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Seleene
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Posted - 2004.05.24 11:01:00 -
[31]
Since you have to be within 20km of a target to warp scramble it anyway, one of my favorite Raven setups was to use blasters, especially if I'm camping a gate or a station. If I can't spam someone with missiles from under 20km, how the hell am I ever supposed to warp scramble them and then do enough damage to kill them?? 
Arming time? TomB, get a grip.
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T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
Scorpyn
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Posted - 2004.05.24 11:29:00 -
[32]
If the missiles orbit the target ship until the missile is armed this might make some kind of sense...
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Gun Kata
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Posted - 2004.05.24 11:34:00 -
[33]
I hope these chages do not go through. Having a Raven will certainly not be fun.(Whats next on the list? Will we have to warm up our railguns before firing??)
We must remember that these changes at this stage are for testing. And hopefully never make it to TQ. Nice ideas but a little to extreme for my liking.
"I have seen everything now."
"Yeah? Have you seen a man eat his own head?" |
Sorela
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Posted - 2004.05.24 12:02:00 -
[34]
How about you guys not reject the idea just because it's badly implemented? It's on the TEST server afterall. Don't just say "it sucks throw it out" because then the Dev's are going to ignore your points entirely.
Secondly the description doesn't give many details.
1) You say these missiles have an arming time. Do they just explode if they reach the ship before being armed? Or do they chase after the enemy ship untill they are armed then hit it?
2) Have you actually tested it? Is the arming time way to long for battleship vs battleship? Or is it just annoying you because you can't swat cruisers with missiles that were meant for BSvsBS combat?
It may be as simple as just lowering the arming times.
Although personally it sounds like an imperfect solution. The problem with missiles is they don't miss really. The idea behind frigates is that they can maneuver and hence you'll miss when firing at them with battleship weapons ;).
But if you have battleship missiles and they don't miss? Then all the changes they are doing would be defeated.
It'd be nicer to see something like bigger missiles loosing most of their agility and then having them loose lock after overshooting a fast moving frigate.
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.05.24 12:12:00 -
[35]
 Originally by: Claus
With missiles, if you want to hit something close then just reload with something smaller. This still leaves missile-users with more flexibility than turret-users.
Man, you really don't get it, do you?
YOU CAN'T LOAD ANYTHING SMALLER THAN CRUISE MISSILES 
And, by any logics, if I launch a cruise missile againt a battleship that is 2 km away, the missile would first fly 15-20km away into space before it turns around and comes back for the target, hitting it without any problem.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.05.24 12:13:00 -
[36]
I don't think there's anything wrong with this.
Missile launchers as just another type of turret.
With the new stuff on Chaos, large turrets can't hit beans at close range 10-15km, thus forcing people to either put on smartbombs, or high tracking turrets for close range fire against rapidly moving targets.
Why should missiles, which are GUARANTEED to hit their target (unlike a turret gun), not have some penalty at short range? (spare me the Caldari pro-missile whining please, I use missiles too).
Missile boats, like the Raven, aren't going to have much powergrid left after fitting 6x Siege launchers anyway, not enough for 2 large weapons. But they will have a bit of powergrid for a couple of secondary high-tracking turrets, for close in defense.
Just like everybody else. Nothing wrong with secondary armaments. Only fools go for totally big turret ships. Look what happened to the Japanese in WWII. Their ships had inadequate anti-aircraft defenses (their AA guns were inferior in both rate of fire and numbers).
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Razior
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Posted - 2004.05.24 12:13:00 -
[37]
Ever considered that the missiles will follow the target and explode when they have armed themselves? It wont make them worthless closerange, you will just have a extra long hit time. Think about it, You fire your glittering band of missiles at a enemy closeup and they follow the target until they have armed themselfs. The impact will be delayed for the duration of the arming time but when the arming time is up you will hit in the exact same manner as before the patch. Im not saying it is good but im not saying that you should discard the idea if you havent tested it.
And its on the test server to be tested, so go test. then give feedback
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.05.24 12:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Mikelangelo
I don't think there's anything wrong with this.
Missile launchers as just another type of turret.
With the new stuff on Chaos, large turrets can't hit beans at close range 10-15km, thus forcing people to either put on smartbombs, or high tracking turrets for close range fire against rapidly moving targets.
Why should missiles, which are GUARANTEED to hit their target (unlike a turret gun), not have some penalty at short range? (spare me the Caldari pro-missile whining please, I use missiles too).
Missile boats, like the Raven, aren't going to have much powergrid left after fitting 6x Siege launchers anyway, not enough for 2 large weapons. But they will have a bit of powergrid for a couple of secondary high-tracking turrets, for close in defense.
