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Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 04:22:00 - [31] Originally by: Corduroy Rab If you go and cut down a tree and haul it off that tree is yours. The wreck is more like the left over stump and roots of the tree which do not become yours unless you do something further. For them to become yours you need to dig them up and haul them off, this is salvaging. Since a further transformation on the resource needs to be performed the possible results of that transformation cannot be considered yours until you perform them. It's an opinion, but not one I agree with. A tree stump is virtually useless to a logger. I guess he could tear it up and pulp it and make comply-boards, but it isn't anyone else's stump until he decrees no interest in it. Quote: The forums can become cluttered easily and reopening the same topic in another thread is most of the problem. You could have supported a change in the salvage system more responsibly by posting your support in one of the many existing threads. The very fact there are so many threads of this nature is an indication of how many people feel about this. Quote: Quote: It doesn't happen to me often, but the thing that really annoys me is if the thief asked if I wanted the wrecks then I would probably let them have them unless I have a requirement for them. THAT is interaction. The current system just causes people to create flame wars in local. If that is truly how you feel perhaps you should make an effort to be nice and accommodating to these salvages? When they come to your mission great them and have a friendly chat? Perhaps if you were nice they wouldn't bother you? Err, no. If they don't ask they don't get. They have to initiate the request, not I, because they don't know if I want the salvage or not. The simple fact is they come in knowing full well they are immune. It's a cowardly act. Quote: It would create more opportunity for PvP! Quote: Since you seem to despise negative interaction and "flame wars in local" this doesn't make sense. If anything you will have more, as people stop loosing a couple alloyed trit bars and start losing mission running ships.But if you don't mind mission runners getting ganked by "salvage flippers" more power to ya. You don't have to shoot them. That's YOUR choice. If you don't want PvP then don't shoot. It's quite simple. Therefore I would argue that you are making less sense than you claim of me. The whole point is that as it stands they are immune to all intents and purposes unless you are infuriated enough to track them down and catch them in lo-sec. The reason salvage thieves are so annoying is because you are powerless to stop them except by shooting the wrecks they go for. If they were open for PvP for doing it then that would give the mission runner a choice of how he responds to this thief. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Smantha Dering Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 04:35:00 - [32] No repercussions? Try war decs, not all salvagers hide in npc corps. Want flagging? just like everyone already said, salvage flagging won't accomplish anything, the salvagers will bring bigger ships and kill you if you try to defend "your" wrecks. You have your loot and your bounties, as a former mission runner I say you're over paid for your point and click easy isk anyway.
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 04:57:00 - [33] Originally by: Smantha Dering No repercussions? Try war decs, not all salvagers hide in npc corps. Want flagging? just like everyone already said, salvage flagging won't accomplish anything, the salvagers will bring bigger ships and kill you if you try to defend "your" wrecks. Good. More fun for the PvPers. As I said above, you dont have to defend your wrecks. The choice is yours whether you want to open fire on a thief or not. Quote: You have your loot and your bounties, as a former mission runner I say you're over paid for your point and click easy isk anyway. Kind of ironic you should say that about people making easy isk out of other peoples wrecks. Mission runners suck because it's easy isk, but salvage thieves are bang up people working real hard for theirs, right? If you wasn't so sad, I'd laugh. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
theteck	Posted - 2008.07.15 05:13:00 - [34] just shoot the wreck before the guy take it each time he near a wreck...
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:02:00 - [35] Originally by: Hieronimus Rex It's really funny that part of the reason CCP removed salvage flagging was because of whiners saying they got ganked when they salvaged a wreck that they didn't create. WHINERS VS. WHINERS WHO WILL WIN!? I guess anyone who disagrees with the status quo is a whiner on your planet. Damn those whiners who got women the vote. Damn those whiners that got equal rights for black people. Damn those whiners who join the police force and fight crime. Damn whiners, never do anything..... I'm not claiming that what I'm asking for is anywhere near the importance of the above examples, but seeing something you dont agree with and voicing your disagreement doesn't count as whining. You really ought to learn to judge others by something far better than your own standards. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:07:00 - [36] I think that all ur wreckz r b3l0ng 2 m3. Mind telling me where you run missions at?
