical conclusion and be able to fly "everything". All we're really doing is arguing about the route to the final destination. It's not obvious to me that specialising in cross-training races should get a special bonus that specialising in cross training classes doesn't, any more than going 100 yards north then 100 yards west should lead you to a different destination or take less time than going 100 yards west then 100 yards north. I think now you are a lot closer to what I mean. Perhaps you have even hit the nail on the head... Indeed the issue I have is that going further down the different classes corridor confers higher advantages to the player, progressively, than exploring all four rooms in every stage of the corridor.
But it's only an issue for you, because you're literally the only person who thinks it confers higher advantages. Once a character is at battlecruiser 4/T2 medium guns level, then the advantages of spending the next 3M SP on training another frigate 5 + cruiser 5 + small turret 5 + med turret 5 are so much better than spending 3M SP training battleship 5 + large turret 5 that it's almost unbalanced.
I'll readily concede that it's a good idea for a brand new player to get to battlecruisers quickly, purely because they're the optimal ISK making platform if you don't have many SP. After that, I - along with literally everyone else in this thread - am 100% in favour of cross racial specialisation.
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Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
40
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 22:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Crellion wrote:
I think in 3 or 4 years you ll see my point...
I started playing in September 2006. How much longer will I need to wait before I see how much worse cross-training is?
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