Just like everybody else. Nothing wrong with secondary armaments. Only fools go for totally big turret ships. Look what happened to the Japanese in WWII. Their ships had inadequate anti-aircraft defenses (their AA guns were inferior in both rate of fire and numbers).
Read and think before posting.
The change is obviously to stop cruise missiles from hitting frigates.
Fine.
That's NOT why people are complaining.
People are complaining because this also stops missiles from battleship vs battleship fights.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
John McCreedy
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Posted - 2004.05.24 12:35:00 -
[39]
These changes are going from bad to worse. You're resetting combat back 12 months.
For those of you who say this is good. Stop. Think. This unbalances Caldari Ships so much as to make them utterley useless at close Range. Due to the Caldari Shield Tanking we don't have the luxury of fitting an MWD to stay out of range so all anyone who knows they'll be up against a Caldari BS has to do is fit close range guns and we can kiss our ships goodbye.
This is poorly thought out and as Tank says, implement the agility changes so Cruise Missiles can't hit smaller ships.
Finally, for the love of god, stop making such unnecessary drastic changes to the combat system. Stop rushing them in and allow more time for proper testing to be conducted. All you're doing is alienating a sizeable proportion of your playerbase.
Make a difference
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Judicator
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Posted - 2004.05.24 12:36:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Mikelangelo
I don't think there's anything wrong with this.
Missile launchers as just another type of turret.
With the new stuff on Chaos, large turrets can't hit beans at close range 10-15km, thus forcing people to either put on smartbombs, or high tracking turrets for close range fire against rapidly moving targets.
Why should missiles, which are GUARANTEED to hit their target (unlike a turret gun), not have some penalty at short range? (spare me the Caldari pro-missile whining please, I use missiles too).
Missile boats, like the Raven, aren't going to have much powergrid left after fitting 6x Siege launchers anyway, not enough for 2 large weapons. But they will have a bit of powergrid for a couple of secondary high-tracking turrets, for close in defense.
Just like everybody else. Nothing wrong with secondary armaments. Only fools go for totally big turret ships. Look what happened to the Japanese in WWII. Their ships had inadequate anti-aircraft defenses (their AA guns were inferior in both rate of fire and numbers).
Holy Batman!
Please cancel your clone contract and end yourself. I can imagine it now. Megathron drives up close and personal on a Raven. The Raven pilot desperatly tries to win the fight using his high-tracking 150mm Railguns. The Raven pilot looses.
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bobbins
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Posted - 2004.05.24 12:40:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Gun Kata
I hope these chages do not go through. Having a Raven will certainly not be fun.(Whats next on the list? Will we have to warm up our railguns before firing??)
We must remember that these changes at this stage are for testing. And hopefully never make it to TQ. Nice ideas but a little to extreme for my liking.
Shhhhh! you'll give him ideas 
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StaticW
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Posted - 2004.05.24 13:04:00 -
[42]
Even the Raven has turret slots for a reason ...
if you fit long distance weapons (read siege launchers) you shoudnt expect to take out an interceptor orbiting you with those monsters.
Balance your loadout if you want to go 1on1.
What is next? Apoc pilots who want to mount 8 Tachyons and complain they can't hit anything closer than the sun without 4 Tracking computers??
Sheesh.. Every BS has a field it excels in. If you use it against its original purpose, expect to have to make sacrifices.
that you CAN mount large guns on a BS doesn't necesarily mean that you HAVE TO mount only large guns.
You do more damage with them? fine. So you took all all the lower gears from your cars because in the 5th gear it goes fastest anyways?
Maybe the arming time needs to be finetuned with flight speed etc., but I can say: good change.
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fras
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Posted - 2004.05.24 13:10:00 -
[43]
Edited by: fras on 24/05/2004 13:13:58
I agree this is a bad idea for the reasons ppl have already mentioned.
Missiles need a close range agility nerf, not an arming distance.
Their effectiveness against battleships at close ranges need to be offset by a lower DOT than say a mega with blasters or a tempest with 800's.
atm i'm not sure this is really the case with torps and even cruise to a cirtain extent - but no, arming distances are bad 
Whats a typhoon supposed to do with 4x autcannons and 4 launchers???
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.05.24 13:20:00 -
[44]
Ridiculous change.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.05.24 13:32:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Nafri on 24/05/2004 13:45:34
how should i able to pirate a enemy ship now?!? trying to kill the BS with heavy missles?? thats the most stupid idea ever 
when this comes on im out of this , i wont bother myself to train another 4 month to fly a Megathron
just saw that heavies have the same arming time, so no use to switch to them, cool tryint to use rockets now
Wanna fly with me?
