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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5658
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Posted - 2012.03.18 12:35:00 -
[91] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:This are nice numbers. But this must represent value generated, or the ISK generated? since W-Space don't generate ISK directly.... So this must also include minerals and loot values.... It's ISK generated, and W-space does its ISK injecting through GÇ£blue lootGÇ¥ GÇö stuff that only serves the purpose of being sold to the NPC buy order ISK faucet.
If you want some semi-recent numbers for most of the faucets and sink, you can check out this post and the follow-up post where I collect some of the data CCP Diagoras has been posting. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
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Posted - 2012.03.18 12:58:00 -
[92] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:It would not surprise me to find a great majority of the ISK that is sprung into creation comes from Hisec in some form. Many null sec denizens will head to hisec to run Incursions or run L4s in relative peace and quiet. This is not about "safety", it's about not being hassled about joining mandatory CTAs, being hassled about joining POS bashing fleets, not being hassled about XYZ mandatory alliance-wide activity which all members are required to attend in order to convince the rest of the alliance/NAPtrain that your corporation belongs in that alliance in that space.
So you log off the null sec main, plug into the hisec mission runner and quietly blow up red crosses on your own time, at your own pace, with noone breathing down your neck telling you how you're supposed to play the game.
For every inhabitant of null sec, subtract one hisec inhabitant. That will give you a better idea of how many people are actually hisec care bears. Then take another hisec resident out of the count to account for the null sec guys who head to hisec with mining fleets.
Now find a way to replace all that income that the null sec denizens are heading to hisec to collect, and you'll find hisec PCU will drop, null sec PCU will rise, and this will happen without any null sec alliance recruiting more members.
Incursions are still broken, and they are a significant contributor to price inflation. This works wonderfully for industrialists, not so well for people grinding L4 missions. Eventually we won't need to nerf L4 missions because they won't be worth running ;)
That is a very conservative estimate of Null-to-High chars. In truth, that value ranges from 1 - 5+.
The funding of null-sec activities for a single PvP char can require several alts, depending on the ISK-earning activities pursued and hardware requirements of the PvPer.
I wonder about the proposed migration of ISK-earning alts back to null-sec, though. CCP's grand Dominion-era experiment ended roughly when they ****** anoms a year ago and many of the smaller guys saw their sovereignty infrastructure upgrades turn worthless nearly overnight. The daft CCP game design crew burned many bridges with that change.
TBH, it is much more of a sure thing to pursue high-sec ISK earning via bounties than to gamble on a potential pay-off via significant null-sec investments that might get yoinked by CCP on a whim. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
551
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Posted - 2012.03.18 15:19:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP, Dr.EyjoG,
Ive often wondered if the current growth in the ISK supply is really out of line with what would be desired. Some growth is needed, as we cannot have our present economy without it. Some growth is needed as new players enter the game, and older players tend to have more ISK than younger ones. Which brings me to my question:
Does the average 3 year old character have more ISK than the average 3 year old character in 2009? Imagine a chart where the horizontal axis is "character age" and the vertical axis is "ISK in wallet". What would that chart look like when drawn in 2009, 2010, 2011, and now? In other words, are characters intrinsically getting richer, or are they just getting older and more numerous?
Also I would be interested in knowing what the sources and sinks would look like if you considered accounts that un-subscribe to be an ISK sink to the economy, and accounts that re-subscribe to be an ISK source. I am running for the CSM. Take a look at my ideas. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
424
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Posted - 2012.03.18 15:44:00 -
[94] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:The ISK earning potential of the average Incursion runner vs. the average Anomaly runner vs. the average Mission runner would be really nice too.