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus I expend my isk destroying the ship …and you already get compensated for that. There are three rewards, each with it's own level of competition: 1. Bounty – automatically yours, and yours alone. 2. Loot – others can fight you for it. 3. Salvage – others can race you for it. Why is it so hard to just be the first one to salvage? If you created the wreck, you're already on the scene, closer to it than anyone else – you already have every advantage you could possibly need. We're already compensated, yes? 1. Bounty – not every ship has a bounty. 2. Loot – not every ship has loot. 3. Salvage – often salvage is the only thing you get for your expenditure on ammo. Why is it so hard for you to understand that I created the wreck and if you salvage it you are in effect stealing my isk? Seems we're not always compensated and someone can come along and steal your only compensation with impunity. Next feeble argument please..... cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:11:00 - [38] Originally by: JordanParey I think that all ur wreckz r b3l0ng 2 m3. Mind telling me where you run missions at? Thanks for your input. The kiddies forum is down the hall. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Andrymeda Edited by: Andrymeda on 13/07/2008 15:56:05 Anyone who comes across it can salvage a wreck. Its that way in RL too. Really? http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5396/is_200701/ai_n21284266?tag=artBody;col1 cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:18:00 - [40] Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 15/07/2008 11:18:42 Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus I expend my isk destroying the ship àand you already get compensated for that. There are three rewards, each with it's own level of competition: 1. Bounty û automatically yours, and yours alone. 2. Loot û others can fight you for it. 3. Salvage û others can race you for it. Why is it so hard to just be the first one to salvage? If you created the wreck, you're already on the scene, closer to it than anyone else û you already have every advantage you could possibly need. We're already compensated, yes? 1. Bounty û not every ship has a bounty. 2. Loot û not every ship has loot. 3. Salvage û often salvage is the only thing you get for your expenditure on ammo. Why is it so hard for you to understand that I created the wreck and if you salvage it you are in effect stealing my isk? Seems we're not always compensated and someone can come along and steal your only compensation with impunity. Next feeble argument please..... 4. Mission completion reward and bonus. Every mission has it. Search: Sky Grunthor
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5396/is_200701/ai_n21284266?tag=artBody;col1 Actually this article brings in an interesting idea. It seems until the wreck is declared unowned no-one has right to salvage. The wrecks already have timers on them to make them evaporate. How hard would it be to write in the code to extend that time but once 90 mins has been reached you lose sole right to salvage. Also in the article it mentions a scheme where you become an official bounty hunter. In the game this could be worked as you buying a permit from the local authorities to salvage in their region. If however you salvage wrecks that have not been deemed unowned then you are open to finanical penalty and in extreme cases of disregard for the rules or "aggravated wreck taking", more extreme penalties. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:28:00 - [42] Edited by: Slinkus Gallentus on 15/07/2008 11:28:58 Originally by: Sky Grunthor 4. Mission completion reward and bonus. Every mission has it. 4. a) That is for doing the mission. If I asked you to do something for me would you do it gratis every time? I think not. Now you appear to be arguing that loot should be a free for all too. Please clarify your position. 4. b) not everyone does it in time. This is a bonus from the agent for quick completion. Again, you appear to be arguing that loot should also be a free-for-all. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Magmain Caldari Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:46:00 - [43] Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Why the hell are we not allowed to shoot them? Is this a PvP game or not? If I shoot a rat then the results of his demise belong to me. The salvage belongs to me. If someone comes along and tries to salvage it then I should be allowed to shoot them. As the system stands it allows people to steal freely. That's frankly pathetic. CCP, sort this out as the current way is rubbish and non-sensical. If someone comes along and salvages a wreck that is clearly marked as beloning to me then I should be able to kill them without concord interfering. Agreed. It just ****es you off so much to the extent you want to kick a brick will, not knowing that you will break all your toe's, then you cry because none told me that would happen >.< CCP need more minor ways for pilots to aggro others and cause random, pointless battles ;)
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:50:00 - [44] Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 15/07/2008 11:53:04 Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Edited by: Slinkus Gallentus on 15/07/2008 11:28:58 Originally by: Sky Grunthor 4. Mission completion reward and bonus. Every mission has it. 4. a) That is for doing the mission. If I asked you to do something for me would you do it gratis every time? I think not. Now you appear to be arguing that loot should be a free for all too. Please clarify your position. 4. b) not everyone does it in time. This is a bonus from the agent for quick completion. Again, you appear to be arguing that loot should also be a free-for-all. so what if its for missions. its a reward for your time and isk. The only other place you find npc rats and wrecks are in belts and occasionaly gates and those all have bounties on them (barring the drones which have recycleble loot) your arguments rest in part on you having to expend time and isk. as such this is a completely valid hole in your argument. I don't see where you see me arguing for free for all loot however. I don't believe that was ever a specific and designed on purpose with a purpose game mechanic as is the open salvage. Search: Sky Grunthor