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Grimster
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Posted - 2004.05.24 13:34:00 -
[46]
Here's a whacky idea, leave everything as it is!
Balance is pretty much there, to play with things too much is going to upset most people, of all types of ship.
For missiles, stop ppl opening fire on non-war declared corps >0.4 - that'll take care of your kestrel gankers.
For guns, leave them, the new falloff is just too much.
For MWD, what's the problem with that? Oh, forgot, people don't like frigs orbiting them
Arming time I guess is to help the frigate pilots who ain't gonna survive a missile attack because the MWD is gonna be nerfed - just leave stuff alone and all is well.
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Matanga
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Posted - 2004.05.24 13:36:00 -
[47]
Originally by: John McCreedy
For those of you who say this is good. Stop. Think. This unbalances Caldari Ships so much as to make them utterley useless at close Range. Due to the Caldari Shield Tanking we don't have the luxury of fitting an MWD to stay out of range so all anyone who knows they'll be up against a Caldari BS has to do is fit close range guns and we can kiss our ships goodbye.
Not to mention that Caldari Bs are slower and have higher mass than other ships.
So trying to increase the distance to the target is not an option.
And,as their main weapon are missiles,Smart bombs are useles
Quote:
This is poorly thought out and as Tank says, implement the agility changes so Cruise Missiles can't hit smaller ships.
Finally, for the love of god, stop making such unnecessary drastic changes to the combat system. Stop rushing them in and allow more time for proper testing to be conducted. All you're doing is alienating a sizeable proportion of your playerbase.
You are totally right (I can't even get to Chaos to test and when I can there's lag and training and fitting don't work  )
"ÆIn accordance with the principles of double-think it does not matter if the war is not real. For when it is, victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, but it is meant to be continuous.Æö
George Orwell ô1984ö |
Nafri
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Posted - 2004.05.24 13:36:00 -
[48]
Originally by: StaticW
Even the Raven has turret slots for a reason ...
if you fit long distance weapons (read siege launchers) you shoudnt expect to take out an interceptor orbiting you with those monsters.
Balance your loadout if you want to go 1on1.
What is next? Apoc pilots who want to mount 8 Tachyons and complain they can't hit anything closer than the sun without 4 Tracking computers??
Sheesh.. Every BS has a field it excels in. If you use it against its original purpose, expect to have to make sacrifices.
that you CAN mount large guns on a BS doesn't necesarily mean that you HAVE TO mount only large guns.
You do more damage with them? fine. So you took all all the lower gears from your cars because in the 5th gear it goes fastest anyways?
Maybe the arming time needs to be finetuned with flight speed etc., but I can say: good change.
cool now i should try to kill another BS with 250ers on my raven? , that need no comment,
THIS THING IS NOT ABOUT KILLING FRIGS, ITS ABOUT KILLING ENEMY BS! ALL PIRATE PVP IS AT UNDER 20km cause otherwise the enemy would just fly away
Wanna fly with me?
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Man'corr
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Posted - 2004.05.24 13:37:00 -
[49]
So if an enemy ints is webbed, totally dead in the water, does that mean a raven battleship driver can suck icecream instead...................
since he will have 2 soandso weapons to actually use on that guy?
just because his torps simply dont feel like blowing up right now.....................
pretty retarded, even 1400mm howitzers would rip through the lil guy, giving you the satisfaction of having the roght amount of webbers fitted...........and raven pilots can just go home..................
All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk
The 3rd turret is the Malediction is missing. Plz make as much noise as possible so that CCP gets us a remedy for that, possibly before X-Mas this year. |
Khe Zen'al'Zar
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Posted - 2004.05.24 13:57:00 -
[50]
if you dont want heavier missiles to hit frigs, then give the heavy missiles crap agility, so if if you orbit at wery close range at a decent speed, the missile will just go in a wider and wider circle until it explode, altough the light missiles got great agility and will be able to hit the frig
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Jorlin
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Posted - 2004.05.24 14:21:00 -
[51]
hmm...maybe the problem with agility is, it's affecting the rate of acceleration also.
imagine a Cruise missile speeding up like a webbed industrial...
no police, no summons, no courts of law;
no proper procedure, no rules of war;
no mitigating circumstance;
no lawyers fees, no second chance! |
Nafri
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Posted - 2004.05.24 14:45:00 -
[52]
what about giving caldari special close range anti BS missles ^^
Wanna fly with me?
