ThereGÇÿs certainly a lot of money coming from Incursions. Incursion rewards in December amounted to 9.6 trillion ISK, which is an all time high, while the rewards in January and February were 9.0 and 8.7 trillion ISK respectively. ThatGÇÿs quite a bit of money entering the economy. However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are. Bounty prizes paid out in February totalled 33 trillion ISK.

This post is even more useless than Government statistics. It tells us almost nothing because we're deprived of access to the larger #s.

More fluffery on the dev blog. BIG YAWN.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why CCP would need to intervene with inflation. It's not something new; the charts clearly show that the entire market has been inflating since day one.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why CCP would need to intervene with inflation. It's not something new; the charts clearly show that the entire market has been inflating since day one.

Eventually, those running Incursions and ratting for bounties will actually be put at a disadvantage, as the value of pure ISK decreases over time.

However, everyone else will notice a negligible change. Mission runners may earn less value from their ISK rewards, but the price of their salvage and loot will increase, along with the tags that they collect and what they get from LP. Researchers and manufacturers will also be relatively unaffected, as their products will increase in price to match the inflating economy.

Inflation is positive if it's kept a certain rate; if it goes too low then the market stalls as people wait for products to become cheaper, hence things don't sell, people don't get paid, bad times.

The opposite to that is hyper-inflation where money rapidly becomes worthless and previous efforts end up counting for squat, which is bad in real life as it discourages work, and even worse in a game which demands a huge amount of time investment.

aaaaaaahahaha!

FFUuuuuuuuuuuu people who claim incursions cause inflation hahaha....

In the end it was actually 0.0 carebears running anomolies that was causing inflation.

lolol, this has made my day!

Watch out null sec dwellers.... neerrfffff incoming!! And you can blame your fellow null sec residents for causing such a fuss..

That ladies and gentlmen is what they call an own-goal LOL!

For those of us who are less versed in economic matters, what I take away from this is that there is inflation and that I should stick all of my liquid isk into goods instead. C/D?

No, there are two types of inflation. One is monetary inflation, where the amount of money [isk] increases. The other is price inflation, where the price of goods increases.

The article points to the fact that money supply has increased massively [thirteenfold] while prices have not increased. They have in fact declined a little - although recently prices have started to increase, it is only by single-digit percentage points [compared to the 1,300% increase in money supply].


However, without actual data it is hard to judge what is really going on or to make predictions about price movements in the future. The short-term price trend is slightly upwards, but the overall long-term pressure has always been downwards.

So unless there is a fundamental change in game mechanics, don't go putting all your isk into real goods just yet. But do be alert to a possible change in game mechanics which might cause huge amounts of isk to bum-rush into the system and drive up prices.

I'd love to see how many pilots were involved in earning the 9 trillion ISK (incursions) compared to the 33 trillion isk (bounties). Posting how much ISK the two activities brought in without the other info is just showing a small part of the story.

If considerably less than 25% of the population is running incursions, then this is obviously broken.

Stating anything to the contrary is obviously and utterly laughable.

So if considerably less than 25% of the population is farming wormholes, then, wormholes are obviously more broken than incursions. Since Blue Lewt contributed about 10.4T isk in Feb compared to the 8.6T from incursions (not just highsec incursions).

Last time i checked there is no concord in wormholes.

So if considerably less than 25% of the population is farming wormholes, then, wormholes are obviously more broken than incursions. Since Blue Lewt contributed about 10.4T isk in Feb compared to the 8.6T from incursions (not just highsec incursions).

So if considerably less than 25% of the population is farming wormholes, then, wormholes are obviously more broken than incursions. Since Blue Lewt contributed about 10.4T isk in Feb compared to the 8.6T from incursions (not just highsec incursions).

From twitter on 29th Feb:
John Turbefield GÇÅ @CCP_Diagoras
Locations of active chars with more than 5m SP just after midnight: High Sec 66.00%, Low sec 7.37%, Null sec 20.73%, Wormhole Space 5.89%

I think you are talking apples to oranges if you compare the continuous risk of being killed by other players in wormhole space and the logistics involved in moving blue loot back to empire to sell to the safety of running highsec incursions and getting instant bounty rewards.

FFUuuuuuuuuuuu people who claim incursions cause inflation hahaha....

In the end it was actually 0.0 carebears running anomolies that was causing inflation.

It seems like he said that ISK that is just made but sits there isn't all that terribly interesting to the economy. What matters is the ISK that's actually used - which is why he went into such laboring over the velocity. Basically: the more people use their accumulated wealth, the higher the price inflation is going to go.

ItGÇÿs also important to note that money supply and the velocity of money are far from being the only things that affect inflation. Supply side changes can have a big impact on prices.