Or if that's impossible, a total number of players who received bounties as compared to the total number of players to receive incursion payouts. We do have some of those numbers, courtesy of CCP Diagoras, even if they are a mix of a single day and over a month. In January, some 175k characters ran 6.8 million missions and collected 4.37 trillion ISK in rewards and time bonuses. No number has been given for the amount of bounties collected in those missions, but some of the old omgz-L4-pays-too-much threads arrived at a suggested 1:2.25 ratio between those rewards and the bounties paid out, and if that's true, missions accounted for just under 10 trillion ISK in bountes. That equates to an average of 2.6M ISK per mission runner per day. On February 1st, some 1,780 incursion runners collected some 302 billion ISK for an average of 169M ISK per incursion runner for that day. Granted, some other numbers he posted suggested that February 1st was a particularly active day, paying out roughly 15% more than the average, so we should probably reduce the number by that much That equates to an average of 144M ISK per incursion runner per day. Both of these activities pay out LP, and in January, 5.7 trillion ISK were sunk into various LP stores. Historically, mission running has had an amount of ISK equal to pretty much all of its mission rewards and time bonuses sunk into LP, and if we assume that this trend still holds true, that means 4.37 of those trillions went to mission LP and 1.33 trillion went into incursion LP. Mission runners thus sink 805k ISK per runner per day, reducing their net injection to 1.8M ISK per runner per day. Incursion runners sink a hefty 24M ISK per runner per day, reducing their net injection to 120M ISK per runner per day. That leaves the rest of the bounty payments, but no numbers have been given for how many anomalies/complexes/belt-ratters there are. A total of 27.03 trillion ISK were injected through bounties in January, and if we choose to believe the mission runner bounty calculation above, it means 17 of those trillions come from ratting in its various forms GÇö that's 548bn a day spread over an unknown number of people. If there are more than 4500 of them on average per day, they injects less per person on average than the incursion runners do; if there are fewer, they inject more.
This post needs to be emphasized.
Not even a PHD gets it.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
94
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Posted - 2012.03.19 06:48:00 -
[95] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why CCP would need to intervene with inflation. It's not something new; the charts clearly show that the entire market has been inflating since day one.
Eventually, those running Incursions and ratting for bounties will actually be put at a disadvantage, as the value of pure ISK decreases over time.
However, everyone else will notice a negligible change. Mission runners may earn less value from their ISK rewards, but the price of their salvage and loot will increase, along with the tags that they collect and what they get from LP. Researchers and manufacturers will also be relatively unaffected, as their products will increase in price to match the inflating economy.
At a base level you are correct, except there are several things in the game that dont scale dynamically yet such as blueprints and skill books. When you allow rampant inflation, you risk trivializing this game content, and alienating noobs who may see such high isk amounts as obtainable and get discouraged.
Additionally it should be of note that the most probable reason the inflation doesnt show up in the CPI is because most of the isk is flowing into the hands of the top 5% anyway; whether through selling technetium, or ratting in titans (until the nerf)
The CPI doesnt look at contracts which, I would be willing to bet the inflation shows in the price of officer modules.
The best way to measure the strength of the ISK is to compare it against other currencies like we do with real money, and, as you all have probably noticed, the price of PLEX have been steadily rising meaning the ISK is losing strength against the USD, and considering the USD's terrible buying power, that doesnt say great things for the ISK. |
Wukulo
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
12
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Posted - 2012.03.19 07:45:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:CCP Recurve has a smokin' new price indices blog out on the internet. Check it out here to hear all about recent developments in our amazing economy.
I miss the QEN. =/ |
MacLuven
EL Bernays School of Strategic Communication
11
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Posted - 2012.03.19 13:17:00 -
[97] - Quote
Quote:- money supply: currently growing faster than before incursions
Average money supply Growth Rates by year.
2008-2009 - 7.5% / month 2009-2010 - 4.6% / month 2010-2011 - 2.6% / month 2011-2012 - 4.29% / month
The rate of money supply growth decreased year over year (and this is, I hope, for obvious reasons). Incursions returned the monthly growth rate in money supply to 2009-2010 levels. So, you are right in the technical sense because the money supply growth rate had dipped to an all-time low the year before, but not correct for the years preceding.
Quote: CPI: first deflation, now inflation
Monthly Inflation in the CPI, 2003-Feb 2012 - http://eve-files.com/dl/253053
There is a trendline in here, but it is hard to see since it's so close to flat along the x-axis. Considering constant inflation is considered to be a necessary factor in online games (and a modest amount of inflation not a priori a bad thing to being with for reasons explained by someone else already in this thread.)
Quote: Graph 2: - CPI with more detail: deflation as Eve kicks off and people skill to produce their own stuff, then basically flat and inflation since the introduction of incursions
The period of deflation was first due to markets reaching an equilibrium from initial states, particularly in the mineral market. It continues due to changes in Tech2 manufacturing processes that removed the Tech2 BPO monopolies.