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Torment
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Posted - 2004.05.24 14:50:00 -
[53]
Well as a blaster-thron pilot i couldnt stop laughing on chaos when i got to 5k in on a Raven and found that he wasnt hitting me know more,we both thought it was a bug or something.
There should be some negative for missiles at close range but this is to much,The Raven will just simply die at close range.
And this is coming from a Megathron pilot as i said.
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StaticW
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Posted - 2004.05.24 14:57:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Nafri
cool now i should try to kill another BS with 250ers on my raven? , that need no comment,
THIS THING IS NOT ABOUT KILLING FRIGS, ITS ABOUT KILLING ENEMY BS! ALL PIRATE PVP IS AT UNDER 20km cause otherwise the enemy would just fly away
And you are sure learning to fly a raven for solo pirating was a smart move in the first place?
Either learn to work in a team with smaller ships doing the webbifing etc. and move yourself into optimal or join a group who knows how to do it ;-)
Im not sure if you noticed, but there is this drifting towards "specialisation" in eve. You won't be able to do everything yourself.
If all Pirate PvP is being done under 20km you really would have been better off to train for a megathron, mate!
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.05.24 15:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: StaticW
Originally by: Nafri
cool now i should try to kill another BS with 250ers on my raven? , that need no comment,
THIS THING IS NOT ABOUT KILLING FRIGS, ITS ABOUT KILLING ENEMY BS! ALL PIRATE PVP IS AT UNDER 20km cause otherwise the enemy would just fly away
And you are sure learning to fly a raven for solo pirating was a smart move in the first place?
Either learn to work in a team with smaller ships doing the webbifing etc. and move yourself into optimal or join a group who knows how to do it ;-)
Im not sure if you noticed, but there is this drifting towards "specialisation" in eve. You won't be able to do everything yourself.
If all Pirate PvP is being done under 20km you really would have been better off to train for a megathron, mate!
mhh well you really dont get my point, its not about the way i play this game,
its about this little change makes my caldari BS useless for my favourite style of gaming for no real reasons. You every faced a Raven at 20km? it was a pretty nice ship for close range combats 
and your not really saying anything to the topic
Wanna fly with me?
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Grimster
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Posted - 2004.05.24 15:04:00 -
[56]
Originally by: StaticW
And you are sure learning to fly a raven for solo pirating was a smart move in the first place?
Either learn to work in a team with smaller ships doing the webbifing etc. and move yourself into optimal or join a group who knows how to do it ;-)
Ah! I really do agree with the mixed bag fleet comment, which is fine until you look at the rest of the upcoming changes. See my addition to this thread.
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StaticW
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Posted - 2004.05.24 15:08:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Torment
Well as a blaster-thron pilot i couldnt stop laughing on chaos when i got to 5k in on a Raven and found that he wasnt hitting me know more,we both thought it was a bug or something.
There should be some negative for missiles at close range but this is to much,The Raven will just simply die at close range.
And this is coming from a Megathron pilot as i said.
Knowing when to run and when to fight would help too.
Seems like caldari ships will get their true calling now. As Ships to be used in groups and mixed fleets.
:-)
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StaticW
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Posted - 2004.05.24 15:19:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Nafri
mhh well you really dont get my point, its not about the way i play this game,
its about this little change makes my caldari BS useless for my favourite style of gaming for no real reasons. You every faced a Raven at 20km? it was a pretty nice ship for close range combats
and your not really saying anything to the topic
Hm? Its not about the way you lliked to play the game, but for your favourit style of gaming?
yes, I faced a raven, and yes, it did nice damage, but missile boats were designed for long range combat in the first place (few armies would use cruise missiles to hit the next town along the road, now would they? ;) )
And I cant wait for the outcry when finally mining lasers will be removed from Battle ships and put to mining cruisers or whatnot :-)
Im not adding to the topic? Hm, maybe, but at least im not advertising pink panties , hehe ;-)
btw: anyone noticed all these changes might even help to enhance gameplay? Once you get used to it, and adapt it will allow for more diversified layouts, longer battles and.. ah well, seems like im like talking to walls here ;-) Lets see what the patch brings. until then you are welcome to test setups against me on chaos :)
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.05.24 15:32:00 -
[59]
Indeed I think this is good changes, mostly. Still sucks for the raven pilots who aren't gonna stand a chance solo anymore.
From best/second solo ship to possibly the worst.
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Grut
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Posted - 2004.05.24 15:55:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Grut on 24/05/2004 15:56:38
Originally by: Nafri
what about giving caldari special close range anti BS missles ^^
I though that was what torps were, cause they're useless at everything else
Mostly harmless |
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