I've been doing some thinking, and it seems to me that a large part of the recent price inflation may be the result of people getting back into the market after resubbing in Crucible after ragequitting in Incarna. The thing about it is that that I would normally expect that to be a temporary price increase, but the amount of available currency may mean that it is more permanent ... its not like anyone has any trouble paying for stuff as it is.

Inflation is positive if it's kept a certain rate; if it goes too low then the market stalls as people wait for products to become cheaper, hence things don't sell, people don't get paid, bad times.

To what extend can those increased prices be explained by the following factors:


Increased demand for maelstrom, Drakes, 1400mm guns, heavy missile launchers and maybe abbadons, lazers and tier 3 battlecruisers?

Plex prices?

Zydrine speculation?

Nope.

Inflation is positive if it's kept a certain rate; if it goes too low then the market stalls as people wait for products to become cheaper, hence things don't sell, people don't get paid, bad times.

No, there are two types of inflation. One is monetary inflation, where the amount of money [isk] increases. The other is price inflation, where the price of goods increases.

This is an economic fallacy, and history doesn't bear this out. Bad news for you, Keynes is dead.

Right on! Stick with your assertion no matter what! What does CCP know anyway!

They know a fair bit, and they're certainly not claiming what The Snowman saysGǪ

No, incursions most certainly cause inflation.

Let's say they were a contributing factor. Some people forget that the Concord LP handed out is actually an ISK sink. I've never seen that number separated from the other LP store sinks, though, so I won't comment on how much it does actually dampen the ISK payout of incursions. Somebody got numbers? (or rough approximations?)

Let's say they were a contributing factor. Some people forget that the Concord LP handed out is actually an ISK sink. I've never seen that number separated from the other LP store sinks, though, so I won't comment on how much it does actually dampen the ISK payout of incursions. Somebody got numbers? (or rough approximations?)

so, did the money supply through bounties change? If not, it does not realy matter if its the largest piece of the pie or not, incursions or something else can still be the cause for the inflation.

Can we get numbers on the amount of characters recieving Incursion payouts and Bounty prizes? (What I'm actually asking for is the ISK per character for each income source). Sure, Bounty prizes paid out 2.5x more in total, but a LOT more people run anomalies and such.

Great informative blog, good to see this kind of data posted gain after the abortion of QEN. However, it would help to know the exact composition of market baskets for the respective indices. I also second the request for the raw data of money supply, or at least the exact method of calculation of the index. If it is not an index the graph is missing units (generally speaking even dimensionless arbitrary units should be noted as such but I guess this is economics).

Yes, all NPC bounties are a faucet for the EVE economy. All NPC paid rewards are as well, so Incursions do contribute to the problem but the picture is much bigger and is not solve by just "Nerf Incursions".

Inflation is positive if it's kept a certain rate; if it goes too low then the market stalls as people wait for products to become cheaper, hence things don't sell, people don't get paid, bad times.

The opposite to that is hyper-inflation where money rapidly becomes worthless and previous efforts end up counting for squat, which is bad in real life as it discourages work, and even worse in a game which demands a huge amount of time investment.

That makes since. But as long as the main sources of ISK in the economy (ratting, incursions), create a linear amount of isk (x million per ship killed or mission completed), then shouldn't inflation also continue to increase at a linear amount?

Maybe I'm just failing to comprehend how we can achieve nonlinear inflation from linear incomes.

Dear CCP, can we get some production and destruction numbers as well?

Such as Total Minerals Mined, can be all minerals lumped together in one big number for all I care. A break down of mins from Loot, drone poo and direct mining would be nice to know too. Total Number of Moon goo units produced, can be all units lumped together as one big number. How many units of planetary P0s were generated. How much salvage, total units droped? How much ice was mined?

How many minerals were destroyed by ships blowing up, how much moon goo was destroyed, how much PI materials in terms of P-0s were destroyed. How many ships are sitting in Hangars. How much salvage was destroyed. How much Ice was consumed?

The provided indicies only tell part of the picture, is productivity keeping up with population growth and ISK growth? Is destruction keeping up with population growth? How much hording, or perhaps better phrased, "incendental hording" of materials going on.

Changes in ISK movements, of the total ISK supply, on active accounts, what percentage of that ISK is in escrow on the market. Total value of all markets (sell orders), minus the outliers, over time. Total value of all buy orders, over time.

Other interesting numbers would be changes in PVP related Skill points to industrial skill points. What's the change in ratio over time. Is Industrial SP investment keeping pace with PVP/PVE SP investment.

BPOs from NPCs, is that keeping pace with population growth? How many ships were produced of each class, how is that moving and the ratio of the types over time.