Eve went through year-over-year deflation until 2008-2009 where it saw 0% inflation. The first year of inflation was 2010 and the first datapoint where we see that was June 2010, the first month of data after the release of Tyrannis that included Planetary Interactions.
Quote:- Velocity of money: drops as some people get enough isk to start saving, the line gets more flat over time.
The point of these this graph is to look at both lines in relation to one another and establishing correlation or non-correlation. But the flattening of the velocity of money arm is more of a measure of how peaceful Eve has become than anything economy.
Quote:Lack of correlation between both lines especially recently, seems to indicate that changes in the velocity of money did not cause the current inflation.
Seems like the people claiming that incursions are causing inflation can find at least some support in these graphs.
The first sentence and the second sentence in this above quote contradict one another. You cannot on one hand claim that incursions are "causing inflation" and on the other note that velocity of money is not correlated with "inflation" (increase in the CPI).
The monetarist theories of inflation that rely on money supply as the proximate cause of inflation rely on the velocity of money for their explanation of how inflation comes about. The mechanism underlying these assumptions can't easily be found on a Wikipedia page, which is what has probably led to the fundamental misunderstanding and misapplication of monetarists theories (which really only apply to economies with a central bank and robust credit markets that include a floating interest rate).
This graph is the coup de grace for the "incursions cause inflation" camp based on their typical argument that the cause of inflation in Eve is the expansion of money supply. It shows that there is a fairly flat velocity of money -- a surrogate for the amount of trade, or maybe the intensity of trading -- despite rising prices and despite an increase in money supply.
These two graphs (from the DevBlog) show the exact opposite of what you claim in your final line. They show that people who claim that incursions are causing inflation have no support in the common theories of inflation they've been espousing.
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Keen Fallsword
Billionaires Club BLACK-MARK
42
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Posted - 2012.03.19 13:31:00 -
[98] - Quote
What about drones regions ? |
Billy Kidd
Two Holes One Tower
11
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Posted - 2012.03.19 13:36:00 -
[99] - Quote
CCP Recurve wrote:An important factor in this was probably the absence of a trusted banking sector, which could offer interest and distribute the unused ISK to those in need of funds. I know it would be nigh impossible to implement a proper banking system in EVE, but I would gladly invest money if CCP guaranteed that the banker couldn't just walk off with my cash. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
464
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Posted - 2012.03.19 13:43:00 -
[100] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:CCP has already stated in another thread that they are looking at both faucets and sinks, with the possibility of adding new sinks to the mix.
They definitely need to move away from "raw ISK" as a reward. Better to have the rats drop items that have to be sold to NPC buy orders if you must have an ISK source. That's a bit harder to bot, and requires a bit more risk in order to profit to the maximum. And far better to have more of the reward come from dropped items that you have to sell to other players.
The other major issue that incursions cause is that CONCORD LP can be traded in for every other store's LP in the game, which devalues everyone's LP. CCP needs to change the trade-in value formula so that unless you have high corporate standings with the target corporation, you will not get max value for your CONCORD LP. Which would force corporate standings to matter again and bring missioning (to raise standings) back into the mix.
That'd be a good start.
Add in that more risky PvE content should have higher reward too and you've already done alot to improve the economy. this is a signature |
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Chokichi Ozuwara
Lucky Dragon Convenience
24
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Posted - 2012.03.19 14:15:00 -
[101] - Quote
There is no such thing as PvE risk in Hisec unless you're an idiot or afk in the middle of an operation. Start a corp and do it yourself. You'll fail, but you'll enjoy failing. Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round. |
Michael Turate
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
35
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Posted - 2012.03.19 14:57:00 -
[102] - Quote
My guess is that the isk in Eve is not the problem, it's just that the uber rich need more things to spend their isk on other than things that generate more isk for them. High sec needs to go up for sale, player space mansions with big portraits on the side of them, system ownership with the ability to re-name stations etc - nothing that gives any in-game advantage but concrete things that provide Eve immortality for the lucky few. The property equation is missing at the moment, look at what rich people do in real life, construct estates, build statues, put up buildings with their names on - it's all done for prestige rather than profit because when you get to the top of the tree this is the only thing left to buy. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
464
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:03:00 -
[103] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:Want to increase the offer of products to drop inflation???