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 11:56:00 - [45] Originally by: Magmain Agreed. It just ***es you off so much to the extent you want to kick a brick will, not knowing that you will break all your toe's, then you cry because none told me that would happen >.< CCP need more minor ways for pilots to aggro others and cause random, pointless battles ;) Well, it doesn't iss me off that much, and as I said above, it doesn't happen to me that often. The point I am trying to get across is that a wreck is caused by someone they should have first dibs on salvaging it and if someone comes along and steals it then they should have a right to shoot them if they feel ****y enough. Unless you want to gank people in lo-sec or 0.0 there are few opportunities for PvP outside of war time. Granted, this faction war stuff has increased the opportunity, but I don't want to have to change corp just to have the odd bit of PvP. My main beef is that they can salvage with impunity. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Galadhaktrien Laerawe	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:03:00 - [46] Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus The point you seem to be missing is that the wreck don't exist unless I blow the ship up. ie. I expend my isk destroying the ship and the wreck therefore belongs to me. It simply would not be a wreck unless I turn it into one. If someone comes along and salvages my wrecks then he is stealing from me. I spent the isk making the wreck and it should be up to me if I want to recover some of that expense from salvaging the ship. Not for any Thomas, Richard or Harrison to invade my mish and help themselves without fear of repercussion. The whole point of forums is to campaign for change and that's what I am campaigning for. You want to salvage? Then blow your own ships up and salvage them. If you dont want to do that and want to salvage wrecks that you didnt make, then you should be open to consequences, not a free lunch at someone else's expense. It doesn't happen to me often, but the thing that really annoys me is if the thief asked if I wanted the wrecks then I would probably let them have them unless I have a requirement for them. THAT is interaction. The current system just causes people to create flame wars in local. Someone mentioned lag and how these people are doing us a favour. Well, do ME a favour! The problem of LAG is CCPs problem. I, as a user, expect the system to be working as is desribed by the EULA. If it dont then it needs fixing by CCP not by fluke chance of salvage thief. Someone pointed to real life maritime laws. Who gives a toss? This is not real life. It does not have to mimic real life. Someone quoted a GM - so what? It is their point of view I seek to change. Without people campaigning for a change it won't happen. Someone said salvage whine thread #12219823476 or whatever. If you dont like these threads you don't have to read them. The fact that you took the time to comment shows one of two things which I won't elucidate on. I might get banned! I say, salvaging wrecks that you didn't make should be a chance you take that might end up with you losing your ship. It would create more opportunity for PvP! I strongly disagree. If you blew up my ship, the remains of my ship are still mine. By salvaging any wreck, you are stealing from the original owner of the now defunct ship.
Night Tripper Es and Whizz	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:08:00 - [47] so what your saying is, if I go along an trash someone else's car, it would then belong to me? blowing other people's things up, is no legal basis for private property acquisition!
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:08:00 - [48] Originally by: Sky Grunthor so what if its for missions. its a reward for your time and isk. Indeed. So there is an imbalance further down which I am addressing and you have also highlighted. Quote: The only other place you find npc rats and wrecks are in belts and occasionaly gates and those all have bounties on them (barring the drones which have recycleble loot) your arguments rest in part on you having to expend time and isk. as such this is a completely valid hole in your argument. I don't see where you see me arguing for free for all loot however. I don't believe that was ever a specific and designed on purpose with a purpose game mechanic as is the open salvage. If you deem the mission reward and possible bonus to be sufficient reward as you have stated above then anything in the mission should be open to all comers. It isn't. 1. If someone comes along and takes loot I can shoot them. 2. If they come along and salvage my stuff without asking if I want it, they can take it with impunity. Imblance in my humble opinion. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Ralara Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:21:00 - [49] Oh shut up, Slink. The game is designed this way. It's intended for people to salvage any wreck. You don't like that, I understand. But; Tough. Luck. --
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Is this a PvP game or not? yes it is. So why are you mission whoring in Empire Space? I see, so on your planet mission running and pvp cant happen? sure it can, that's why this thread is so funny. You complain that you can't shoot players that salvage stuff in your mission. Solution: Go to low security or null security space. You can shoot whoever you like and Concord won't intervent. The only numbers I care about are 3-2-1-launch..*