The big question being asked by these numbers is, is productivity keeping pace with population and money supply? Indicies hint that it is, but is it true? Or is something else going on.

Good questions and suggestions. Some of this will be addressed in the lecture next Friday, other stuff we hope to be able to publish in a Devblog soon after Fanfest.

The basket is updated each month based on trade information from the previous month. See here for more info on our indices.

Some of this will be addressed in the lecture next Friday, other stuff we hope to be able to publish in a Devblog soon after Fanfest.

Therefore, we need to either increase demand for isk or reduce the supply of isk. I recommend a full blown industry/economy expansion sometime soonish. Winter or next summer maybe. Something that will bring balance to all things related to isk faucets/sinks, supply and demand. Give the people a reason to fight over resources again. That kind of thing

I guess that answers your question then.

The ISK earning potential of the average Incursion runner vs. the average Anomaly runner vs. the average Mission runner would be really nice too.

Or if that's impossible, a total number of players who received bounties as compared to the total number of players to receive incursion payouts.

Yes, all NPC bounties are a faucet for the EVE economy. All NPC paid rewards are as well, so Incursions do contribute to the problem but the picture is much bigger and is not solve by just "Nerf Incursions".

But it's still incursion's 100% fault if you were to believe all the naysayers /rollseyes

Pity you can't put more in your sig, this is the 3rd dev to say this and I can't quote him

So when do we get the numbers showing what came from highsec/lowsec/0.0?

This.

Please? Pretty please? With whip cream and a cherry on top??

My guess is it would never happen. Imagine the forum rage when it was confirmed that, id bet, atleast, 80% of the isk coming into game comes from high sec means whether from high sec bounties/incursions/missions.

According to the day slice numbers I collected from CCP Diagoras' tweets, it looks something like this:

Highsec GÇö 889.4bn / 49%
Lowsec GÇö pffahahahah (ok, maybe a few billion in insurance). / 1%
Nullsec GÇö 693.9bn / 38%
W-space GÇö 223.9bn 12%

Some of the nullspace ISK might be lowsec ISK if it turns out that lowsec exploration is actually very common.

This are nice numbers. But this must represent value generated, or the ISK generated? since W-Space don't generate ISK directly.... So this must also include minerals and loot values....

It would not surprise me to find a great majority of the ISK that is sprung into creation comes from Hisec in some form. Many null sec denizens will head to hisec to run Incursions or run L4s in relative peace and quiet. This is not about "safety", it's about not being hassled about joining mandatory CTAs, being hassled about joining POS bashing fleets, not being hassled about XYZ mandatory alliance-wide activity which all members are required to attend in order to convince the rest of the alliance/NAPtrain that your corporation belongs in that alliance in that space.

So you log off the null sec main, plug into the hisec mission runner and quietly blow up red crosses on your own time, at your own pace, with noone breathing down your neck telling you how you're supposed to play the game.

For every inhabitant of null sec, subtract one hisec inhabitant. That will give you a better idea of how many people are actually hisec care bears. Then take another hisec resident out of the count to account for the null sec guys who head to hisec with mining fleets.

Now find a way to replace all that income that the null sec denizens are heading to hisec to collect, and you'll find hisec PCU will drop, null sec PCU will rise, and this will happen without any null sec alliance recruiting more members.

Incursions are still broken, and they are a significant contributor to price inflation. This works wonderfully for industrialists, not so well for people grinding L4 missions. Eventually we won't need to nerf L4 missions because they won't be worth running ;)

We do have some of those numbers, courtesy of CCP Diagoras, even if they are a mix of a single day and over a month.

In January, some 175k characters ran 6.8 million missions and collected 4.37 trillion ISK in rewards and time bonuses. No number has been given for the amount of bounties collected in those missions, but some of the old omgz-L4-pays-too-much threads arrived at a suggested 1:2.25 ratio between those rewards and the bounties paid out, and if that's true, missions accounted for just under 10 trillion ISK in bountes.

That equates to an average of 2.6M ISK per mission runner per day.

On February 1st, some 1,780 incursion runners collected some 302 billion ISK for an average of 169M ISK per incursion runner for that day. Granted, some other numbers he posted suggested that February 1st was a particularly active day, paying out roughly 15% more than the average, so we should probably reduce the number by that much

That equates to an average of 144M ISK per incursion runner per day.

Both of these activities pay out LP, and in January, 5.7 trillion ISK were sunk into various LP stores. Historically, mission running has had an amount of ISK equal to pretty much all of its mission rewards and time bonuses sunk into LP, and if we assume that this trend still holds true, that means 4.37 of those trillions went to mission LP and 1.33 trillion went into incursion LP.