Introduce the cloak hunter ship! There will be more people in nullsec, minning and producing stuff! Since now the most safe thing to do there is to farm bounty! Check on the eve sov development indices on the map menu! Every time some industry reaches lvl5 someone camp afk in the system.... and everything cools down...
CCP Fix this! there are no production without minerals! So the prices run UP! If there are more minners in null the prices will go down and there will be more fun!
We know you guys are working on it! Also we know that it have to be a destroyer! And we know that the sooner you release it the better!!! Start the Sisi Tests asap!!!
People who are dumb enough to not be able to control dscan will die in null, to stuff that doesn't have cloaks fitted either. We could just remove local instead, plus dead ships are good for the economy. this is a signature |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
94
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Posted - 2012.03.19 18:24:00 -
[104] - Quote
I would reserve judgement on how the drone regions gaining bounties is going to effect inflation until after the titan nerf goes through.
I have a feeling that these two things may cancel each other out as I have seen many a titan make >200 million isk/hour ratting. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
465
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Posted - 2012.03.19 19:27:00 -
[105] - Quote
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:There is no such thing as PvE risk in Hisec unless you're an idiot or afk in the middle of an operation.
And yet their income matches or surpasses low-, null and wh income. this is a signature |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
84
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Posted - 2012.03.19 19:40:00 -
[106] - Quote
There is no PVE risk in AnySec unless you're an idiot or afk.
Highsec income potential surpassing all other space is pure BS at the micro level. At the macro level it is true, but only because of how so much of the game's PVE content scales linearly with population. |
Prodomicer
Draconis Coalition
1
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:47:00 -
[107] - Quote
Do the sales of Player characters figure into your data ? A ton of isk being traded on characters. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
84
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:55:00 -
[108] - Quote
Prodomicer wrote:Do the sales of Player characters figure into your data ? A ton of isk being traded on characters.
Are you implying that the 5k ISK that gets put into the economy when a character is created is having a dramaitic impact on the economy? |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:07:00 -
[109] - Quote
Next time it would be cool to get knowledge of the distribution of ISK. The last one is from 2009. |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2012.03.20 10:15:00 -
[110] - Quote
Misanth wrote:Alx Warlord wrote:Want to increase the offer of products to drop inflation???
Introduce the cloak hunter ship! There will be more people in nullsec, minning and producing stuff! Since now the most safe thing to do there is to farm bounty! Check on the eve sov development indices on the map menu! Every time some industry reaches lvl5 someone camp afk in the system.... and everything cools down... ! People who are dumb enough to not be able to control dscan will die in null, to stuff that doesn't have cloaks fitted either. We could just remove local instead, plus dead ships are good for the economy.
Even when you are using dscan, you will die. I did this to miners before and will do this to them again. A simple covert cyno is the key |
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Dratic
TURN LEFT
3
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Posted - 2012.03.20 10:51:00 -
[111] - Quote
Character sales and the plex that are used in the transfers are just moving isk around no isk is generated from it Someone at the very beginning of the chain earned the isk via bounties, incursions or completed a courier mission then the isk was traded. Even if someone has done nothing but trade to buy those characters someone once shot a rat or did a mission to get the isk
The biggest problem is too much supply of isk. Incursions produce a lot of isk for the time spent in them Anomalies in nullsec are a similar problem but have more drawbacks as the upgrades need to be bought and upkeep paid Nullsec is a wasteland at the moment as it is no longer worth the effort compared to a hisec where there is so little risk or investment to get comparable rewards. Incursions do not require any upkeep and the only thing clawing back any isk is the lp store but at a tiny amount compared to lvl 4s. The sov system was barely worth the effort when upgrading trash space gave a nice ratting ground for people then they spectacularly messed that up and then introduced incursions. Group content shouldn't necessarily pay more per person just because they group up. Social content is a welcome addition but as a consequence people will farm the content for longer than they would on their own therefore making them more money. Of course for those who love grind this doesn't make a difference but for casual players it can make a huge difference between attempting content in the first place
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knobber Jobbler
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
65
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Posted - 2012.03.20 16:12:00 -
[112] - Quote
The Snowman wrote:aaaaaaahahaha!
FFUuuuuuuuuuuu people who claim incursions cause inflation hahaha....
In the end it was actually 0.0 carebears running anomolies that was causing inflation.