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:22:00 - [51] Originally by: Galadhaktrien Laerawe I strongly disagree. If you blew up my ship, the remains of my ship are still mine. By salvaging any wreck, you are stealing from the original owner of the now defunct ship. Well, if I just shot your behind, then I could really care less. Seriously, I actually agree with you in that it is your ship and you should have first dibs on it. Should the faction want to come and salvage the ships I destroyed they are welcome to come along and do so. That would strike me as being far more proper and correct. In fact, that could be worked into the game. You register yourself with a faction as a salvager/looter for their stuff and you are allowed to actively seek missions involving your faction for salvage/loot within a time constraint of say 90 mins. Once 90 mins has passed it becomes anyones. It does not give you exclusive right as there is the spoils-of-war issue to consider and I think that should be upheld. However, if you come into a mission and the mission runner is there, as you are now a representative of the faction the mission runner is fighting, you are open to being shot at once you start salvaging/looting. Salvaging could then be seen as a proper job rather than a side-effect and it would have an element of risk associated with it. Non-faction registered salvagers/looters would be open to being shot at once they salvage/loot any wreck that has not reached 90 mins of existence. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Originally by: Smantha Dering No repercussions? Try war decs, not all salvagers hide in npc corps. Want flagging? just like everyone already said, salvage flagging won't accomplish anything, the salvagers will bring bigger ships and kill you if you try to defend "your" wrecks. Good. More fun for the PvPers. As I said above, you dont have to defend your wrecks. The choice is yours whether you want to open fire on a thief or not. Quote: You have your loot and your bounties, as a former mission runner I say you're over paid for your point and click easy isk anyway. Kind of ironic you should say that about people making easy isk out of other peoples wrecks. Mission runners suck because it's easy isk, but salvage thieves are bang up people working real hard for theirs, right? If you wasn't so sad, I'd laugh. And you know it's so easy because you've tried it yourself, right? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:24:00 - [53] Originally by: Night Tripper so what your saying is, if I go along an trash someone else's car, it would then belong to me? blowing other people's things up, is no legal basis for private property acquisition! Read the last couple of posts. I agree with you and I was actually thinking about this, but as it stands it seems that if you trash someone elses car it becomes anyones. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Sol'Kanar Minmatar NightCrew	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:24:00 - [54] I'm good with salvage flagging you to a person and their corporation. If wrecks could show up on probe scans, there'd be a whole lot less complaining. To find the tasty wrecks, a salvager needs a drone or a ship in space to probe down. If none of those are present, all the wrecks floating in that area of space are lost. If wrecks showed up on probe scans, mission runners would probably see a lot less salvagers in their missions.
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:25:00 - [55] Originally by: Malcanis And you know it's so easy because you've tried it yourself, right? Oh please. If you're gonna start down the route of "it takes time and effort for these people to find you and steal your stuff" then I will just point out it takes burglars time and effort to steal your stuff, but it is STILL stealing. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Ralara Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:27:00 - [56] Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Originally by: Malcanis And you know it's so easy because you've tried it yourself, right? Oh please. If you're gonna start down the route of "it takes time and effort for these people to find you and steal your stuff" then I will just point out it takes burglars time and effort to steal your stuff, but it is STILL stealing. --
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:29:00 - [57] Originally by: Sol'Kanar I'm good with salvage flagging you to a person and their corporation. If wrecks could show up on probe scans, there'd be a whole lot less complaining. To find the tasty wrecks, a salvager needs a drone or a ship in space to probe down. If none of those are present, all the wrecks floating in that area of space are lost. If wrecks showed up on probe scans, mission runners would probably see a lot less salvagers in their missions. Well, in conjunction with my ideas above, if you are a registered salvager maybe you could have use of a faction salvage scan probe that does indeed show you where there are wrecks. The story behind it being that all faction ships are fitted with beacons that give out a frequency only detectable by the said faction. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Kalintos Tyl	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:30:00 - [58] Well if you shoot empty wreck concord kills you. If you salvage empty wreck nothing happens. Intresting isnt it?
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:30:00 - [59] Originally by: Ralara Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Originally by: Malcanis And you know it's so easy because you've tried it yourself, right? Oh please. If you're gonna start down the route of "it takes time and effort for these people to find you and steal your stuff" then I will just point out it takes burglars time and effort to steal your stuff, but it is STILL stealing. Thanks for your input. Kiddies is room is down the hall. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Heiwa Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:33:00 - [60] So I bust your mission with a 4 mil (max) salvage boat. "Steal" "your" salvage and get flagged. You blow up said boat. I then get to come back in my WTFPWNMobile and pop your PvE BS, getting far more than the few million you would have "lost" if you had just let me salvage your wrecks in the first place? Sounds fine to me.

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