Mission runners thus sink 805k ISK per runner per day, reducing their net injection to 1.8M ISK per runner per day.
Incursion runners sink a hefty 24M ISK per runner per day, reducing their net injection to 120M ISK per runner per day.

That leaves the rest of the bounty payments, but no numbers have been given for how many anomalies/complexes/belt-ratters there are. A total of 27.03 trillion ISK were injected through bounties in January, and if we choose to believe the mission runner bounty calculation above, it means 17 of those trillions come from ratting in its various forms GÇö that's 548bn a day spread over an unknown number of people. If there are more than 4500 of them on average per day, they injects less per person on average than the incursion runners do; if there are fewer, they inject more.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why CCP would need to intervene with inflation. It's not something new; the charts clearly show that the entire market has been inflating since day one.

Eventually, those running Incursions and ratting for bounties will actually be put at a disadvantage, as the value of pure ISK decreases over time.

However, everyone else will notice a negligible change. Mission runners may earn less value from their ISK rewards, but the price of their salvage and loot will increase, along with the tags that they collect and what they get from LP. Researchers and manufacturers will also be relatively unaffected, as their products will increase in price to match the inflating economy.

CCP Recurve has a smokin' new price indices blog out on the internet. Check it out here to hear all about recent developments in our amazing economy.

- money supply: currently growing faster than before incursions

CPI: first deflation, now inflation

Graph 2:
- CPI with more detail: deflation as Eve kicks off and people skill to produce their own stuff, then basically flat and inflation since the introduction of incursions

- Velocity of money: drops as some people get enough isk to start saving, the line gets more flat over time.

Lack of correlation between both lines especially recently, seems to indicate that changes in the velocity of money did not cause the current inflation.

Seems like the people claiming that incursions are causing inflation can find at least some support in these graphs.

An important factor in this was probably the absence of a trusted banking sector, which could offer interest and distribute the unused ISK to those in need of funds.

CCP has already stated in another thread that they are looking at both faucets and sinks, with the possibility of adding new sinks to the mix.

They definitely need to move away from "raw ISK" as a reward. Better to have the rats drop items that have to be sold to NPC buy orders if you must have an ISK source. That's a bit harder to bot, and requires a bit more risk in order to profit to the maximum. And far better to have more of the reward come from dropped items that you have to sell to other players.

The other major issue that incursions cause is that CONCORD LP can be traded in for every other store's LP in the game, which devalues everyone's LP. CCP needs to change the trade-in value formula so that unless you have high corporate standings with the target corporation, you will not get max value for your CONCORD LP. Which would force corporate standings to matter again and bring missioning (to raise standings) back into the mix.

Want to increase the offer of products to drop inflation???

Introduce the cloak hunter ship! There will be more people in nullsec, minning and producing stuff! Since now the most safe thing to do there is to farm bounty! Check on the eve sov development indices on the map menu! Every time some industry reaches lvl5 someone camp afk in the system.... and everything cools down...

CCP Fix this! there are no production without minerals! So the prices run UP! If there are more minners in null the prices will go down and there will be more fun!

We know you guys are working on it! Also we know that it have to be a destroyer! And we know that the sooner you release it the better!!! Start the Sisi Tests asap!!!

There is no such thing as PvE risk in Hisec unless you're an idiot or afk in the middle of an operation.

Do the sales of Player characters figure into your data ?
A ton of isk being traded on characters.

People who are dumb enough to not be able to control dscan will die in null, to stuff that doesn't have cloaks fitted either.
We could just remove local instead, plus dead ships are good for the economy.

aaaaaaahahaha!

FFUuuuuuuuuuuu people who claim incursions cause inflation hahaha....

In the end it was actually 0.0 carebears running anomolies that was causing inflation.

So what this tells me is that nearly 10 trillion isk was paid out to people killing npcs in the safety of hi-sec...

Hell, why even go to 0.0???

None of the above. Which is quite easy to prove.

The first group is downright ... strange. Prices for T1 and T2 items are set by raw material prices, not demand (or only for a very short time period).

obviously un-nerfing anomalies so even the worst scrub alliances could make bank in any 0.0 was a mistake

My guess is that the isk in Eve is not the problem, it's just that the uber rich need more things to spend their isk on other than things that generate more isk for them. High sec needs to go up for sale, player space mansions with big portraits on the side of them, system ownership with the ability to re-name stations etc - nothing that gives any in-game advantage but concrete things that provide Eve immortality for the lucky few. The property equation is missing at the moment, look at what rich people do in real life, construct estates, build statues, put up buildings with their names on - it's all done for prestige rather than profit because when you get to the top of the tree this is the only thing left to buy.