Probably bots, which go for bounties only. Given people have admitted to having upto 100 botting accounts paying for Titans and SC's and SRP's for Corps, it leads to a couple of conclusions, but bots would be my pick. |
Dr 0wnage
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
13
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Posted - 2012.03.21 22:03:00 -
[113] - Quote
So what this tells me is that nearly 10 trillion isk was paid out to people killing npcs in the safety of hi-sec...
Hell, why even go to 0.0??? |
The Snowman
Aliastra Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2012.03.22 17:20:00 -
[114] - Quote
Dr 0wnage wrote:So what this tells me is that nearly 10 trillion isk was paid out to people killing npcs in the safety of hi-sec...
Hell, why even go to 0.0???
No it doesnt.
If you actually go and DO some incursions most people you'll meet are 0.0 alts sick to death of ratting or anomoly running.
And the rest were mission runners, miners and high-sec exploration anyway.
So while 10 tril is indeed a lot, before Incursions people were already making a lot doing other things. so its not like suddenly there is 10 tril MORE, in fact its probably only about half that.......
Not only that, the 9 trillion is from ALLLL incursions, not just high-sec ones, unless your saying that NOONE runs 0.0 uncursions? Which cant be true.
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Aren Dar
Griffin Capsuleers Ad-Astra
14
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Posted - 2012.03.22 17:33:00 -
[115] - Quote
Nair Alderau wrote:Gilbaron wrote:To what extend can those increased prices be explained by the following factors:
Increased demand for maelstrom, Drakes, 1400mm guns, heavy missile launchers and maybe abbadons, lazers and tier 3 battlecruisers?
Plex prices?
Zydrine speculation?
None of the above. Which is quite easy to prove. The first group is downright ... strange. Prices for T1 and T2 items are set by raw material prices, not demand (or only for a very short time period).
Well, the most recent rise in prices for T1 and T2 items certainly seems to be mineral related. Specifically those minerals that can be refined out of drone poo have risen faster than others - which tends to point to the war in the drone regions and the associated disruption in supply as a source of price rises. |
Tetragammatron Prime
Pink Sockers
26
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Posted - 2012.03.22 19:48:00 -
[116] - Quote
obviously un-nerfing anomalies so even the worst scrub alliances could make bank in any 0.0 was a mistake
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Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
184
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Posted - 2012.03.23 20:28:00 -
[117] - Quote
Tetragammatron Prime wrote:obviously un-nerfing anomalies so even the worst scrub alliances could make bank in any 0.0 was a mistake
The majority of botters live in Caldari Empire space.
Blammo. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
148
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Posted - 2012.03.29 06:50:00 -
[118] - Quote
Michael Turate wrote:My guess is that the isk in Eve is not the problem, it's just that the uber rich need more things to spend their isk on other than things that generate more isk for them. High sec needs to go up for sale, player space mansions with big portraits on the side of them, system ownership with the ability to re-name stations etc - nothing that gives any in-game advantage but concrete things that provide Eve immortality for the lucky few. The property equation is missing at the moment, look at what rich people do in real life, construct estates, build statues, put up buildings with their names on - it's all done for prestige rather than profit because when you get to the top of the tree this is the only thing left to buy.
Philantropy is in vogue nowadays :) Give me your ISK! |
Dr Sodius
19
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Posted - 2012.04.08 07:47:00 -
[119] - Quote
hold on a sec...
are you telling me, that nearly 33 trillion isk are coming only from bounties each month? holy ****, thats freaky
could you please show a graph, where all the bounty comes from? i.e. missions, ratting, plexing etc in
high sec
low sec
zero zero
that would be great, really!
because if 40% or more bounty comes from high sec, you should consider a revamp of the mission system as well ...
move all lvl 4 agents into low sec, at least the good ones ... leaving lvl 4 -20 in high sec
players in npc corps shouldnt be allowed to do lvl 4 missions in high sec, maxium lvl 3... war immunity should cost more taxes and joining or creating a corp should release you from this binding and open new possibilities ...
allow alliances who own sov and outposts in zero zero to "install" agents as well, primary security and mining agents
stations services in high sec should cost isk, period! the more are using the service, the more expensive it gets... low sec is free
nothing, absolutly nothing should be for free in high sec! period! |
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